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bedoughty · Sep 14, 2004, 12:39 PM

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=86812

iMac G5 Installable/Upgradable parts. Even though the main logic board and crucial components like the video card are special format, it looks like from this list that they're still customer-replacable. Possibly upgradable? Obviously I can't run out and pick up a Radeon 9800 Pro AGP off the shelf.. I'm just wondering if anyone else has noticed this and has any thoughts. Might some 'aftermarket' Mac vendors be able to offer a new board + faster chip and/or vid card later on?

turtle777 · Sep 14, 2004, 01:02 PM

Originally posted by bedoughty:
[url] Obviously I can't run out and pick up a Radeon 9800 Pro AGP off the shelf.. I'm just wondering if anyone else has noticed this and has any thoughts. Might some 'aftermarket' Mac vendors be able to offer a new board + faster chip and/or vid card later on?

*sigh*

-t

discotronic · Sep 14, 2004, 01:41 PM

Check out this thread:

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...hreadid=226710

Turtle777 could have taken time to provide a link but.....

george68 · Sep 14, 2004, 01:58 PM

Short answer: no way in hell.

User replaceable means servicable, as in if your mobo DIES, you can order a new one and put it in. It's pretty stupid really, because everything is replaceable if you think about it. It'd be like purchasing a spoon, and having the instructions list 'spoon' as a replaceable part.

- Rob

Skip Breakfast · Sep 14, 2004, 02:43 PM

It'd be like purchasing a spoon, and having the instructions list 'spoon' as a replaceable part.

What if there is no spoon?

mitchell_pgh · Sep 14, 2004, 03:16 PM

Well, you can upgrade the RAM and HD... but that's about it... too bad.

The real issue is... they need a $1499 G5 tower so the gamers can stop complaining.

thunderous_funker · Sep 14, 2004, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by mitchell_pgh:
Well, you can upgrade the RAM and HD... but that's about it... too bad.

The real issue is... they need a $1499 G5 tower so the gamers can stop complaining.

Not just gamers. Some of us don't like having our monitor married to the motherboard or GPU.

If I want to fork over the bucks for a 20" LCD (the bulk of the cost of an iMac), I don't want it rendered useless when the GPU no longer cuts the mustard or if the mobo gets fried.

And vice versa, I don't want my computer's lifespan and usefulness threatened by dead pixels on my monitor.

I just don't want an AIO. IMO, AIO computers should be a) dirt cheap or b) laptops.

toti · Sep 14, 2004, 03:34 PM

But some actually DO want AIO's

I live in a 45m2 flat, and have very little space here. A laptop I already have ( iBook ) which really doesn't cut it when it comes to gaming or video editing, but is perfect in every other respect to what I use it for ( No, I don't want a PowerBook... had one, it's too heavy, and the 12" PB doesn't have any more graphics capabilities than the iBook ).

The Tower G5 isn't an option since it's floor-based ( I have no floor space

) and just too messy. ( I have one at work tho, wonderful workhorse ).

Some people DO want AIO's, others don't.

Why can't people just accept the fact that Apple produces products for a variety of customers with different needs, and let it at that ?

Ranting about products that you don't want anyways is just silly

thunderous_funker · Sep 14, 2004, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by toti:
But some actually DO want AIO's

I live in a 45m2 flat, and have very little space here. A laptop I already have ( iBook ) which really doesn't cut it when it comes to gaming or video editing, but is perfect in every other respect to what I use it for ( No, I don't want a PowerBook... had one, it's too heavy, and the 12" PB doesn't have any more graphics capabilities than the iBook ).

The Tower G5 isn't an option since it's floor-based ( I have no floor space ) and just too messy. ( I have one at work tho, wonderful workhorse ).

Some people DO want AIO's, others don't.

Why can't people just accept the fact that Apple produces products for a variety of customers with different needs, and let it at that ?

Ranting about products that you don't want anyways is just silly

The irony of talking about choice seems to be lost on you.

I realize that some people want an AIO. The problem is that Apple only offers one non-AIO product which happens to be a very high end Unix workstation with Dual processors.

I don't consider AIO or very expensive dual processor workstation to be much in the way of choice.

Luckily Apple's laptops are still great so any new Mac purchase will be one of those.

