[Abu Bakr]

CHARGES AGAINST THE STATE OF ISRAEL

Marwan Hassib Barghouti, on behalf of the Palestinian People,
Plaintiff
- Versus -
The State of Israel,
Defendant

October 3, 2002

Statement of Indictment

The State of Israel is directly and indirectly criminally responsible for committing specific acts of genocide, ethnic cleansing, including uprooting Palestinians by military attacks, arbitrary arrests and illegal imprisonment, administrative detention, attacks on women, children and the elderly, systematic and wanton destruction of property and homes, systematic expropriation and dispossession, violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, including assassinations, confiscation of lands and property, creation of separate reserves and Bantustans, disrupting public life and terrorizing a whole population, including through acts of collective punishment and reprisals, racial discrimination, stealing, looting and plundering, infliction of serious bodily or mental harm, including torture, ill-treatment, cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment and punishment, mutilation, causing death and serious injury, deliberate imposition of living conditions calculated to cause physical destruction in whole or in part, approving and implementing legislative measures calculated to prevent Palestinians from participation in the political, social, economic and cultural life and the deliberate creation of conditions preventing the full development of Palestinians, exploitation of labor, persecution of organizations and members, depriving persons of fundamental rights and freedoms because they oppose military occupation, colonialism, or apartheid, and other criminal acts.

Violated Laws, Treaties, and Conventions

The State of Israel is criminally responsible for crimes, which are stated to be the most serious crimes of concern to the international community as a whole. These include:

The crime of genocide, crimes against humanity, war crimes and the crime of aggression as defined and specified in the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, as corrected by the proc�s-verbaux of 10 November 1998 and 12 July 1999.

-- Violations of 85 United Nations Security Council Resolutions
-- Violations of the following:
-- Charter of the United Nations;
-- Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide;
-- Convention on the Non-Applicability of Statutory Limitations to War Crimes and Crimes against Humanity;
-- Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War;
-- Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War;
-- Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and Relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts;
-- Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and Relating to the Protection of Victims of Non-International Armed Conflicts;
-- International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights;
-- International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights;
-- Declaration on the Right and Responsibility of Individuals, Groups and Organs of Society to Promote and Protect Universally Recognized Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms;
-- Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples;
-- International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination;
-- International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid;
-- Convention against Discrimination in Education;
-- Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women;
-- Convention on the Political Rights of Women;
-- Convention on the Rights of the Child;
-- Standard Minimum Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners;
-- Basic Principles for the Treatment of Prisoners;
-- Body of Principles for the Protection of All Persons under Any Form of Detention or Imprisonment;
-- United Nations Rules for the Protection of Juveniles Deprived of Liberty;
-- Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment;
-- Principles on the Effective Investigation and Documentation of Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment;
-- Principles of Medical Ethics Relevant to the Role of Health Personnel, particularly Physicians, in the Protection of Prisoners and Detainees against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment;
-- Code of Conduct for Law Enforcement Officials;
-- Basic Principles on the Use of Force and Firearms by Law Enforcement Officials;
-- Basic Principles on the Role of Lawyers;
-- United Nations Standard Minimum Rules for the Administration of Juvenile Justice;
-- Basic Principles on the Independence of the Judiciary;
-- Principles on the Effective Prevention and Investigation of Extra-legal, Arbitrary and Summary Executions.

Specific charges against the State of Israel

I. War crimes and crimes against humanity

1. The State of Israel and its predecessor agents have committed various acts of genocide, killing thousands of Palestinian civilians, causing serious bodily and mental harm to thousands of Palestinians, and deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to bring physical destruction, including but not limited to the following cases:
Baldat al-Shaikh (January 30-31, 1947), Yehida (December 13, 1947), Khisas (December 18, 1947), Qazaza (December 19, 1947), Katamon (July 5, 1948), Deir Yassin (April 9/10, 1948), Naser al-Din (April 13, 14, 1948), Tantura (May 15, 1948), Beit Daras (May 21, 1948), Lydda (July 11, 1948), Dawayma (October 29, 1948), Houla (October, 26, 1948), Sharafat (February 7, 1951), Kibya (October 14, 1953), Kafr Kassim (October 29, 1956), Gaza City (April 5, 1956), Khan Younis (November 3, 1956), Rafah (November 12, 1956), Al-Sammou' (November 13, 1966), Kawnin (October 15, 1975), Bint Jbeil (October 21, 1976), Abbasieh (March 17, 1978), Adloun (March 17, 1978), Saida (April 4, 1981), Fakhani (July 17, 1981), Beirut (July 17, 1981), Sabra and Shatila (September 16-18, 1982), Jibsheet (March 27, 1984), Sohmor (September 19, 1984), Seer al-Gharbiah (March 23, 1985), Maaraka (March 5, 1985), Zrariah (March 11, 1985), Homeen al-Tahta (March 21, 1985), Jibaa (March 30, 1985), Yohmor (April 13, 1985), Tiri (August 17, 1986), Al-Naher al-Bared (December 11, 1986), Ain al-Hilwe (September 5, 1987), Nablus (December 16, 1988), Nahhalin (April 13, 1989), Oyon Qara (May 20, 1990), Siddiqine (July 25, 1990), Jerusalem (October 8, 1990), Hebron (February 25, 1994), Jalabia (March 28, 1994), Aramta (April 15, 1994), Erez (July 17, 1994), Deir al-Zahrani (August 5, 1994), Nabatiyeh (March 21, 1994), Sohmor (April 2, 1996), Mansuriah (April 13, 1996), Nabatiya (April 18, 1996), Qana (April 18, 1996), West Bank/Gaza (September 25-28, 1996), Tarqumia (March 10, 1998), Janta (December 22, 1998), Beirut (June 24, 1999), Western Baq'a (December 29, 1999), Jerusalem (September 29, 2000), Idna (July 19, 2001), Nablus (July 31, 2001), Beit Rima (October 24, 2001), Jenin (April 3-21, 2002), Nablus (April 3-21, 2002).

2. Between 1948 and 1949, the State of Israel killed at least 13,000 Palestinians. During the June 1967 war, the State of Israel killed, although official figures have never been released, at least 15,000 Palestinians, Egyptians, Jordanians and Syrians.

3. In Lebanon, the State of Israel killed over 29,500 Palestinians and Lebanese civilians, 40% were children. During various invasions, the State of Israel forcibly evicted more than 100,000 Palestinian and Lebanese civilians.

4. Between December 1987 and September 1993, the State of Israel killed over 1,300 Palestinian civilians, including over a quarter under the age of 16, wounded more than 100,000, and demolished 2,089 homes. Between 1993 until the end of 1999, the State of Israel has killed 492 Palestinian civilians. Between 1993 and the end of 1999, the State of Israel has demolished approximately 1,000 Palestinian homes, leaving more than 5,000 Palestinians homeless.

5. Since the end of September 2000, the State of Israel and its army and citizens have killed 1,639 Palestinians, including 336 children.

6. Since the end of September 2000, the State of Israel has killed at least 103 Palestinians, of which half were simply bystanders, including women and children, in state-sponsored assassinations.

7. Since the end of September 2000, the State of Israel has killed more than 550 Palestinians through shelling and bombardments of civilian and public infrastructure, homes, schools and other places. The State of Israel has caused death and injury to more Palestinians at checkpoints and due to prevention of medical access or restrictions of movement.

8. Since the end of September 2000, the State of Israel has severely injured, maimed and wounded at least 20,000 Palestinians, leaving more than 2,000 Palestinians permanently disabled. In that same period, the State of Israel demolished more than 985 Palestinian homes.

9. Since the end of September 2000, the State of Israel has launched military attacks on Palestinian civilians. These attacks include shootings, shelling and bombings in their homes, schools, universities, hospitals, field clinics, and workplaces. The State of Israel targeted clearly marked ambulances and paramedics, journalists, and human rights defenders. The State of Israel has used heavy weaponry and ammunition against Palestinians, including bombs, mortar shells, tank shells, air-to-ground and ground-to-ground missiles fired from attack helicopters and F-16 warplanes, naval warships, tanks and armored personnel carriers. The State of Israel is also responsible for the death of Palestinians, who have been shot and killed by Israeli snipers, shooting high-velocity live ammunitions at civilians in civilian areas. In this period, the State of Israel has killed and injured a disproportionate number of women and children, clearly-marked medical personnel, human rights defenders and journalists.

10. Since 1967, the State of Israel has caused casualties by exploding objects and flares, including objects thrown from military jeeps and helicopters, mines and explosives, and flammable objects. These objects have either exploded, causing shrapnel wounds, or caught fire, causing severe burns. For example, on February 13, 1989, Iktimal Dim (6) was killed, and her brother, 'Isam Dim (10), injured by shrapnel from an exploding device thrown from an Israeli helicopter hovering above the village of Tayasir. Since 1967, a great number of Palestinians have been wounded or killed after stepping on mines or other explosives planted by the Israeli army.

11. Since 1948, the State of Israel ordered and encouraged its military's brutal use of physical force against unarmed, mostly young Palestinians. This includes the systematic beating of Palestinian civilians by Israeli soldiers and police, which gained particular notoriety in 1988, after the late Yitzhak Rabin, then Defense Minister, announced a policy of 'force, might, and beatings' on January 18, 1988. Palestinians have been beaten randomly, without any apparent connection to protests, they were often taken from their homes or off the streets and brutally assaulted. Beatings were also typically carried out by groups of Israeli soldiers acting in concert rather than individually. Beating incidents have taken place in situations where the victim offered no resistance. For example, on 19 and 21 January 1988, in the village of Huwarra, Israeli soldiers rounded up twenty residents, drove them to a remote area, bound and gagged them, and then deliberately broke their arms and legs. The lack of proper investigations into cases where Palestinians have been severely injured or killed as a result of beatings further confirms the fact that beatings are a policy of the State of Israel.

12. Between 1949 and 1956, the State of Israel killed at least 5,000 Palestinian refugees, mostly farmers trying to return home, either to live, see relatives or to harvest their crops.

13. The State of Israel has imposed severe restrictions on Palestinian movement, including through closures, besiegement, curfews and the use of trenches, fences, iron gates and walls. The State of Israel controlled, restricted, closed and altogether denied Palestinian access to key facilities, goods and services, including humanitarian aid and assistance, including hospitals and field clinics, basic supplies such as medicines, food and water, education, denial of Palestinian access to schools and universities, denial of Palestinian access to workplaces, businesses, agricultural areas, industries, family and community life.

14. The State of Israel has assaulted Palestinian women in various ways, including illegal and indiscriminate use of lethal force by Israeli military authorities, resulting in deaths or injuries, the deliberate abuse of tear gas by Israeli military, resulting in suffocation, health problems, and miscarriages among Palestinian women, soldiers' brutality, sexual harassment and intimidation by Israeli soldiers, the use of obscene language, exposure, urinating on women, molestation and attempted rape, arrest, interrogation and torture inside Israeli prisons, hostage taking, expulsion, obstruction and harassment of women's committees and charitable organizations, raids on women's centers, kindergartens and cooperatives.

15. The State of Israel has deliberately induced humanitarian crisis, with impoverishment of Palestinian civilians and starvation policies. The State of Israel has restricted movement, denied and hindered access to humanitarian aid and assistance, food and water, medical supplies and aid, hospitals, work and education.

II. Denial of Health Care

16. The State of Israel has allowed its military to beat and detain wounded Palestinians, obstruct attempts by medical personnel and others to aid critically injured Palestinians, delay ambulances transporting injured Palestinians, physically mistreat doctors and other health care professionals, mistreat wounded Palestinians, raid medical facilities, shoot at ambulances, and adopt measures which have reduced the quality and availability of health services. These abuses illustrate a disregard for the most fundamental humanitarian norms on the part of the State of Israel.

[Abu Bakr]

III. Expulsions

17. The State of Israel has systematically dispossessed, uprooted and expelled Palestinian communities, in whole or in part, forcing remaining Palestinian communities to live in separate, inferior, less fertile, fragmented and non-contiguous enclaves within its own boundaries and the occupied Palestinian territories. To reduce the number of Palestinians within the historic boundaries of Palestine from 70% to 50%, the State of Israel has used various methods, including forcible expulsions, acts of genocide and ethnic cleansing.

18. The State of Israel has forcibly expelled more than 780,000 Palestinians, which amounted to 60% of the total Palestinian population, and depopulated and completely destroyed 531 Palestinian villages and localities. In 1948, the State of Israel internally displaced approximately 37,500 Palestinians. Even after the armistice agreements of 1949, the State of Israel continued to expel thousands of Palestinians, notably from the 'Little Triangle', and in the south from Majdal, to Faluja and Bir Saba, the Hebron region, and from the east and north of the Sea of Galilee.

19. The State of Israel also carried out round-ups in Palestinian villages, and expelled those Palestinians it decided were 'illegals'. In the Negev desert, for example, between 1949 and 1953, the State of Israel expelled close to 17,000 Bedouin. In 1953 alone, the State of Israel forcibly expelled 7,000 Bedouin. Such expulsions were often conducted with brutality. That same year, on October 14, 1953, an Israeli commando unit, under command of the current Prime Minister of the State of Israel, killed 69 Palestinian civilians, mostly women and children, and blew up 45 Palestinian homes in the West Bank village of Qibiya. On October 29, 1956, the State of Israel killed forty-nine Palestinian villagers, including fifteen women and eleven children in Kafr Kassim, a Palestinian village in the little Triangle. The villagers were lined up and shot for breaking a curfew (for which they had not been informed). One day later, on October 30, 1956, the State of Israel forcibly expelled approximately 5,000 Palestinians from Krad al Baqqara and Krad al Ghannama into Syria.

20. In 1967, the State of Israel forcibly expelled 388,500 Palestinian civilians, including 188,500 for the second time.

21. Between 1967 and 2002, the State of Israel deported 1,531 Palestinians, including mayors, writers, students and university lecturers, as a punitive measure. In August 1971 alone, the State of Israel deported 600 Palestinian refugees living in the Gaza Strip. Between 1987 and 1999, in East Jerusalem alone, the State of Israel, revoked residency rights of 3,327 Palestinians.

