[KidRed]

Originally posted by moki:
My mistake then; please accept my apologies.



Well, I was looking at it more from the point of view that this seemingly widespread Panther piracy may make Apple less willing to give developers the early builds of the OS that they need. I can tell you that for our company, this would indeed suck.

Also, installing it on your own machine to satisfy your curiosity is one thing, but going around installing it on others for real work, in a corporate environment... I don't know.

Don't forget about those Apple Seed beta testers Don't want to ruin it for them as well (like they almost did for Safari)

[dru]

Someone please check the Panther Finder and see if this bug is still there.

If you rename a file name's extension (which I often do to make a correction), answer "are you sure?" the dialog, for some reason the Finder leaves a selection box attached to the mouse pointer! You can only "let go" by clicking on a blank spot.

Try it in Jaguar (any 10.2.x) and you'll see.

It's extraordinarily aggrivating.

If Panther has it, REPORT it to Apple!

[Gene Jockey]

Originally posted by dru:
Someone please check the Panther Finder and see if this bug is still there.

If you rename a file name's extension (which I often do to make a correction), answer "are you sure?" the dialog, for some reason the Finder leaves a selection box attached to the mouse pointer! You can only "let go" by clicking on a blank spot.

Try it in Jaguar (any 10.2.x) and you'll see.

It's extraordinarily aggrivating.

If Panther has it, REPORT it to Apple!

That's never happened to me, and I've run every version of X since 10.0. What kind of hardware is this on? Do you have Quartz Extreme?

--J

[Michel Fortin]

Originally posted by Gene Jockey:
That's never happened to me, and I've run every version of X since 10.0. What kind of hardware is this on? Do you have Quartz Extreme?

--J

This never happend to me too, until I clicked elsewhere in the finder window to close renaming mode, instead of pressing enter or return.

[dru]

Originally posted by Gene Jockey:
That's never happened to me, and I've run every version of X since 10.0. What kind of hardware is this on? Do you have Quartz Extreme?

--J

iMac G4/FP-800, Superdrive. It happens consistently.

Hmm. I *do* use a Logitech scrollwheel optical mouse. I wonder if it's a driver glitch. I'll try my Pro mouse and report back.

Update: it's not about the mouse.

When I'm done editing the filename, I click on a blank area rather than hitting enter.

Then I get the confirmation dialog. Once that dialog is dismissed, I'll move the mouse only to find there is a selection area attached to it.

It definitely seems to be a Finder quirk.

[dru]

Originally posted by Michel Fortin:
This never happend to me too, until I clicked elsewhere in the finder window to close renaming mode, instead of pressing enter or return.

This is *exactly* when it happens. I fell better now. I'm not entirely insane.

[Gene Jockey]

Originally posted by dru:
This is *exactly* when it happens. I fell better now. I'm not entirely insane.

Ah ah! Now I get it. I've always just hit enter after changing the name (I mean, my hands are already on the keyboard), so that's never happened before. But I saw it now. You're not nuts Weird bug.

--J

[tooki]

I must concur that installing illegally obtained pre-release software on a production machine is incredibly irresponsible and reckless, not to mention legally perilous.

Yes, Panther is relatively stable, but it's not ready.


Deal-breakers for me, for not leaving it installed on my secondary machine (it came nowhere near my primary machine):

- legality
- Toast won't even launch
- the DVD player is very buggy, sometimes it won't recognize a disc, and it leaves masking artifacts all over the place on my non-Quartz-Extreme-capable Mac
- open/save dialogs took incredible amounts of time to appear the first time they were summoned in any given application. (Summoning them again in the same app is quick.)

tooki

[LightWaver-67]

Originally posted by tooki:
Deal-breakers for me, for not leaving it installed on my secondary machine (it came nowhere near my primary machine):

- legality
- Toast won't even launch
- the DVD player is very buggy, sometimes it won't recognize a disc, and it leaves masking artifacts all over the place on my non-Quartz-Extreme-capable Mac
- open/save dialogs took incredible amounts of time to appear the first time they were summoned in any given application. (Summoning them again in the same app is quick.)

tooki

Heheheh... I just have to smirk a little-bit. You mentioned the top reason on the list as "Legality" yet the following reasons were practical usage issues.

