[iWrite]

Everyone simmer down...

I'm making Nestle Tollhouse morsel double chocolate chip cookies...

I'm going to serve Coca-Cola with 'em...

Anyone want some?



(Quandarry, Sherwin, Kitten...where ARE you?)

[effgee]

*raiseshand* "Yesssss, please"

But only if I get a cup of hot chocolate instead of the Coke, camomile tea might be a good idea for those not into dairy ...



*dragsoldbonestobed*

[nobitacu]

It really doesn't matter if people like Pepsi or not. Apple by teaming up with Pepsi for iTunes Music Store is the best thing it could of done right now. Not to mention getting more people to use iTunes and it's music store, and also get people to look at Apple's sites while they are getting iTunes and than see the Apple Computers, in which than might get them to also buy a computer on the way out or at least think about it. For both Apple and Pepsi, this is a win win situation. People will still buy Pepsi even though they hate Pepsi because they want to win the free songs, even though for that, I don't see the reason to it, since you do pay $1 for a pepsi, and songs on iTunes Music Store cost .99 so... for those people who will buy pepsi and than not drink it but just take the free song... they are reallly still paying for the song than...

Oh well, doesn't matter, this is a great partnership for both companies.

Ming

[mitchell_pgh]

I'm holding off for this...

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally posted by effgee:
But the mere fact that you would yell at someone (see below) for taking apart an existing design for fun/educational/experimental/whatever purposes shows quite clearly that you don't have the faintest idea about anything even remotely resembling visual and/or interactive communication.

you know i'm right.

you don't know any attributes/guidelines asked of the designer by his supervisors and you attempted to critique his design. that to me is snobby behavior. especially looking at all those wild presumptions you made about them too.

" If you are a designer - have your boss fire your sorry butt, if you are self-employed close shop - you're going to go out of business anyway, if you're a student thinking about a career in design - don't."

why don't you just come out and call me an assh0le? because if you were trying to diss me... that was kind of sad. even for the internet.



(and my "shut up" comment was to everyone � look at my post count. I have nearly 3000 posts and have been here for years. You think i don't know most of these bastards from AIM, OMGWTFBBQ, email in addition to the daily banter in these forums? only morons argue on the internet)

[iWrite]

You're calling me a bastard?

[ghost_flash]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
you know i'm right.

why don't you just come out and call me an assh0le? because if you were trying to diss me... that was kind of sad. even for the internet.



(and my "shut up" comment was to everyone � look at my post count. I have nearly 3000 posts and have been here for years. You think i don't know most of these bastards from AIM, OMGWTFBBQ, email in addition to the daily banter in these forums? only morons argue on the internet)

Your post count really matters little to me.
What happens at 3k? Do you get godlike
intellect and the right to post what you want?

I only have about, well I didn't check so even
if I had 1/2 of yours does that make me a
half-whit?

I think effgee had a great design and it's better
than what Apple had on their site. If you
disagree, then I guess that is your oppinion.

This is me moving along.

[dillerX]

eggs. lol.

[quandarry]

back in my spider hole i had the pepsi cola, but now i have the great satan beer.



having a great time, i wish in the name of allah you were here.

[effgee]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
you know i'm right. ...

You are right? How are you right? What reasons were you able to give to prove your point aside from:

• calling people "whining mornons"
• betting that the experience of Apple employees "of graphic/web design surpass all of ours by years and years"
• calling me a "design snob"
• telling people to "shut up"
• stating that "many insights go into that image before it is published beyond just design."

None. Not a single reason, not one. You didn't contribute the first thing to this discussion.

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
... you don't know any attributes/guidelines asked of the designer by his supervisors and you attempted to critique his design. that to me is snobby behavior. ...

You are absolutely right - that is exactly the reason why I never stated any of my ideas and/or criticisms matter-of-factly but always phrased them along the lines of "imho", "could", etc., etc. I also didn't call anything "wrong", "stupid" or "crap" but intentionally said that from my point of view there's "room for improvement".