22. To date, the State of Israel has prevented the return of approximately 6 million Palestinian refugees, who have either been expelled or displaced. On October 26, 1948, the first Israeli Prime Minister David Ben Gurion established the 'Transfer Committee' and adopted its recommendations preventing the return of Palestinian refugees. To date, approximately 250,000 internally displaced Palestinians are prevented from return to their homes and villages. Since 1948, the State of Israel has uprooted approximately three-quarter of the Palestinian people from their land, making this the largest and one of the longest standing unresolved refugee cases in the world today. The majority of Palestinian refugees, living inside the occupied Palestinian territories, and internally displaced Palestinians living within the boundaries of the State of Israel, live within 100 miles of their places of origin but are denied their right to return to their homes and lands.

IV. Home demolitions and destruction of property

23. Since 1967, the State of Israel has demolished at least 9,000 Palestinian homes, leaving 50,000 Palestinians homeless. In August 1971 alone, the State of Israel and the Israeli army, led by Israel's current Prime Minister, demolished 2,000 Palestinian homes in the Gaza Strip, uprooting 12,000 Palestinian refugees for the second time in their lives.

24. In 1948 and after, the State of Israel plundered and looted Palestinian property spread over hundreds of Palestinian towns and villages, including homes, household effects, cash, heavy equipment, trucks and whole flocks of cattle. The total quantity of Palestinian property confiscated by the State of Israel amounted to over 4 million acres of land, the looting and confiscation of tens of thousands of homes, apartments, shops, factories and other facilities.

V. Land Confiscation and Colonization

25. The State of Israel confiscated 800,000 acres of cultivated Palestinian farmland, including crops, olives, tobacco, and fruit. Additionally, the State of Israel confiscated livestock-goats, sheep, and hens.

26. The State of Israel confiscated assets of the Muslim waqf, endowments of land and property, accounting for one-tenth of all land in Palestine before 1948, and 70 per cent of all ships in some Palestinian towns, besides urban estate, houses and businesses. It is estimated that the State of Israel has confiscated, destructed and plundered US$1.8 billion of Palestinian refugee moveable property and lands. Today this is valued at US$ 209 billion.

27. Since 1948, the State of Israel has confiscated 96% of the land owned by Palestinians for use by Israeli Jews only. Since 1967, the State of Israel has confiscated 58% of the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip, for use by Israeli Jews only.

28. Since 1967, the State of Israel has been responsible for establishing, financing and protecting illegal Jewish colonies (settlements) in the West Bank and Gaza. The State of Israel has confiscated 40,000 acres of land to build a vast road system in the occupied Palestinian territories, which are only allowed to be used by its army and settlers. Most of this land was under cultivation by Palestinian farmers.

29. Since 1967, the State of Israel has transferred 400,000 settlers into the occupied Palestinian territories, including East Jerusalem.

30. Since 1967 to September 2001, the State of Israel has built 123 illegal settlements on confiscated and expropriated Palestinian land in the West Bank, excluding East Jerusalem, hosting 198,000 settlers. Between 1993 and September 2001, the population of settlers increased from 100,000 to 198,000, and thus approximately doubled. In occupied East Jerusalem, between 1997 and September 2001, the State of Israel increased the number of settlers to 167,000. Between 1993 and August 2001, the State of Israel confiscated over 70,000 acres of Palestinian land. In 1999 alone, the State of Israel confiscated approximately 10,000 acres of Palestinian land. Since February 2001 alone, the State of Israel has built at least 34 new settlements, excluding expansion of existing illegal settlements.

31. Since 1967, the State of Israel have neither prevented assaults by Israeli settlers on Palestinian individuals and communities, nor effectively intervened to stop such assaults. For example, on June 2, 1980, as a result of car bombs placed by Israeli settlers, backed by the Israeli army, the mayors of Nablus and Ramallah, Bassam Shaka'a and Karim Khalaf, were severely maimed. On February 24, 1994, an Israeli settler, Baruch Goldstein, entered the Ibrahimi mosque in Hebron and opened fire on worshippers, marking the end of Ramadan. Twenty-nine Palestinians were killed. The State of Israel failed to intervene, except to kill another six Palestinians. The State of Israel has ordered its soldiers to cooperate with settlers engaging in wanton violence against Palestinian residents. Furthermore, the State of Israel has failed to hold Israeli settlers responsible for their actions. Israeli settlers have killed and wounded Palestinians, and destroyed, vandalized, or stolen large amounts of Palestinian property.

32. To this date, the State of Israel has continued this policy of land expropriation, land destruction, agricultural property destruction and home demolitions both inside Israel and the occupied Palestinian Territories. Inside Israel, the State of Israel has maintained a policy of continually establishing new settlements for Jews only that also serve to isolate and cut off Palestinian communities. In addition, the State of Israel has imposed massive restrictions on Palestinian construction.

33. Inside Israel, the State of Israel has confined Palestinians into restricted, deliberately under-developed enclaves with reduced access to necessary resources, services and facilities. The State of Israel has no laws to prevent discrimination in issues of land ownership, leasing, and residency issues. The State of Israel uses quasi-governmental agencies and zoning or planning laws to confine Palestinians and particular areas and prevent natural growth. In occupied East Jerusalem, the State of Israel prevents Palestinians access to 66% because of Israeli zoning, planning and building restrictions. In other parts of the occupied Palestinian territories, the State of Israel has confined Palestinians to Bantustan-style enclaves, again with reduced access to necessary resources, including water supplies, services and facilities.

VI. Water Confiscation

34. Since 1967, the State of Israel has confiscated more than 80% of Palestinian groundwater. Shortly after the June 1967 war, the State of Israel destroyed 140 Palestinian water pumps in the Jordan Valley, used to irrigate Palestinian farms in the area. Since 1967, all water management in the West Bank and Gaza Strip has been placed under Israeli military rule.

35. The State of Israel has strategically established illegal colonies to tap Palestinian groundwater and springs, enabling discriminatory allocation of water resources. Per capita basis, Israelis consume more than five times as much water as Palestinians, even though their population is only twice that of Palestinians, despite widespread dry periods where Palestinian municipal water supplies literally dry up for months during the summer.

36. In April and May of 2002 alone, the State of Israel has caused destruction to the Palestinian water sector worth of US$ 7 million. In that period, the State of Israel destructed water networks, denying Palestinians access to running water for up to two weeks at a time.

37. The State of Israel has systematically dug trenches across main roads, disrupting water and sewer mains and telecommunication lines to Palestinians homes, caused intentional damage to pumping facilities, intentional destruction of water transmission lines from wells located outside city limits, obstruction of municipal crews from carrying out emergency repair work, killing a municipality engineer in Nablus. A well operator from Jenin was taken hostage twice.

VII. Due Process Violations and Torture

38. Since 1967 to date, the State of Israel has arbitrarily detained over 620,000 Palestinians. In 1989 alone, the State of Israel detained 50,000 Palestinians, representing 16% of the entire male population of the West Bank and Gaza Strip between the ages of 14 and 55. By way of comparison, that same year, out of a total African population of 24 million in South Africa, no more than 5,000 or 0.2% were detained for security offenses against the apartheid regime.

39. Since 1948, the State of Israel has detained thousands of Palestinians without charge or trial.

40. Over 200 Palestinian prisoners have died while in Israeli custody, due to torture, ill-treatment, deprivation of medical treatment, and neglect.

41. The State of Israel has systematically tortured and ill-treated approximately 80% of all Palestinian detainees. Methods of torture used by the State of Israel include both psychological and physical torture, including beatings of sensitive organs, choking, pulling of hair off the body, prolonged solitary confinement, subjecting Palestinian detainees to noise, screams, and threats against their families. Other forms of torture and ill-treatment applied by the State of Israel against Palestinian detainees include forcing a person to stand, hooded and handcuffed, for long periods of time, while depriving him of food or sleep, starvation, the use of electric shocks, burnings, beatings with hands, fists, truncheons, and boots, deprivation of food, sleep, and basic hygiene, resulting in lice and general discomfort, and forcing detainees to stand for protracted periods of time.

42. In the occupied Palestinian territories, the State of Israel has established military courts that do not comply with fair trial standards.

43. The State of Israel provides virtual impunity for those Israeli soldiers and settlers, who commit crimes against Palestinians. The State of Israel has failed to investigate or properly and impartially investigate or prosecute those Israeli soldiers and settlers, who have committed crimes against Palestinians. The State of Israel has denied any remedy for Palestinian victims, including denies compensation.

VIII. Destruction of Means of Livelihood

44. Since 1967, the State of Israel has uprooted hundreds of thousands of trees. In 1984, the State of Israel issued a military order which made it illegal for Palestinians to plant a new or replacement fruit tree without a permit. During the summer of 1988, the state of Israel burnt 8,000 olive and fruit trees and thousands of dunums of wheat. Between 1993 and August 2001, the State of Israel has uprooted 280,000 fruit and olive trees belonging to Palestinians in the West Bank alone. In 2001 alone, the State of Israel uprooted 23,551 fruit and olive trees.

45. The State of Israel has deliberately strangulated the Palestinian economy with forced dependency through border controls of imports and exports, exploitation of natural resources, de-development of Palestinian industries and businesses, violation of the full range of employment and workers' rights, including through closures and curfews.

46. The State of Israel has deliberately imposed a range of measures and acts that have diminished the living conditions of Palestinians to an extent that can only result in their physical destruction. Methods include the confiscation and expropriation of Palestinian land and other natural resources, particularly, water, which has seriously affected the health and viability of Palestinian communities and their way of life. The State of Israel has damaged Palestinian property and environment through the use of heavy weaponry and has permitted dumping toxic and hazardous products. The State of Israel has imposed restrictions on movement on Palestinians in and out of Palestinian localities, affecting population centers and their associated agricultural and economic communities, including restrictions on movement, depriving them of access to their land and property.

IX. Discrimination and Apartheid

47. The State of Israel imposed a tax system on Palestinians, while, in per capita terms, Israeli Jews received fifty times more grants than Palestinians. Of aid spent in the occupied Palestinian territories, 96.5% was spent on Israeli settlers, and 3.5% on the 90% Palestinian population. In 1992, discounting East Jerusalem, Israeli settlers constituted barely 6% of the West Bank and Gaza populations. Although since 1970, the State of Israel required Palestinian workers to pay dues for the Histadrut, Palestinian workers cannot be members of this trade union federation. Between 1970 and 1994, the Histadrut confiscated NIS 700 million from Palestinian workers without these workers being represented.

48. Since 1948, the State of Israel has increasingly imposed segregation and apartheid, including by cutting off Palestinians from access to wider Arab communities in neighboring Arab states, cutting Palestinians from their families and communities in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip.

49. Since 1967, the State of Israel has separated and isolated Palestinians in East Jerusalem from their families in other parts of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Since 1987, the State of Israel has separated and isolated Palestinian communities through barbed wired fences and iron gates, for example Dheishe refugee camp, near Bethlehem. Since 1989, the State of Israel has segregated, isolated and separated the Gaza Strip from the West Bank, including East Jerusalem and to outside neighboring countries.

50. Since 1993, the State of Israel has denied Palestinians in the West Bank access to the Gaza Strip and Israel. Since this period, the State of Israel has used curfews, partial and total closures on an ad hoc basis. Since 1993, the State of Israel further separated Palestinian communities inside the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, separating villages from cities and villages from villages, through checkpoints, bypass roads, settlements and closures.

51. Since March 2001, the State of Israel dug trenches into main roads, cutting of all movement for Palestinian villagers to any other area, including urban centers upon which they rely for work, education, humanitarian aid and assistance, including medicines, field clinics and hospital, and crucial supplies, including food and water. Since June 2001, the State of Israel dug more trenches and erected iron gates in some areas, closing off villages and cities. Since June 2002, the State of Israel has segregated, separated and isolated more than 11,000 Palestinians living between the 1967-demarcation line and a currently built wall or so-called 'security fence' in the north of the West Bank.

X. Denial of Freedom of the Press

52. The State of Israel has barred journalists access to areas, subjected journalists to physical violence and harassment, arrested and detained journalists, restricted access to Palestinian sources of information, for example, the closure of press agencies, impersonation of journalists and confiscation of materials, including footage, cameras, and films.

XI. Denial of Education

53. The State of Israel has repressed Palestinian education by closures, raids and destruction. The State of Israel has killed, injured, detained and harassed Palestinian professors, lecturers, teachers and students. The State of Israel has regularly closed schools and universities in the West Bank and Gaza for prolonged periods, disrupting Palestinian education, and has banned alternative education. Furthermore, the State of Israel has occupied many schools and destructed school property. The State of Israel has raided schools and universities and used tear gas inside school buildings.

XII. Denial of Freedom of Religion

54. The State of Israel has obstructed and harassed worship. The State of Israel has raided mosques and harassed worshippers. The State of Israel has allowed its soldiers to shoot tear gas inside places of worships, have assaulted mosques and churches, has disrupted the burial rites of Palestinians.

[docbud]

So, what's your opinion?

Or do you just enjoy copying and pasting???

[Abu Bakr]

Originally posted by docbud:
So, what's your opinion?

Or do you just enjoy copying and pasting???

Just reminding you in the west what your taxes go to and what you seem to be completely unwilling to condemn and stop.

[aberdeenwriter]

Here's an example of what the Israelis made them do!

Palestinian textbooks contain poems glorifying child martyrs. Yasser Arafat has called dead Palestinian children "the greatest message to the world" [PA TV, Jan. 15, 2002]. Soccer tournaments and summer camps are named after teenage suicide bombers, thus encouraging children and youth to follow these role models.

Asked on a June 2002 PA TV broadcast whether she prefers Shahada or peace and full rights for the Palestinian people, an articulate 11-year-old girl replies without hesitation, "Shahada."

And according to Palestinian surveys, between 70 per cent and 80 per cent of Palestinian children share her aspiration. Taught to overcome their natural fear of death, they are the young suicide bombers of the future - and they won't all be lucky enough to be intercepted.

[Abu Bakr]

Originally posted by aberdeenwriter:
Here's an example of what the Israelis made them do!

So you can't show that anything in that list above is wrong? And therefor you bring this up to score a few sentimental points. Except, like I said in the other thread.

