[Nawoo]

Why is it after several hours of fighting, only 4 corpses were found? Did those 4 men manage to resist 200+ US special forces for hours?

Someone pls clarify this with me before i start to celebrate

[docbud]

What are you planning on celebrating? That the U.S. troops were successful, or that 4 guys held the troops off for a couple hours (but died doing it)?

[Nawoo]

That the 2 sons are confirmed dead.

But 4 people managing to hold out for several hours against 200+ US special forces is quite unbelievable.

[zigzag]

Originally posted by Nawoo:
That the 2 sons are confirmed dead.

But 4 people managing to hold out for several hours against 200+ US special forces is quite unbelievable.

They watched a lot of Steven Seagal movies.

[spacefreak]

Originally posted by Nawoo:
That the 2 sons are confirmed dead.

But 4 people managing to hold out for several hours against 200+ US special forces is quite unbelievable.

All these precautions and regulations -- OSHA and the such. Today, our military requires 50 men per suspect on any mission.

I think it was a cocktail -- a 'better-safe-than-sorry' type of operation, mixed in with some 'there's-not-a-chance-in-hell-these-skumbags-are-getting-away-alive'.

This was no cruise missile down the chimney of a 'suspected' location. These guys knew who they were going to find and capture/kill, regardless of the resistance.

[ThinkInsane]

Four well-armed men (or women for that matter), in a fortified position, can hold a surprising number of people at bay for a considerable period of time. And from the sound of it, they probably did want to capture them alive, as I am sure they would have their uses to the intell types. If not, when it looked to be becoming a stand off, they would just have the fly-boys put a 500 pounder through the roof.

[Troll]

Originally posted by ThinkInsane:
Four well-armed men (or women for that matter), in a fortified position, can hold a surprising number of people at bay for a considerable period of time. And from the sound of it, they probably did want to capture them alive, as I am sure they would have their uses to the intell types. If not, when it looked to be becoming a stand off, they would just have the fly-boys put a 500 pounder through the roof.

Did you see any pictures of the house? Every square centimeter has at least one bullet hole in it. A number of missiles have hit the place. The one column has been so shot up, it's about half the thickness at the midpoint.

With the accuracy reputation and the collateral damage that might have been caused, I don't think a 500 pounder was an option.

I don't think they had any plans to take them alive. Which is a pity, because they probably know where Saddam is ... and I would have liked to let the Iraqis deal with them! That woman lawyer that Uday drove insane by torturing her for years. I'd have liked to hand him over to her!

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Troll:
With the accuracy reputation and the collateral damage that might have been caused, I don't think a 500 pounder was an option.

Didn't stop them before.

I think the main problem here was that they *needed* the remains to be identifiable.

"Um, yes, in the wreckage we've found traces of body tissue and cigars, which we conclude to be the remains of Saddam Hussein's two sons..." - I think not.

-s*

[eklipse]

If they only just 'got' Uday & Quasay in the recent 3 hour shootout, it makes you wonder who they 'got' in the missile attack that initiated the war - or in the restaurant they JDAMed later.

[christ]

Originally posted by Troll:
Did you see any pictures of the house? Every square centimeter has at least one bullet hole in it. A number of missiles have hit the place. The one column has been so shot up, it's about half the thickness at the midpoint. ...

Clint Eastwood would have got out - have you seen The Gauntlet?

[christ]

Originally posted by eklipse:
If they only just 'got' Uday & Quasay in the recent 3 hour shootout...

They're obviously doubles.

[Logic]

I've been hearing reports that the battle stood for 6 hours.

Were they trying to bore the 4 guys to death? How the hell can 4 guys hold back US troops for 6 hours

[eklipse]

Originally posted by Logic:
I've been hearing reports that the battle stood for 6 hours.

Were they trying to bore the 4 guys to death? How the hell can 4 guys hold back US troops for 6 hours

They were really, really, really, really bad, so the troops had to kill them lots of times to make sure all the badness was dead.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Logic:
I've been hearing reports that the battle stood for 6 hours.

Were they trying to bore the 4 guys to death? How the hell can 4 guys hold back US troops for 6 hours

I have heard that only 2 US troops were killed. Ever practiced urban combat? I haven't done it for real, but I have friends who have (in Panama). I have also done it a bunch of times in simulation (using MILES laser tag). MOUT is a defender's paradise. I have seen 4 defenders hold off 2 companies of infantry with little more than rifles and razor wire. If you are in the offense, your choices are to either go in slow with a lot of firepower. Or you take a lot of casualties. Or both.

