[zen jihad]

Originally posted by benb:
The real issue here is not whether any man after Christ can comment on His ministry. Any man can. The issue is whether or not Muhammed agreed with Christ.

No. I wasn't going into a long post about Muhammed, I used him as an example, orginally, about how people could be deceived by Satan. that's all.

Did Muhammed preach faith in Christ for salvation? No. The Gnostics? No. The Judaizers? No. Did the Apostles? Yes.

They all "expounded" on Christ, yes. But the Apostles are the only ones who did not add to Him. There is your difference.

I'm not interested in the difference, I know them. the point was, to highlight that others can easily use the argument of Satan deceiving people whenever it suits them.

I'm not trying to post about Muhammed's view on Christ. Please go read what me and DJ were talking about.

[djohnson]

Originally posted by phoenixboy:
amazing, yes.

the "garden" of eden story started probably as a persian/babylonian "creation myth". like so many stories, the hebrews "borrowed" it and incorporated it into their own faith.

it is a neat story. but there are many other creation myths. almost every religion has one.

Again with the conspiracies? Since we do not have every single record from long long ago, there is no way to tell which story who borrowed from who. This is why it is called faith. Instead of saying that the Bible borrowed from everyone else, what if everyone else borrowed from the Bible?

[zen jihad]

Originally posted by djohnson:
Again with the conspiracies? Since we do not have every single record from long long ago, there is no way to tell which story who borrowed from who. This is why it is called faith. Instead of saying that the Bible borrowed from everyone else, what if everyone else borrowed from the Bible?

Exactly, faith. For those of us who don't have this particular faith, we can always examine the texts as we see fit, and draw conclusions.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by djohnson:
Again with the conspiracies? Since we do not have every single record from long long ago, there is no way to tell which story who borrowed from who. This is why it is called faith. Instead of saying that the Bible borrowed from everyone else, what if everyone else borrowed from the Bible?

And since we have no idea when the religion that Abraham believed in was started, one cannot say it was borrowed from anything.

[djohnson]

Originally posted by zen jihad:
Exactly, faith. For those of us who don't have this particular faith, we can always examine the texts as we see fit, and draw conclusions.

Faith is one of my spiritual gifts. It goes beyond just thinking something is right to knowing without a shadow of a doubt that it is right. If you try and draw conclusions, you must assume and assuming is a bad thing to do.

[Zimphire]

If no faith existed, either would free will really.

[zen jihad]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
And since we have no idea when the religion that Abraham believed in was started, one cannot say it was borrowed from anything.

Conversely, no-on can really say what Abraham, or Avram, really believed in when he lived. We only have texts written much later that say it was monotheism, yet, many would dispute that, and even go as far as saying he was a myth too. Who knows.

[zen jihad]

Originally posted by djohnson:
Faith is one of my spiritual gifts. It goes beyond just thinking something is right to knowing without a shadow of a doubt that it is right. If you try and draw conclusions, you must assume and assuming is a bad thing to do.

Depends on your faith. I'm sure you have drawn conclusions as to other people's faiths based on your faith, and assumptions.

[phoenixboy]

Originally posted by djohnson:
Again with the conspiracies? Since we do not have every single record from long long ago, there is no way to tell which story who borrowed from who. This is why it is called faith. Instead of saying that the Bible borrowed from everyone else, what if everyone else borrowed from the Bible?

at this point i am not willing to discuss anything futher with you. good luck.

[djohnson]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
And since we have no idea when the religion that Abraham believed in was started, one cannot say it was borrowed from anything.

Maybe it was here from the beginning? I think it is hilarious when people try to disprove the Bible stories by saying they borrowed from elsewhere. Never once I have heard something that says the Bible was the originating story. Ok well I have heard it but always on Religious shows or radio.

[djohnson]

Originally posted by zen jihad:
Depends on your faith. I'm sure you have drawn conclusions as to other people's faiths based on your faith, and assumptions.

I don't have to make assumptions on other peoples faith. It is not mine to judge.

