[mark2]

I write a lot and always look for tools that might be useful.
Right now I am trying the Inspiration demo, and I recently found an old copy of MORE that works great in Classic. I also bought Mellel and I like it a lot (more than AppleWorks 6 ro MS Weird).

I wanted to try out Omni Outliner, until I found out that it uses the internet to connect with Omni as one uses the program. If it does this without the user knowing it, I would have big problems with that, as a pricacy issue.

This may be harmless, but with so much spyware in use by software companies and distributors, it's worth asking about. I'd avoid any software that connected automatically, if I knew about it.

Can anyone explain, in plain English, why Omni Outliner would have to do this. And is there a way to stop it, if you choose to? Seems like it could be a useful program, but...is it worth it.

[Lew]

Preferences => Update

Set it to check for updates manually

[cpac]

yep. OO's just checking to see if there's a newer version available. You can turn it off if you want.

Most software these days has a "check for updates" feature, and about half the time it's on by default...

[Rickster]

Hmm... since we have automatic update checking on by default, maybe we should put a warning of such on our download pages so we don't scare anybody.

Unlike some other software update schemes, ours doesn't send any information about your machine and software to the server. All it does is download an XML property list file from our server which says what the latest version of each of our apps is, and then use client-side logic to determine whether your version is up to date. (Many other services work by sending your version number to the server and the server telling you whether you need an update.)

[Sharky K.]

Originally posted by Rickster:
Hmm... since we have automatic update checking on by default, maybe we should put a warning of such on our download pages so we don't scare anybody.

Unlike some other software update schemes, ours doesn't send any information about your machine and software to the server. All it does is download an XML property list file from our server which says what the latest version of each of our apps is, and then use client-side logic to determine whether your version is up to date. (Many other services work by sending your version number to the server and the server telling you whether you need an update.)

I would turn it off with all OmniApps by default if I were OmniGroup.

[ratlater]

Originally posted by Sharky K.:
I would turn it off with all OmniApps by default if I were OmniGroup.

I think it should be on by default. It's the easiest way to find updates, and unless your an internet geek you won't find updates because you won't check versiontracker/macupdate all the time. Having it on by default makes it easy for the OG to make sure their users are aware of new version.

Also, it doesn't send any information at all about your machine, so it isn't doing anything bad at all. A warning might be nice, but not really necessary.

-matt

[Sharky K.]

Originally posted by ratlater:
I think it should be on by default. It's the easiest way to find updates, and unless your an internet geek you won't find updates because you won't check versiontracker/macupdate all the time. Having it on by default makes it easy for the OG to make sure their users are aware of new version.

Also, it doesn't send any information at all about your machine, so it isn't doing anything bad at all. A warning might be nice, but not really necessary.

-matt

imagine people use modem and have all sorts of applications installed that have auto-update -(search) turned on by default. And don't know this "feature"

As a non-internet-geek as you say it. you just want software to work and do not care if you have the latest version.

[MrBS]

Originally posted by Sharky K.:
imagine people use modem and have all sorts of applications installed that have auto-update -(search) turned on by default. And don't know this "feature"

As a non-internet-geek as you say it. you just want software to work and do not care if you have the latest version.

I think even in the day of 2400 baud modems one packet per day per app would be pretty bearable.

A major part of the upgrades is bugfixes, and they also introduce extra features. So getting any app to work (well) involves keeping it up to date.

Mentioning it on the download page would probably be a good idea, but turning it off by default would make a lot of people miss a lot of bug fixes and new features they would want to have.

~BS

[cpac]

the best option might be a dialog that pops up the first time you run the app (which provides a checkbox next to something like "automatically check for updates on launch? (no personal information about this computer will be sent out)")

[mark2]

Thanks for all the replies, I'm starting to feel more comfortable about the program.

I think cpac has a good idea, when he writes: __

<the best option might be a dialog that pops up the first time you run the app (which provides a checkbox next to something like "automatically check for updates on launch? (no personal information about this computer will be sent out)">

I like Apple OS X updater, it pops up an lets you know about the updates and gives you the option of downloading them.
----
Rickster wrote:
<Hmm... since we have automatic update checking on by default, maybe we should put a warning of such on our download pages so we don't scare anybody.>

Rickster, I think I read, some time ago, on a forum, that OO has to connect (rather, automatically connects) using the internet everytime a user creates one of the documents that uses columns. I don't know if there would be something special about that situation, or, if the information was just incorrect.

I'd hardly want a software company riding along everytime I was trying to do some private business and happened to be using one of their applications. This is how my original question came about. Maybe I just worry too much, but when you have advertising companies (isn't click.com the biggie in this) trying like crazy to accumulate information on us, and some software distributors using spyware, it's worth taking a bit of caution in making choices on the internet.