Unfortunately, it means my next desktop computer will still be a Windows machine until Apple offers a desktop computer that isn't AIO or at least offers some upgradability.

turtle777 · Sep 14, 2004, 03:55 PM

Originally posted by toti:
Ranting about products that you don't want anyways is just silly

Word !

-t

toti · Sep 14, 2004, 04:00 PM

Then you could get a tower G4 with a display, used, for around the same as a AIO G5 goes for, but second hand...

Plenty of upgradeability there, but also plenty of noise...

And since the OS is still 32-bit, a dual G4 1.25GHz still outperforms a 1.8GHz G5 in terms of CPU...

thunderous_funker · Sep 14, 2004, 04:04 PM

And I'm not ranting. I've tried to be reasonable in my criticism. In fact, in other threads I even admitted that it just might not even be profitable for Apple to offer a minitower type product.

I just think there is a very big gap in the prodcut line and they are missing out on a lot of sales because of it.

The problem pre-dates the new iMac. Its just come to a head because many of us were hoping that Apple would seize the opportunity of redesigning the iMac to address the problem. They didn't.

They'll probably sell a lot of them at first as old iMac users upgrade, but don't expect those sales to be sustained for very long. It will probably closely resemble the LCD iMac sales pattern.

For many PC buyers, Apple remains a company that essentially offers great notebooks and great high end Unix workstations but continues to lose share in the desktop market because they only offer disposable machines and not very disposable prices.

bedoughty · Sep 14, 2004, 04:04 PM

Hey, if I don't want a company to make something I expect them to not make it!

Kidding.

Dude does have somewhat of a point though.. I'm a die-never Apple nut myself and I'm counting my pennies as we speak for a G5 desktop setup. But it would be nice to see a 'low end,' more traditional G5 machine for those who don't need dual gigamaflops of terawhats-its and mega-wammy's of power that still lets its buyer swap in a new video card every other day or so when the next latest, fastest and baddest one is released.

thunderous_funker · Sep 14, 2004, 04:17 PM

Originally posted by toti:
Then you could get a tower G4 with a display, used, for around the same as a AIO G5 goes for, but second hand...

Plenty of upgradeability there, but also plenty of noise...

And since the OS is still 32-bit, a dual G4 1.25GHz still outperforms a 1.8GHz G5 in terms of CPU...

Ah, the irony of Apple's dicontinued products offering better choice and price/performance.

Continuing to offer a single processor G5 PowerMac would certainly quiet a lot of critics.

I need to replace my current wintel desktop PC. I was waiting for the new iMac announcement before deciding. Now that it's an AIO, I will have to decide between buying discontinued Apple product second hand to get what I want or another wintel box.

I realize its anecdotal, but I honestly know a lot of people who feel the same way I do. I even know Enterprise customers who would seriously consider replacing old Wintel boxes with Macs if Apple offered a non-AIO desktop machine. In fact, the CTO at my last job (a close friend) would order 50+ G5 desktop machines if only they weren't AIOs. Since they don't exist, he'll probably be buying wintel again.

toti · Sep 14, 2004, 04:28 PM

Well, unfortunately ( for some people at least ) the manufacturer has the same rights to deciding their product lineup as the custumer has in buying those products, or not.

I sure would like to grab a burger at Subways or get spares for my Vespa at BMW's, but I can't since they don't supply the "right" stuff, and all the complaining in the world isn't going to change that

( and I'm not directing this at you specifically, but more at the forum in general

)

If we aren't pleased with what is on offer, there is the choice of looking elsewhere, and that is not a bad choice at all. If people are truly unsatisfied with the AIO formfactor, the GPU or any other aspect/functionality of the new iMac, it WILL show in sales numbers once real world figures start rolling in. If so unlikely the iMac would be a flop, I think Apple would notice soon enough, and maybe they'd do something about it ( of course, that would be their choice to do - or not )...

Oh darn... now I'm ranting

*slap self*

The bottom line is, it all comes down to choice - their and our

mitchell_pgh · Sep 14, 2004, 04:39 PM

I'm the first to say I DON'T LIKE AIO units.

That being said, I don't have $1799 to spend on just the computer...

So where does that put me... looking at refurbished units or waiting...

