Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

mixin visuals · Nov 12, 2003, 02:32 AM

the transparent factory for the new luxury Phaeton is a work of art.

ever seen a auto factory like this before?

nayr x · Nov 12, 2003, 02:37 AM

You know what they say about people who live, uh, i mean build bugs, in glass houses...

...they should always wear clothes.

willed · Nov 12, 2003, 05:12 AM

That's freaking amazing - hardwood floors throughout the production area. It's like a Gap/Apple Store except it makes cars.

It's a shame that at that price range no one will buy it. Why have a VW when you can have an S Class / 7 Series?

korn · Nov 12, 2003, 07:33 AM

Originally posted by willed:

It's a shame that at that price range no one will buy it. Why have a VW when you can have an S Class / 7 Series?

I would, I don't want to be seen in a S class or 7 series.

willed · Nov 12, 2003, 09:18 AM

Originally posted by korn:
I would, I don't want to be seen in a S class or 7 series.

But would rather be seen in a Phaeton? Why? Is the �60,000 Phaeton more of a 'people's car'?? More of a bohemian image?

Whatever you think about the image, it is undeniable that both the S Class and the 7 are better cars. VW came into this sector needing not to make a car as good as that of the competition; it needed to make one that was better. Unfortunately it hasn't done that. Looks like someone's buying them though.

Commodus · Nov 12, 2003, 11:00 AM

It's a stealthmobile for people who still want to drive (or be driven) in luxury. The 7-series and S-class are better in some respects, but you'd better believe that they scream "VIP, shoot photos (or bullets) here please!" Not that the Phaeton is totally plain... it's just that it looks like an oversized Passat.

nayr x:

If employees go naked while working on cars, VW will have other issues besides whether or not people on the outside can see them.

Brien · Nov 12, 2003, 11:13 AM

I want a Caddy Sixteen...

Besides, VW owns SAAB and Porsche, so why are they bothering making a friggin luxury sedan?

PowerMatt · Nov 12, 2003, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by brien:
I want a Caddy Sixteen...

Besides, VW owns SAAB and Porsche, so why are they bothering making a friggin luxury sedan?

GM owns Saab. VW owns Porsche.

nayr x · Nov 12, 2003, 12:19 PM

Maybe I'm way off, but i thought Audi was owned by VW and that was their lux-o fleet? Guess not. (I'd much rather drive an audi than a VW) The phaeton does look neat, but in more of an inflated jetta way... i think someone with that much money would be more inclined to spring for the status symbol of owning a merc/bmw/audi... I think VW i think "Janey's sweet sixteen present," not "CEO of bling bling"

OldManMac · Nov 12, 2003, 01:23 PM

Originally posted by nayr x:
Maybe I'm way off, but i thought Audi was owned by VW and that was their lux-o fleet? Guess not. (I'd much rather drive an audi than a VW) The phaeton does look neat, but in more of an inflated jetta way... i think someone with that much money would be more inclined to spring for the status symbol of owning a merc/bmw/audi... I think VW i think "Janey's sweet sixteen present," not "CEO of bling bling"

You're not off; VW does own Audi, as well as Porsche, and a number of other brands more known in countries other than the U. S. VW is moving Audi in the direction of a sports sedan category.

Eug · Nov 12, 2003, 01:24 PM

Originally posted by willed:
That's freaking amazing - hardwood floors throughout the production area. It's like a Gap/Apple Store except it makes cars.

Why would you consider hardwood floors in the production area?

Or am I misunderstanding you?

Timo · 02:23 PM

Originally posted by brien:
I want a Caddy Sixteen...

Besides, VW owns SAAB and Porsche, so why are they bothering making a friggin luxury sedan?

GM owns Saab. Maybe you're thinking about Audi.

I read recently that VW has studied who buys what marque and according to their research very few buyers cross from VW to Audi, despite how logical such a jump might appear to people who know those cars well. So this Phaeton is an attempt to keep one segment of VW buyers who want luxe plus (who've outgrown, say, a Passat) to stay in the family, since currently they're going to BMW or Merc.

Seems odd to me that VW would want to be the GM of Europe -- trying to make something for nearly every car-buying segment -- but then again the car and the factory look cool to me.

