[Swiss Bob]

Originally posted by Fyre4ce:
Obviously I'm not getting through here.

Hot oil = low viscosity

Cold oil = high viscosity

(If you do not understand what I mean by viscosity then ask me to explain.)

You're getting through.. ..slowly.

Please explain what you mean by "viscosity".

[Kilbey]

Originally posted by Fyre4ce:
Someone else said that oil does not circulate in the engine for the first 10 minutes. You then agreed with them that it takes a little while for the oil to circulate. OK, fine, you never said 10 minutes.

Wrong! I didn't agree with them. I disagreed with Cash's idiotic claims and FUD.

I never said the pressure and flow rate would be the same. But the flow rate will be non-zero! The oil will circulate!! You said it won't circulate!! You are wrong!

Yeah, the oil pressure will be higher when the oil is cold. The bearings also won't work as well. I already said this. But the engine will not run dry, as you claimed.

Bull sh1t. Never said it. You are twisting this arguement quite a bit. I NEVER claimed and engine would run dry if it had oil in it.

Your arguemenative style could use a little improvement. I quote resources from valid web sites and you spout off your feeling with no data to back your claims up.

[Kilbey]

A rich [edited:said lean] mixture ALWAYS run/burns cooler. It burns less effectivly because it is an unbalanced air/fuel ratio. All of the fuel does not burn cleanly thereby less heat is created. Try lighting a cutting torch and turning the fuel mixture high and the oxygen low.

Originally posted by Fyre4ce:
The issue of lean vs. rich, is as I said more complicated than "hot" vs. "cold." A lean mixture poses more of a threat to exhaust valves than a rich one, because of the reasons I already stated,

What were those reasons again, I think I missed em.

but I don't think there would be much of a difference as far as getting the coolant up to temperature. With a rich mixture, more fuel is being burned so more heat is being generated, and because the flame speed is higher

More fuel is being burned, but less of a complete combustion hence lower temps.

http://www.type2.com/library/exhaust/emissio.htm

Quote:
"A super-lean mixture burns very hot and produces a lot of NOx. The richer the mix, the cooler. So for best results a perfectly adjusted mixture is used. This used to be accomplished by lea... "

http://autos.yahoo.com/repair/results/ques041.html

Quote:
"Engine overheating. A hot engine is more likely to suffer spark knock when it is under load than one which runs at normal temperature. Overheating can be caused by a low coolant level, a defective fan clutch, too small a fan, the wrong thermostat or a stuck thermostat, a weak water pump, a buildup of deposits in the radiator or cooling system, a bad fan clutch or electric cooling fan that doesn't work.
Lean fuel mixture. Rich fuel mixtures resist detonation while lean ones do not. Air leaks in vacuum lines, intake manifold gaskets, carburetor or throttle body gaskets, or fuel injector O-rings can admit extra air into the engine and lean out the fuel mixture. Lean mixtures can also be caused by dirty fuel injectors, dirty carburetor jets, or low fuel pressure.

more of that heat would be absorbed into the coolant. If you tried to warm an engine up by running it lean (which admittedly I've never tried) I think you would find that it would actually be less effective than running it rich, although I think the difference would be small.

Lean=hot and Rich=cool. It is very simple. The difference is very substantial. Have you never tuned a carb?

All well and good about piston scuff. It's entirely consistant with what I said. If you start the engine cold and rev it up really high you can damage it. I don't see how this is supports your assertion that idling is "about the worst thing you can do to your car."

O.K., I'll restate it. Other than cold start up, about the worst thing you can do is idle your car. I'd still like a source for your beliefs. Mine come from a university education and real world employment at an experimental engine research facility.

Final advice. You really never should pick cash's sides in an arguement. He is rarely right.

[Kilbey]

Originally posted by imaxxedout69:
Cold oil does not do a good of job. Cold oil is 'thicker' and does not protect the engine's parts as well. HOWEVER, it is circulated almost instantaneously. Cold oil IS circulated. Think of it this way: If it wasn't circulated, how the F*CK would the oil ever warm up?

Oh yeah, you're a complete idiot.

But wait, in my terms that means get bent.

- Ca$h

This is about the stupidest thing I have read yet. You think the oil gets hot due to circulation?!?!