[zen jihad]

Originally posted by djohnson:
Maybe it was here from the beginning? I think it is hilarious when people try to disprove the Bible stories by saying they borrowed from elsewhere. Never once I have heard something that says the Bible was the originating story. Ok well I have heard it but always on Religious shows or radio.

Isn't it hilarious seeing people use Bible stories to explain events that happened long before the Bible was even written down?

[zen jihad]

Originally posted by djohnson:
I don't have to make assumptions on other peoples faith. It is not mine to judge.

Fair enough.

[djohnson]

Originally posted by phoenixboy:
at this point i am not willing to discuss anything futher with you. good luck.

Just because I said that other stories were taken from the Bible?

[djohnson]

Originally posted by zen jihad:
Isn't it hilarious seeing people use Bible stories to explain events that happened long before the Bible was even written down?

I don't think so. I believe that what happened in the Bible is what happened. Just becuase the Bible was not written down does not mean that is was not passed down from generation to generation. Like I said, we have no real records from the beginning of time, so you must take the Bible at its word. Either the entire thing is true or it is the biggest lie of all time.

[zen jihad]

Originally posted by djohnson:
I don't think so. I believe that what happened in the Bible is what happened. Just becuase the Bible was not written down does not mean that is was not passed down from generation to generation. Like I said, we have no real records from the beginning of time, so you must take the Bible at its word. Either the entire thing is true or it is the biggest lie of all time.

That's fine, but it goes both ways, so you can't be surprised when people come to the conclusion that the Bible isn't remotely an accurate recording of what happened.

[phoenixboy]

Originally posted by djohnson:
Just because I said that other stories were taken from the Bible?

djohnson,

do you have any idea how much research has been put into this subject matter over the last couple of centuries alone?

i don't know where you live, but i am pretty sure they have a library in your area.

there is absolutely nothing wrong with challenging scholarly work. quite to the contrary. but if you do, please take the time to know what's already there.

if anything, it's at least respectful to those who have put in countless hours to research this stuff. don't take my word for it. go find out for yourself.

[djohnson]

Originally posted by zen jihad:
That's fine, but it goes both ways, so you can't be surprised when people come to the conclusion that the Bible isn't remotely an accurate recording of what happened.

Again, it is called faith.

[zen jihad]

Originally posted by phoenixboy:
djohnson,

do you have any idea how much research has been put into this subject matter over t

But the believer will just disregard every word of what has been written, because it simply goes against their faith. Pity.

[zen jihad]

Originally posted by djohnson:
Again, it is called faith.

I know, you keep saying that, doesn't make it any more accurate in my mind.

[djohnson]

Originally posted by phoenixboy:
djohnson,

do you have any idea how much research has been put into this subject matter over the last couple of centuries alone?

i don't know where you live, but i am pretty sure they have a library in your area.

there is absolutely nothing wrong with challenging scholarly work. quite to the contrary. but if you do, please take the time to know what's already there.

if anything, it's at least respectful to those who have put in countless hours to research this stuff. don't take my word for it. go find out for yourself.

Yes I know how much work has been put into the research. I have also read my fair share of historical documents and such on this and I will continue to do so as long as I can see. I challenge it because I do not agree with what they have decided. Some of the books I have read are really far out there. Instead of having written records of the actual event, most are parts of a story written hundreds or thousands of years later. I try to understand how they try to disprove the Bible yes automatically accept almost any "writtings" they fine... In the end we will know the truth, but until then you must have faith or have lived for thousands of years

[djohnson]

Originally posted by zen jihad:
I know, you keep saying that, doesn't make it any more accurate in my mind.

What would you rather me call it? I wish we had written records of everything that has happened. Maybe there is this mythological hall of records somewhere... Pity the Library of Alexandria was burned so long ago. I am sure it contained some really important and fascinating documents.