The Shahada is the Muslim declaration of faith.

La ilaha il-Allah Muhammadan rasul Allah.

How about trying to stay on topic?

[vmarks]

Why then is it also used to describe one who kills himself in an effort to kill others- "martyr" "shahid" "shahada" - or is suicide bombing a declaration of faith? How is this not a celebration, a worship, of death?

54 charges by a convicted terrorist thug serving five life sentences, who led a prison hunger strike, but didn't really mean the strike was for himself, he ate while others struck for him. Which fits the pattern, he lived while he sent others to die for him.

I could go through the charges one by one, but will only do so if you satisfactorily answer my questions above and I can set aside some time to address every false and deceptive claim of Barghouti the convicted murderer.

[ebuddy]

As of late September 2003, according to the head of Israeli military intelligence, Maj.-Gen. Zeevi-Farkash, orders for terrorist attacks were actually coming directly from Arafat's headquarters.
As early as 1997, Arafat authorized Hamas and Islamic Jihad attacks; he formed an umbrella group together with these Islamists organizations called the "Nationalist and Islamic Forces" that coordinated attacks against Israel, during the recent intifada, under the leadership of Fatah.
Arafat finances suicide bombings; he has paid operatives, while his office has funded explosive materials, manufactured locally or imported from abroad, like in the case of Iran.
Arafat actually commands the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, which has taken a leading role in shooting incidents and bombing attacks against Israeli civilians. As the mastermind of the second Palestinian intifada of September 2000, according to Palestinian sources, his influence over the scope and timing of the violence is extensive and even decisive.
Orders for Terrorist Attacks Come from Arafat's HQ
Yasser Arafat's record of not fighting terror was a cause of concern and consternation for the Israeli military soon after the Oslo Accords were signed in 1993. When Arafat entered the Gaza Strip in 1994, he already smuggled two PLO operatives with their weapons inside his Mercedes limousine.1 In 1998, Maj.-Gen. Moshe Ya'alon, then head of military intelligence, noted: "Sadly, I cannot say that at any point since it entered the territory, in May 1994, that the Palestinian Authority acted decisively and in a clear-cut way against the terrorist operational capability of Hamas, as well as Islamic Jihad."2
On September 28, 2003, military intelligence head Maj.-Gen. Aharon Zeevi-Farkash disclosed that orders for terrorist attacks are still emanating from Yasser Arafat's Ramallah compound. While not saying that Arafat himself is ordering terrorist attacks, it is extremely unlikely that these communications for operations against Israelis would be permitted without Arafat's knowledge and approval.3
The international community has been debating the Israeli Cabinet's decision to remove Arafat. A broad international consensus has arisen that Arafat is an obstacle to peace. Even France's President Jacques Chirac recently said, "Arafat is responsible for the failure, for all the failures, because he always wanted a little more."4 Nonetheless, it is far less accepted that Arafat, in fact, is personally responsible for much of the ongoing terrorism.
Arafat Authorized Hamas and Islamic Jihad Attacks
During March 9-13, 1997 (and perhaps earlier), Arafat met personally in Gaza with the leaders of Hamas and other militant groups, and gave them the "green light" to resume terrorist attacks. Following those meetings, Chief of Staff Lt.-Gen. Amnon Lipkin-Shahak told Israel Radio on March 23, 1997: "Organizations such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad have an understanding from the Palestinian Authority to carry out attacks." After the outbreak of the violence in September 2000, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Fatah coordinated together under the umbrella of the "Nationalist and Islamic Forces," led by Fatah.
Arafat Finances Suicide Bombings
In a memorandum captured in Operation Defensive Shield, the Secretary-General of the Fatah office in Tulkarm requested that Arafat provide $2,000 to each of 15 specifically named "Fighting Brethren" of the Tanzim military wing of Fatah. According to Israeli military sources, each of the "fighters" was involved in the planning or execution of suicide attacks. With his own signature in Arabic, Arafat authorized the payment of $800 to each of the "fighters" on April 5, 2001.
Arafat Finances Terrorist Attacks
On September 19, 2001, Arafat personally approved a request for payment of $600 to three people including Ra'ad Karmi, commander of the Tanzim in Tulkarm, who was personally involved in at least 25 shooting attacks against Israelis. Arafat funded Karmi even though Israel had placed Karmi on its "most-wanted" list just three months earlier.5 On the same day, Arafat approved payment to Amar Qadan, a member of his own Force-17 "Presidential Guard," who was involved in terrorist operations.
A second request was faxed to Arafat to fund 12 more terrorists. According to Colonel Miri Eisin of the IDF Intelligence Branch, "Every single one of them was on our wanted list...these are Tanzim members, which is Arafat's own party."6 Arafat knew well that these individuals were involved in terrorism. Nevertheless, on January 7, 2002, "Arafat himself - in his handwriting, with his signature...agreed to pay the money."7
On January 17, 2002, two and a half weeks later, a Palestinian killed six Israelis and wounded twenty-six at a bat-mitzvah party in Hadera, initiated and planned by one of those on Arafat's list � Mansur Saleh Sharim, who was already responsible for the deaths of at least three Israelis. Senior Fatah figures in Israeli custody, like Marwan Barghouti, admitted subsequently that Arafat approved funding for Fatah operatives with the knowledge that it would be used to finance terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians.8

[ebuddy]

Arafat Commands the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades
While some draw a distinction between Yasser Arafat's Fatah organization and the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, Palestinians refute such assertions. The leader of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades in Tulkarm told USA Today in March 2002: "The truth is, we are Fatah, but we didn't operate under the name of Fatah....We are the armed wing of the organization. We receive our instructions from Fatah. Our commander is Yasser Arafat himself."9
In the early months of 2002, the number of attacks by the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, including suicide bombings, exceeded those of Hamas and Islamic Jihad. On September 16, 2001, the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades requested payment to cover expenses for "production of explosive charges" from Arafat's financial confidante, Fuad Shubaki, who, as the head of the Palestinian Authority's "Armed Forces Financial Directorate," was also the mastermind behind the Karine-A weapons ship delivery from Iran. That ship also carried huge amounts of C-4 explosives that could only be used for bombing attacks against Israel.
Arafat has been a participant in, and supreme commander of, many of the Palestinians' terror activities. He has knowingly funded terrorists, both before and after they committed crimes. He has authorized plans for terror actions. What Israel has put together on Arafat's involvement in terrorism is only the tip of the iceberg; these are only the connections that have been documented in captured materials. As the mastermind of the entire September 2000 intifada, his impact has been far more widespread.10 Even though he had committed at Oslo to "put an end to decades of confrontation and conflict...and strive to live in peaceful coexistence, mutual dignity and security,"11 Arafat's actions over the past decade have proven the opposite.
On September 19, 2003, the UN General Assembly met in Emergency Special Session and adopted a resolution demanding that Israel "desist from any act of deportation and to cease any threat to the safety of the elected President of the Palestinian Authority." The UN resolution derives its legal basis from international humanitarian law in general, and the 1949 Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War (Fourth Geneva Convention). But if Arafat is not just a civilian heading a government, but is actually directing and financing military activities and terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians, he loses any protection afforded him by international law.

[Abu Bakr]

Arafat actually commands the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades

This is in direct contradiction of the conviction of Marwan Barghouti. Which means that either was his sentencing unfair(duh ) or this is wrong. Which is it?


And it's interesting that no one will try to disprove the charges but go on the usual tirade of propaganda.

Start a new thread if you want to discuss Arafat or anything like that. In this thread you have the chance to disprove the charges. Can't do it, can you?

[ebuddy]

Summary of charges against Israel; The State of Israel is directly and indirectly criminally responsible for committing specific acts of genocide, ethnic cleansing, including uprooting Palestinians by military attacks, arbitrary arrests and illegal imprisonment, administrative detention, attacks on women, children and the elderly, systematic and wanton destruction of property and homes, systematic expropriation and dispossession, violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, including assassinations, confiscation of lands and property, creation of separate reserves and Bantustans, disrupting public life and terrorizing a whole population, including through acts of collective punishment and reprisals, racial discrimination, stealing, looting and plundering, infliction of serious bodily or mental harm, including torture, ill-treatment, cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment and punishment, mutilation, causing death and serious injury, deliberate imposition of living conditions calculated to cause physical destruction in whole or in part, approving and implementing legislative measures calculated to prevent Palestinians from participation in the political, social, economic and cultural life and the deliberate creation of conditions preventing the full development of Palestinians, exploitation of labor, persecution of organizations and members, depriving persons of fundamental rights and freedoms because they oppose military occupation, colonialism, or apartheid, and other criminal acts.

Why refute them, these are all things that occur in regions of strife. Are you saying the Palestinians haven't committed same? You might say; THIS ISN'T ABOUT THE PALESTINIAN!!! and I would say in reply; "of course it isn't". Can't you see how silly this all is Abu. I mean, if you and your wife and children attack my home and I fire back killing you, your wife, and your children; am I somehow in violation of law for killing women and children? Would you like to see a comparison between the number of innocent children and women killed at the hands of Palestinian suicide bombers and the number of innocents killed by Israeli military action? Suicide bombers openly attack innocent civilians, it's how terrorism works. Collateral damage is another thing entirely. I'm familiar with this style of debate, it's exactly how some are trying to paint the US and it's a really fuzzy brush to say the least. Every single solitary item in your summary list above include actions committed by Palestinians. Read the list. It's just so silly, it really is. Anything for Jerusalem right? It never ends.

[Abu Bakr]

Originally posted by ebuddy:
Read the list. It's just so silly, it really is.

Silly? You might call it silly, but these are my friends and family members being slaughtered because of the occupation. Calling it silly is a disgrace.

3. In Lebanon, the State of Israel killed over 29,500 Palestinians and Lebanese civilians, 40% were children. During various invasions, the State of Israel forcibly evicted more than 100,000 Palestinian and Lebanese civilians.

Silly?

5. Since the end of September 2000, the State of Israel and its army and citizens have killed 1,639 Palestinians, including 336 children.

Silly?

7. Since the end of September 2000, the State of Israel has killed more than 550 Palestinians through shelling and bombardments of civilian and public infrastructure, homes, schools and other places. The State of Israel has caused death and injury to more Palestinians at checkpoints and due to prevention of medical access or restrictions of movement.

Silly?

18. The State of Israel has forcibly expelled more than 780,000 Palestinians, which amounted to 60% of the total Palestinian population, and depopulated and completely destroyed 531 Palestinian villages and localities. In 1948, the State of Israel internally displaced approximately 37,500 Palestinians. Even after the armistice agreements of 1949, the State of Israel continued to expel thousands of Palestinians, notably from the 'Little Triangle', and in the south from Majdal, to Faluja and Bir Saba, the Hebron region, and from the east and north of the Sea of Galilee.

Silly?

23. Since 1967, the State of Israel has demolished at least 9,000 Palestinian homes, leaving 50,000 Palestinians homeless. In August 1971 alone, the State of Israel and the Israeli army, led by Israel's current Prime Minister, demolished 2,000 Palestinian homes in the Gaza Strip, uprooting 12,000 Palestinian refugees for the second time in their lives.

Silly?

36. In April and May of 2002 alone, the State of Israel has caused destruction to the Palestinian water sector worth of US$ 7 million. In that period, the State of Israel destructed water networks, denying Palestinians access to running water for up to two weeks at a time.

Silly?

44. Since 1967, the State of Israel has uprooted hundreds of thousands of trees. In 1984, the State of Israel issued a military order which made it illegal for Palestinians to plant a new or replacement fruit tree without a permit. During the summer of 1988, the state of Israel burnt 8,000 olive and fruit trees and thousands of dunums of wheat. Between 1993 and August 2001, the State of Israel has uprooted 280,000 fruit and olive trees belonging to Palestinians in the West Bank alone. In 2001 alone, the State of Israel uprooted 23,551 fruit and olive trees.

Silly?

47. The State of Israel imposed a tax system on Palestinians, while, in per capita terms, Israeli Jews received fifty times more grants than Palestinians. Of aid spent in the occupied Palestinian territories, 96.5% was spent on Israeli settlers, and 3.5% on the 90% Palestinian population. In 1992, discounting East Jerusalem, Israeli settlers constituted barely 6% of the West Bank and Gaza populations. Although since 1970, the State of Israel required Palestinian workers to pay dues for the Histadrut, Palestinian workers cannot be members of this trade union federation. Between 1970 and 1994, the Histadrut confiscated NIS 700 million from Palestinian workers without these workers being represented.

Silly?

[ebuddy]

Bang your head if you want, you're not solving anything.

Silly? You might call it silly, but these are my friends and family members being slaughtered because of the occupation. Calling it silly is a disgrace.

If you truly cared about them, you'd insist they stop inciting war.

3. In Lebanon, the State of Israel killed over 29,500 Palestinians and Lebanese civilians, 40% were children. During various invasions, the State of Israel forcibly evicted more than 100,000 Palestinian and Lebanese civilians.

In November 1968 the PFLP, operating under the direction of George Habbash�s associate Dr Wadi� Haddad, better known to Palestinians as �The Master�, carried out the first of many spectacular plane hijackings: an El Al plane flying from Rome to Tel Aviv was directed to Algeria. A month later the PFLP attacked an Israeli aircraft at Athens airport. The Israelis refused to accede to the demand to release Palestinian fighters in their prisons and retaliated by attacking Beirut airport and destroying thirteen parked aircraft. The Lebanese were being drawn into the conflict without having any say in the matter and within a few years Lebanon become ravaged by war.

Want war to stop? Want death to stop? Urge your 'friends and relatives' to quit hijacking airplanes and committing acts of terrorism. Yes, illustrating attrocities committed by those exacting military response to criminal misconduct including the deliberate targeting of civilians for political influence is silly. It really is just goofy.

Silly? 5. Since the end of September 2000, the State of Israel and its army and citizens have killed 1,639 Palestinians, including 336 children.