My question is... if Toast, DVD Player and the Open/Save boxes were not problematic... would you still be running it...? Would the "Moral Responsibility" that drove your decision still be as strong...? or is it more because you (like me) fear the possibility of doing either minor or major damage to a machine that would ultimately need a clean install to fix...? ...or because you can't be bothered until those things are working fine...?



Not challenging your honor... just asking in a lighthearted tone.

Peace...

[MacGorilla]

Originally posted by tooki:
I must concur that installing illegally obtained pre-release software on a production machine is incredibly irresponsible and reckless, not to mention legally perilous.

Yes, Panther is relatively stable, but it's not ready.


Deal-breakers for me, for not leaving it installed on my secondary machine (it came nowhere near my primary machine):

- legality
- Toast won't even launch
- the DVD player is very buggy, sometimes it won't recognize a disc, and it leaves masking artifacts all over the place on my non-Quartz-Extreme-capable Mac
- open/save dialogs took incredible amounts of time to appear the first time they were summoned in any given application. (Summoning them again in the same app is quick.)

tooki

Yes, I erased my install as well. It was OK but it had enough small bugs to start getting on my nerves.

[ShotgunEd]

Im keeping it on here in the mean time. Its great on my iBook, but very buggy on the Dual 1.25. Dragging windows from one monitor to the other causes a 10 second freeze, and the window borders seem to get corrupted.

[macman76]

OK, is this a new DVD player? If so, does it finally support passing DTS and DD bitstreams to a USB audio interface (sonica, edirol, etc.)? I mean, the new towers will have Toslink in and out on the back, so I figure they should have support for bitstreams out for those machines...

Anyone who can test that?

It doesn't pass DTS at all, it can barely draw menu items so picking the DTS audio is pretty hard as well. It passes a DD flag, and every few seconds you get a sound or two. Did I mention it stutters video like mad when you actually try to play the DTS track?

Stick with VLan. This DVDPlayer is crap.

[Thinine]

Some specs would be nice to go with that story.

[macman76]

Dual 500
768MB RAM
Radeon 9000
USB Sonica

[TheTraveller]

I have been downloading Panther for *days*. One day, it'll finish, and then I'll be stoked. Illegal, sure, immoral, I don't really think so. I'm just a super-early adopter, always have been.

[MacGorilla]

Originally posted by TheTraveller:
I have been downloading Panther for *days*. One day, it'll finish, and then I'll be stoked. Illegal, sure, immoral, I don't really think so. I'm just a super-early adopter, always have been.

I did that too and after the initial "ooo" factor you'll find lots of irritating little bugs. I hate to sound like a bummer, but, it will wear off fast.

[andretan]

Thanks Erik for the preview and stuff!

[starman]

I've been playing with Alpha/Beta Mac OS versions since System 7.0a (which I think I still have on CD). Anyone who thinks they're going to get a full-fledged OS from these pre-release versions is deluding themselves. It's not for prime time.

Mike

[tooki]

When I mentioned legality, I was basically thinking about the fact that it's a really bad idea to run pirated software in a business setting.

Will I briefly try Panther at home on a machine that belongs to me? Sure. Do I keep it, even at home? No.

Would I ever think of installing pirated software at a client? I don't think so! The last thing one needs is the BSA (or your country's equivalent) knocking on your company's door...

tooki

[dark3lf]

I'd just like to know if anyone else has seen this problem. Does anyone have problems mounting CDs properly? CDs formatted on a PC for ISO9660 do not work at all, the CD shows up on the desktop, and the meta-info on the bottom of the CD shows the size correctly, but the files contained on the CD have no filesize and no icon, just the filename at the bottom. DVDs always work, and S/VCDs work 95% of time time as well as Audio CDs and CDs formatted with HFS/+ work just fine as well.

[Peter]

I have used Panther from day after release, its perfect for me

[xi_hyperon]

Originally posted by dru:
This is *exactly* when it happens. I fell better now. I'm not entirely insane.

No, you're not insane. I get the same thing in Jag and it is quite annoying to have suddenly selected several folders on the desktop.