[phoenixboy]

Originally posted by djohnson:
Yes I know how much work has been put into the research. I have also read my fair share of historical documents and such on this and I will continue to do so as long as I can see. I challenge it because I do not agree with what they have decided.

curious. what is the basis for your disagreement?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by zen jihad:
Conversely, no-on can really say what Abraham, or Avram, really believed in when he lived. We only have texts written much later that say it was monotheism, yet, many would dispute that, and even go as far as saying he was a myth too. Who knows.

I find that some people would rather work 2x as hard to NOT believe in something, than they would to believe in something.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by phoenixboy:
at this point i am not willing to discuss anything futher with you. good luck.

Why? Because he made a lucid point?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by zen jihad:
Isn't it hilarious seeing people use Bible stories to explain events that happened long before the Bible was even written down?

When was the stories of the Bible first passed along? We don't know.

[zen jihad]

Originally posted by djohnson:
What would you rather me call it? I wish we had written records of everything that has happened. Maybe there is this mythological hall of records somewhere... Pity the Library of Alexandria was burned so long ago. I am sure it contained some really important and fascinating documents.

It's ok, I'm not having a go at your faith. Interesting you mentioned the library of Alexandria. According to most, The Christians were one group that finally torched the place and destroyed it for good. shame

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by zen jihad:
But the believer will just disregard every word of what has been written, because it simply goes against their faith. Pity.

Words that aren't factual, but also words based on faith.

To believe that Jesus didn't exist, and he wasn't the son of God requires faith as well.

[zen jihad]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I find that some people would rather work 2x as hard to NOT believe in something, than they would to believe in something.

That's just your finding.

[zen jihad]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
When was the stories of the Bible first passed along? We don't know.

Which is what I was saying. We don't know when any of this really happened, and thus, if it did, and if so, what it was.

[zen jihad]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Words that aren't factual, but also words based on faith.

To believe that Jesus didn't exist, and he wasn't the son of God requires faith as well.

That's just one wild theory you're focusing on. There's a world of others that will be disregarded, unless the writer is conforming to your own views.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by zen jihad:
That's just your finding.

No seriously, just look in this thread.

Originally posted by zen jihad:
That's just one wild theory you're focusing on. There's a world of others that will be disregarded, unless the writer is conforming to your own views.

Any wild theory. I know the truth. I have been proven that there is power in the name of Jesus.

Something I cannot deny. If I did, I would be lying to myself. So I am keeping true to myself.

So if another person tells me Jesus was a myth, or was just a "regular guy" I find it a bit hard to swallow.

I've been shown otherwise.

If you go searching for the truth in a honest way, you will find it. If you go searching for something to debunk the truth, you will find it as well.

Free will.

[zen jihad]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
No seriously, just look in this thread.

I see people on both sides trying as hard as they can to prove their position. Arguments are thrown up, and thus countered, requires effort from both sides. You can't accuse people of things like what you just said.

Any wild theory. I know the truth. I have been proven that there is power in the name of Jesus.

Something I cannot deny. If I did, I would be lying to myself. So I am keeping true to myself.

So if another person tells me Jesus was a myth, or was just a "regular guy" I find it a bit hard to swallow.

I've been shown otherwise.

Well, you're trying awfully hard to prove that point, you keep bringing it up. My view? I find it hard to swallow what you just said on your faith, but, it comes easily to me since it's just natural to know it is nonsense, by way of being proven to me.

Same thing, different stance.

[djohnson]

Originally posted by zen jihad:
It's ok, I'm not having a go at your faith. Interesting you mentioned the library of Alexandria. According to most, The Christians were one group that finally torched the place and destroyed it for good. shame

Hmm... Sometimes people make bad choices. I wonder who ordered them to do so...

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by zen jihad:
I see people on both sides trying as hard as they can to prove their position. Arguments are thrown up, and thus countered, requires effort from both sides. You can't accuse people of things like what you just said.

I see one side trying a lot harder. I am sure you don't see it though.

Well, you're trying awfully hard to prove that point, you keep bringing it up.

I am not trying to PROVE anything. I cannot prove it.