From September of 2000 to April 2002, the below is a list of 'attrocities committed by Palestinians;
464 Israelis have been murdered and 3,700 have been seriously injured since the beginning of the current violence in September 2000.
Is this just and noble?
197 Israelis have been killed since September 2000 in suicide bombings.
Or this?
166 Israelis have been killed since September 2000 in shooting attacks.
Or that?
256 Israelis were killed by Palestinian terror from the signing of the Declaration of Principles with the PLO on September 13, 1993, to the outbreak of the current violence seven years later.
Want killing to stop?
12,479 attacks (including shooting, bombing, grenade assaults, stabbing) have occurred since September 2000.
Apparently not.
As of the article; 460 terror attacks had occurred in the past 3 weeks.
Anything for Jerusalem right?

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
So you can't show that anything in that list above is wrong? And therefor you bring this up to score a few sentimental points. Except, like I said in the other thread.

The Shahada is the Muslim declaration of faith.

La ilaha il-Allah Muhammadan rasul Allah.

How about trying to stay on topic?

I shall try.

The declaration of faith explanation may be as you say. But are you also saying that NONE of these children, TV show hosts, song writers, producers, the Director of the Palestinian Children's Aid Association nor even Yassir Arafat himself, understand the true meaning of Shahada?

Song and Dance glorifying child combat and Shahada
In this MTV style music video from PA TV children dance to calls to attack Israelis: "You will not be saved, Oh Zionist, from the volcano of my county's stones " and to the words "I will even willingly fall as a Shahid. " Scenes include throwing stones and frenzied "war dances ". [PA TV 2002 - 2003, repeatedly]

A Farewell Letter Music Video
A young boy leaves a farewell letter to his parents and goes off to seek Death for Allah - Shahada - describing the death he aspires as "sweet. " This PA indoctrination clip is designed to offset a child s natural fear of death, by depicting Shahada as heroic and tranquil.
[more than 500 times on PA TV 2001- 2003]

B. 11-year old PA girls articulate why they want to die for Allah
[ "because afterlife of Shahid is best "].

Young Children Convinced of Death as a Shahid as Ideal
Two 11 year old girls articulate their personal goal to Die for Allah - Shahada, explaining that all Palestinian children see Shahada because of its promised grand Afterlife, as more worthwhile than living. [PA TV June 2002]

C. PA leaders talk of importance of child Shahids:
[Arafat: "it's the greatest message to the world "]

Yasser Arafat's Message to Children - "Be a Shahid"
Arafat explains that dead Palestinian children- Shahids - are "the greatest message to the world ".
[PA TV Jan. 15, 2002]

"We Teach Children Shahada" - Head of Children's Organization "
In English, PA leaders have denied that they encourage their children to aspire to Shahada. However in Arabic, the PA continues to express pride in educating children to aspire to Shahada, portraying it as a national achievement. The Director of the Palestinian Children's Aid Association candidly reiterated this PA educational policy, on PA TV. [May 4, 2003]

[Abu Bakr]

Originally posted by ebuddy:
Bang your head if you want, you're not solving anything.

If you truly cared about them, you'd insist they stop inciting war.

We're trying but Israel seems hellbent on keeping the war going.

Want war to stop? Want death to stop? Urge your 'friends and relatives' to quit hijacking airplanes and committing acts of terrorism. Yes, illustrating attrocities committed by those exacting military response to criminal misconduct including the deliberate targeting of civilians for political influence is silly. It really is just goofy.

I'll think I will give you the honour of being the first person to join my ignore list for this disgraceful comment of yours. Not a single person in my family or of my friends has committed a terrorist attack. You sir disgust me.

From September of 2000 to April 2002, the below is a list of 'attrocities committed by Palestinians;
464 Israelis have been murdered and 3,700 have been seriously injured since the beginning of the current violence in September 2000.
Is this just and noble?
197 Israelis have been killed since September 2000 in suicide bombings.
Or this?
166 Israelis have been killed since September 2000 in shooting attacks.
Or that?
256 Israelis were killed by Palestinian terror from the signing of the Declaration of Principles with the PLO on September 13, 1993, to the outbreak of the current violence seven years later.
Want killing to stop?
12,479 attacks (including shooting, bombing, grenade assaults, stabbing) have occurred since September 2000.
Apparently not.
As of the article; 460 terror attacks had occurred in the past 3 weeks.
Anything for Jerusalem right?

As long as they weren't illegal colonizers or soldiers then no, it's not just and noble. It's just as disgusting as dropping a 500kg bomb onto an apartment building to get one suspected "terrorist".

This will be the last time I spend my time on you. Your comment about my dead relatives and friends are unbelievable and I think it's best for all if I ignore you from now on.

[Abu Bakr]

Originally posted by aberdeenwriter:
I shall try.

And you failed again.

Shahid ≠ Shahada

Shahid means witness often translated as Martyr.

Shahada is the declaration of faith.

[lil'babykitten]

.

[ebuddy]

As long as they weren't illegal colonizers or soldiers then no, it's not just and noble. It's just as disgusting as dropping a 500kg bomb onto an apartment building to get one suspected "terrorist".

To this I'd agree and I might add; if you are militarily engaging Israelis you'd do well for your innocent brethren not to stage aggression and live among innocent civilians as it is often difficult for your enemy to decipher the difference between innocents and combatants. Do not stage aggression from apartment complexes, mosques, and quarter yourself with innocent civilians. Quarter yourself with other combatants, not innocent civilians. You're putting them at great risk when you do that.

It should be made clear that I do not want to see ANY innocent civilian lives lost regardless of who they are related to. I wish their lives meant as much to those staging aggression and then hiding among the innocent.

[Abu Bakr]

I'm going to give you guys a hint.

google for "Shahada"

then

google for "Shuhada"


Then you will notice how "trustworthy" that sites of yours are. There is a reason for them using the word Shahada instead of Shuhada.

But of course you'll ignore it.

Now I've helped you. Will you take a look at the charges and see if you can disprove them?

[vmarks]

you hint and point to google but you won't really answer. I think that is revealing about how genuinely you want your convicted murderer's charges answered - that is, not much.

[Abu Bakr]

If you don't want to(can't?) answer the charges it's ok.

Isn't it the job of a moderator to keep threads on topic?

[vmarks]

Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
If you don't want to(can't?) answer the charges it's ok.

Isn't it the job of a moderator to keep threads on topic?

If you don't want to answer the question that was put to you, it's alright.

I can answer every one of those charges, but you have revealed you aren't interested in the discussion because you won't answer my simple question to you.

Why should I invest the time in answering 54 false charges in detail if you won't address one simple question?

I don't need to exercise any special moderator powers simply because you refuse to engage and participate in discussion by answering the question I put to you.

[Abu Bakr]

A moderator pushing for a derail.

Ah well. Lets take a look at your extremely loaded and insulting question.

Originally posted by the "moderator" vmarks:
Why then is it also used to describe one who kills himself in an effort to kill others- "martyr" "shahid" "shahada" - or is suicide bombing a declaration of faith? How is this not a celebration, a worship, of death?

It isn't. Shuhada is the "act" of becoming a martyr. Shahada is the declaration of faith. No.

It's not a celebration or worship of death because it has nothing to do with death. A martyr goes directly to the gardens of Heaven. The person never dies.

I wouldn't bet on you not following this up with more loaded and insulting question for two reasons. I'm forbidden by my religion to do so and because the odds would not be in my favour.

[aberdeenwriter]

Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
And you failed again.

Shahid ≠ Shahada

Shahid means witness often translated as Martyr.

Shahada is the declaration of faith.

I like potato and you like potahto,
I say Shahida and you say Shahada;
Potato, potahto, Shahida, Shahada!
Let's call the bombings off!

[Abu Bakr]

Originally posted by aberdeenwriter:
I like potato and you like potahto,
I say Shahida and you say Shahada;
Potato, potahto, Shahida, Shahada!
Let's call the bombings off!

No. It has two completely different meanings. That a certain site uses "Shahada" just shows their real intentions.

And still no one has touched the charges.

Interesting isn't it?

[aberdeenwriter]

When the North Vietnamese were reluctant to continue negotiating at the Paris Peace Talks in the early 1970's, President Nixon embarked on a campaign of bombings which were successful in re-engaging the North Vietnamese.

Once they returned to the bargaining table the bombings stopped.

I get the impression that the Israelis really are moved by the suicide bombings to want to negotiate, but there are forces within Israel which will not allow Sharon to negotiate without a display of good faith.

Why wouldn't the PA leadership agree to a trial cessation of the bombings for let's say 90 days so Sharon can use that to persuade his more reluctant factions to cool their jets and allow peace a chance to develop?

I mean, if it doesn't work you can always go back to the bombings, right?

What if Sharon agreed to that, would the PA go for it, in your opinion?

[nath]

Originally posted by aberdeenwriter:
Why wouldn't the PA leadership agree to a trial cessation of the bombings for let's say 90 days so Sharon can use that to persuade his more reluctant factions to cool their jets and allow peace a chance to develop?

That is the the most obvious way that the peace process (any peace process) could be re-invigorated.

However it seems from recent history that in this particular conflict things have just gone too far and too many promises have been broken on both sides. The people on the ground (militants and soldiers) are too on edge and I can't believe that 90 days would pass without someone committing an atrocity (perhaps even someone doing so - on either side - with the express intent of ending the ceasefire).

As in Northern Ireland, the leaders on both sides will have to reach a point where, for a time, they are willing to set aside random and/or isolated violence in pursuit of a lasting settlement.

[Abu Bakr]

The resistance and terrorists have respected a truce before. Only problem was that the Israelis continued their assassination policy thereby making sure the resistance and the terrorists have nothing to lose by resuming the fight.

And still no one has tried to counter the charges.........



and

: points to signature :

[slow moe]

Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
And still no one has touched the charges.

Interesting isn't it?

If I was a neutral guy, I would say then, after reading the charges, that the Israeli's are just as blood thirsty as the Palestinians. But, I'm not a neutral kinda of guy.

[vmarks]

Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
The resistance and terrorists have respected a truce before. Only problem was that the Israelis continued their assassination policy thereby making sure the resistance and the terrorists have nothing to lose by resuming the fight.

WHEN? Certainly not when Abu Mazen was PM- Hamas insisted they had the right to continue attacks and Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade kept attacking.

the PA and PLO has only held off from attacking briefly in order to get concessions from Israel, and upon receiving them, continues attacking.

And still no one has tried to counter the charges.........

I've been spending the past few hours going over each false charge piece by piece and addressing it in one large post that is forthcoming, and the most you can do is whine about how no one is taking you seriously.

and

: points to signature :

Darn right, no one should take you seriously, you're quoting a convicted murderous thug who had nothing more praiseworthy to his name then sending children to their deaths- oh wait, as far as you're concerned, death has nothing to do with it- he sent children to paradise.

Either you want a response to these false charges or you don't- but either way, stop whining about it when I have said that I would respond and am in the process of assembling the response.

[Wiskedjak]

Israel is exempt from punishment, or even blame, for ethnic cleansing and genocide. The world still feels guilty for events over 50 years old; a guilt which Israel is more than willing to take advantage of.

Of course, Palestine is not without it's share of crimes against humanity.

[Abu Bakr]

hmmmm, where did my post go? I posted above wiskedjak.

[vmarks]

Marwan Barghouti presented these charges in the course of defending himself while he was on trial for murder, a trial where he was convicted of all charges and is currently serving 5 life sentences. If he is ever released, it will be due to a prisoner exchange, but the fact of his guilt remains.
A panel of three judges, Sarah Sirota, Amiram Benyamini and Avraham Tal, convicted Barghouti on May 20 of involvement in the murder of Yula Hen, shot dead at a Givat Ze’ev gas station in January 2002, and of a Greek Orthodox priest near Ma’aleh Adumim in June 2002.

Barghouti was also convicted of direct responsibility for the murders of Yosef Havi, Elyahu Dahan, and the police officer Selim Barichat, in the shooting attack against the Sea Food Market restaurant in Tel Aviv in March 2002.

Five life sentences, plus 40 years

The opening statement makes a wild number of false and misleading charges with no real support until the later specifics. Let us begin addressing the specifics.
1. The accusation of genocide, listing numerous battles as cases of genocide when they factually were not. For example, Jenin was originally claimed to be a massacre of thousands with an accompanying mass grave. These claims proved false, with about 50 dead, and no mass graves.
The principle in law here is known as falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus - false in one, false in all- meaning if testimony of a witness on a material issue is willfully false and given with an intention to to deceive, the jury may disregard all the witness' testimony. Lydda, Deir Yassin, and others in that long list are also either not massacres or falsely assigning total blame to Israel. Lydda was not a massacre or genocide, and in fact the Israelis didn't win at Lydda. They were pretty handily turned back. As for Deir Yassin:
Hazen Nusseibeh, an editor of the Palestine Broadcasting Service's Arabic news in 1948, was interviewed for the BBC television series "Israel and the Arabs: the 50-year conflict." He describes an encounter with Deir Yassin survivors and Palestinian leaders, including Hussein Khalidi, the secretary of the Arab Higher Committee, at the Jaffa Gate of Jerusalem's Old City.