If they only took 2 casualties against a well armed group of defenders who clearly had no intention of surrendering, then it seems likely the Army did very well indeed. But as ever, we will wait for more details.

[Logic]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
I have heard that only 2 US troops were killed. Ever practiced urban combat?

Depends on what you call urban But unfortunatly yes I have. Probably the worst possible scenario.

I haven't done it for real, but I have friends who have (in Panama). I have also done it a bunch of times in simulation (using MILES laser tag). MOUT is a defender's paradise. I have seen 4 defenders hold off 2 companies of infantry with little more than rifles and razor wire. If you are in the offense, your choices are to either go in slow with a lot of firepower. Or you take a lot of casualties. Or both.

Yes it is a defenders paradise but it also depends on how you start the "battle". You can send a few to check the building or you can raid the building. I was especially trained for raiding(I have no idea what the correct term in english is). But these are the situation dogs are perhaps most useful in battle. Let a couple of well trained German Shephards go in first closelly followed by troops. It is quite interesting to see the most hardened men start crying for help when the dog has him in sight. The pace they can attack is often enough to aviod any injuries for the dog. My group prefered the raiding technique since that gave us a tactical advantage in most cases. But it all depends on the situation and how your access route(again term?) is.

If they only took 2 casualties against a well armed group of defenders who clearly had no intention of surrendering, then it seems likely the Army did very well indeed. But as ever, we will wait for more details.

I don't pretend to know how they planned the attack but from what I know, it seems to be a mistake. 4 untrained(or badly trained) defenders against 200 top of the line soldiers should not result in a 6 hours battle. Just shouldn't.

But I agree that we have to get more details of how the battle was fought. Could be that they really just wanted to bore them to death

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Logic:
Depends on what you call urban But unfortunatly yes I have. Probably the worst possible scenario.

Out of curiosity: where was this?

-s*

[SimeyTheLimey]

The question isn't the attacker's tactics. They could always have brought in a Bradley or a tank and simply levelled the building. I suspect they didn't do that because they hoped to get people alive for interregation, and in order to obtain other documents that could be destroyed if they went in too violently.

Your raiding thing might not be effective in all circumstances. For one thing, it depends on how good the defender's fields of fire were. And of course, on how suspicious they were. Secondly, I mentioned razor wire. One of the things you do if you are in the defense in a building is create obstacles to make it impossible for people to gain entry to the ground floor to work their way up. It gives the defenders a huge advantage. In the training scenario I mentioned where I watched 4 people "kill" 2 companies (including me), the defenders basically wrapped the lower floor in wire, then filled the stairwell with more wire. They made it impassible without the use of a single booby-trap.

One way attackers try to get around that is by entering higher up. I have seen various methods - ladders, ropes, helicopters, climbing onto armored vehicles. They all have their disadvantages. If the defenders are really serious and if you are limited to relatively small arms, the defenders can hold you off until they run out of ammo. That could easily take 6 hours if they have a lot of ammo. And what's the betting the Hussein brothers had a lot of ammo.

By the way, maybe I am misreading some of the comments here, but somehow the assumption seems to have crept in that the US troops were Special Forces. The reports I have seen indicate that they were 101st Airborne. Those would be regular 11B infantrymen, not special forces. 11Bs are pretty much the same kind of troops as I was. In fact, I received 11B training before tacking on the "Mike Course" to become an 11M (mechanized infantryman). The additional training many 101st troops get is Air Assault training, which wouldn't have been relavant here.

[Troll]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
I have heard that only 2 US troops were killed. Ever practiced urban combat? I haven't done it for real, but I have friends who have (in Panama). I have also done it a bunch of times in simulation (using MILES laser tag). MOUT is a defender's paradise. I have seen 4 defenders hold off 2 companies of infantry with little more than rifles and razor wire. If you are in the offense, your choices are to either go in slow with a lot of firepower. Or you take a lot of casualties. Or both.

If they only took 2 casualties against a well armed group of defenders who clearly had no intention of surrendering, then it seems likely the Army did very well indeed. But as ever, we will wait for more details.

If you sit across the road and fire at a house during peace time, is that considered urban combat? My concept of urban combat involves warfare in a city not policing operations.