I think the Phateon appeal is understated: this is a sleeper. If you want that bling bling you're going with the movie stereotype Merc or Bimmer anyway...seems smart to me to not complete with the stereotypes, but approach cracking that market obliquely.

BTW Phaeton sales in the US are dismal.

Timo · Nov 12, 2003, 02:23 PM

The transparent factory: http://www.glaesernemanufaktur.de/

willed · Nov 12, 2003, 03:29 PM

Originally posted by Eug:
Why would you consider hardwood floors in the production area?

Or am I misunderstanding you?

I've no idea what you're talking about... I was referring to the fact that in the pictures in the link, it shows the production area, which had hardwood floors. I commented that this reminded me more of an Apple Store than a factory...

As to the other comments:

Saab is indeed owned by GM, but why it came up in this thread I have no idea - it doesn't make luxury saloons.

Porsche is owned by VW, but in what way would the Phaeton compete with any Porsche products??

Audi is perhaps the most direct competition for the Phaeton - the A8 is the 'curve ball' (or whatever you foreigners say

) of luxury cars. However, unlike the Phaeton, it is arguably the best car in the world (many are saying it's better than the ageing S Class)

And Timo - it seems that VW already is the GM of Europe: it owns Skoda (cheap family cars, good quality); Seat (being repositioned as sporty and cheap); VW (family, predictable, reliable, mid-upper market); Audi (stylish, Vorsprung Durch Technik etc, not cheap); Bently (crazy-ass expensive, classy) and of course Lamborgini ('nuff said). Is there a single market area left? The Phaeton blurs the line between VW and Audi, and they will not sell many.

Edit: oh, and they also own Bugatti

Sherwin · Nov 12, 2003, 03:58 PM

Originally posted by willed:
Why have a VW when you can have an S Class / 7 Series?

The 7 is battered. Love the old one, wouldn't touch a new one.

Benz are going the same way - I just copped a look at their new corporate nose and it's as battered as the 7.

The Phaeton is at least subtle. It's either one of those or an A8 - no other choice.

------

For those wondering what the Phaeton's purpose in life is... Image transfer. They make the Phaeton, people start to look. People then start to look at what they can afford and suddenly the Passats look reasonably nice.

Pischetsrieder (on why it looks like a large Passat): "The sole and only purpose for this car is to support VW's identity and image. If it looked radically different it might sell more but it wouldn't serve its purpose".

Timo · Nov 12, 2003, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by willed:
And Timo - it seems that VW already is the GM of Europe: it owns Skoda (cheap family cars, good quality); Seat (being repositioned as sporty and cheap); VW (family, predictable, reliable, mid-upper market); Audi (stylish, Vorsprung Durch Technik etc, not cheap); Bently (crazy-ass expensive, classy) and of course Lamborgini ('nuff said). Is there a single market area left? The Phaeton blurs the line between VW and Audi, and they will not sell many.

eh, my point, such that I had one, is that VW's own marque (not VW Group's many marques) is looking more and more like a GM marque -- something like Chevy plus Cadillac. Odd.

mixin visuals · Nov 13, 2003, 05:10 AM

Originally posted by willed:
I've no idea what you're talking about... I was referring to the fact that in the pictures in the link, it shows the production area, which had hardwood floors. I commented that this reminded me more of an Apple Store than a factory...

As to the other comments:

Saab is indeed owned by GM, but why it came up in this thread I have no idea - it doesn't make luxury saloons.

Porsche is owned by VW, but in what way would the Phaeton compete with any Porsche products??

Audi is perhaps the most direct competition for the Phaeton - the A8 is the 'curve ball' (or whatever you foreigners say ) of luxury cars. However, unlike the Phaeton, it is arguably the best car in the world (many are saying it's better than the ageing S Class)

And Timo - it seems that VW already is the GM of Europe: it owns Skoda (cheap family cars, good quality); Seat (being repositioned as sporty and cheap); VW (family, predictable, reliable, mid-upper market); Audi (stylish, Vorsprung Durch Technik etc, not cheap); Bently (crazy-ass expensive, classy) and of course Lamborgini ('nuff said). Is there a single market area left? The Phaeton blurs the line between VW and Audi, and they will not sell many.