HELLO APPLE: Headless iMac...

thunderous_funker · Sep 14, 2004, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by toti:
The bottom line is, it all comes down to choice - their and our

Yep. And 97% of the market chooses to not buy Apple products. I guess my criticism is based on the assumption that Apple is trying to change that. Maybe I'm wrong and they feel that they have comfortable enough profit margins on the 3% niche market to not change anything.

Fair enough.

I just find it telling when someone like me who loves Apple, loves OS X and thinks the G5 is the shiznibit still doesn't own a Mac because they don't make a desktop machine that offers what I want.

I guess we are still in the Year of the Notebook because those are the only Macs that seem to make any sense to me in terms of broad market appeal.

I guess what I find even more frustrating is that when anyone tries to discuss the matter, they just get told they should be buying something else.

So here are some serious questions to try and focus the discussion to the essential, important facts:

1) Do you think people would buy a headless, single G5 Mac with a standard AGP slot?

2) If not, why not?

3) If yes, how many of them do you think they'd sell? Would it be worth it?

4) If you don't think it would be worth it, why not?

mitchell_pgh · Sep 14, 2004, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by toti:
Then you could get a tower G4 with a display, used, for around the same as a AIO G5 goes for, but second hand...

Plenty of upgradeability there, but also plenty of noise...

And since the OS is still 32-bit, a dual G4 1.25GHz still outperforms a 1.8GHz G5 in terms of CPU...

I'm sorry, but buying old hardware doesn't seem like much of a solution.

I'm not asking Apple to do all that much:
1) Remove LCD
2) Add SPACE for 2nd HD (OPTIONAL)
3) Add dual monitor support (OPTIONAL)

Apple goes on and on about how nice the G5 iMac looks... but MANY of us would be just as happy with a 17" LCD (for $300) and a headless iMac for $999.

Just take the LCD screen out of the picture... no need to reengineer the hardware other then building a new enclosure.

Don Pickett · Sep 14, 2004, 04:47 PM

I intend to drop an Opteron into mine. . .

toti · Sep 14, 2004, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
So here are some serious questions to try and focus the discussion to the essential, important facts:

1) Do you think people would buy a headless, single G5 Mac with a standard AGP slot?

Yes I do. And I'm quite sure they would sell very well. As we have seen by the reaction of the noisy people in the forum, there is a demand. Apple on the other hand isn't really competing with PC manufacturers, and it has been stated more than once by market analysts that they shouldn't go down that road...

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
2) If not, why not?

3) If yes, how many of them do you think they'd sell? Would it be worth it?

Most certainly it would be worth it, by itself. BUT when considering the impact such a machine would have on both the iMac AND the PowerMac, it really would be questionable for Apple to market such a machine, since they already have a slim profit margin. Development of new machines costs. Even just developing the looks ( Jonathan Ives ) is costly. He got for that project what I will earn for the rest of my life, and then some. And I don't have bad wages at what I do... Development costs and profit margins will be what continues to limit the "flavours" of computers Apple offers, unless Apple gains some serious market share ( where lower profit margins per unit actually have lower dent impact on the budget )

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
4) If you don't think it would be worth it, why not? [/B]

Hmm... see #3

toti · Sep 14, 2004, 04:58 PM

Hrm... "that project" of course being the G5 tower

thunderous_funker · Sep 14, 2004, 05:06 PM

Ok. Now we're getting somewhere.

If you're correct that Apple can't afford to build, design and sell both an iPodMac and a headless iMac then I guess we should be asking ourselves which one would sell more?

I think the AIO market is very small and very niche. I think the headless iMac could be a huge break out product that would actually attract switchers.

The iPodMac's market is appeal so narrow: want a G5 but don't already have a monitor they like and will be happy never being able to upgrade or replace key components (like GPU or monitor).

In fact, I suspect the iPodMac will sell mostly to people replacing an original iMac. Anyone with an LCD iMac or an Apple display is gonna be a tough sell unless they simply have wads of disposable income.

Of course, the above argument assumes that Apple really can't build, market and sell BOTH iPodMacs and iHeadlessMacs. I'm not sure that is really the case, but I'll concede its possible.

If they really can't do both, I think the iHeadless would sell far better.