My view? I find it hard to swallow what you just said on your faith, but, it comes easily to me since it's just natural to know it is nonsense, by way of being proven to me.

Same thing, different stance.

How was it POVEN to you?

I have seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears, what the power of the name Jesus can do. That is something I cannot deny. That really has nothing to do with faith.

[zen jihad]

Originally posted by djohnson:
Hmm... Sometimes people make bad choices. I wonder who ordered them to do so...

Theophilus, the Patriarch of Alexandria, largely blamed for one of the last, and major attacks on the library. There's one more story that the Muslims burned it down too, but the only evidence for this came from the biased, and anti-Muslim Bishop Gregory Bar Hebr�us. His statements have largely been discredited.

[zen jihad]

Originally posted by Zimphire:

I see one side trying a lot harder. I am sure you don't see it though.

That's the problem, there aren't really sides here, rather multiple views. In fact, I see no-one speaking up on my side. So, in saying that, I see everyone, from all "sides" doing their best to argue their point.

How was it POVEN to you?

I have seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears, what the power of the name Jesus can do. That is something I cannot deny. That really has nothing to do with faith.

If I told you that I have met the greatest of minds traversing the Astral planes, would you laugh? What if I mentioned the Akashic records? Or spoken to Jesus himself? There's a world of experiences that I am aware of, and thankfully enjoy.

Now, in terms of seeing things, I've come across some crazy things in my life, people using the name of God, Allah, whatever to conjure up many an amazing sight. Did it sway me into believing that particular religion? Not really, but when younger, I came close.

[benb]

I know not why God�s wondrous grace
To me He hath made known
Nor why, unworthy, Christ in love
Redeemed me for His own

But I know Whom I have believed
And am persuaded that He is able
To keep that which I�ve committed
Unto Him against that day

I know not how this saving faith
To me He did impart
Nor how believing in His Word
Wrought peace within my heart

But I know Whom I have believed
And am persuaded that He is able
To keep that which I�ve committed
Unto Him against that day

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by zen jihad:
If I told you that I have met the greatest of minds traversing the Astral planes, would you laugh? What if I mentioned the Akashic records? Or spoken to Jesus himself? There's a world of experiences that I am aware of, and thankfully enjoy.

Are you claiming to have spoken with Jesus?

Now, in terms of seeing things, I've come across some crazy things in my life, people using the name of God, Allah, whatever to conjure up many an amazing sight. Did it sway me into believing that particular religion? Not really, but when younger, I came close.

Ah, yes, a lot of things can be "conjured"

It's your job to "test the spirit"

And then and only then will you know.

Wisdom is one of the fruits of the spirit.

[zen jihad]

Originally posted by Zimphire:

Are you claiming to have spoken with Jesus?
[/b]

I don't think I quite said that. Was merely wondering what you would think of such a thing.

Ah, yes, a lot of things can be "conjured"

It's your job to "test the spirit"

And then and only then will you know.

Wisdom is one of the fruits of the spirit.

True, which is why I wasn't swayed and looked to my own spirit for answers, otherwise, I might be a Christian, or Muslim today.

[Applefreak01]

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
Our society needs to move away from the mentality of:

Church Attendant = Good Person

and more towards

Good Deeds = Good Person

Agreed. At the end of mass our father says go in peace to love and serve the lord. Doing good deeds would be serving the lord IMO.

[zen jihad]

Just wondering. You mentioned this, "I have seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears, what the power of the name Jesus can do. That is something I cannot deny. That really has nothing to do with faith."

What was "conjured", or shown to you by way of calling on the name of Jesus?

[djohnson]

Originally posted by zen jihad:
Just wondering. You mentioned this, "I have seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears, what the power of the name Jesus can do. That is something I cannot deny. That really has nothing to do with faith."

What was "conjured", or shown to you by way of calling on the name of Jesus?

Are you sure you want to know? PM him and he might share it with you. Pretty cool if you ask me.

[voyageur]

Originally posted by zen jihad:
I know, but I was kinda hinting at him not having to attend any formal kind of church, or constructed belief in the outset.