Since the war is over, aren't the Americans supposed to be acting as policemen in Iraq? Policemen would surely not act in this way. I once witnessed a SWAT operation on a bank. 6 guys armed with AK's got caught inside the bank with 15 or so hostages. The SWAT team sorted it out in about 4 minutes with none of the 20 odd hostages or the robbers being harmed.

Here we have 3 men and a kid armed with light machine guns. These guys, in their wisdom, deal with the problem by sending 200 troops waltzing up the road to Uday and Qusay's place. Subtle! When the two of them open fire, they park off and spend 6 hours pounding the place. Surely a well-trained team of SWAT-type guys could have gone in there in the dead of night and caught them while they were sleeping? Or, couldn't they have surrounded the house and waited?

Make no mistake, I don't care that these guys are dead, but they missed a good opportunity to take them alive, get some intel on Saddam and show Iraqis how civilised nations deal with genocidal maniacs.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Troll:
If you sit across the road and fire at a house during peace time, is that considered urban combat? My concept of urban combat involves warfare in a city not policing operations.

Since the war is over, aren't the Americans supposed to be acting as policemen in Iraq? Policemen would surely not act in this way. I once witnessed a SWAT operation on a bank. 6 guys armed with AK's got caught inside the bank with 15 or so hostages. The SWAT team sorted it out in about 4 minutes with none of the 20 odd hostages or the robbers being harmed.

Here we have 3 men and a kid armed with light machine guns. These guys, in their wisdom, deal with the problem by sending 200 troops waltzing up the road to Uday and Qusay's place. Subtle! When the two of them open fire, they park off and spend 6 hours pounding the place. Surely a well-trained team of SWAT-type guys could have gone in there in the dead of night and caught them while they were sleeping? Or, couldn't they have surrounded the house and waited?

Make no mistake, I don't care that these guys are dead, but they missed a good opportunity to take them alive, get some intel on Saddam and show Iraqis how civilised nations deal with genocidal maniacs.

Troll, with respect. What is the extent of your military experience?

[Troll]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Troll, with respect. What is the extent of your military experience?

Pleased to say none! I'm not one of those boys club kind of guys that thinks that you neeed to go through a rite of passage of honour and duty by learning how to kill people. I spent 5 years of my life trying to stay below the SADF's radar so I wouldn't have to go and kill people in Angola.

I defer to your experience in the field of combat Simey. I'm just not sure it has any relevance here. The nub of my question is why was this a military operation in the first place? The war is over remember? Military operations are over, remember? US soldiers are playing policeman now, aren't they? Do policemen behave like this in the States?

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Troll:
Pleased to say none! I'm not one of those boys club kind of guys that thinks that you neeed to go through a rite of passage of honour and duty by learning how to kill people. I spent 5 years of my life trying to stay below the SADF's radar so I wouldn't have to go and kill people in Angola.

I defer to your experience in the field of combat Simey. I'm just not sure it has any relevance here. The nub of my question is why was this a military operation in the first place? The war is over remember? Military operations are over, remember? US soldiers are playing policeman now, aren't they? Do policemen behave like this in the States?

Actually, my experience is relevant. Although it was only training, and I never (thankfully) had to put it to the test. But I was trained on both high-intensity MOUT, and low-intensity MOUT. The latter was training received from a detachment of Special Forces. It was essentially the same training that civilian police SWAT teams receive.

I also had the opportunity a couple of years ago to watch the FBI Hostage Rescue Team training in Quantico. They practiced an assault on a building called the shooting house. The only difference between what they did, and what we trained to do is that they got to train with live ammunition and explosives. We generally did our close quarters training with blanks and laser tag (called MILES). But the tactics were virtually identical to what I was trained to do.

On the situation in Iraq, you are typically misrepresenting what the military has said. Nobody has said that Iraq is at peace. Bush declared the end to "major hostilities." He didn't declare the end to ALL hostilities. It simply ended a phase in the war. But Iraq is still officially, and practically, a war zone.

[ringo]

Originally posted by christ:
Clint Eastwood would have got out - have you seen The Gauntlet?

Maybe if Uday & Quasay had a cool armored bus and a hottie to protect, things would have gone differently.