[bracken]

Originally posted by MacGorilla:
Yes, I erased my install as well. It was OK but it had enough small bugs to start getting on my nerves.

Same here.

[natan]

Here's a feature I found in Mail (Panther Preview version) today that I haven't seen mentioned elsewhere:

If you have threading turned off, you can still temporarily navigate a thread back/forward by holding shift and hitting arrow forwards/backwards. I've found it to be very useful so far!

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by Gene Jockey:
Ah ah! Now I get it. I've always just hit enter after changing the name (I mean, my hands are already on the keyboard), so that's never happened before. But I saw it now. You're not nuts Weird bug.

--J

That bug is still here in the Build 7A202 version of Panther. Weird indeed. Why don't you just use enter?

Anyways, I'm back from a lovely two week holiday in Italy where we took in all the sights from Pisa to Rome and even had an audience with the pope. So, I guess he forgave me for installing Panther on my laptop

Although it went with us, the only thing it was used for was playing music, Futuramas and a MST3K episode (The Day The Earth Froze). It only crashed once while doing nothing but playing music from iTunes, but it may have been overheating from being placed on the bed in the Italian heat.

The monitor problem mysteriously resolved itself as I could open the Monitor control panel by first opening Sound and then going to Monitors from the toolbar. Odd, but the screen no longer flashes when switching users.

The control buttons (brightness, sound etc.) also stopped working, but a restart fixed that. Note that you should read all these bugs as warnings as why installing Panther might not be the best idea for your computer.

[Hash]

i installed Panther and played with it for 30 minutes after which it became clear to me that waiting for final release will be much better. Its so buggy its almost scary (and my impression is that Apple is really hard working on improving the graphics and Quartz Extreme, cause its most half-baked part of the builds, in addition to general GUI problems). I erased the partition and returned to peace of working Jag.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by Krypton:
Can someone post a pic of the new QuickTime player please, I've been eagerly awaiting a refined interface and I've heard tidbits about it finally following the other iApps.

Sorry that this took so long:

QuickTime Player

Oh, and do you ever wonder what would happen if you had multiple users logged in and try to shut down?

Multiple users shut down

[Hozie]

One more question for Erik... Now this may sound like a weird question, but would you just test one little thing for me: Open up Mail, make it show the drawer with your inbox, trash, sent mail, etc. Now try to make it smaller. How small can you make it before the drawer disappears behind the main window?


The reason I'm asking is that the current version of Mail doesn't allow resizing of the drawer smaller than a pre-set limit, at which point is just collapses away. That results in my drawer having a lot of white space in the horizontal dimension sitting there doing nothing. Being screen real-estate impaired, this is enough of a reason for me to remain with Entourage for the moment... Thanks!

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by Hozie:
One more question for Erik... Now this may sound like a weird question, but would you just test one little thing for me: Open up Mail, make it show the drawer with your inbox, trash, sent mail, etc. Now try to make it smaller. How small can you make it before the drawer disappears behind the main window?

Hope this answers your question:

Smallest Mail Window-size

[monkeybrain]

Another mail question (but applies to other apps using drawers as well) - if you make the mail window fullscreen and then click the drawer button does the window resize to allow you to see the drawer?

Oh and I found this in the other thread:

"Also, you can make the finder behave in exactly the same way as Jag, sort of. Open a finder window, press the button on the top right of the titlebar to hide the sidebar/toolbar, then go to view/showtoolbar... voila!!! you can then select the column view and it's just like the old finder, even including the square corners on the botom of the window."

Can anyone confirm this?

[El Mariachi]

Have You used the "Software Update"?

There is an update for Panther.

[Hozie]

Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
Hope this answers your question:

Smallest Mail Window-size

Thanks erik, but I actually meant making it the THINNEST possible. That is, taking the drawer by a corner and pulling it to the right (assuming your drawer is on the left as it seems in the picture above). If the picture shows the minimum drawer size in both the horizontal and vertical dimensions, then dang! As you can see, the amount of space that is wasted by not being able to make the drawer thinner is considerable...

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by El Mariachi:
Have You used the "Software Update"?

There is an update for Panther.

Yup, I've used it. No discernable differences yet. FCP4's User Interface is screwed up under Panther still, and I can't open my monitor control panel except if I first open another control panel and choosing it from the toolbar.