I am not a "snob" because I didn't diss anything done by Apple - I merely voiced my opinion. Moreover, I never - not once - made a factual statement that my criticism and/or idea was "right" or "better" than any of the things I was refering to.

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
... especially looking at all those wild presumptions you made about them too.

The points I've been trying to make might seem like wild presumptions to you - they're not. Anyone with a few years of experience in any agency environment will be able to tell you the same things. Not everybody will agree with me - they neither have to nor are they obliged to do so - but aside from statements like "I don like this color", there are many widely accepted guidelines that make up design work.

Does everybody have to stick to them all the time? No! Is it sometimes a good idea to leave the beaten path and try something new/provocative? Absolutely! But in order to be able to bend/break those "rules" and still create a great product you have to know them first. Carson comes to mind as a good example - he bent/broke the rules in some of the slickest ways possible to create something that hadn't been done before.

To make a long story short, my "presumptions" are none - I have worked in this industry for a very long time, had my work critized a lot more often than you might think and I do have quite a bit of experience critizing that of others in a constructive manner. Constructively critisizing the work of others, taking it apart and reassembling it in different ways to learn, experiment and/or make a point is the single best way of learning and/or discussing design work - has always been that way, will always be that way. Everybody in the design industry does it and it's a good thing. Take my word for it - or don't - I really don't care.

There's nothing special or snobby about this - it just comes with the trade. When your car's engine sounds odd you take it to a mechanic and there's a good chance that he'll know what's wrong with it simply by listening to its sound. To you it just sounds weird, to him the sound tells him where to begin looking. Same thing in design - what looked "odd" about Apple's home page to some posters, is relatively clear to any designer with a bit of experience - he knows where to look for the details (e.g., imagery, typography, layout, etc.) that create this overall "odd" feeling others get when they look at it. It's not special, it's not snobby - it's a matter of having done something repeatedly over a long time - practice, nothing else.

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
why don't you just come out and call me an assh0le? because if you were trying to diss me... that was kind of sad. even for the internet.

Easy answer - because I don't think you are an asshole. If I thought you were I would have called you one, it's as simple as that.

I do think however, that at first you were trying to rightfully critize the initial post in this thread - because the poster simply said "it's crap" without giving any reasons as to why that might or might not be the case. But then you unfairly included every single person who was simply trying to expand the initial (dumb) criticism towards a somewhat interesting discussion into your criticism, which by then had turned into you frothing at the mouth and thoughtlessly attacking everyone who didn't agree with your opinion.

In case you don't remember, you were the one insulting people in this thread without prior provocation - that makes you the sad figure here, no one else is to blame for that.

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
and my "shut up" comment was to everyone � look at my post count. I have nearly 3000 posts and have been here for years

Frankly, I don't give a crap what your post count is or long you've been here. You began your post with "shut up" and proceeded to single me out by name. And that is supposed to imply you were talking to the group of posters in this thread? That's preposterous.

There's a universal thing called Netiquette that you might want to read up on. You know what - forget about Netiquette - try that sometime in real life. A group of people discussing something, you butt in and your second comment contains the sentence "you whining morons" - take a wild guess how they might react to you. You can't really be that thick.

You are not right. In fact, you couldn't be an iota more wrong. You have no idea what you're talking about and yet you feel the need to attack other people without provocation and without reading or trying to understand the contents of what they posted prior to you attacking them.

You know what I really have a problem with? Not the fact that you don't know a whole lot about design - that's perfectly fine and there's a shitload of stuff that I don't know the first thing about. The thing that does tick me off, though is the fact that you have no idea what you're talking about and are unwilling/unable to admit to that fact.

[chrisutley]

Don't forget the success of the iPod increases the likelihood that Apple will be around a long time, and be able to cope with the ups and downs of the computer business.

Music is part of the digital hub, a key component of Apple's marketing strategy over the last few years. One guy's "rubbish", is another guy's fortune I guess.

Originally posted by hippyhop:
No I AM NOT A TROLL, I am an avid mac professional user/fan. I am just getting a bit sick of all this 'music' rubbish.