Anyway, I don't see why everyone is being so critical of the US forces for taking their time and trying to minimize their own casualties. A situation like this isn't a race. No one is being graded on how long it took to finish the job. Maybe they were just trying to run them out of ammo. Slow and Steady is better than Fast and Bloody in my book. Why hurry?

[Troll]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Bush declared the end to "major hostilities." He didn't declare the end to ALL hostilities. It simply ended a phase in the war. But Iraq is still officially, and practically, a war zone.

You're right. I forgot about the small print on the Mission Accomplished banner! There should be a set of lights like the terrorist alert level indicator thingies you have. There should be a list of all the wars the US is involved (one for Afghanistan, one for Iraq, one for the War on Terror, Syria, Iran) and then a green light for 'Peace' and a red one for 'War'. It's getting difficult to keep up and that would make things clearer.

Anyway, that explains why they COULD send canon fodder to get Uday and Qusay. It doesn't explain why they SHOULD not have rather sent a good SWAT team. I just don't think there was much motivation for getting them alive.

Or ... maybe they didn't have any blanks left for a SWAT style operation. Think we'll see some 'Go, go, go!' tonight?

[Logic]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
Out of curiosity: where was this?

-s*

Peacekeeping in Bosnia.

[nvaughan3]

It's pretty sickening to hear all the cowards in this thread second guessing what went on yesterday. From all account, once the tip was recieved, a soldier went to the front door, knocked, and was fired at. The group he was with fired back, encountered increasingly heavier resistance, and called for backup. These soldiers did not know how many people were in that house. All they knew was that they were acting on a tip that the two sons were in the building, and they got shot at when they attempted to peacefully ascertain if that was true.

But god forbid they be better safe than sorry. It's a shame that not a single american soldier died, because you can't bitch about our casualties that way, right?

[Logic]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
The question isn't the attacker's tactics. They could always have brought in a Bradley or a tank and simply levelled the building. I suspect they didn't do that because they hoped to get people alive for interregation, and in order to obtain other documents that could be destroyed if they went in too violently.

Your raiding thing might not be effective in all circumstances. For one thing, it depends on how good the defender's fields of fire were. And of course, on how suspicious they were. Secondly, I mentioned razor wire. One of the things you do if you are in the defense in a building is create obstacles to make it impossible for people to gain entry to the ground floor to work their way up. It gives the defenders a huge advantage. In the training scenario I mentioned where I watched 4 people "kill" 2 companies (including me), the defenders basically wrapped the lower floor in wire, then filled the stairwell with more wire. They made it impassible without the use of a single booby-trap.

One way attackers try to get around that is by entering higher up. I have seen various methods - ladders, ropes, helicopters, climbing onto armored vehicles. They all have their disadvantages. If the defenders are really serious and if you are limited to relatively small arms, the defenders can hold you off until they run out of ammo. That could easily take 6 hours if they have a lot of ammo. And what's the betting the Hussein brothers had a lot of ammo.

By the way, maybe I am misreading some of the comments here, but somehow the assumption seems to have crept in that the US troops were Special Forces. The reports I have seen indicate that they were 101st Airborne. Those would be regular 11B infantrymen, not special forces. 11Bs are pretty much the same kind of troops as I was. In fact, I received 11B training before tacking on the "Mike Course" to become an 11M (mechanized infantryman). The additional training many 101st troops get is Air Assault training, which wouldn't have been relavant here.

"The special forces involved in the operation are thought to be from Task Force 20, a highly secretive unit given the twin challenges of seeking out any remaining weapons of mass destruction and of tracking down Saddam Hussein and other key regime figures." BBC.

So there were some special ops in the area.

Yes, it is easy to defend a house. But I seriously doubt that they would have placed razor wires around the house if they wanted to be unnoted. Perhaps inside the house, but the difference in firepower should not have hindered a raid. IMHO of course.

It doesn't seem to me that the US was particulary keen on getting them alive since eyewitnesses say the US forces fired at least 20 missiles into the building. So just from that I would say that this was a badly thought out plan. Why shoot missiles at a building if you want to get someone alive?

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Troll:
You're right. I forgot about the small print on the Mission Accomplished banner! There should be a set of lights like the terrorist alert level indicator thingies you have. There should be a list of all the wars the US is involved (one for Afghanistan, one for Iraq, one for the War on Terror, Syria, Iran) and then a green light for 'Peace' and a red one for 'War'. It's getting difficult to keep up and that would make things clearer.