I'm at work now, so I'll have to get home before I can check Hozie and monkeybrain's issues.

As always should be noted Panther is not even beta yet and there will be continued bug-fixes and features might be still be added or changed.

[waffffffle]

Originally posted by Hozie:
Thanks erik, but I actually meant making it the THINNEST possible. That is, taking the drawer by a corner and pulling it to the right (assuming your drawer is on the left as it seems in the picture above). If the picture shows the minimum drawer size in both the horizontal and vertical dimensions, then dang! As you can see, the amount of space that is wasted by not being able to make the drawer thinner is considerable...

I believe you can now make the drawer thinner.

[lookmark]

I have a question...

How is Full Keyboard Access implemented in Panther? Is it a set of configurable keyboard commands in the Keyboard Shortcuts section of Sys Pref > Mouse & Keyboard? And after hitting a key to access the menubar, for example, will hitting the letter of a menu (e.g. "F" for File) move to that menu, and then similarily further keypresses down that menu?

I'm curious, as I've heard of number of switchers (and would-be switchers) complain about full keyboard access in OS X not being up to snuff. Which it isn't yet, in Jaguar.

[carmine]

I tried to upgrade my 10.2.6 tibook, and i get an error every time i try and install panther. it checks my intstall disk, and that works fine, but then on the next step it says there were "errors installing the software" and makes me restart. do i need to try the "archive and install option? thanks....

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by waffffffle:
I believe you can now make the drawer thinner.

Confirmed. You can make it so that it only shows the icons. I have a screenshot to prove it, but forgot to upload it yesterday, instead having a barbecue out in the lovely sun. Pics here and here.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by lookmark:
I have a question...

How is Full Keyboard Access implemented in Panther? Is it a set of configurable keyboard commands in the Keyboard Shortcuts section of Sys Pref > Mouse & Keyboard? And after hitting a key to access the menubar, for example, will hitting the letter of a menu (e.g. "F" for File) move to that menu, and then similarily further keypresses down that menu?

According to Think Secret, yes. I'll have to test this for myself later to confirm it.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by carmine:
I tried to upgrade my 10.2.6 tibook, and i get an error every time i try and install panther. it checks my install disk, and that works fine, but then on the next step it says there were "errors installing the software" and makes me restart. do i need to try the "archive and install option? thanks....

Yes, you should always Archive and Install just in case. Or as in this case my advise would be to stick with Mac OS X 10.2.6 for now. Panther is likely to cause more pain than good in its current state. Unless you're the adventurous type, like me of course

[Hozie]

Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
Confirmed. You can make it so that it only shows the icons. I have a screenshot to prove it, but forgot to upload it yesterday, instead having a barbecue out in the lovely sun. Pics here and here.

Well, ok, I'll let it go this time . Thanks man, this thread is one of the most informative ones that I've ever read... You're incredibly responsive too. Oh, and if I were a girl, from the pics you attached, I'd be all over your nordic bod... Or sumthin. Anyway, great news, Mail, here I come!

[JKT]

Another request:

when running other accounts under the multiple user fast-switch feature, how is the CPU loaded and what does top indicate in the terminal?

Also:

1. Does a CPU intensive task(s) throttle back in the background account(s)? I assume they must, otherwise the foreground account would choke.

2. Does top indicate what background account processes are running in full or does it mask them somehow by "pooling" them and calling them e.g. user 1 or something?

3. If it pools them, can you "sudo" top to see all processes in full, even those in background accounts?

Just interested in 2 and 3 for obvious security reasons...

[Hone Melgren]

I have a question for all those currently running Panther :

Has Help Center been improved much ?

Can you search specificely in one applications help ? Is it fast ? Does it bring up relevant results ?

Or is it too early for a verdict ?