Thanks again, for taking the time to make me better informed.
mark2

[cpac]

Originally posted by mark2:
I think I read, some time ago, on a forum, that OO has to connect (rather, automatically connects) using the internet everytime a user creates one of the documents that uses columns.

cut back on the crack/speed/PCP...

that's just ridiculous.

Maybe I just worry too much

maybe?

but when you have advertising companies (isn't click.com the biggie in this) trying like crazy to accumulate information on us, and some software distributors using spyware, it's worth taking a bit of caution in making choices on the internet.

OmniGroup isn't an advertising company, they just write great software. In fact, OmniWeb comes with some of the best privacy options out there (including a filter to prevent loading anything from doubleclick which is what I think you're thinking of as "click.com")

[nforcer]

Downloading an update file and having the application determine if an update is available by parsing that file is hardly "phoning home". "Phoning home" is when an application uploads data to a server, typically data about the user that is not directly related to the specific application making the connection (although sometimes it can be), and typically not telling the user about it, or not letting the user disable the function.

[Rickster]

I like Apple OS X updater, it pops up an lets you know about the updates and gives you the option of downloading them.

That's exactly what the Omni apps are doing.

Rickster, I think I read, some time ago, on a forum, that OO has to connect (rather, automatically connects) using the internet everytime a user creates one of the documents that uses columns. I don't know if there would be something special about that situation, or, if the information was just incorrect.

As cpac so eloquently notes: that information is quite incorrect.

imagine people use modem and have all sorts of applications installed that have auto-update -(search) turned on by default.

Like Apple's Software Update feature that's built into the OS, Omni's apps only check for updates if your Internet connection is already open -- it won't cause your modem to dial. The information exchanged is brief enough that it transfers in less than one second on typical modem connections.

It's important to note that the only information we get when someone checks for an update is something to the effect of, "A computer at IP address 198.151.161.218 checked for updates." IIRC, we don't even know which Omni app they're running, or which version... much less their name or their Mac's configuration or anything else of a personal nature.

Also, our software update architecture is designed to only check for updates on launch the first time you run the app, or the first time you run a version of the app you haven't run before. Following that, it should only check once weekly, unless you set it to check on a shorter interval in the Preferences window. (This is so people who pick up the app on CD or from some out-of-date third-party source get the latest version right away, instead of using an old possibly-broken version for up to a week.) If it's not doing this, you've found a bug.

[MrBS]

Originally posted by Rickster:
It's important to note that the only information we get when someone checks for an update is something to the effect of, "A computer at IP address 198.151.161.218 checked for updates."

Are you saying that my computer is broadcasting an IP to the internet? Something that could be used to attack my computer???

~BS

ps. for those of you who have the luxury of only needing to use pop-up-blocking-OW, I assure you this is a joke

[Angus_D]

Originally posted by MrBS:
Are you saying that my computer is broadcasting an IP to the internet? Something that could be used to attack my computer???

LOL. Those ads should be make illegal.

[mark2]

Rickster, thanks again for the clarification. As you can see, there is quite a bit of interest in the subject on information gathering by sw companies.
---------
nforcer, thanks for the information.
------
cpac wrote:

<cut back on the crack/speed/PCP...

that's just ridiculous>

cpac, you're a flake. Your last post added absolutely nothing to this thread. If you're not interested in the discussion, then pass it by, you don't have to act like an A$$hole.
Pull your head out, and, grow up.

[cpac]

Originally posted by mark2:
cpac, you're a flake. Your last post added absolutely nothing to this thread. If you're not interested in the discussion, then pass it by, you don't have to act like an A$$hole.
Pull your head out, and, grow up.

I was attempting to point out the absurdity of thinking that adding a column to an outline would require or invoke internet access/communication with OmniGroup.

That's like saying Text Edit has to call Apple every time you type the letter "t" or that Photoshop calls Adobe every time you do a Gaussian blur.

It's just absurd.

--------

I think privacy/spyware is a legitimate concern, but you, my friend, have taken it to a new level. Rather than worrying about what non-internet related applications made by trusted companies do, you should be focusing on applications like your web browser, IM client, or file sharing client.

[Judge_Fire]

Originally posted by mark2:
I write a lot and always look for tools that might be useful.

I like the Omni products a lot, but am infuriated by the weak link between Outliner and Graffle - I far preferred the parallel, realtime nature of Inspiration in OS 9 myself.

Then I found this small donationware product, MyMind, which I now use. It seems to choke with lots of text, but it's worth trying out.

J

[mark2]

Judge_Fire wrote:
<I like the Omni products a lot, but am infuriated by the weak link between Outliner and Graffle - I far preferred the parallel, realtime nature of Inspiration in OS 9 myself.