Anyway, that explains why they COULD send canon fodder to get Uday and Qusay. It doesn't explain why they SHOULD not have rather sent a good SWAT team. I just don't think there was much motivation for getting them alive.

Or ... maybe they didn't have any blanks left for a SWAT style operation. Think we'll see some 'Go, go, go!' tonight?

I'm not sure that I would call the 101st Airborne "cannon fodder." Then again, I don't have your contempt for the military.

Those troops were almost certainly trained in SWAT techniques. In my day, it was unusual. My batallion was one of the first regular infantry batallions to receive that kind of training (maybe the first). We received it because in 1993, Clinton was pondering going into Bosnia to end the war forceably, and my division was slated to deploy. Since then, however, I understand that the same or similar training has been extended throughout the Army. Those soldiers in the 101st are probably better trained than I ever was.

The problem with police tactics is it doesn't work when the people you are trying to arrest are as well, or better armed than you are. It also doesn't work when they have had time to prepare a really good defense, which these defenders probably had. Bank robbers haven't had that opportunity, nor do they generally have access to the kind of firepower that the Hussein brothers almost certainly had. In that situation, you revert to regular infantry tactics. That's why you send the infantry in. They are trained and equipped to react to both situations. The police are not. They are only trained to deal with police situations.

Of course I am wasting my time. No matter what the US does, it will always be wrong in your eyes. This is becoming really obvious. Even when the subject is things that you admit you have absolutely no experience or training in, Troll always knows the US screwed up.

[Logic]

Originally posted by nvaughan3:
But god forbid they be better safe than sorry. It's a shame that not a single american soldier died, because you can't bitch about our casualties that way, right?

Have you noticed all the Bush-bashing as some call it here? What do you think that is? He's the one responsible for those troops, not someone who gets attacked by an occupying force.

[Troll]

Originally posted by nvaughan3:
It's pretty sickening to hear all the cowards in this thread second guessing what went on yesterday. From all account, once the tip was recieved, a soldier went to the front door, knocked, and was fired at. The group he was with fired back, encountered increasingly heavier resistance, and called for backup. These soldiers did not know how many people were in that house. All they knew was that they were acting on a tip that the two sons were in the building, and they got shot at when they attempted to peacefully ascertain if that was true.

If that were what happened I'd agree with you, but I don't know what accounts you were listening to. I watched the press conference yesterday and Sanchez said they had a walk-in tip-off the day before and that the assault on the house had been planned beforehand. It certainly wasn't portrayed as a case of knock, knock, I'm looking for Messrs. Hussein!

Uday and Qusay in bits and pieces is fine with me. I would have preferred them in one piece spilling beans or in a cell next to Milosevic, but in bits and pieces will do, so I'll just retire from the discussion.

[Spliffdaddy]

They pulled a 5th victim from the rubble.

Initial reports identified the body as that of "anti-US sentiment in Iraq".

[Troll]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
No matter what the US does, it will always be wrong in your eyes.

... maybe I'll just retire after I set Simey straight on this. I have stuck up for things the US has done before many times. I don't think everything the US does is wrong. When the US had competent presidents in power, I supported lots of things the US did. It's more accurate to say that nearly everything Bush does is wrong in my eyes. I have, on the rare occasion, notably on the AIDS issue, supported his stance, but for the most part I disagree with the way he does things. That's not prejudicial, it's empirical. I wait for him to do something and then if I find it stupid, I say so. Turns out he does a lot of stupid things.

In this thread I have already said that I approve of Uday and Qusay dead! Countless times. I merely expressed an opinion that it doesn't appear that the plan was to get them alive and I find that unfortunate!

You sit here making sh1t up about what weapons Uday and Qusay had, what they had done to the interior of the house, how trained they were, how trained the soldiers were, what their attitude was, and then have the gall to call me names when you accuse me of doing the same?

It's so easy for you to brand me anti-American isn't it? It's getting a bit much. Every thread turns into a Simey calls X a racist thread! I don't like it. I'm sick of having to make a post in every thread explaining for the umpteenth time that my best friends are American, that I actually love Americans and how criticising Bush or the consequences of his immoral, illegal actions is not anti-American. I've said it enough now. Is it not a personal attack to constantly call someone prejudiced?