If they can afford to do both, why wouldn't they?

toti · Sep 14, 2004, 05:13 PM

Well, sold my trusty dual G4 1.25GHz with 17" Apple display, and am buying the ( overall SLOWER ) G5 "iPodMac"

since it still has the oomph I need, but fits my needs and lifestyle better than the G4...

thunderous_funker · Sep 14, 2004, 05:27 PM

Originally posted by toti:
Well, sold my trusty dual G4 1.25GHz with 17" Apple display, and am buying the ( overall SLOWER ) G5 "iPodMac" since it still has the oomph I need, but fits my needs and lifestyle better than the G4...

Which would seem to support my claim that iPodMac appeals primarily to a very niche market.

Or are you suggesting that thousands of people will be selling Dual CPU workstations and their LCD displays in order to "downgrade" to an AIO for style reasons?

No offense, but I don't think that is realistic. I don't think you're representative of nearly enough people to make a viable business plan.

My vote would be for both an AIO and a non-AIO G5 desktop.

If you're right and Apple can only do one or the other, do you really think there are more AIO buyers than non-AIO buyers?

toti · Sep 14, 2004, 05:34 PM

No offense, but I don't think that is realistic. I don't think you're representative of nearly enough people to make a viable business plan.

None taken - I KNOW I'm eccentric

But many people I know are looking for justifications on switching to the iMac.

My neighbour company is actually throwing out (5) HP Pentium4 workstations with 19" monitors in exchange for iMacs, (3) SUN workstations in exchange for G5 PM's and PB's and theyr'e getting an XServe as well. One BIG change for a small company that has NEVER had macs before

storer · Sep 14, 2004, 05:35 PM

I guessed before this iMac came out that there would definetly be some whining about SOME part of the iMac. Apple can never live up to everyone's expectations.

thunderous_funker · Sep 14, 2004, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by toti:
None taken - I KNOW I'm eccentric

But many people I know are looking for justifications on switching to the iMac.

My neighbour company is actually throwing out (5) HP Pentium4 workstations with 19" monitors in exchange for iMacs, (3) SUN workstations in exchange for G5 PM's and PB's and theyr'e getting an XServe as well. One BIG change for a small company that has NEVER had macs before

Replacing Sun workstations with PMs makes a lot of sense. Xserves make a lot of sense.

P4 workstations and expensive monitors being "thrown out" for iMacs makes zero sense to me. Then again, I know lots of IT people with more money than brains.

thunderous_funker · Sep 14, 2004, 05:51 PM

Originally posted by storer:
Apple can never live up to everyone's expectations.

Well, they're at 3% now. I guess they have some room to manuever before they have to start worrying about pleasing 100%.

toti · Sep 14, 2004, 05:56 PM

P4 workstations and expensive monitors being "thrown out" for iMacs makes zero sense to me. Then again, I know lots of IT people with more money than brains.

Actually, there are a lot of brains involved

And big ones too

Replacing 5 workstations running Linux ( or Windows for that matter ) which need constant attention, a high level of cluefulness ( these are paperpushing workstations ) with iMacs isn't dumb at all. The TCO is lowered almost to zero ( excluding the initial investment )

In my office at work I threw out a brand new dual processor Xeon 3GHz DELL workstation and demanded a G5 Mac. My workflow changed from 20% "fixing" my machine for the diverse tasks at hand and 80% work to 1% "fixing" ( mostly SoftwareUpdate once in a while ) and 99% working. The G5 is practcally paying for itself in increased work being done

That's what theyr'e after. The tech guy only has to patch the iMacs when he patches his computer, and can spend the rest of the time doing what he's really supposed to do ( i.e. NOT user-support

)

toti · Sep 14, 2004, 06:00 PM

Well, they're at 3% now. I guess they have some room to manuever before they have to start worrying about pleasing 100%

Well... "up here" ( small island in the northern atlantic ) Apple had a 46% increase in sales in last fiscal year

( I think that is a world record for Apple, and with a very small market of only 230.000 people in all, it may not be much, but our % surely is higer than 3

)

thunderous_funker · Sep 14, 2004, 06:09 PM

Originally posted by toti:
That's what theyr'e after. The tech guy only has to patch the iMacs when he patches his computer, and can spend the rest of the time doing what he's really supposed to do ( i.e. NOT user-support )

The old 19" monitors needed a lot of upkeep?