Oil in the engine gets hot from one major and one minor factor.
1.MAJOR: fuel combustion heats the engine walls, pistons, head, and exhast manifold and conduction of these engine parts heats the oil.
2. minor: friction from the force of the oil pump causes the oil to heat up.

[Kilbey]

I think this about sums it all up:

http://home.att.net/~ferrari/MISC1.htm


"There seem to be as many opinions on warming up a Ferrari as there are Hondas produced in a given year. When I first got my car, I used to follow the let-it-idle-for-5-minutes-until-the-temp-gauge-hits-the-first-mark dictum, having read dire warnings to do so in various books like "Ferrari Guide to Performance," etc. I was eventually dissuaded from that practice by four factors:

(1) an increasing number of automotive authorities are starting to point out that idling an engine for long periods is just about the worst thing you can do to it, much more so when it's cold;

(2) the lack of support for this practice in the owner's manual;

(3) Bob Norwood's advice to "just jump in the #@$@ thing and go," and

(4) yes, it certainly is an incredible PIA to sit in your car for 3-5 minutes every morning waiting for it to warm up.

What I do nowadays is start the engine, give it about 30-45 seconds or so for the (carbureted) idle to smooth out, and then drive away GENTLY, trying not to exceed 3,000 RPM until the water temperature comes up. I don't drive aggressively (> ~4500 RPM or > ~65 MPH) until the oil temperature gauge starts to move, which usually takes 4-5 miles. For the same distance, I either double-clutch when shifting into 2nd, or I just go straight from 1st to 3rd, to avoid complaints from the 2nd-gear synchro. To save wear and tear on the choke lever and linkage, I don't use the choke at all except on very cold/damp mornings when it's hard to start the engine reliably without it. ..."

[nonhuman]

Originally posted by Kilbey:
A lean mixture ALWAYS run/burns cooler.

Quote:
"A super-lean mixture burns very hot and produces a lot of NOx. The richer the mix, the cooler. So for best results a perfectly adjusted mixture is used. This used to be accomplished by lea...

Lean=hot and Rich=cool. It is very simple.

Apparently not... I assume you meant hotter in the first instance?

This is about the stupidest thing I have read yet. You think the oil gets hot due to circulation?!?!

Oil in the engine gets hot from one major and one minor factor.
1.MAJOR: fuel combustion heats the engine walls, pistons, head, and exhast manifold and conduction of these engine parts heats the oil.
2. minor: friction from the force of the oil pump causes the oild to heat up.

You're right, the oil is heated from the energy released by the fuel combustion in the engine. However, if the oil doesn't circulate through the engine, how is it supposed to get hot? Ca$h is right, you need oil circulation in order to get the oil heated to the proper temperature (in a reasonable amount of time, it would heat if it wasn't being circulated, it would just take a long time, of course you have to ignore the fact that the engine would be running without oil this whole time).

[Kilbey]

Originally posted by nonhuman:
Apparently not... I assume you meant hotter in the first instance?

Yeah, that's what I meant. I fixed the post.

Originally posted by nonhuman:

You're right, the oil is heated from the energy released by the fuel combustion in the engine. However, if the oil doesn't circulate through the engine, how is it supposed to get hot? Ca$h is right, you need oil circulation in order to get the oil heated to the proper temperature (in a reasonable amount of time, it would heat if it wasn't being circulated, it would just take a long time, of course you have to ignore the fact that the engine would be running without oil this whole time).

I never said oil doesn't circulate at low temps. You are confusing me with someone else. The oil is circulating the moment the starter is activated and is turning over the engine. Cash is slightly right, but not completely right. He never stated what you did. If oil only circulated without a heat source, it would take a long time for the friction in the oil pump to heat the oil to any high temps. Here's what he said:

Cold oil does not do a good of job. Cold oil is 'thicker' and does not protect the engine's parts as well. HOWEVER, it is circulated almost instantaneously. Cold oil IS circulated. Think of it this way: If it wasn't circulated, how the F*CK would the oil ever warm up?

Oh yeah, you're a complete idiot.

But wait, in my terms that means get bent.

- Ca$h

And at the end he added an verbal name calling attack without fully explaining himself. This is very typical of his posts.

[nonhuman]

Originally posted by Kilbey:
I never said oil doesn't circulate at low temps.