[Spliffdaddy]

Then stop losing the debates to Simey

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Then stop losing the debates to Simey

I'll concede that you're funny occasionally, but 9 times out of 10, well...

[Troll]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Then stop losing the debates to Simey

Just when I was about to compliment you on the 5th victim joke, you had to do the Simey's groupie thing again ... oh well.

[zigzag]

C'mon folks - it's one thing to oppose the invasion, another to second-guess every single operation before you have all the facts.

This isn't the movies. If I were up against 4 guys fighting to the death with machine guns and who-knows-what-else I'd use missiles, infantry, copters, whatever it takes to take them out while protecting my own. There were probably 200 troops there for a variety of reasons - security, to surround the place, back-up, etc. Why wouldn't you take every precaution, especially if you don't know exactly what you're up against?

Here's what we'll do next time: dress Troll up as a Mormon missionary and have him knock on the door. If he can't get Uday and Qusay to convert, or at least make a donation, he'll single-handedly disarm and capture them. Easy.

[Logic]

Chronology: How the Mosul raid unfolded

[Troll]

Originally posted by zigzag:
Here's what we'll do next time: dress Troll up as a Mormon missionary and have him knock on the door. If he can't get Uday and Qusay to convert, or at least make a donation, he'll single-handedly disarm and capture them. Easy.

Deal. I tell you what, you tell me where Saddam is and I'll do the Mormon thing and share half the $25m with you!

Remember when they got Abu Zubaida in Pakistan (was it him or some other Al Qaeda guy?). The Pakistanis found that he was hiding in a house and they stormed the house? Seems to me like similar circumstances? The Pakistanis got Zubaida alive and apparently he's been very useful. All I'm saying is that they could have tried something like that here. I really, honestly was not trying to be anti-American. I'll take Uday and Qusay dead thank you very much.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Troll:
You sit here making sh1t up about what weapons Uday and Qusay had, what they had done to the interior of the house, how trained they were, how trained the soldiers were, what their attitude was, and then have the gall to call me names when you accuse me of doing the same?[/B]

From the BBC chronology posted by Logic:

1010: Troops begin to enter building and are immediately fired on by the targets, who are barricaded in a fortified part of the first floor of the building. Three coalition soldiers are wounded on the stairs, one is wounded outside building.

Forces withdraw and request a quick reaction force and heavy weaponry, which is then brought in "at a fairly measured pace". Sporadic gunfire continues from house.

I "made sh1t up," Troll, because I have some training in MOUT - both defending and attacking. And it seems my educated guess was correct. They were barricaded in on an upper floor just as I suggested they probably were.

On the training received by 11B of the 101st Airborne DIvision, I already explained that I went through the same infantry training they went through. It's the same school in Fort Benning, Georgia, Troll. Same place, same training. It ought to be obvious that I have at least some insight on that basis.

Maybe if you would stop reflexively posting about things you have no understanding or training in, you wouldn't come across so much as, well, a Troll? Hold your venemous judgement until some facts come out and you might seem less unreasonable.

[eklipse]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
They pulled a 5th victim from the rubble.

Initial reports identified the body as that of "anti-US sentiment in Iraq".

Actually, initial reports were greatly exaggerated.

"anti-US sentiment in Iraq" is alive and well and recovering in Mosul, Northern Iraq.

However, in related news, concern is growing for "American and British credibility" which has been missing for several months now and feared dead.

[nvaughan3]

1010: Troops begin to enter building and are immediately fired on by the targets, who are barricaded in a fortified part of the first floor of the building. Three coalition soldiers are wounded on the stairs, one is wounded outside building.

Forces withdraw and request a quick reaction force and heavy weaponry, which is then brought in "at a fairly measured pace". Sporadic gunfire continues from house.

Isn't this very similar to the chronology I posted above? OK, perhaps they did not "knock on the door". They entered, were fired up, withdrew, and called backup.

[christ]

Originally posted by Logic:
Chronology: How the Mosul raid unfolded

I'm no soldier, but that doesn't sound like "we'd prefer to take them alive", it sounds more like "surrender or we'll shoot you".

I don't much care either way, but 200 folk sounds rather a lot when all you seemed to need (after the original attempt at 'knock and enter') was 2 guys to watch each door and a HUMVEE firing missiles - 10 guys tops.

[zigzag]

Originally posted by Troll:
Deal. I tell you what, you tell me where Saddam is and I'll do the Mormon thing and share half the $25m with you!