"I asked Dr. Khalidi how we should cover the story," recalled Nusseibeh, now living in Amman. He said, "We must make the most of this". So we wrote a press release stating that at Deir Yassin children were murdered, pregnant women were raped. All sorts of atrocities."
A Deir Yassin survivor, identified as Abu Mahmud, said the villagers protested at the time.
"We said, 'there was no rape.' Khalidi said, 'We have to say this, so the Arab armies will come to liberate Palestine from the Jews'."
In an arlicle "Deir Yassin a casualty of guns and propaganda", by Paul Holmes (Reuters) (http://www.metimes.com/issue98-16/reg/deir.html) he interviewing Mohammed Radwan, who was a resident of Deir Yassi in 1948, and fought for several hours before ruing out of bullets.
"I know when I speak that God is up there and God knows the truth and God will not forgive the liars", said Radwan, who puts the number of villagers killed at 93, listed in his own handwriting. "There were no rapes. It's all lies. There were no pregnant women who were slit open. It was propaganda that... Arabs put out so Arab the armies would invade" he said. "They ended up expelling people from all of Palestine on the rumor of Deir Yassin."
Sabra and Shatilla commonly gets blamed on Ariel Sharon. Sharon was asleep at the time that the massacre took place, and had no news of it and had issued no approval of it- it was carried out by the Christian Phalange, who were responding to the oppression they had received. Barghouti supports uprising against oppression, but I suppose that's only when he's doing the uprising.
Point number 2 addresses deaths of Palestinians and other Arabs in wars Arabs started in 1947 and in 1967. Don't start wars and expect to come out without casualties. In 1948 the State of Israel was declared within the bounds of UN resolution (remember those? Barghouti cites them at the beginning, but can't be bothered to name which ones he means) and immediately following, Arab states surrounding declared the imperative to "Kill the Jews!" What a tragedy it must be for Barghouti that the Jews would survive and Arabs would suffer any casualties at all. In 1967 Egypt violated UN resolution and told the UN to leave because it was going to launch a war. Which it did. Israel fought off the war started by Egypt, Jordan, and Syria, and lived to see another day, no thanks to the UN who can't be bothered to enforce such resolutions that Egypt violated. Israeli PM at the time, Abba Eban, said "what good is an umbrella if it folds up the minute the rain comes?" The UN was supposed to have stood up to Egypt. It proved useless. Again, Barghouti sheds tears that Arabs died in wars that they began. He isn't sorry they started a war of agression, he's just sorry they lost.
3. Barghouti blames Israel for deaths and evictions: Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen) accuses the Arab armies of having abandoned the Palestinians after they "forced them to emigrate and to leave their homeland and threw them into prisons similar to the ghettos in which the Jews used to live." - "Abu Mazen Charges That The Arab States Are the Cause of the Palestinian Refugee Problem" Wall Street Journal, June 5 2003.
4. Barghouti decries the death of children under the age of 16. Don't train children to execute attacks by wearing bomb belts at checkpoints (when they should be in school) or by using them as shields. Don't turn children into combatants.
Terrorism against civilians is the ultimate form of collective punishment. Every Israeli, regardless of his or her support for or opposition to governmental policy is targeted for death just for being Israelis or Jews. Yet those who support Palestinian terrorism complain most loudly when a home used by a terrorist is destroyed as an economic deterrent against those who harbor terrorists. - Dershowitz, Case for Israel, p167
5. Those numbers are inflated with people who have martyred themselves and people Palestinians have killed, alleging that they were collaborators with Israel. "(S)uch numbers hide as much as they reveal: They lump combatants in with noncombatants, suicide bombers with innocent civilians, and report Palestinian “collaborators” murdered by their own compatriots as if they had been killed by Israel. Correcting for such distortions, we can arrive at a figure of 617 Palestinian noncombatants killed by Israel, compared to 471 Israeli noncombatants killed by Palestinians. While Israelis account for 27 percent of the total fatalities as generally reported, they represent 43 percent of these noncombatant victims. --
http://www.ict.org.il/articles/artic...?articleid=439
6. Assassination policy and bystanders. Targeting the military leaders of an enemy during hostilities is perfectly proper under the laws of war, which is what Israel - as well as the United States and other democracies - has done.
In one sense, the polar opposite of collective punishment is targeted assassination. This tactic seeks to prevent future terrorism by incapacitating those who are planning to carry it out but are beyond the reach of other methods of incapacitation, such as arrest. Even where there are collateral victims, there are fewer of them than in typical military reprisals. Under international law it is entirely legal to target and kill an enemy combatant who has not surrendered.
7. This is the same point as point 5, only with a claim added about infrastructure, schools, and medical access. Palestinian terrorists use ambulances as personal transport, so obviously they can no longer be afforded the trust that grants them free movement without being investigated. Soldiers regularly administer medical treatment at checkpoints, preventing Palestinian death. Israel seized money from terrorist bank accounts and redirected the money to Palestinian schools.
8. repeats point 5. Barghouti is a broken record. He hopes that by repeating it, the facts will contort to his liking.
9. repeats point 7. Terrorist attacks against Israelis and Jews have included the following targets:
A nursery school in which eighteen children and teachers were machine gunned to death.
An elementary school in which twenty-seven children and teachers were killed.
A Jewish community center in which eighty-six civilians were killed.
A Turkish synagogue were twenty-seven Jews at prayer were killed.
A Swiss airliner headed to Israel in which all fourty-seven civilian passengers were killed.
A passenger terminal at Lod Airport in which twenty-seven civilians were killed - mostly Christian pilgrims.
A passover seder in which twenty-nine Jews were killed.
A discotheque for teenagers in which twenty-one mostly Russian Jews were killed.
A Hebrew University cafeteria in which nine people were killed, Jews, Arabs and Christians among the injured.
An airplane filled with Israeli tourists returning from a Channukah vacation in Kenya.
Palestinian snipers who ambushed a mother driving a car with her children. They then came into close range and killed her infant children seatbelted in child car seats at point blank range.
10. War is brutal and ugly. You really think that anything thrown from a helicopter was thrown with the intent to hit children? I think my case above where the Palestinian snipers shot infants seatbelted in their mother's car shows intent more than Barghouti's mention of helicopters.
11. War is brutal and ugly, but creating fiction or embellishing reality to the point of fiction does not help Barghouti's case. As above, false in one, false in all. Further, Affirmanti, non neganti incumbit probatio - the burden of proof lies upon him who affirms, not upon one who denies.
Barghouti claims this happens, but the burden of proof lies with him.
12. Between 1948 and 1967, Palestinian fedayeen sponsored by Egypt and Syria murdered Israeli civilians in hundreds of cross-border raids. These murders took place before Israel occupied any Palestinian land or built any settlements outside of the area it controlled pursuant to the UN partitions and cease-fire that followed the 1948 attack against the newly established Israel. Barghouti is upset that some of these fedayeen were killed.
13. restriction of movement. This is to stop weapons coming in to Palestinians and Palestinians leaving to commit attacks in Israel. Trenches break up tunnels used to carry weapons in, curfews mean that what bad acts (bomb making, qassam rocket making) happen, happen in the light of day where they can be stopped. Denial of access to universities that teach eradicating Israel and replacing it with "Muslim Palestine?" After all, that map of "Muslim Palestine" they are holding at the university shows all of Israel and territories, with Israel gone. Eliminated. At Al-Najah University in Nablus.
14. another emotional appeal, never mind that Palestinians don't mind killing Israeli children as noted above. Do a few bad acts happen in war? Yes, and they are punished. Does that make it as common and widespread as Barghouti wants us to believe? No.
15. The Palestinian Authority shows no respect for human rights. It tortures and kills alleged collaborators without even a semblence of due process. It tolerates little dissent and is completely intolerant of alternative lifestyles. The "humanitarian" UNRWA admitted to employing Hamas terrorists and doesn't care if they do. Israel on the other hand, has one of the best records in the world on women's rights, gays, physically and mentally disabled, freedom of speech, press, dissent, association and religion.
Raji Sourani, the director of the Palestinian Center for Human Rights in Gaza says that he is "constantly amazed by the high standards of the (Israeli) legal systems." - Gerg Myre, "Trial of Palestinian Leader Focuses Attention on Israeli Courts," New York Times, May 5 2003.
16. Repeat. Is this how Barghouti gets the number up to 54, by just copying and pasting from earlier points?
17. See the Abu Mazen quote in the response to point 3.
18. Again. Barghouti doesn't tire of repeats.
19. Qibya, up until the wall (planned by Barak after peace talks broke down, Barak who attempted to make peace with Arafat and Abbas while they planned the current "intifada") was one of the most Israel-friendly cities, having open trade with Israelis without much problem, except when terrorists started using it as an easy way to get into Israel to commit terror. The Mayor of Qibya regrets the wall and misses the economic influx that the Israelis used to bring to the shuk. Saw it in an interview with Thomas Friedman of the NYT, aired on Discovery Times.
20. Don't start wars and then cry do-over when you don't like the results.
21. When Palestinian leaders and people learn that the case for a Palestinian state is strengthened by the acceptance of an Israeli state, when Palestinians want their own state more than they want to destroy Israel, peace will come. Until then, expect measures to limit extremists.
22. In his 1972 memoirs, the former prime minister of Syria, Khalid al-Azm, placed the entire blame for the refugee problem on the Arabs:
"Since 1948 it is we who demanded the right of return of the refugees. . .when it is we who made them leave. . .We brought disaster upon . . .Arab refugees by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear on them to leave. . .We have rendered them dispossessed. . . We have accustomed them to begging . . .We have participated in lowering their moral and social level . . .Then we exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson, and throwing bombs upon . . .men, women, and children- all in the service of political purposes."
23. Didn't Barghouti say this in number 4? Repeat.
24. No, in 1948, Israel was established within the UN Partition plan.
25. Repeat.
26. Repeat. And by the way, the Israeli Supreme Court decided a case in which the Israeli military oredered the expulsion of the sister and brother of a terrorist who had organized several suicide bombings. They were expelled from the West Bank for two years and moved to the Gaza strip on the basis of finding that the sister had sewed suicide belts and the brother had "served as a lookout when his brother and members of his group moved explosive charges from one place to another." The court ruled that the expulsion order, which constituted temporary "assignment of residence" within the territories instead of a transfer out of the territories was valid only if "the person himself who is being expelled presents a real danger."
27. Actually, no. Most of the land is state owned and cannot be bought or sold. Of the land, the 20% Arab population owns 3% of the land. The 80% remaining population owns 3.5% of the land. Israeli Arabs own more than twice as much land as you would expect based on their percentage of the population.
28. After beating the Arab armies that planned to eradicate Israel in the 1967 war, Israel agreed to honor UN Resolution 242, which for the first time in history ordered a nation to return territories legally captured in a defensive war- but it ordered that only as a part of an overall peace agreement recognizing Israel's right to "live in security." 242 requires the withdrawal from some, but not all territories. The occupation was justified in order to "live in security" and 242 didn't require giving up all territories.
No Arab state recognized the right of Israel to live in security, and never called to make peace until much later, when King Hussein called to make peace but by that time had renounced all claim to the West Bank in favor of the PLO. In June of 67, Israel was ready to give up the Golan and Sinai in exchange for peace. Egypt and Syria rejected the offer, and it wasn't until much later that Sinai was given in exchange for peace with Israel- which goes to show that Israel upheld all of the operative principles of 242 by returning land Egypt when Egypt promised peace. Israel also gave land claimed by Jordan when King Hussein made peace with Israel. It also offered to turn over large amounts of the territory captured from Jordan to the PA in exchange for peace, but instead Arafat and Abbas chose violence.
29. Jerusalem is the capital of Israel.
30. Barghouti claims the settlements are illegal. In absence of 242, Israel can keep all territories and settle them. In view of 242, Israel has to give some of them up for peace provided Israel's right to exist in security is recognized. That hasn't happened, they're still justified. Territories gained in a defensive war don't have to be given back under any normal circumstance- 242 only allows for some to be given up and only if the right to live in security is recognized. Recognize that right, mean it, we'll see what happens.
31. The state of Israel prosecuted Baruch Goldstein and others, outlawed Kahane and his parties and the parties of those who share his views. It has ordered its soldiers to prevent settlers from engaging in violence, and has even gone so far lately as to have soldiers prepare to remove settlers from Gaza. Barghouti gets it all wrong.
32. Repeat.
33. No, every country has zoning laws. And those laws can be appealed. Jews aren't allowed to buy homes in Arab villages, but the Israeli supreme court decided that Arabs can buy homes in Jewish areas and the government cannot prevent them from doing so.
34. Repeat. except that Israel negotiated water rights with the PA years ago.
35. Repeat. And Israel gets water from Turkey, by buying it, when the summers cause water shortage concerns.
36. Repeat, only with a destructive theme instead of the stealing accusation, netoerh of which Barghouti provides any proof.
37. more of the embellishment of falsehood.

[vmarks]

38. Veiled comparison to South African Apartheid, and detaining Palestinians, Israel is the only country in the world to have its judiciary face the issue of torture head on. In 1999 the Israeli Supreme Court decided not only is torture absolutely prohibited, but even the types of physical pressure used by the United States - sleep deprivation, uncomfortable positions, loud music, hoods over the head- are prohibited by Isareli law. Even in cases where the pressure is not to elicit a confession, but is used to elicit information that could stop an imminent terrorist attack. Prioer to this decision, Israeli security services did employ physical measures sometimes.
Contrast this with Egypt, Jordan, Morocco, the Philippines, and other Muslim countries, where torture, including lethal torture of purely political prisoners is common and approved of at the highest levels of government.
ONLY Israel has been so repeatedly condemned for a practice that their law does not even permit.
39. Repeat, Israel does put them on trial- Israel is only allowed to hold a person for six months without a trial, and only under very specific circumstances.
40. Repeat, see 38.
41. Repeat, see 38. Torture has been outlawed.
42. Which is it? No trials at all, or no fair trials? Barghouti cannot make up his mind. He must have gotten confused.
43. The State of Israel has compensated families of Palestinian non-combatants wrongfully killed, and publicly apologised. It has investigated and punished soldiers who have committed crimes against Palestinians. When will the PA apologise for killing Israeli non-combatants? When will the PA compensate Israelis instead of paying off the families of the killers? When will the PA prosecute the killers? They certainly can root out and kill "collaboraters", they should have no trouble at all doing the above.
44. Israel actually planted olive trees to replace uprooted ones.
45. Many Palestinians had jobs in Israel, and due to increased attacks in this uprising Arafat and Abbas planned, those jobs have had to go away and border security increase. It's sad that people lose their jobs, but it's less sad than allowing attacks to continue with ease.
46. Repeat.
47. Barghouti doesn't say it, but he has to mean Israeli Arabs, who benefit from the Israeli education system and subsidized Israeli university system. Histadrut is as bad as any union, but it's silly to say that Palestinians weren't didn't benefit when the union increased benefits for workers- the benefits effected all workers as much as the strikes gave all workers the day off. The best case he has is the awarding of grants, and that's a product of not applying for or just bad grant writing. Israeli Arabs do benefit from the taxes collected, and while they may disagree on how those taxes are spent, they do have representation in the Knesset, Israel's parliament.
48. Actually, wars started by Arabs in other countries limited border access between countries. As a part of cutting down on attacks, free travel ends up being less than free- borders are checked. War is rough. Don't start wars and not expect bad results.
49. Repeat.
50. Repeat.
51. Repeat along with the trenches theme.
52. Palestinians on the other hand, kill journalists who don't parrot everything they are told.
Journalists learn if they (a) want their lives, and (b) want to have access again, that they will parrot whatever the Palestinians tell them. Israel does suffer the bad press when an idiot reporter places himself in danger in the middle of a war zone.
53. Here, Barghouti shifts from Israeli Arabs inside Israel proper to territories- he's vague about when he's switching focus so we have to pay attention. This is a repeat with some of the exact same text as before, when I mentioned that Israel has actually diverted terrorist funds into the schools. The schools that teach eradication of Israel.
54. Palestinians disrupt burial rites- or did the shooting at Abbas during his paying his respects to Arafat not really count as a disruption? I believe I mentioned Palestinians committing terror in synagogues, and could also bring up the destruction Palestinians do to sites like Joseph's Tomb- http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=31203
Agentes et consentientes pari poena plectentur - acting and consenting parties are liable to the same punishment.
ambiguitas contra stipulatorem est - doubtful words will be construed most strongly against those who use them.
Actore non probante reus absolvitur - when the plaintiff does not prove his case, the defense is absolved.