I'm quite positive that given the choice, those IT people would have loved to simply plug those big expensive monitors into new shiney headless G5 iMacs.

Swapping Windows/Linux for OS X might be a smart move, but I beg to differ that they would rather have AIOs than minitowers. I find that almost impossible to believe.

thunderous_funker · Sep 14, 2004, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by toti:
Well... "up here" ( small island in the northern atlantic ) Apple had a 46% increase in sales in last fiscal year ( I think that is a world record for Apple, and with a very small market of only 230.000 people in all, it may not be much, but our % surely is higer than 3 )

Just like some word problems on standardized tests, your post doesn't contain enough information to make an educated evaluation.

If 1 person bought a Mac last year, and 2 bought Macs this year, that equals a 100% increase in sales. That doesn't mean Apple is offering products that appeal to the broadest range of would-be consumers.

toti · Sep 14, 2004, 06:59 PM

I'm quite positive that given the choice, those IT people would have loved to simply plug those big expensive monitors into new shiney headless G5 iMacs.

Nope, 19" CRT's take a lot of desk real estate. That's one reason for getting AIO's...

When a customer walks in, everything is much "cleaner" with a good AIO than with a (mini)tower machine and a huge monitor...

thunderous_funker · Sep 14, 2004, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by toti:
Nope, 19" CRT's take a lot of desk real estate. That's one reason for getting AIO's...

When a customer walks in, everything is much "cleaner" with a good AIO than with a (mini)tower machine and a huge monitor...

I mistook you to mean they had LCD monitors before.

Even so, any IT manager who replaces working resources to make the office look "cleaner" has more budget than sense.

I submit that my argument that the number of people who can afford such decisions is significantly smaller than the number of people who don't want an AIO.

toti · Sep 14, 2004, 07:25 PM

Hmm...

You wilfully take each of my statements seperately to suite your needs...

First and foremost he is lowering the TCO, which is GOOD financial management, as status quo would mean hiring more people ( eventually ).

Second, image is marketability. We are talking about a high-profile company, and ugly offices turn people away, or irritate them at best. Comfortable good looking offices give customers a satisfying experience on their own, and return value as such. Your customer comes again, on his own accord. Because he wants to.

This is not a decision "made on a whim" by one man, it has been analyzed by financial and marketing expers of their mother-company ( which is one of our bigger telcos ) and given a green light from there.. It's simply seen as time-saving, money-saving AND image-enhancing all at the same time, and that can't be bad ?

I do have full respect for the people making those decisions, even if they work in a field where I wouldn't put my foot...

thunderous_funker · Sep 14, 2004, 07:27 PM

Ok. Your anecdotal example cancels mine.

What other evidence is there that:

1) Apple can't afford to bring 2 different desktop models to market

2) If Apple must choose one desktop strategy, why AIOs have broader market appeal than headless minitowers

toti · Sep 14, 2004, 08:06 PM

I really think this matter can't be adequately solved by guesswork

If Apple's marketing were just a little bit more responsive, they just might tell us...

But then I have NEVER gotten a response from Apple marketing...

Strangely enough, I never got an answer from Apple legal either ( regarding a question on Apple licensing and MacOS X localizations ) - THAT was a surprise to me!

Seems they just don't want to comment on anything... at all...

Conspiracy theorey, anyone ?

turtle777 · Sep 15, 2004, 09:38 AM

Originally posted by discotronic:
Check out this thread:

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...hreadid=226710

Turtle777 could have taken time to provide a link but.....

Why ?

It's hard to NOT notice any of the trillions of threads already out there...

-t

bedoughty · Sep 15, 2004, 10:32 AM

Hey let's just drop it. I was admittedly lazy and didn't search any of the threads out there and t certainly called me on it.

Let's all get on with our lives instead of fighting for two more pages over who did the what's it how and when.

Lancer409 · Sep 17, 2004, 02:54 AM

Originally posted by turtle777:
*sigh*

-t

^-Ditto

bedoughty · Sep 17, 2004, 10:46 AM

jesus lancer I already apologized. You guys wanna chill? I waz lazy and I didn't search the forums. It's not like I accidentally dropped a bomb over *there* when it should've been over *here.* Get a grip.