Edit: oh, and they also own Bugatti

don't forget that audi is owned by vw too. so they are purposely making a market for vw against the audi a4 - a8

they will sell a lot i bet

Powerbook · Nov 13, 2003, 06:27 AM

I say it's looking great. Especially outside Germany they have a real chance of breaking into DC/BMW/Audi territory!

PB.

Sherwin · Nov 13, 2003, 07:51 AM

Originally posted by Powerbook:
Especially outside Germany they have a real chance of breaking into DC/BMW/Audi territory!

I repeat:
VW don't care if they don't sell the Phaeton in big numbers. It's a brand showcase exercise to sell more Passats (i.e. just under the A4 pricing bracket). That's straight out of the mouth of the VW Group's boss.

Powerbook · Nov 13, 2003, 10:02 AM

Originally posted by Sherwin:
I repeat:
VW don't care if they don't sell the Phaeton in big numbers. It's a brand showcase exercise to sell more Passats (i.e. just under the A4 pricing bracket). That's straight out of the mouth of the VW Group's boss.

??? That's not what I have heard in any interview of Pischetsrieder I have read. In the contrary, they fired some manager over the underperforming sales of the Phaeton. The show-off thing is this Bugatti 1001 PS monster.

PB.

Sherwin · Nov 13, 2003, 10:21 AM

Originally posted by Powerbook:
??? That's not what I have heard in any interview of Pischetsrieder I have read. In the contrary, they fired some manager over the underperforming sales of the Phaeton.

It's what Pischetsrieder was saying about five weeks before he took over from Piech (just as the first Phaeton press cars were rolling out, IIRC). He might have changed his opinion since then though?

I don't get why the manager was fired. I mean, they didn't expect to sell great numbers of anything with a VW badge for that price, did they? If they did, I'd suggest that there's a few more peeps in the organisation who need firing.

Makes more sense that they actually are using it as a brand enforcement thing so as not to go up against the A8. Even the new factory design smacks of "look at what we can do". But then they're coming out with that supercar jobbie (not the Bugatti, the VW branded one) which is going against the Lambo models. No, they're not making any sense to me either.

Mrs_Vod[k]a · Nov 13, 2003, 10:49 AM

reverse snobbery-- I love it! I'll buy one of those babies when I hit 33-- which is a long way away.

Kilbey · Nov 13, 2003, 11:22 AM

Originally posted by Mrs_Vod[k]a:
reverse snobbery-- I love it! I'll buy one of those babies when I hit 33-- which is a long way away.

Turning 33 is closer than you think. I turn 33 next year. Seems like only a few short years ago when I was 20 I thought 30 was light years away.

Back on topic.

I worked at Buick City in Flint, Michigan and that plant was old, but MAN, was it clean! They polished the floors every night, everyone made an attempt to sweep their work area often. The inspection areas were the cleanest. Like an operating room or something.

And on the subject of hardwood floors. Is is simply cheaper in the long run to use wood panels like they have. Manufacturers are always using different buildings for different purposes and the ability to change the configuration is a big plus. One of the many reasons Buick City closed is the fact that it would have cost too much to retool the factory to make a different model such as a truck or SUV. GM calls plants than can make many different makes and models "Flex Body Shops" Lastly, VW has stolen many manufacturing ideas from GM and has paid dearly in court for it.

mixin visuals · Nov 13, 2003, 08:20 PM

never been to a plant, but i wouldn't mind seeing inside

Mrs_Vod[k]a · Nov 13, 2003, 08:37 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kilbey:
[B]Turning 33 is closer than you think. I turn 33 next year. Seems like only a few short years ago when I was 20 I thought 30 was light years away.

Dont say that! I'm young, stupid, and I prefer to live that way. Forever.

talisker · Nov 13, 2003, 09:55 PM

Originally posted by Mrs_Vod[k]a:
reverse snobbery-- I love it! I'll buy one of those babies when I hit 33-- which is a long way away.

Strikes me as being a car more suited to those over 50 at least. Not a young person's car (and seeing as I'm 34 I defninitely still consider 33 young)