Sure we all love music, and the iPod is a fantastic product, but enough already, back to the computers, back to the G5 revision, back to the G5 iMac !

Come on Apple remember why we really love you !

[Apple Pro Underwear]

effgee,

this is such a stupid thing to argue over. my basic point is still valid to me: how can you criticsize another designer when you don't know a thing about the parameters of the job. Your post was the most pretentious because you made a bunch of presumptions. you might as well be a forensic graphic designer. CSI:MacNN � when moofy design goes bad effgee comes and dissects the evidence to second guess qualified designers.


ghost_flash,

you missed the whole point bud. i never used my 3k posts to say i was smarter...i said it because the peepz in this forum are my homies. i have earned the right to be friendly with them if anything.

[iWrite]

Personally, I think you owe everyone an apology for labeling us "bastards."

Seriously.



About post counts, they disappear once you're banned for calling people names, using expletives, and being overly rude.



Everyone disagrees -- or agrees to disagree.

Like I said yesterday, if someone is particularly annoying to you in a particular thread, take your ball and go home. In other words, ignore them.

[effgee]

Apple Pro Underwear,

It is not a stupid thing to argue over - as long as it's done in a constructive fashion by people exchanging actual reasons for why they think something's good or something could be done better. It is a stupid thing however, to call people "whining morons" or tell them to "shut up" when one isn't even attempting to understand the whys and hows and on top of that, continue to attack them even after they gave you perfectly valid reasons for what they did.

The point here is not whether or not you think "forensic design" is good or a bad idea - people a whole lot smarter than you and I together have been doing this for centuries and it has proven to be a very useful approach. While you are entitled to your own opinion - it really is irrelevant. When was the last time you told a plumber he couldn't use pliers because you think it's a stupid tool? That is exactly what you did here - you had no idea that taking apart/reassembling designs is a perfectly fine and commonly used tool for the job and yet you had to bash those using it.

If you had chosen to enter this discussion with a statement like "Interesting what you guys have to say but I disagree because of reasons a), b), c) and d)" - I would have been more than happy to try to explain and/or discuss the issue at hand. But since you chose to call me (and others) "whining morons", "a snob" and told me to "shut up" you effectively disqualified anything constructive you might have had to contribute and can't really be surprised when someone presents you with an appropriate answer. You deserved it.

And iWrite just made the perfect suggestion - if you're overly frustrated with what I wrote above, vent, get it out - and then let's be done with this.

(edited because I can't spell worth a doo-doo)

[Apple Pro Underwear]

i refuse! i did nothing wrong!

this is the lounge. the thread title is "apple.com homepage hacked?" for god sakes!

gimme a break, i behave myself in other forums here when i should but this one is another classic � Apple does something, MacNN users start to whine thread.

i have every right to call you people on it. (before i even participated in this thread, the tone was set by the first few posts: this thread is not some high and mighty discussion about graphic design as you seem to think it is)

[iWrite]

What IS that YOU are drinking? (Is it morning wherever you are? What's in your coffee or tea, eh?)



You called people "bastards."

As he said, that's not good "netiquette," at the very least.

[york28]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
shut up!

i never said it was good, i never said it was great, i merely suggested you morons stop whining

if you really want to do something about it, look at the image. take notes on how you would make it better and when the opportunity presents itself (your job, freelance, your personal website), then you can apply your knowledge on what you feel is quality design and layout.


effgee, i can't believe you're such a design snob that you would break apart Apple.com's homepage pepsi image. no one cares what you think. many insights go into that image before it is published beyond just design.

The only problem is the fact that effgee's mockup actually does look better on a web page. He's not being a snob, just pointing out that the design might have looked cleaner if it had been carried out a different way. He's not saying that anyone is not a good designer, he just had a different idea that might have not been thought of before.

For all we actually know, some big wig somewhere decided what to use. But in any case, there is no need to defend a computer company because their web site has an image that could be improved.

Apple is just a company, and it f*cks up all the time. Chill out man, effgee was being constructive, and you had to get all tempermental. It was just a suggestion, and a good one at that.