I think I just misunderstood you (and you me, to an extent). You said "This is about the stupidest thing I have read yet. You think the oil gets hot due to circulation?!?!" which I interpreted to mean that oil circulation was unrelated to the oil heating up. My point was that without circulation oil wouldn't heat up, so the oil does indeed get hot due to circulation (though it's not the circulation itself that causes the heating).

[Kilbey]

Originally posted by nonhuman:
I think I just misunderstood you (and you me, to an extent). You said "This is about the stupidest thing I have read yet. You think the oil gets hot due to circulation?!?!" which I interpreted to mean that oil circulation was unrelated to the oil heating up. My point was that without circulation oil wouldn't heat up, so the oil does indeed get hot due to circulation (though it's not the circulation itself that causes the heating).

If I wasn't clear, It's the two factors combined to bring the oil up to proper operating temp. Circulation and combustion heat.

Unrelated but informative from the Quaker State web site:

http://www.quakerstate.com/pages/carcare/whattoknow.asp

Midway down the page:

" Second, thinner motor oil is essential for easy starting, particularly in cold weather, and for proper lubrication once the engine starts. Today's smaller engines have smaller clearances and tighter tolerances between moving parts, and there have been some instances where camshaft damage has occurred because of inadequate lubrication with higher viscosity grades in colder weather. Thinner oils, such as SAE 5W-30, will flow faster than heavier motor oils during start-up and initial engine operation and will help protect the engine from excessive wear. Multigrade oil will also offer the same high temperature protection as single grade motor oil. Always check your vehicle owner's manual to select the proper viscosity grade based on the expected temperature range."

[Kilbey]

Originally posted by Fyre4ce:

**snip**
I completely contest your assertion that idling is "about the hardest thing on a car." Running the engine at high RPM, especially with cold oil, is bad for the engine. Answer me this: If you took two identical car engines and placed them on dynamometers, took one engine and let it idle with no load, and ran the other at 80% maximum RPM at 80% load, which would fail first? Don't even try to tell me the idling one.

**snip**

Oops, missed this one

Contrary to expected results, The idling one. This test was proven time and time again in the test lab where I worked. We had 3 "endurance" engine test cells with dynamometers and consistently the engines lasted well over a million simulated miles at 5k RPM. We had another test cell with 4 engines running at idle testing belt tensioners. Those engines only lasted 100k to 200k miles. I changed 10 times more engines in the idling cells than I did in the endurance or oil comsumption test cells.

[Fyre4ce]

Originally posted by Swiss Bob:
You're getting through.. ..slowly.

Please explain what you mean by "viscosity".

I'll spare you the technical definition of viscosity, but basically it has to do with how "thick" a fluid is. The thicker it is, the more "viscous" it is, and that means it has a higher viscosity. The runnier it is, the less viscous it is.

Air is a fluid, and it has a particularly low viscosity. Water has a higher viscosity. Pancake syrup is more viscous still. Tar has a very high viscosity.

Obviously, viscosity changes with temperature. In general, when you heat up a fluid its viscosity goes down.

That's what I was saying about oil. When it's cold it has a higher viscosity. As the oil gets up to its operating temperature, the viscosity goes down to where the bearings like it.

[Fyre4ce]

Originally posted by Kilbey:
A rich [edited:said lean] mixture ALWAYS run/burns cooler. It burns less effectivly because it is an unbalanced air/fuel ratio. All of the fuel does not burn cleanly thereby less heat is created. Try lighting a cutting torch and turning the fuel mixture high and the oxygen low.



What were those reasons again, I think I missed em.



More fuel is being burned, but less of a complete combustion hence lower temps.

http://www.type2.com/library/exhaust/emissio.htm

Quote:
"A super-lean mixture burns very hot and produces a lot of NOx. The richer the mix, the cooler. So for best results a perfectly adjusted mixture is used. This used to be accomplished by lea... "

http://autos.yahoo.com/repair/results/ques041.html

Quote:
"Engine overheating. A hot engine is more likely to suffer spark knock when it is under load than one which runs at normal temperature. Overheating can be caused by a low coolant level, a defective fan clutch, too small a fan, the wrong thermostat or a stuck thermostat, a weak water pump, a buildup of deposits in the radiator or cooling system, a bad fan clutch or electric cooling fan that doesn't work.
Lean fuel mixture. Rich fuel mixtures resist detonation while lean ones do not. Air leaks in vacuum lines, intake manifold gaskets, carburetor or throttle body gaskets, or fuel injector O-rings can admit extra air into the engine and lean out the fuel mixture. Lean mixtures can also be caused by dirty fuel injectors, dirty carburetor jets, or low fuel pressure.