That's of course a good option too. Sorry if I came across as an evangelist; I'm not.

I think it's about not actually believing in Christianity per se, but rather looking beyond the doctrone to the character of Jesus as mentioned in the NT. I think it's possible to look at him in light of history and as a reference for humility, and compassion, and yet not have to subscribe to the theology. A bit like looking at Gandhi as a figure of hope, and exceptional character in the midst of tradegy.
....
For me, even if Jesus was purely a myth, then the teachings still stand as an example of human greatness, and I applaud the Gospel writers in constructing such a story out of those times. Just as I would with any great novel that contains such characters.

Your beliefs and mine sound very similar.

Here's a question I have. I was under the impression from historical sources that Jesus never said he was the son of God; that when he was asked whether he was, his response is more accurately translated from Hebrew as "You say that I am." I wonder if someone who is familiar with the original languages can speak to this?

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by Zimphire:

It's your job to "test the spirit"

And then and only then will you know.
[/B]

this is very true, if an entity can't bear particular names of "God" or Jesus (Eshu) then it's most likely one you don't want to deal with, send them packing. There are certain goetia (some call them demons) which seem to be friendly enough on the surface, but from my experience it's just not worth it. You will end up with the bad end of the stick if you work with them.

[phoenixboy]

Originally posted by voyageur:
I was under the impression from historical sources that Jesus never said he was the son of God; that when he was asked whether he was, his response is more accurately translated from Hebrew as "You say that I am." I wonder if someone who is familiar with the original languages can speak to this?

wow, i guess you learn something new every day

though i don't know if this is true or not, it would certainly explain a lot of things (and doubts i have had as well). this has actually happened many times throughout history.

a people "choosing" their "saviour".

[Shaddim]

Originally posted by voyageur:
That's of course a good option too. Sorry if I came across as an evangelist; I'm not.


Your beliefs and mine sound very similar.

Here's a question I have. I was under the impression from historical sources that Jesus never said he was the son of God; that when he was asked whether he was, his response is more accurately translated from Hebrew as "You say that I am." I wonder if someone who is familiar with the original languages can speak to this?

He said, "Ana Ana", which in Aramaic means "I am, I Am". Of course, this was a blasphemous thing to say as Ana "I Am" is a name for God. That's what made them angry and want to stone him. Even to this day certain Syriac dialects won't use that actual phrasing, instead they say "Anana" so as not to cause any issues.

FYI, at that time no one spoke Hebrew outside the temple, it was a ceremonial language.

[zen jihad]

Originally posted by MacNStein:
this is very true, if an entity can't bear particular names of "God" or Jesus (Eshu) then it's most likely one you don't want to deal with, send them packing. There are certain goetia (some call them demons) which seem to be friendly enough on the surface, but from my experience it's just not worth it. You will end up with the bad end of the stick if you work with them.

It's a troublesome task discerning the good from evil, but not beyond the impossible.

[djohnson]

Originally posted by zen jihad:
It's a troublesome task discerning the good from evil, but not beyond the impossible.

Correct. Many times the evil will look good until you look close enough. Unfortunately for most people, once they get that close to see the difference, they are sucked in... Keep watch at all times and guard yourself with the Armor of God.

[zen jihad]

Originally posted by voyageur:
That's of course a good option too. Sorry if I came across as an evangelist; I'm not.

No, not at all, what you wrote was insightful, something that is easily overlooked.

Your beliefs and mine sound very similar.

Here's a question I have. I was under the impression from historical sources that Jesus never said he was the son of God; that when he was asked whether he was, his response is more accurately translated from Hebrew as "You say that I am." I wonder if someone who is familiar with the original languages can speak to this?

It's the source of so much confusion as well. Not only do we have to battle our way through the intentions of the Gospel writers; but also how the term could be used in first century Palestine.

There's also the question of whether Jesus even said this, or hinted at it. Just texts which at tiems push an agenda, such as Luke's Gospel, which makes it hard to really know.