[Synotic]

Hrm...

http://www.apple.com/

Anyone see what I see?

[Lateralus]

I'm with the 'Enough with the music stuff already!' crowd. Yes, I do feel that Apple's decision to enter the music world as they have is great, and probably one of the best decisions they have made in years.

However... I think you can only push the music so much. Apple is now associated with music in the minds of most Americans, job done for the most part, great. But selling songs on iTunes and a butt load of iPods isn't going to grow marketshare or help solidify the Mac as an enduring platform.

I can only imagine what would be happening if Apple had put as much money and effort into advertising the G5, or even just OS X as they have into advertising the iPod and iTunes... But when was the last time you saw a G5 commercial? There was one and it hasn't been on in months. And I can't recall ever seeing an OS X commercial.

[wataru]

Everybody shut the up!

And I don't care if you guys are my homies or not.

[parkds]

Originally posted by Synotic:
Hrm...

http://www.apple.com/

Anyone see what I see?

Um......not sure if anyone saw Synotic's post with all the bickering going on, but the new image on the Apple homepage is almost identical to Effgee's mockup.

[hippyhop]

Originally posted by Synotic:
Hrm...

http://www.apple.com/

Anyone see what I see?

Oh yes! Apple/design agency ****ed up big time on this one !

[effgee]

<advance apologies for being gleeful> ...
Heheee! Anyone else think that Apple Pro Underwear owes me an apology and that Apple (their agency) owes me a job?
</gleeful>

Just kidding - I'm just happy that someone over there (Apple/their agency) saw the mistake and fixed it ... even though the perspective is a little bit too steep for my taste. But that's just me - and that new image is definitely an improvement.

[urban]

This is the weirdest thing.
The Apple people actually adopted the idea !!!

Wow.....

Originally posted by Synotic:
Hrm...

http://www.apple.com/

Anyone see what I see?

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by ryju:
Pepsi is gross. Ass juice.

Ditto, I second that.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

like i said pointless � the creative staff at Apple/Pepsi probably had this designed way beforehand.

i'm going to take this lesson and file it away in my brain like i said in my earlier posts despite how i feel about it. (in this case, if you have 2 decent layouts that are similar � maybe save one for a premiere of the product vs. the pre-sale)

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally posted by effgee:
<advance apologies for being gleeful> ...
Heheee! Anyone else think that Apple Pro Underwear owes me an apology and that Apple (their agency) owes me a job?
</gleeful>

why would i owe you an apology? i was the one who was right!

i said it was pointless �_and i was right. apple/pepsi had this planned from the start.

your pointless rambling was exactly that � pointless last week and especially pointless now because all your criticsim of them turned out to be completely false, completely guessed and a complete a waste of time.

you feel all high and mighty because they used something similar to your comment but in reality look at your post:

"Hence my suspicion that this Pepsi graphic was created by a designer (ad agency?) who might be a print-/advertising-genius, but doesn't seem to be as fluent when it comes to interaction design."

it turns out they're plenty smart now right? are you going to be so quick to judge other seasoned professionals now that you have a big foot in your mouth?

[ghost_flash]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
why would i owe you an apology? i was the one who was right!

i said it was pointless �_and i was right. apple/pepsi had this planned from the start.

your pointless rambling was exactly that � pointless last week and especially pointless now because all your criticsim of them turned out to be completely false, completely guessed and a complete a waste of time.

you feel all high and mighty because they used something similar to your comment but in reality look at your post:

it turns out they're plenty smart now right? are you going to be so quick to judge other seasoned professionals now that you have a big foot in your mouth?

Yo, A-PU, why not chill out.

Why would you even consider raining on his
little parade? I mean, I am 99 percent certain
he was joking about any apology. It was a
joke, Ha-ha, funny.

Lighten up.

I think it is cool they used something similar.
Planned? or not? It has been my experience with large companies, that not all is planned
and all that is, doesn't always work. They often
find themselves scrambling for a better idea
and when one comes from heaven, they grab
and use it.

Trust me.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

on the internet, my posts sound serious but i am mildly joking as well


but if you can believe it, i like effgee, and my tone and sentiment in my crib right now is actually really relaxed.