[aberdeenwriter]

WOW

That was a LOT of work!

[Splinter]

Wowza where�s spliffD he deserves at LEAST one SD award for that if for nothing else then just the sheer amount of time given up to write that!

[Abu Bakr]

Originally posted by vmarks:
Marwan Barghouti presented these charges in the course of defending himself while he was on trial for murder, a trial where he was convicted of all charges and is currently serving 5 life sentences. If he is ever released, it will be due to a prisoner exchange, but the fact of his guilt remains.

But ultimately he was only convicted for causing the deaths of five people, as there was insufficient evidence connecting him to the other 21.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/1473585.stm

and because it is likely you won't trust the BBC I refer you to the Jewish Virtual Library.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...utimurder.html

Originally posted by vmarks:
The principle in law here is known as falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus - false in one, false in all- meaning if testimony of a witness on a material issue is willfully false and given with an intention to to deceive, the jury may disregard all the witness' testimony.

And here is a good link for you: http://www.ipu.org/hr-e/174/report.htm

Then I also refer you to the zig zags post seen here since Barghouti stayed passive the whole time and only challenged the courts jurisdiction

I'll get back to the rest of your propaganda later.

[ebuddy]

originally posted by Abu Bakr; I'll get back to the rest of your propaganda later.

Start with the map! Start with the map! I'm also genuinely curious; show me Muslim clerics calling for peaceful co-existence with Israelis. Show me where Palestinian leadership is not talking about the elimination of Israelis, but the peaceful coexistence among them. This is critical. Does the Palestinian want peaceful coexistence with the Israeli or the elimination of the Israeli?

Also, I gotta tell ya, this is the weakest "duck and weave" I've ever seen posted by you Abu Bakr;

It's not a celebration or worship of death because it has nothing to do with death. A martyr goes directly to the gardens of Heaven. The person never dies.

uhhh, I'm not buyin'.

[Abu Bakr]

The "points" vmarks raised regarding point 1:

• No massacre in Jenin
• falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus
• No massacre in Deir Yassin and Lydda
• Sharon(Israel) not responsible for the massacres in Sabra and Shatilla

1. Lets begin to take a look at what a massacre is defined as.

Massacre according to M-W means:

Main Entry: 1mas�sa�cre
Pronunciation: 'ma-si-k&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French
1 : the act or an instance of killing a number of usually helpless or unresisting human beings under circumstances of atrocity or cruelty
2 : a cruel or wanton murder
3 : a wholesale slaughter of animals
4 : an act of complete destruction <the author's massacre of traditional federalist presuppositions -- R. G. McCloskey

The legal definitions on the other hand mean this:

Genocide:

For the purpose of this Statute, "genocide" means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:


(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.


and

Crimes against Humanity:

1. For the purpose of this Statute, "crime against humanity" means any of the following acts when committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population, with knowledge of the attack:


(a) Murder;

(b) Extermination;

(c) Enslavement;

(d) Deportation or forcible transfer of population;

(e) Imprisonment or other severe deprivation of physical liberty in violation of fundamental rules of international law;

(f) Torture;

(g) Rape, sexual slavery, enforced prostitution, forced pregnancy, enforced sterilization, or any other form of sexual violence of comparable gravity;

(h) Persecution against any identifiable group or collectivity on political, racial, national, ethnic, cultural, religious, gender as defined in paragraph 3, or other grounds that are universally recognized as impermissible under international law, in connection with any act referred to in this paragraph or any crime within the jurisdiction of the Court;

(i) Enforced disappearance of persons;

(j) The crime of apartheid;

(k) Other inhumane acts of a similar character intentionally causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or to mental or physical health.

2. For the purpose of paragraph 1:

(a) "Attack directed against any civilian population" means a course of conduct involving the multiple commission of acts referred to in paragraph 1 against any civilian population, pursuant to or in furtherance of a State or organizational policy to commit such attack;

(b) "Extermination" includes the intentional infliction of conditions of life, inter alia the deprivation of access to food and medicine, calculated to bring about the destruction of part of a population;

(c) "Enslavement" means the exercise of any or all of the powers attaching to the right of ownership over a person and includes the exercise of such power in the course of trafficking in persons, in particular women and children;

(d) "Deportation or forcible transfer of population" means forced displacement of the persons concerned by expulsion or other coercive acts from the area in which they are lawfully present, without grounds permitted under international law;

(e) "Torture" means the intentional infliction of severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, upon a person in the custody or under the control of the accused; except that torture shall not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to, lawful sanctions;

(f) "Forced pregnancy" means the unlawful confinement of a woman forcibly made pregnant, with the intent of affecting the ethnic composition of any population or carrying out other grave violations of international law. This definition shall not in any way be interpreted as affecting national laws relating to pregnancy;

(g) "Persecution" means the intentional and severe deprivation of fundamental rights contrary to international law by reason of the identity of the group or collectivity;

(h) "The crime of apartheid" means inhumane acts of a character similar to those referred to in paragraph 1, committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime;

(i) "Enforced disappearance of persons" means the arrest, detention or abduction of persons by, or with the authorization, support or acquiescence of, a State or a political organization, followed by a refusal to acknowledge that deprivation of freedom or to give information on the fate or whereabouts of those persons, with the intention of removing them from the protection of the law for a prolonged period of time.

3. For the purpose of this Statute, it is understood that the term "gender" refers to the two sexes, male and female, within the context of society. The term "gender" does not indicate any meaning different from the above.


The above is according to the ICC.

And to give Israel and vmarks the benefit of the doubt we'll try to use the legal definitions here.

Jenin:

Israel denied reporters access to Jenin for two weeks. To begin with Israel claimed it had only killed seven civilians but reports later on found that at least 22 civilians were dead, killed by Israeli sources.

The UN stated this in it's report:
Many credible sources have reported about atrocities committed in the camp and about the presence of prima facie evidence of war crimes. In addition, it is probable that a massacre and a crime against humanity might have been committed in the Jenin refugee camp.

They found no concrete evidence but stated that it was "probable".

The HRW said:

"no evidence to sustain claims of massacres or large-scale extrajudicial executions by the IDF"

but they also claimed:

Israeli forces committed serious violations of international humanitarian law, some amounting prima facie to war crimes".

Amnesty International agreed with HRW.

HRW also stated:

Israeli forces committed serious violations of international humanitarian law, some amounting prima facie to war crimes. Human Rights Watch found no evidence to sustain claims of massacres or large-scale extrajudicial executions by the IDF in Jenin refugee camp. However, many of the civilian deaths documented by Human Rights Watch amounted to unlawful or willful killings by the IDF. Many others could have been avoided if the IDF had taken proper precautions to protect civilian life during its military operation, as required by international humanitarian law. ... Some of the cases documented by Human Rights Watch amounted to summary executions, a clear war crime. ... Throughout the incursion, IDF soldiers used Palestinian civilians to protect them from danger, deploying them as "human shields" and forcing them to perform dangerous work ... the IDF prevented humanitarian organizations, including the International Committee of the Red Cross, from gaining access to the camp and its civilian inhabitants-despite the great humanitarian need.

Amnesty International added:

Unlawful killings violate the "right to life" laid down in Article 6 of the ICCPR. Amnesty International considers that some of these abuses of the right to life would amount to "willful killings" and "willfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health" within the meaning of Article 147 of the Fourth Geneva Convention dealing with grave breaches of the Convention; "grave breaches" of the Geneva Convention are war crimes.

Both reports were critical of the Palestinian insurgency as well but stated categorically that Israel could not justify it's actions with that.

The UN wanted to do a fact finding mission that Israel agreed to with three conditions.

1. the mission should include anti-terrorism experts
2. the UN agreed not to prosecute Israeli soldiers for potential violations of international law
3. it limit its scope exclusively to events in Jenin

The UN couldn't accept the last two conditions and hence no inquiry was made.

Full text of HRW report: http://hrw.org/reports/2002/israel3/

So in Jenin no final fact finding mission has been done. The few that have investigated say they have found no solid evidence of a massacre but have both stated that it is obvious that war crimes have been committed.

Remember that this part of the charges is under the "War crimes and crimes against humanity" chapter.

So this still stands valid.


Now to the second point.

As I pointed out in my previous post vmarks was wrong about Barghouti being convicted of all the charges. Does this mean that all of vmarks post is wrong and should be discarded? Or does that only apply to those he doesn't agree with.

Third point.

No massacres in Deir Yassin and Lydda. Let's take a closer look at that.

107 to 120 civilians were killed. The terrorist groups Lehi and Irgun were the ones committing these attacks. The population at the time amounted to some 750 people. The villagers had made a pact of non aggression with the Haganah that they respected.(Levi, Yitzhak, op. cit. pp 340-341). The Haganah stated that after their assault on the Sharafa ridge that: faithful allies of the western [Jerusalem] sector. (Kanani and Zitawi, "Deir Yassin, Monograph No. 4," 50; Collins and Lapierre, "Deir Yassin"; Milstein, Out of Crisis Comes Decision, 257; "Conquest of Deir Yassin," Yitzhak Levi (1948 Jerusalem Haganah intelligence chief) file, quoted in Levi, Nine Measures, 343.)

The villagers of Deir Yassin had always denied Arab League fighters to set up base as shown by the following:


▪ On January 11, an Arab group tried to set up a base in the village. But the inhabitants resisted this with force which lead to the miller's son getting killed. In the end the attempt was frustrated. (Chashmonai Dairy (IDF Archives) 12 January Paragraph 9;IDF Archives 2504/49/16 15; )
▪ On January 27 a force commanded by Abdel Khader El-Husseini Suleiman. Again the villagers resisted and the force had to leave. (Chashmonai Dairy (IDF Archives) 28 January Paragraph 10; IDF Archives 446/48/20 66; )
▪ On March 23 the Haganah got a report stating that 150 Iraqi and Syrian troops had entered the village and the villagers were leaving. But the troops had to leave due to determined resistance from the villagers. (Yitzhak Levi, Nine Measures, p.340)
▪ On April 7 the Haganah intelligence reported that three days earlier the elders of Deir Yassin and Ein Kareem had met Kemal Erikat, Abdel Khader's deputy who proposed to bring foreign troops into the villages. The elders of Deir Yassin rejected the proposal. (IDF Archives 4944/49/520 42; 446/48/22 60,65;500/48/29 409; 446/48/18 57; )

The criminals of Lehi and Irgun contacted the Haganah about their plans and this was the reply they got:

Why go to Deir Yassin? It is a quiet village. There is a non-aggression pact between Givat Shaul and the Mukhtar of Deir Yassin. The village is not a security problem in any way. Our problem is in the battle for the Qastel. I suggest you participate in the operations in that area. I will give you a base in Bayit Vagan, and from their you will take over Ein Kerem, which is providing Arab reinforcements to the Qastel. (Yitzak Levi, Nine Measures, p. 341)

A proposal from Lehi suggested:

liquidating them to show what happens when the IZL [Irgun] and the Lehi set out together. (Statement of Yehuda Lapidot [Irgun], file 1/10 4-K, Jabotinsky Archives, Tel Aviv, quoted in Silver, Begin: The Haunted Prophet, 90)

After the battle for Deir Yassin was over Irgun's commander Ben-Zion Cohen noted: [We] felt a desire for revenge. (Statement of Ben-Zion Cohen, file 1/10 4-K, Jabotinsky Archives)

The prisoners were then taken aboard trucks and driven through Jerusalem and paraded for the Jewish inhabitants. Men, women and children.(Jerusalem Embattled, p.57, Levin)

Photos were taken but are being kept secret in the IOF archives and even academic researchers don't have access to them.

Meir Pa'il stated that he:

started hearing shooting in the village. The fighting was over, yet there was the sound of firing of all kinds from different houses... Sporadic firing, not like you would [normally] hear when they clean a house. (Meir Pa'il's Eyewitness Account, Pa'il and Isseroff)


Eliahu Arbel arrived at the scene April 10. He was an Operations Officer B of the Haganah's Etzioni Brigade.

I saw the horrors that the fighters had created. I saw bodies of women and children, who were murdered in their houses in cold blood by gunfire, with no signs of battle and not as the result of blowing up the houses. From my experience I know well, that there is no war without killing, and that not only combatants get killed. I have seen a great deal of war, but I never saw a sight like Deir Yassin (Yediot Ahronot, 1972-02-05)

Jacques de Reynier, a representatice of the International Red Cross stated:
[One body was] a woman who must have been eight months pregnant, hit in the stomach, with powder burns on her dress indicating she'd been shot point-blank. (Jacques de Reynier, A Jerusalem un drapeau flottait sur la ligne de feu p. 74, Larry Collins & Dominique Lapierre, O Jerusalem! p. 278)

Alfred Engel stated the following:
Alfred Engel went to Deir Yassin with Jacques de Reynier, his conclusion is similar to de Reynier's.
In the houses there were dead, in all about a hundred men, women and children. It was terrible....It was clear that they (the attackers) had gone from house to house and shot the people at close range. I was a doctor in the German army for 5 years, in World War I, but I had not seen such a horrifying spectacle. (Uri Milstein, Out of Crisis came Decision, p. 279)

Irgun commander Mordechai Raanan recalled.