Then I found this small donationware product, MyMind...>


After working with the Inspiration demo for a couple of days I've decided to buy it. You can work with it in a lot of ways.
And, thanks for the tip about MyMind, I'll check it out.
There's a shareware program I started using when I revise that you may be interested in. It's called Alepin. It's a simple, Scrapbook type app. But, it allows you to organize a lot of files and you can activate a floating window, which you can resize as needed so it doesn't get in your way, then you can use drag & drop and revise segments of text while keeping the main piece of writing onscreen at the same time. Easier to do than to explain, but it's a big help.You can find it at version tracker. It's a $10.00 app. : ) Z-Write is also a nice writing app.
------
cpac,
Sorry I blew up. I just don't like being attacked. I'm trying to get some information, that's all.
This is what got me hot:
<cut back on the crack/speed/PCP...
that's just ridiculous.>

Then you wrote the following, which I agreed with:
<I was attempting to point out the absurdity of thinking that adding a column to an outline would require or invoke internet access/communication with OmniGroup >

When I wrote that question about the column, I was just stating what I had read. There is no way for most of us to know what a given piece of software is capable of doing while we are connected, that's why I asked the questions. To get answers from people who know the program.

Well, at least the thread got a little lively for a while. You all seem comfortable with OO so I'll be trying it out. I have some uses for the calculating feature I read about. Maybe it would be useful as a simple, convenient way to keep track of account billing. Just for a quick and dirty, month-to-month reference. Anyway, that's one of the reasons I'm interested in it.

Thanks all!
mark2

[cpac]

Originally posted by mark2:
cpac,
Sorry I blew up. I just don't like being attacked.

no worries. I'll try to be less colorful in my descriptions of paranoia.

Definitely take a look at OO, and OG and OW for that matter (and OmniDictionary, and anything else they ever come out with).

[mark2]

Just came by to update the thread. I downloaded II and agree it is a nice program. I especially like the calculating columns feature. It does even more than I had hoped. I already have a lot of uses for the program in mind, so I'll be buying a license, today.

The onlline Help does not work. Probably a problem with OS X, since I've had the problem with other programs as well. So I took the question I had to the Omni support page and read through it looking for the information I needed. While there, I found a reference to my original question (and the topic of this thread) Omni Outliner apparently does phone home, though, from the faq, it sounds harmless. But, of course, it's their faq, what else would they be expected to say? Here's the reference from the OO faq, for anyone who may be interested:

<Every time I open a document in OmniOutliner, my computer connects to the internet. Why is this? Is my privacy being compromised?
When we create a column we create a unique object identifier. We get the ip address to help create it, but the method we used also gets the hostname (which we don't really need), and which we soon discovered has the side effect of firing up an internet connection. No information ever actually leaves your computer, though. Sorry about the confusion.
Entry last updated on Nov. 18, 2002 >

Obviously, there is some incorrect information in this thread. OO phones home for more than just "Updates" as stated above.

[cpac]

Originally posted by mark2:
OO phones home for more than just "Updates" as stated above.

Did you not read what you just posted from the FAQ?

No information ever actually leaves your computer

That's not "phoning home." At most, it's "taking the phone off the hook."

[ratlater]

Originally posted by mark2:
Just came by to update the thread. I downloaded II and agree it is a nice program. I especially like the calculating columns feature. It does even more than I had hoped. I already have a lot of uses for the program in mind, so I'll be buying a license, today.

The onlline Help does not work. Probably a problem with OS X, since I've had the problem with other programs as well. So I took the question I had to the Omni support page and read through it looking for the information I needed. While there, I found a reference to my original question (and the topic of this thread) Omni Outliner apparently does phone home, though, from the faq, it sounds harmless. But, of course, it's their faq, what else would they be expected to say? Here's the reference from the OO faq, for anyone who may be interested:

<Every time I open a document in OmniOutliner, my computer connects to the internet. Why is this? Is my privacy being compromised?
When we create a column we create a unique object identifier. We get the ip address to help create it, but the method we used also gets the hostname (which we don't really need), and which we soon discovered has the side effect of firing up an internet connection. No information ever actually leaves your computer, though. Sorry about the confusion.
Entry last updated on Nov. 18, 2002 >

Obviously, there is some incorrect information in this thread. OO phones home for more than just "Updates" as stated above.

I don't think you fully understand what OO is doing here. All it is doing is using your IP address to help calculate something unique in the program. The FAQ mentions that doing this has the side of opening a network connection. Nothing is ever sent on this connection though! Since absolutely nothing is sent it isn't phoning home.

-matt

[DeathMan]

You need to learn enough about computers and technology to read and comprehend a simple FAQ that clearly shows that OO is NOT phoning home. You are seriously paranoid, and I'd think you were my brother, except that he would have understood the FAQ. Learning more would help you sound like less of an pompous ignoramus when you go around making slanderous accusations of software companies.