[ghost_flash]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
on the internet, my posts sound serious but i am mildly joking as well


but if you can believe it, i like effgee, and my tone and sentiment in my crib right now is actually really relaxed.

I was wondering about that.
My crib be chillin too.

-Peace

[torsoboy]

That's awsome.. looks like they took effgee's idea and ran with it. hope you get some compensation for that one.

Apple Pro Underwear, your a fool. Can't own up to anything. But what am I saying, you have alomst 3000 post, and i only have 50 or so. I must be wrong.

[redJag]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
on the internet, my posts sound serious but i am mildly joking as well


but if you can believe it, i like effgee, and my tone and sentiment in my crib right now is actually really relaxed.

I'm an idiot that just made an ass out of myself, failed to back-pedal, and still can't admit I was wrong.

[iNeusch]

Originally posted by John C. Smith:
the people who made gigli probably know more about cinematography than us, but it still sucked big time

true

[Apple Pro Underwear]

Originally posted by torsoboy:
That's awsome.. looks like they took effgee's idea and ran with it. hope you get some compensation for that one.

Apple Pro Underwear, your a fool. Can't own up to anything. But what am I saying, you have alomst 3000 post, and i only have 50 or so. I must be wrong.

i'm not exactly sure what you mean by that statement...

i never said that any of the "suggestions" sucked. so i have nothing to own up to.

my whole point in this thread is that you should have a lil more respect for profession designers (especially ones that are obviously skilled). who knows what they had to go through to accomplish what they did. for us to sort of critique their public works with no idea of the process and goals is sort of disrespectful.

and i was right in this sense because they had the design all figured out from ths start. (let's be serious, the notion of them "[taking] effgee's idea and ran with it" is crazy. kind of like me copying a Picasso and painting an extra eye somewhere)

[effgee]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
... you feel all high and mighty ...

Heh. I guess you could read that into my words. That's also the reason why I wrote: "just kidding". You really crack me up.

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
... the creative staff at Apple/Pepsi probably had this designed way beforehand.

<tinfoilhat>
Confess already - you work for Chiat/Day, right?
</tinfoilhat>



Up to this point I was almost getting sympathetic again ... but no, you just had to keep bickering ...

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
... my whole point in this thread is that you should have a lil more respect for profession designers (especially ones that are obviously skilled). who knows what they had to go through to accomplish what they did. for us to sort of critique their public works with no idea of the process and goals is sort of disrespectful. ...

Oh puh-a-lease. What a load of utter, complete and total crap.

Either you are a designer - in which case you obviously seem to be under the (sorely) mistaken impression that somehow you're special - then let me tell you this: "Sorry, you're not."

Or, for some incomprehensible reason, you have a special place in your heart in which you hold dearest the profession of graphic design and those who practice (note the usage of the verb practice) it - in that case I'm sorry to inform you: "Graphic design is not special and neither are those who practice it. Their crap smells like anyone else's (I must know, I clean toilets at local ad agency for a living and they sometimes let me play with their old Mac) and you definitely should seek the help of someone well-versed in human psychology"

[Apple Pro Underwear]

1. i'm not really angry at you or was totally serious at all, i already said i like you. after ghost_flash told me to cool it. in which we both conceded we were just chillin'. internet posts can sometimes be conveyed as "angry" or "serious" even though they are not.

2. i knew you would accuse me of being a hippocrit!!!! but my assumption has basis. nobody is going to come to work on sunday much less superbowl sunday, so obviously they made it beforehand. from my web experience in a corporate environment i bet they had them all approved and delivered it to the web programming department and had them do it

3. the thing i am trying to say is that I AM NOT SPECIAL ...yet. I am young and still learning (but still a professional in the field) and that's why even though i have an opinion i opt to learn from my elders in design rather than talk outta my ass. Respect.

4. effgee, if you happen to be a senior graphic designer with experience and skill on par or better than someone qualified to work for Apple....Then i would think that it would be ok for a peer to critique another's work. SO are you?