Lean=hot and Rich=cool. It is very simple. The difference is very substantial. Have you never tuned a carb?



O.K., I'll restate it. Other than cold start up, about the worst thing you can do is idle your car. I'd still like a source for your beliefs. Mine come from a university education and real world employment at an experimental engine research facility.

Final advice. You really never should pick cash's sides in an arguement. He is rarely right.

Damn, I'm ****ing tired, I really need to get to bed. But before I do I'll give you a question to ponder: I'll have more in the morning.

You say that a lean mixture burns hotter. Fine. So, the combustion chamber temperature is hotter. Therefore, the pressure will be higher. So the engine torque should be higher as well! But, as we all know, peak torque for gasoline is around lambda = 0.9, which is RICH, and NOT lean. Why to engines make more torque running rich if they run cool rich and hot lean?

EDIT: one more thing. The only carb I've ever tuned was in a chainsaw; never anything like a 4-bbl. But I have tuned many an injected engine. Thankfully I've never burned exhast valves by running lean but I have seen some scary high EGT's. But in my extensive experience (and I think anyone here who's ever played with an engine will back me up) engines make MORE POWER running on the rich side.

[Kilbey]

Originally posted by Fyre4ce:
Damn, I'm ****ing tired, I really need to get to bed. But before I do I'll give you a question to ponder: I'll have more in the morning.

You say that a lean mixture burns hotter. Fine. So, the combustion chamber temperature is hotter. Therefore, the pressure will be higher. So the engine torque should be higher as well! But, as we all know, peak torque for gasoline is around lambda = 0.9, which is RICH, and NOT lean. Why to engines make more torque running rich if they run cool rich and hot lean?

EDIT: one more thing. The only carb I've ever tuned was in a chainsaw; never anything like a 4-bbl. But I have tuned many an injected engine. Thankfully I've never burned exhast valves by running lean but I have seen some scary high EGT's. But in my extensive experience (and I think anyone here who's ever played with an engine will back me up) engines make MORE POWER running on the rich side.

Yes, a lean mixture does create more compression. However, that does not mean it makes more torque. A lean mixture burns unevenly and early in the combustion chamber causing detonation in the cylinder. It preignites before the spark plug burns it and therefore the piston is not at TDC. If the piston is not TDC then it actually gets some force opposing the piston in it's rotation. A perfect example is if you have ever had a engine knock while going up a hill you would notice a significant loss of power.

A rich mixture creates more power because it burns at the proper piston position in the crank cycle. The fuel mixture burns more evenly and in a controlled pattern in the combustion chamber. Sometimes bumps and notches are added to the piston or head to create a more even ignition patern in the chamber. I am sure you have seen this.

A lean mixture does more than burn up exhaust valves. That is only a slightly lean mixture. A very lean mixture will melt pistons, burn spark plugs and possibly warp the exhaust manifold and head due to different heating patterns of the block.

A rich mixutre might not burn all of the fuel in the combustion chamber and allow it to travel to the catalytic converter unburned. If fuel reaches the converter unburned it will melt the mesh in the converter and plug up the exhaust system. I am not sure if it is simply the fuel in the converter that melts the mesh or if the fuel burns there and that melts it. I knew at one time but now I forgot.

[Fyre4ce]

Originally posted by Kilbey:
Yes, a lean mixture does create more compression. However, that does not mean it makes more torque. A lean mixture burns unevenly and early in the combustion chamber causing detonation in the cylinder. It preignites before the spark plug burns it and therefore the piston is not at TDC. If the piston is not TDC then it actually gets some force opposing the piston in it's rotation. A perfect example is if you have ever had a engine knock while going up a hill you would notice a significant loss of power.

A rich mixture creates more power because it burns at the proper piston position in the crank cycle. The fuel mixture burns more evenly and in a controlled pattern in the combustion chamber. Sometimes bumps and notches are added to the piston or head to create a more even ignition patern in the chamber. I am sure you have seen this.

A lean mixture does more than burn up exhaust valves. That is only a slightly lean mixture. A very lean mixture will melt pistons, burn spark plugs and possibly warp the exhaust manifold and head due to different heating patterns of the block.