A young fighter [from our side] holding a Bren machine gun in his hands took up a position, ... Having seen what happened to the inhabitants of the other houses, [the residents of the house] came out to us with their hands up. There were nine people there, including a woman and a boy. The chap holding the Bren suddenly squeezed the trigger and held it. A round of shots hit the group of Arabs. While he was shooting he yelled 'This is for Yiftach!' (Yediot Ahronot, 1972-04-04)

Ben Zion-Cohen an Irgun commaner reported to the Jabotinsky archives that at some point in Deir Yassin We eliminated every Arab that came our way (Amos Perlmutter, The Life and Times of Menachem Begin, p. 216)

The Jewish Agency and the Haganah did both condemn the massacre.

After the war Deir Yassin was colonized by Israelis and named Givat Schaul Beth, today belonging to the district of Jerusalem (at the top end of Har Nof). In 1980 a settlement was built over the remaining ruins and its streets were named after the Irgun-units who participated in the battle.

I'm not going to go into detail about Lydda as I have disproven part of this point of vmarks'.

point 4

Sharon was not responsible for Sabra and Shatilla.

Sabra and Shatilla were surrounded by Israeli troops and under Israeli control. Occupying forces are required to protect civilians.Sharon invited Lebanese Phalangists who were trained and equipped by Israel to enter the camps. Sharon instructed them that the Israelis were in control of all forces in the area. After the Phalangists entered the camp the massacre continued for 36-48 hours while Israel guarded the exits and provided support for the terrorists. Israel had observation posts surrounding the camps to follow events. Israeli military commanders met with Phalangist leaders throughout the massacre to co-ordinate events. The Israeli military fired illuminating flares throughout the duration of the massacre.

Lt Avi Grabowsky reported to the Kahan commission that he saw the murder of five women and children. He reported it to his commander who responded: We know, it's not to our liking, and don't interfere".

A radio intercept was made at one point where a terrorist asked his commander(Hobeika) what to do with the women and children in the refugee camp. Hobeika responded: This is the last time you're going to ask me a question like that; you know exactly what to do. Phalangists could be heard in the background laughing. This intercept was made by Israel. Israeli troops were filmed turning refugees fleeing the massacre back into the camp.

The Phalangists often returned to the Israeli troops to get food, rest and ammunition.

The ICRC finally concluded that about 2750 people were killed in the massacre.

The Kahan inquiry stated that Ariel Sharon as Defense Minister bore "personal responsibility". And I myself highly doubt that he slept for 36-48 hours.

The Phalangist commander Hobeika was going to testify in a law suite against Sharon but was assassinated in a car bomb in Beirut before he could.

This will be my first post of many debunking vmarks blatant distortion of history and facts.

[aberdeenwriter]

When you get a chance, why not debunk Hamas' very own "Glory Record?"

http://web.archive.org/web/200108011...amas/index.htm


3. Boureen Operation: The militant Hamdan Hussein Al:najar, a member of Hamas, killed the Israeli settler Ya'coub Berey using a big rock as his weapon. The militant was shot down as a martyr after he had ambushed an Israeli patrol using the dead settler's weapon.


49. Martyr Hatem Al:muzein Operation: Despite the intensive existence of the Israeli forces, the Curfew and the military siege, a member of Al Qassam Brigades stabbed a 38-year-old Israeli settler, Sha'ya Doytch, from Kfar Yam, a settlement of Ghosh Qateif at 7:00 a.m., while he was working at his greenhouse west of Jan Oar. He was taken to Sarouka Hospital in Beir Sheiba'a, but he died one hour later.


61. The Two Martyrs, Hatem Al-muhtaseb and Ya'coub Mutaw'e Operation: It was a violent clap for Rabin when a commando group belonging to Al Qassam Brigades hijacked a bus on HI-25 west of Jerusalem at 7:30 a.m. on 1 July 1993 during the rush hour. The group was able to penetrate the security siege and reached the target bus from 100 metres from the Israeli police headquarters. However, the passengers were able to leave the bus because something wrong happened and so the group engaged in battle with the Israeli forces. Meanwhile, the militants Maher Abu Srour and Mohammed Al-hindy hijacked another car driven by an Israeli lady after the militant Othman Saleh had been injured. They bombed the car and all three were killed in addition to another Israeli soldier and lady that were on the bus. The militant Othman Saleh was taken captive although he was unconscious and kept saying "Allahu Akbar" while the Israeli forces were investigating him. A manifest was found on him with the following demands:

A. The bus must be driven to the Lebanese borders.
B. Al:sheikh Ahmed Yassin must be safely released immediately.
C. Fifty captives belonging to Hamas, 50 belonging to the other Palestinian formations such as Fateh, Al:jehad Al:Islamy and the Democratic Front, etc., must be released.
D. Al-sheikh Abdelkareem Obeid must also be released.

85. Dezenkov Street Operation: In an immediate reaction to the previous operation, the militant Saleh Abdelraheem Sawy bombed an Israeli bus at Dezenkof Street in downtown Tel Aviv on 19 October 1994. The explosion was rather violent, leaving 22 Israelis dead, 47 injured and seriously damaging many shops. Israelis were confused and shocked by this operation, causing Yitzhak Rabin to shorten his visit to London.

Just a few listed here. You can find more horrifying/delightful listings (depending on your view point) at the link.

[Taliesin]

Originally posted by Abu Bakr:
The "points" vmarks raised regarding point 1:

• No massacre in Jenin
• falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus
• No massacre in Deir Yassin and Lydda
• Sharon(Israel) not responsible for the massacres in Sabra and Shatilla

1. Lets begin to take a look at what a massacre is defined as.

Massacre according to M-W means:

Main Entry: 1mas�sa�cre
Pronunciation: 'ma-si-k&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French
1 : the act or an instance of killing a number of usually helpless or unresisting human beings under circumstances of atrocity or cruelty
2 : a cruel or wanton murder
3 : a wholesale slaughter of animals
4 : an act of complete destruction <the author's massacre of traditional federalist presuppositions -- R. G. McCloskey

The legal definitions on the other hand mean this:

Genocide:

For the purpose of this Statute, "genocide" means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:


(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.


and

Crimes against Humanity:

1. For the purpose of this Statute, "crime against humanity" means any of the following acts when committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population, with knowledge of the attack:


(a) Murder;

(b) Extermination;

(c) Enslavement;

(d) Deportation or forcible transfer of population;

(e) Imprisonment or other severe deprivation of physical liberty in violation of fundamental rules of international law;

(f) Torture;

(g) Rape, sexual slavery, enforced prostitution, forced pregnancy, enforced sterilization, or any other form of sexual violence of comparable gravity;

(h) Persecution against any identifiable group or collectivity on political, racial, national, ethnic, cultural, religious, gender as defined in paragraph 3, or other grounds that are universally recognized as impermissible under international law, in connection with any act referred to in this paragraph or any crime within the jurisdiction of the Court;

(i) Enforced disappearance of persons;

(j) The crime of apartheid;

(k) Other inhumane acts of a similar character intentionally causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or to mental or physical health.

2. For the purpose of paragraph 1:

(a) "Attack directed against any civilian population" means a course of conduct involving the multiple commission of acts referred to in paragraph 1 against any civilian population, pursuant to or in furtherance of a State or organizational policy to commit such attack;

(b) "Extermination" includes the intentional infliction of conditions of life, inter alia the deprivation of access to food and medicine, calculated to bring about the destruction of part of a population;

(c) "Enslavement" means the exercise of any or all of the powers attaching to the right of ownership over a person and includes the exercise of such power in the course of trafficking in persons, in particular women and children;

(d) "Deportation or forcible transfer of population" means forced displacement of the persons concerned by expulsion or other coercive acts from the area in which they are lawfully present, without grounds permitted under international law;

(e) "Torture" means the intentional infliction of severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, upon a person in the custody or under the control of the accused; except that torture shall not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to, lawful sanctions;

(f) "Forced pregnancy" means the unlawful confinement of a woman forcibly made pregnant, with the intent of affecting the ethnic composition of any population or carrying out other grave violations of international law. This definition shall not in any way be interpreted as affecting national laws relating to pregnancy;

(g) "Persecution" means the intentional and severe deprivation of fundamental rights contrary to international law by reason of the identity of the group or collectivity;

(h) "The crime of apartheid" means inhumane acts of a character similar to those referred to in paragraph 1, committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime;

(i) "Enforced disappearance of persons" means the arrest, detention or abduction of persons by, or with the authorization, support or acquiescence of, a State or a political organization, followed by a refusal to acknowledge that deprivation of freedom or to give information on the fate or whereabouts of those persons, with the intention of removing them from the protection of the law for a prolonged period of time.

3. For the purpose of this Statute, it is understood that the term "gender" refers to the two sexes, male and female, within the context of society. The term "gender" does not indicate any meaning different from the above.


The above is according to the ICC.

And to give Israel and vmarks the benefit of the doubt we'll try to use the legal definitions here.

Jenin:

Israel denied reporters access to Jenin for two weeks. To begin with Israel claimed it had only killed seven civilians but reports later on found that at least 22 civilians were dead, killed by Israeli sources.

The UN stated this in it's report:
Many credible sources have reported about atrocities committed in the camp and about the presence of prima facie evidence of war crimes. In addition, it is probable that a massacre and a crime against humanity might have been committed in the Jenin refugee camp.

They found no concrete evidence but stated that it was "probable".

The HRW said:

"no evidence to sustain claims of massacres or large-scale extrajudicial executions by the IDF"

but they also claimed:

Israeli forces committed serious violations of international humanitarian law, some amounting prima facie to war crimes".

Amnesty International agreed with HRW.

HRW also stated:

Israeli forces committed serious violations of international humanitarian law, some amounting prima facie to war crimes. Human Rights Watch found no evidence to sustain claims of massacres or large-scale extrajudicial executions by the IDF in Jenin refugee camp. However, many of the civilian deaths documented by Human Rights Watch amounted to unlawful or willful killings by the IDF. Many others could have been avoided if the IDF had taken proper precautions to protect civilian life during its military operation, as required by international humanitarian law. ... Some of the cases documented by Human Rights Watch amounted to summary executions, a clear war crime. ... Throughout the incursion, IDF soldiers used Palestinian civilians to protect them from danger, deploying them as "human shields" and forcing them to perform dangerous work ... the IDF prevented humanitarian organizations, including the International Committee of the Red Cross, from gaining access to the camp and its civilian inhabitants-despite the great humanitarian need.

Amnesty International added:

Unlawful killings violate the "right to life" laid down in Article 6 of the ICCPR. Amnesty International considers that some of these abuses of the right to life would amount to "willful killings" and "willfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health" within the meaning of Article 147 of the Fourth Geneva Convention dealing with grave breaches of the Convention; "grave breaches" of the Geneva Convention are war crimes.

Both reports were critical of the Palestinian insurgency as well but stated categorically that Israel could not justify it's actions with that.

The UN wanted to do a fact finding mission that Israel agreed to with three conditions.

1. the mission should include anti-terrorism experts
2. the UN agreed not to prosecute Israeli soldiers for potential violations of international law
3. it limit its scope exclusively to events in Jenin

The UN couldn't accept the last two conditions and hence no inquiry was made.

Full text of HRW report: http://hrw.org/reports/2002/israel3/

So in Jenin no final fact finding mission has been done. The few that have investigated say they have found no solid evidence of a massacre but have both stated that it is obvious that war crimes have been committed.

Remember that this part of the charges is under the "War crimes and crimes against humanity" chapter.

So this still stands valid.


Now to the second point.

As I pointed out in my previous post vmarks was wrong about Barghouti being convicted of all the charges. Does this mean that all of vmarks post is wrong and should be discarded? Or does that only apply to those he doesn't agree with.

Third point.

No massacres in Deir Yassin and Lydda. Let's take a closer look at that.

107 to 120 civilians were killed. The terrorist groups Lehi and Irgun were the ones committing these attacks. The population at the time amounted to some 750 people. The villagers had made a pact of non aggression with the Haganah that they respected.(Levi, Yitzhak, op. cit. pp 340-341). The Haganah stated that after their assault on the Sharafa ridge that: faithful allies of the western [Jerusalem] sector. (Kanani and Zitawi, "Deir Yassin, Monograph No. 4," 50; Collins and Lapierre, "Deir Yassin"; Milstein, Out of Crisis Comes Decision, 257; "Conquest of Deir Yassin," Yitzhak Levi (1948 Jerusalem Haganah intelligence chief) file, quoted in Levi, Nine Measures, 343.)

The villagers of Deir Yassin had always denied Arab League fighters to set up base as shown by the following:


▪ On January 11, an Arab group tried to set up a base in the village. But the inhabitants resisted this with force which lead to the miller's son getting killed. In the end the attempt was frustrated. (Chashmonai Dairy (IDF Archives) 12 January Paragraph 9;IDF Archives 2504/49/16 15; )
▪ On January 27 a force commanded by Abdel Khader El-Husseini Suleiman. Again the villagers resisted and the force had to leave. (Chashmonai Dairy (IDF Archives) 28 January Paragraph 10; IDF Archives 446/48/20 66; )
▪ On March 23 the Haganah got a report stating that 150 Iraqi and Syrian troops had entered the village and the villagers were leaving. But the troops had to leave due to determined resistance from the villagers. (Yitzhak Levi, Nine Measures, p.340)
▪ On April 7 the Haganah intelligence reported that three days earlier the elders of Deir Yassin and Ein Kareem had met Kemal Erikat, Abdel Khader's deputy who proposed to bring foreign troops into the villages. The elders of Deir Yassin rejected the proposal. (IDF Archives 4944/49/520 42; 446/48/22 60,65;500/48/29 409; 446/48/18 57; )

The criminals of Lehi and Irgun contacted the Haganah about their plans and this was the reply they got:

Why go to Deir Yassin? It is a quiet village. There is a non-aggression pact between Givat Shaul and the Mukhtar of Deir Yassin. The village is not a security problem in any way. Our problem is in the battle for the Qastel. I suggest you participate in the operations in that area. I will give you a base in Bayit Vagan, and from their you will take over Ein Kerem, which is providing Arab reinforcements to the Qastel. (Yitzak Levi, Nine Measures, p. 341)

A proposal from Lehi suggested:

liquidating them to show what happens when the IZL [Irgun] and the Lehi set out together. (Statement of Yehuda Lapidot [Irgun], file 1/10 4-K, Jabotinsky Archives, Tel Aviv, quoted in Silver, Begin: The Haunted Prophet, 90)

After the battle for Deir Yassin was over Irgun's commander Ben-Zion Cohen noted: [We] felt a desire for revenge. (Statement of Ben-Zion Cohen, file 1/10 4-K, Jabotinsky Archives)

The prisoners were then taken aboard trucks and driven through Jerusalem and paraded for the Jewish inhabitants. Men, women and children.(Jerusalem Embattled, p.57, Levin)

Photos were taken but are being kept secret in the IOF archives and even academic researchers don't have access to them.