[effgee]

Originally posted by Apple Pro Underwear:
... 4. effgee, if you happen to be ... *snip* ... SO are you?

Two things:

a) I value the (relative) privacy of this medium.
b) I hate nothing more than the old "my sandcastle is bigger than yours" routine.

Therefore, the answer to your question would be a simple yes.

I could go on and write another three pages about why your question (#4) is of little relevance to the topic at hand but we'll put that on the backburner until you arrive at a place where you're actually able to shed the tunnelvision. Let me just say this much - and this is neither sarcastic nor a personal attack on you but absolutely truthful and honest on my part - the lack of flexibility put on display by you in some parts of your posts will break your neck - professionally, that is.

[Apple Pro Underwear]

1. i'll take your word for it then. good job on the critique there buddy! you previewed for us what apple was going to do!

2. professionally, i am rather well liked because i am very modest with my work and accept criticism very well. please don't judge me by what i do here at macNN. this is purely entertainment to me. i don't speak in ebonics at work or post weirdo photoshop images there either so don't assume you know me by what i write here.

but one of my mantras in life is: learn learn learn rather than bitch bitch bitch

[effgee]

Apple Pro Underwear,

One last thing on this (secondary) topic from me ... the "break your neck" metaphor was not intended as a hint towards whether or not you're a likeable guy, but as pointer regarding the way you (re-)presented the graphic design profession in this thread. We (designers), like it or not, are at the end of the food chain - always.

At your agency, for your clients, and ultimetely for your clients' clients, you create a brand image - and everything you do shapes that image - be it in a positive or in a negative way.

If a certain number of your clients' clients (= critical mass) voice their displeasure over your work, you're in deep doo-doo. The recipient(s) of your work will almost never be able to articulate why they don't like something, usually they just label it as "weird" or "crap". Then it's your job (referring to the agency) to find out why that's the case - and labelling them as "whiners" or "disrespectful" sure isn't going to improve your situation. Neither is ignoring them and pointing towards their (perceived) ignorance and overall lack of knowledge of "how design works". They won't care - as soon as a certain threshold is reached, they'll simply stop buying your clients' products, which in return leaves you (the agency) in the undesireable position that your client won't have any money to pay his agency bills.

My point being that while it's impossible to turn 100% of your target audience into perfectly happy campers, it is always a good idea to listen to what each and every one of them has to say. Regardless of how much or little reasoning he/she can provide for his/her sentiment. If you ignore these folks long enough, it will ultimately cost you your livelihood - e.g., break your neck. Graphic designers, be it with or without turtleneck, are not artists - ever. First and foremost we provide a service to our clients that helps them to make money. The "secret" of a good designer/agency is the ability to walk that (extremely) fine line between art and commerce - how far can you push any given project artistically without it having a negative impact on your clients' bottom line. Anything else is a load of bull disseminated by people who can only survive their 9-5 by lying into their own pocket. Yes there's "exceptions" - niche markets, B2B vs. B2C, etc., etc. but in the end - only varying in degree - it always boils down to this simple truth. We're craftspeople (albeit white-collar ones) and we're not working towards winning a golden lion in Cannes or receiving that honorable mention in CommArts - if we're "real" good and "real" lucky that'll be the icing on our cake.

Also, I do of course know that this thread is neither a representative or a realistic sample of the target audience we're talking about in regards to Apple's/Pepsi's campaign - I took the initial post (which simply dissed the image) as a fun challenge and practice for what I do every day - analyze why a person (member of the target audience) perceives something in a certain way - positive or negative - and attempt to fill his/her plain statement (be it "it rocks" or "that's crap") with possible reasons for his/her emotional reaction.

Since I already sound like my uncle (whom I don't particularly care for, btw) this seems to be a good point to conclude this post before people's toe nails are starting to curl of boredom.

[John C. Smith]

Doesn't matter anymore, since Apple changed their homepage design

[effgee]

Originally posted by John C. Smith:
Doesn't matter anymore, since Apple changed their homepage design

*snicker* you didn't really read the thread, did you?