Remember when they got Abu Zubaida in Pakistan (was it him or some other Al Qaeda guy?). The Pakistanis found that he was hiding in a house and they stormed the house? Seems to me like similar circumstances? The Pakistanis got Zubaida alive and apparently he's been very useful. All I'm saying is that they could have tried something like that here. I really, honestly was not trying to be anti-American. I'll take Uday and Qusay dead thank you very much.

I believe you, I just think you've jumped to some rather quick conclusions about how this should have been done.

Meanwhile, I will gladly share the $25m with you.

[thunderous_funker]

I have to say I'm a bit surprised at the critics here. What exactly are you complaining about?

I for one am pretty stoked that US forces demonstrated the clear intention of taking these men alive instead of launching a Hellfire missle at the building and trying to figure out who they got from the bits of coagulating gore.

With enough ammunition, shooters in a barricaded upper story room could hold off almost indefinitely. Seems to me the US forces conducted themselves admirably and the only casualties they suffered seem to be from the initial sucker punch.

What exactly is there to bitch about here?

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
I have to say I'm a bit surprised at the critics here. What exactly are you complaining about?

I for one am pretty stoked that US forces demonstrated the clear intention of taking these men alive instead of launching a Hellfire missle at the building and trying to figure out who they got from the bits of coagulating gore.

With enough ammunition, shooters in a barricaded upper story room could hold off almost indefinitely. Seems to me the US forces conducted themselves admirably and the only casualties they suffered seem to be from the initial sucker punch.

What exactly is there to bitch about here?

A voice of sanity. Thank you, T_F.

[thunderous_funker]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
A voice of sanity. Thank you, T_F.

No problem. I mean, hey. Just cuz you're wrong a lot doesn't mean you're always wrong.

[Troll]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
I "made sh1t up," Troll, because I have some training in MOUT - both defending and attacking. And it seems my educated guess was correct. They were barricaded in on an upper floor just as I suggested they probably were.

And if you paid attention to what I was saying instead of attributing an agenda to me, then you would have seen that my point was precisely that it might have been better to avoid a military type operation like the one you're trained for altogether. Don't give them time to get safely tucked up in their fortified room and you don't have to deal with the scenario you talked about.

I'm coming from the assumption that these boys are useful to us alive but I have no doubt that once they knew what was going on, the Hussein brothers were not leaving that house except in a body bag.

As Christ said, they knocked on the door and said "Surrrender or die." It doesn't take a brain surgeon to work out what the Husseins are going to choose in that scenario! They gave them time to go upstairs, barricade themselves in and say their prayers.

What I was suggesting was that a smaller team using surprise might have been a better option. The Pakistanis got Zubaida in similar circumstances because he didn't know they were coming. Why couldn't the Americans have done a similar thing?

Look, at the end of the day, I said I don't care if they're dead. What I do care about is that you jump down my throat implying I'm a xenophobe merely because I asked if there wasn't a different way to do this. You're a bit too zealous about chilling any criticism IMHO.

[Logic]

I must say that I agree with Troll on this.

You can't give people with nothing to lose the choice to die in battle. A siege like the one we now have heard of is an inefficient way to end this and apprehend them.

I've trained for and conducted operations very similar to this one(according to the info we have) and I know that my training would have made tackle this in a different way. My training would say that a surprise attack where you use your advantage in both equipment and training would be the best solution. My training would not allow this to evolve like it did.

I was trained to deal with situations like this since my job was to gather information and take out any threat to my fellow soldiers. They posed no threat to US soldiers until US soldiers walked inside and announced they were there. That leaves me(according to my training again) with an intel gathering operation. Meaning get them alive, they can be ruffed up and injured but get them alive.

But of course, that is just my training and my experience from situations like this..................

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Troll:
And if you paid attention to what I was saying instead of attributing an agenda to me, then you would have seen that my point was precisely that it might have been better to avoid a military type operation like the one you're trained for altogether. Don't give them time to get safely tucked up in their fortified room and you don't have to deal with the scenario you talked about.

I'm coming from the assumption that these boys are useful to us alive but I have no doubt that once they knew what was going on, the Hussein brothers were not leaving that house except in a body bag.

As Christ said, they knocked on the door and said "Surrrender or die." It doesn't take a brain surgeon to work out what the Husseins are going to choose in that scenario! They gave them time to go upstairs, barricade themselves in and say their prayers.