A rich mixutre might not burn all of the fuel in the combustion chamber and allow it to travel to the catalytic converter unburned. If fuel reaches the converter unburned it will melt the mesh in the converter and plug up the exhaust system. I am not sure if it is simply the fuel in the converter that melts the mesh or if the fuel burns there and that melts it. I knew at one time but now I forgot.

First of all, based on the length and complexity of your post I hope you will retract your statement that "lean=hot rich=cool. It's that simple." It's NOT that simple. There's more stuff going on there than just flame temperature (which is what I said at the beginning).

Also, your post seems to assume that the engine is experiencing lean detonation. This doesn't have to happen. One can usually run lambda = 1.1-1.2 safely without experiencing detonation. But there definietly is a drop in torque going from lambda = 0.9 to 1.1, and it's not caused by detonation. There is also a rise in EGT.

After a little back-and-forth, let me repeat what I said earlier:

"A lean mixture burns slower, so the mixture can still be burning (or at least hotter) when it gets ejected from the cylinder. Since at this time the exhaust valve is not in contact with the head, it pretty much has no way to reject the heat. That's why running lean can melt exhaust valves. That's also why you see higher EGT's with leaner mixtures. And there are also cooling effects from the vaporization and the dissociation of extra fuel in a leaner mixture.

"Also, the excess oxygen in the combustion chamber can act as a cutting torch and oxidize all kinds of stuff in there (including the plugs) and can leave quite a mess. That's what causes plugs to foul white when you're running lean."

That is what will happen with a slightly lean mixture. Since the burn is happening over a greater number of crank degrees, the engine is making less torque. And since the exhaust gas is hotter the EGT's go up and the exhaust valves get hotter. Also, due to the extra oxygen, the plugs will foul white from oxidation.

In a very lean mixture detonation will occur. The quench layer will be disrupted during the later stage of the compression stroke, heat transfer into the piston increases, and the piston melts.

Also, you failed to mention that hydrocarbon emissions will go up with a mixture that's either rich or excessively lean. HC's are lowest at about lambda = 1.1 and go up in either direction.

So, I still stand by everything I've said. I think this whole debate got started when someone suggested warming up an engine by running it lean, and I said that's not a good idea because it's not that a lean mixture burns hotter, but it's where that heat is going. And in a lean mixture that heat goes out the exhaust. Rich mixtures burn faster, pressure rises quickly, torque is high, EGT's are low.

EDIT: Quick thing to add. I found a website that corroborates my claim about flame propogation speed: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasol...section-1.html Go look at the section on A/F ratio.

[imaxxedout69]

Originally posted by Kilbey:
This is about the stupidest thing I have read yet. You think the oil gets hot due to circulation?!?!

Oil in the engine gets hot from one major and one minor factor.
1.MAJOR: fuel combustion heats the engine walls, pistons, head, and exhast manifold and conduction of these engine parts heats the oil.
2. minor: friction from the force of the oil pump causes the oil to heat up.

That's a given you stupid ****. But in order for the oil to get warm, it has to be circulating around the engine. If you took out the oil pump, and the oil no longer circulated, you'd still be able to start and run the engine (for a short time) and the oil would NOT get hot, because it is not circulating. The oil pan does not get warm by itself, the oil has to get warm by the engine RUNNING.

You're a dumbf*ck.

- Ca$h

[Swiss Bob]

Originally posted by Fyre4ce:
That's what I was saying about oil. When it's cold it has a higher viscosity. As the oil gets up to its operating temperature, the viscosity goes down to where the bearings like it.

Ok.. I think I follow you so far. Why exactly don't the bearings like the cold oil? I mean, what physical properties present in cold oil mean that it doesn't do the job as well as hot oil?

(I got the viscosity bit. What I mean is: what physical properties present in high viscosity oil mean that it doesn't do the job as well as low viscosity oil?)

I'm learning... ...slowly.

[Fyre4ce]

Originally posted by imaxxedout69:
That's a given you stupid ****. But in order for the oil to get warm, it has to be circulating around the engine. If you took out the oil pump, and the oil no longer circulated, you'd still be able to start and run the engine (for a short time) and the oil would NOT get hot, because it is not circulating. The oil pan does not get warm by itself, the oil has to get warm by the engine RUNNING.