[Diggory Laycock]

SWUpdate Screenies:

http://www.monkeyfood.com/thestuff/f...erSWUpdate.jpg

http://www.monkeyfood.com/thestuff/f...rSWUpdate2.jpg

http://www.monkeyfood.com/thestuff/f...rSWUpdate3.jpg

[sniffer]

Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
Yes, you should always Archive and Install just in case. Or as in this case my advise would be to stick with Mac OS X 10.2.6 for now. Panther is likely to cause more pain than good in its current state. Unless you're the adventurous type, like me of course

That's my conclusion as well. There are to many broken things in this built to use it on a daily basis (just as expected). Although it might convince you that saving up the 129$ and have it ready before GM is not so bad idea. Oh and if this hasn't been mentioned before, DP feels faster than 10.2.6 after fresh install of both systems on the same hardware (@ least on mine).

[Diggory Laycock]

New "Connect to..." dialog in finder (looks like OS 9 Network Browser):

http://www.monkeyfood.com/thestuff/f.../ConnectTo.jpg

Folder Actions Manager:

http://www.monkeyfood.com/thestuff/f...ActionsMan.jpg

Ink Menu Extra:

http://www.monkeyfood.com/thestuff/f...er/InkMenu.jpg

Terminal Dock Menu:

http://www.monkeyfood.com/thestuff/f...alDockMenu.jpg

Classic Menu Extra:

http://www.monkeyfood.com/thestuff/f...lassicMenu.jpg

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by JKT:
Another request:

when running other accounts under the multiple user fast-switch feature, how is the CPU loaded and what does top indicate in the terminal?

Also:

1. Does a CPU intensive task(s) throttle back in the background account(s)? I assume they must, otherwise the foreground account would choke.

Here's what top looks like in a Terminal with a set background (woo, two features, one screenshot).

Multi User Top with Terminal Image Background

As you can see, each process is assigned a user ID and listed in top. This is with two admin accounts, not sure what would happen with regular users.

On your second question I would have to assume that it doesn't. Having two users logged in at the same time is no different than running the processes combined. You just have to be nice to the people using the computer at the same time as you

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by Hozie:
Well, ok, I'll let it go this time . Thanks man, this thread is one of the most informative ones that I've ever read... You're incredibly responsive too. Oh, and if I were a girl, from the pics you attached, I'd be all over your nordic bod... Or sumthin. Anyway, great news, Mail, here I come!

Thanks for your comments about my body, tell your female friends. Anyways, here's your screen shot:

Mail drawer

Misc cool features without screen shots:

If you log out and a application is stuck you get a dialog box saying so and offering to force quit the app instead of aborting the logout.

Help Viewer is based on WebKit and launches in two bounces the first time, one the second time. Browsing is super duper mega fast. Instant unless you switch to a page with a quicktime movie (DVD-player help for instance).

Stuck application are now both in red and have a (Not responding) message in the Force Quit dialog, which is now a non-modal window instead of a pallette (close with apple-w)

About this mac curiously has changed to a palette.

You can use Finder windows with no toolbar, just the sidebar, just the toolbar or both with little effort (clicking the toolbar button on the top right). Meaning you can make it behave JUST the way you want it. Hooray for customization!

Scrolling in Safari is much better after the last update. Smooth scrolling is really smooth and fast. You get used to it really fast.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by Hone Melgren:
Has Help Center been improved much ?

Can you search specificely in one applications help ? Is it fast ? Does it bring up relevant results ?

Or is it too early for a verdict ?

See last reply for Help Viewer speed.

You cannot yet search just one apps help, and such the search is relatively slow (not annoyingly slow mind you). I found relevant searches each time. I believe the V-Twin engine is doing the searches here (same as in mail).

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by lookmark:
How is Full Keyboard Access implemented in Panther? Is it a set of configurable keyboard commands in the Keyboard Shortcuts section of Sys Pref > Mouse & Keyboard? And after hitting a key to access the menubar, for example, will hitting the letter of a menu (e.g. "F" for File) move to that menu, and then similarily further keypresses down that menu?

Here's how it works: Press the command for Menu-focus (default: ctrl-F2) and it opens the Apple menu. Pressing a letter will go to that item in the menu, but you still have to work the arrows to hop between menus.

[DaGuy]

Thanks Erik, what about the users listed in the login window. Is it possible to hide users and their pictures without deleting their accounts?

You see, I have several dummy users for MySQL, Postgres and so on that serve no purpose in being displayed in the login window yet they need to have accounts in the system.

Thanks!