What I was suggesting was that a smaller team using surprise might have been a better option. The Pakistanis got Zubaida in similar circumstances because he didn't know they were coming. Why couldn't the Americans have done a similar thing?

Look, at the end of the day, I said I don't care if they're dead. What I do care about is that you jump down my throat implying I'm a xenophobe merely because I asked if there wasn't a different way to do this. You're a bit too zealous about chilling any criticism IMHO.

Again, you are jumping to conclusions. This was a mansion, and they had been there 24 days. Article in the Washington Post Describing how they arrived and the size of the house. Do you think that when the soldiers knocked and demanded the surrender that Uday answered the door himself? Ridiculous! They were probably already in that fortified upstairs. More than likely, they had fortified themselves in there long before. Most likely, they would have had difficulty getting down. I had that trouble myself during one exercise. We barricaded ourselves in for the night in a MOUT house (stripped out building for training) and then we realized that we had neglected to arrange a way for us to pee. Very uncomfortable.

In any case, this is not like the Zubaida situation. As I recall, that was an apartment, not a mansion. The fields of fire for an apartment are quite a bit more limited. That let the Pakistanis walk up to the door. The troops in Iraq apparently didn't have that option. But don't let the possibility that they might have had real life deter you. Obviously, the guys in the movies could have taken these people alive, so clearly the GIs on the ground must be fvck ups.

Why not just admit that you jumped to conclusions about a subject you know nothing about? Oh, wait. What am I saying. You never admit when you are wrong. We go through the same routine every time. You accuse me of not reading your posts. Then you deny you said something. Then I go back and quote you. Then you say that you didn't really mean what you said, and that I didn't understand your special meaning of the word, etc. etc.

Let's cut that short. Troll, you are wrong on this. As T_F said, the fact that the troops offered the occupants a way to surrender makes it clear they wanted them alive. For one thing, the troops probably didn't want to go in shooting when there was a 14 year old in the house. But U&Q decided to go out in a blaze of pseudo glory. Happy to oblige.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by Logic:
I must say that I agree with Troll on this.

You can't give people with nothing to lose the choice to die in battle. A siege like the one we now have heard of is an inefficient way to end this and apprehend them.

I've trained for and conducted operations very similar to this one(according to the info we have) and I know that my training would have made tackle this in a different way. My training would say that a surprise attack where you use your advantage in both equipment and training would be the best solution. My training would not allow this to evolve like it did.

I was trained to deal with situations like this since my job was to gather information and take out any threat to my fellow soldiers. They posed no threat to US soldiers until US soldiers walked inside and announced they were there. That leaves me(according to my training again) with an intel gathering operation. Meaning get them alive, they can be ruffed up and injured but get them alive.

But of course, that is just my training and my experience from situations like this..................

OK. I'll bite. Exactly how would you have tricked them out from their heavily fortified house? What kind of surprise attack would let you get past all the fortifications and get in to the first floor? Transporter beams? Trojan horses?

[Troll]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Again, you are jumping to conclusions. This was a mansion, and they had been there 24 days.

"Tuesday 22 July, before 1000: Ground troops and armoured vehicles cordon off area around house and take up positions for operation."

200 guys go in there and start barricading the area, taking up positions around the house. They telegraphed the operation. The "let's get them alive game" was over before 10h00 when they "knock on door, and use a megaphone to demand that those thought to be inside the house come out."

As for Zubaida, I was wrong. It appears to have been a different scenario.

On the morning of Wednesday 11 September, police in Karachi went to an apartment building in search of two men. They were acting on a tip from American FBI officials, who apparently used a satellite phone conversation to pinpoint the building. Other men inside the apartment fired at the policemen, who quickly called in dozens of reinforcements. A three-hour gun battle followed, during which two militants were killed and seven policemen and a small girl were injured. The remaining suspected Al-Qa'eda members gave themselves up.

The conclusion I jumped to was that there might have been another way of doing this. Just to please you Simey, you were right and I was wrong. There was only one way of getting them and that was pounding the house to hell.

I don't think we need to have an argument anymore. They never tried another option. It's history. I agree that it's good they're dead, so do you. It probably wasn't necessary for you to call me names to get here, but there you have it the "overwhelming force" strategy right here on MacNN.