You're a dumbf*ck.

- Ca$h

Certainly not a "dumbf*ck" but definitely misguided about certain points. Still no reply to my last post.

[imaxxedout69]

Originally posted by Swiss Bob:
I'm learning... ...slowly.

Understatement.

Okay, lets say you have a screen door laying on its side. Now, on one end of the screen door you pour maple syrup. On the other end you pour rubbing alcohol. Which substance gets through the screen first? Which one can go through all those tiny squares faster?

The alcohol. Why? Lower viscosity. Think of an engine. All those moving parts. All those extremely tiny clearances between things. Now, you have sludgy COLD oil, or hot, really liquidy oil. Which one is going to get to those bearings faster?

- Ca$h

[Fyre4ce]

Originally posted by Swiss Bob:
Ok.. I think I follow you so far. Why exactly don't the bearings like the cold oil? I mean, what physical properties present in cold oil mean that it doesn't do the job as well as hot oil?

(I got the viscosity bit. What I mean is: what physical properties present in high viscosity oil mean that it doesn't do the job as well as low viscosity oil?)

I'm learning... ...slowly.

The bearings don't like the cold oil as much because of the film thickness. As I said the bearing puts a very thin film of oil between the shaft and the bearing, and the shaft spins with very little friction and (ideally) no metal-to-metal contact.

Now, the film of oil is very thin, and very precisely sized. When an engine is being rebuilt, great care needs to be taken to ensure that the clearences in the bearing (where the film of oil forms) are exactly the right size. If the clearence is too small or too big the bearing will not work properly because the oil film will not be the right size.

Now, different viscosities have different optimum film sizes. I believe it's the case that the higher the viscosity, the thicker the film should ideally be.

The bearings are designed from the factory to work best with hot (low viscosity oil) because that's what they get most of the time. However, when the engine is just started up the oil is cold. So the viscosity is higher. And, the clearences in the bearings are no longer the optimum size. So the bearing does not work as well as it would with hot oil. It's not a big deal if the engine is kept at low RPM because the loads on the bearings (which are mostly inertial) will stay low. But, if the engine is revved up really high with cold oil, the oil film in the bearings won't be able to hold and the bearings will wear.

If you would like further information than this, I would suggest you go to a public library and do some research on hydrodynamic bearings.

[Swiss Bob]

Originally posted by Fyre4ce:
The bearings don't like the cold oil as much because of the film thickness. As I said the bearing puts a very thin film of oil between the shaft and the bearing, and the shaft spins with very little friction and (ideally) no metal-to-metal contact.

Now, the film of oil is very thin, and very precisely sized. When an engine is being rebuilt, great care needs to be taken to ensure that the clearences in the bearing (where the film of oil forms) are exactly the right size. If the clearence is too small or too big the bearing will not work properly because the oil film will not be the right size.

Now, different viscosities have different optimum film sizes. I believe it's the case that the higher the viscosity, the thicker the film should ideally be.

The bearings are designed from the factory to work best with hot (low viscosity oil) because that's what they get most of the time. However, when the engine is just started up the oil is cold. So the viscosity is higher. And, the clearences in the bearings are no longer the optimum size. So the bearing does not work as well as it would with hot oil. It's not a big deal if the engine is kept at low RPM because the loads on the bearings (which are mostly inertial) will stay low. But, if the engine is revved up really high with cold oil, the oil film in the bearings won't be able to hold and the bearings will wear.

Fyre, I believe you explained this a few posts back. This appears to be a "how". I'd like you to explain the "why" if you would please.

What properties does a lower viscosity oil have than a higher viscosity oil? Why doesn't the cold viscous oil form the correct film on the bearings? How is it different from the lower viscosity warm oil in respect to its affect on the bearings?

[Fyre4ce]

Originally posted by Swiss Bob:
Fyre, I believe you explained this a few posts back. This appears to be a "how". I'd like you to explain the "why" if you would please.

What properties does a lower viscosity oil have than a higher viscosity oil? Why doesn't the cold viscous oil form the correct film on the bearings? How is it different from the lower viscosity warm oil in respect to its affect on the bearings?

I would suggest you take a course in fluid mechanics.

[Demonhood]

make the pain stop!


oh wait, i have that power!

neato!


exclamations!!!