Meir Pa'il stated that he:

started hearing shooting in the village. The fighting was over, yet there was the sound of firing of all kinds from different houses... Sporadic firing, not like you would [normally] hear when they clean a house. (Meir Pa'il's Eyewitness Account, Pa'il and Isseroff)


Eliahu Arbel arrived at the scene April 10. He was an Operations Officer B of the Haganah's Etzioni Brigade.

I saw the horrors that the fighters had created. I saw bodies of women and children, who were murdered in their houses in cold blood by gunfire, with no signs of battle and not as the result of blowing up the houses. From my experience I know well, that there is no war without killing, and that not only combatants get killed. I have seen a great deal of war, but I never saw a sight like Deir Yassin (Yediot Ahronot, 1972-02-05)

Jacques de Reynier, a representatice of the International Red Cross stated:
[One body was] a woman who must have been eight months pregnant, hit in the stomach, with powder burns on her dress indicating she'd been shot point-blank. (Jacques de Reynier, A Jerusalem un drapeau flottait sur la ligne de feu p. 74, Larry Collins & Dominique Lapierre, O Jerusalem! p. 278)

Alfred Engel stated the following:
Alfred Engel went to Deir Yassin with Jacques de Reynier, his conclusion is similar to de Reynier's.
In the houses there were dead, in all about a hundred men, women and children. It was terrible....It was clear that they (the attackers) had gone from house to house and shot the people at close range. I was a doctor in the German army for 5 years, in World War I, but I had not seen such a horrifying spectacle. (Uri Milstein, Out of Crisis came Decision, p. 279)

Irgun commander Mordechai Raanan recalled.

A young fighter [from our side] holding a Bren machine gun in his hands took up a position, ... Having seen what happened to the inhabitants of the other houses, [the residents of the house] came out to us with their hands up. There were nine people there, including a woman and a boy. The chap holding the Bren suddenly squeezed the trigger and held it. A round of shots hit the group of Arabs. While he was shooting he yelled 'This is for Yiftach!' (Yediot Ahronot, 1972-04-04)

Ben Zion-Cohen an Irgun commaner reported to the Jabotinsky archives that at some point in Deir Yassin We eliminated every Arab that came our way (Amos Perlmutter, The Life and Times of Menachem Begin, p. 216)

The Jewish Agency and the Haganah did both condemn the massacre.

After the war Deir Yassin was colonized by Israelis and named Givat Schaul Beth, today belonging to the district of Jerusalem (at the top end of Har Nof). In 1980 a settlement was built over the remaining ruins and its streets were named after the Irgun-units who participated in the battle.

I'm not going to go into detail about Lydda as I have disproven part of this point of vmarks'.

point 4

Sharon was not responsible for Sabra and Shatilla.

Sabra and Shatilla were surrounded by Israeli troops and under Israeli control. Occupying forces are required to protect civilians.Sharon invited Lebanese Phalangists who were trained and equipped by Israel to enter the camps. Sharon instructed them that the Israelis were in control of all forces in the area. After the Phalangists entered the camp the massacre continued for 36-48 hours while Israel guarded the exits and provided support for the terrorists. Israel had observation posts surrounding the camps to follow events. Israeli military commanders met with Phalangist leaders throughout the massacre to co-ordinate events. The Israeli military fired illuminating flares throughout the duration of the massacre.

Lt Avi Grabowsky reported to the Kahan commission that he saw the murder of five women and children. He reported it to his commander who responded: We know, it's not to our liking, and don't interfere".

A radio intercept was made at one point where a terrorist asked his commander(Hobeika) what to do with the women and children in the refugee camp. Hobeika responded: This is the last time you're going to ask me a question like that; you know exactly what to do. Phalangists could be heard in the background laughing. This intercept was made by Israel. Israeli troops were filmed turning refugees fleeing the massacre back into the camp.

The Phalangists often returned to the Israeli troops to get food, rest and ammunition.

The ICRC finally concluded that about 2750 people were killed in the massacre.

The Kahan inquiry stated that Ariel Sharon as Defense Minister bore "personal responsibility". And I myself highly doubt that he slept for 36-48 hours.

The Phalangist commander Hobeika was going to testify in a law suite against Sharon but was assassinated in a car bomb in Beirut before he could.

This will be my first post of many debunking vmarks blatant distortion of history and facts.

*smackdown*

Taliesin

[Abu Bakr]

Charge 2

vmarks points:

• Don't start wars and expect to come out without casualities.
• Obligatory claim of anti-semitism
• Obligatory snipe at the UN

Lets take a look at what point two actually stated.

2. Between 1948 and 1949, the State of Israel killed at least 13,000 Palestinians. During the June 1967 war, the State of Israel killed, although official figures have never been released, at least 15,000 Palestinians, Egyptians, Jordanians and Syrians.

Are his points even remotely relevant to the charge? Not at all but it makes the puppets jump up and down out of excitement.

But still, lets give him the benefit of doubt and address his points in a short and precise manner.

1. Charges of war crimes relate to civilians. But it seems that vmarks thinks killing 28.000 arabs is ok. It isn't. Civilians are protected persons during wars that the fighting parties should do everything they can to defend.

2. Completely irrelevant to the charge and is nothing but a typical Zionist diversion when they can't address the point at hand.

3. Lets take a look at what the mandate was.
UNEF I � the first Untied Nations peacekeeping force � was established by the first emergency special session of the General Assembly which was held from 1 to 10 November 1956. The mandate of the Force was to secure and supervise the cessation of hostilities, including the withdrawal of the armed forces of France, Israel and the United Kingdom from Egyptian territory and, after the withdrawal, to serve as a buffer between the Egyptian and Israeli forces and to provide impartial supervision of the ceasefire. UNEF was withdrawn in May-June 1967, at Egypt's request.

They were a supervising force. Not meant to fight a war for either side but to monitor the progress of the ceasefire. This is something Israeli Zionists often forget. And they would probably have wanted the 3378 UN soldiers to have fought Egypt alongside Israel.

But as you see that wasn't their role. Their role was to secure and supervise the end of hostilities. Nothing else. If either side wanted them gone they had no role there anymore.

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/dpko/co_mission/unefi.htm

So much for that "point" of vmarks'

Charge 3

vmarks point:

• That Abu Mazen said something in the Wall Street journal about the refugees.

What did the charge state?

3. In Lebanon, the State of Israel killed over 29,500 Palestinians and Lebanese civilians, 40% were children. During various invasions, the State of Israel forcibly evicted more than 100,000 Palestinian and Lebanese civilians.

OK, vmarks point is almost relevant.

He doesn't address the point of the 29.500 Palestinian and Lebanese civilians dead. Of them 11.000 were children. That doesn't mean enough for vmarks to address the point.

But lets go on to the refugee problem. There is not one single report from the radio monitoring stations that support the claim that the Arab nations had a role in this. And there are no official documents from those nations to support that claim. Yes, there probably was at points that the Arab nations forced Palestinians to emigrate but not in the large numbers that we see today.

How else could Israel go from having a population with about 70% Arab population to about 20% today? That is just inside Israel. Lets ignore what happened in Palestine for the moment.

But no Arab nation forcibly evicted any Lebanese during that war.

Charge 4

vmarks point:

• 4. Barghouti decries the death of children under the age of 16. Don't train children to execute attacks by wearing bomb belts at checkpoints (when they should be in school) or by using them as shields. Don't turn children into combatants.
  Terrorism against civilians is the ultimate form of collective punishment. Every Israeli, regardless of his or her support for or opposition to governmental policy is targeted for death just for being Israelis or Jews. Yet those who support Palestinian terrorism complain most loudly when a home used by a terrorist is destroyed as an economic deterrent against those who harbor terrorists. - Dershowitz, Case for Israel, p167

Relevant to the charge or just some more Zionist sentimental BS? You decide:

4. Between December 1987 and September 1993, the State of Israel killed over 1,300 Palestinian civilians, including over a quarter under the age of 16, wounded more than 100,000, and demolished 2,089 homes. Between 1993 until the end of 1999, the State of Israel has killed 492 Palestinian civilians. Between 1993 and the end of 1999, the State of Israel has demolished approximately 1,000 Palestinian homes, leaving more than 5,000 Palestinians homeless.

I don't see the relevance of his claim nor does he try to refute it. He actually supports this charge.

Charge 5

vmarks point:

• inflated numbers
• True figure 617 non-combatants killed by Israel vs 471 non-combatants killed by Palestine

First we need to take into account that these numbers are from from an Israeli source like the claim that only 7 non-combatants were killed in Jenin. True figure in Jenin was that at least 22 non-combatants had been killed. Just reminding you to take claims like that with the reservation that Israel has something to gain from decreasing the numbers just like we Palestinians have something to gain from inflating the numbers.

So lets say that these numbers are correct just for the sake of argument.

What does that tell us? It tries to tell us that although the Palestinians have been able to deliberately murder 471 non-combatants Israel has just by accident killed 617. Wait. Doesn't that sound a bit weird to you?

The one who only does the killing by "accident" is still able to kill more innocents than the one who actually targets civilians?

And there is one more thing that is worth remembering. In this we are talking about two completely different things. On the Palestinian perpetrator list we have individual murderers and terrorist organisations not sponsored by the state. On the Israeli perpetrator list we have state-sponsored, trained and equipped murderers.

So again, vmarks made Barghouti's point for him.

I'll let this do for now, but hopefully I'll have the time to rip apart vmarks next five utter distortion of facts and history later tonight.

[ebuddy]

And there is one more thing that is worth remembering. In this we are talking about two completely different things. On the Palestinian perpetrator list we have individual murderers and terrorist organisations not sponsored by the state.

I know I'm on Bakr's ignore list so please take up the mantle on this one. This is utter BS, consistent with Bakr's numerous other blunders. There are so many speeches and actions and funding and information that refute this claim it's just not even sensible for Bakr to remain in this numbed mindset. This is the same guy that says encouraging martyrdom is not encouraging death because the person doesn't actually die, they go straight to paradise. So...by this same reasoning, it would seem he could say that the PLO hasn't sponsored any of this because they're calling for martrydom, not death! Give me a friggin' break on this feeble ducking and weaving. It's sickening. Tell him not to even bother offering arguments against the other 5 points, he hasn't even yet addressed the ones he claims he has.

On the Israeli perpetrator list we have state-sponsored, trained and equipped military designed with the express purpose of eliminating the suicide bomber, the thug, the thug-leaders, and all of the thugs' funding, plans, and actions.

Fixed, and while we're at it; he's calling them murderers. Actually, they aren't murderers. This would suggest the people are actually dieing at the hands of the Israeli army when we know in fact thanx to Abu Bakr, these folks never really die-they go straight to paradise.

[Abu Bakr]

Next five charges:

Charge 6:

vmarks point:

• OK to target military leaders of the enemy.
• fewer victims than collective punishment
• Allowed to kill enemy combatant that hasn't surrendered.

1. Yes, it is OK to target the military leaders of the enemy.

2. Collective punishment is illegal under international laws so comparing assassinations to it just shows what standard Israeli uses. But lets take a better look at this.

No charges are put forth of the victims crimes. And often it is the political leaders that are killed(Yassin and others abroad). Choosing assassination also shows that Israel isn't sure it has a case solid enough to charge them with anything. So there is no evidence that someone is a terrorist or leader of terrorism except that he might agree with their ideology. Ideologies aren't forbidden in most countries.

And lets take a closer look at the method of assassination. Is dropping a 500kg bomb on an apartment building where a "supposed" leader of the insurgency is acceptable? Probably in the Zionist eyes until the enemy has the means to return the "favour". Is it impossible for the IOF to use snipers? The biggest problem here is the method used and not the assassination itself. Even if the assassination policy is dubious at best. It takes away any means for the accused to defend himself. The basic right most democratic and free nations view as a basic human right. The murder of a Palestinian(IIRC) in Norway proves the faults with using this way of thinking. There the Mossad killed an innocent man because they thought he was someone else. That is an unacceptable mistake that most nations would be punished for.


Charge 7.

vmarks point

• repeat of point 5
• terrorists use ambulances for transport
• Israelis treat people at the checkpoints and redirect money to Palestinian schols.

1.
5. Since the end of September 2000, the State of Israel and its army and citizens have killed 1,639 Palestinians, including 336 children.

7. Since the end of September 2000, the State of Israel has killed more than 550 Palestinians through shelling and bombardments of civilian and public infrastructure, homes, schools and other places. The State of Israel has caused death and injury to more Palestinians at checkpoints and due to prevention of medical access or restrictions of movement.

No repeat. One talks about the total death rate, the other talks about specific instances of deaths.

2. That has happened yes. But the IOF has done that as well. And this point has nothing to do with ambulance. So it's irrelevant to this point.

3. They are required to treat people at checkpoints. It's nothing to shout "Hurrah!" over. It's a common fact that several people have died at checkpoints while waiting to get let through. It's also a common fact that the restrictions on movement inside Palestine has caused several soon to be mothers and infants death due to them not being allowed to go through the checkpoints. Israel also has closed town thereby hindering aid to get through on several instances in Gaza which has resulted in the loss of lives.

Charge 8

vmarks points:

• repeat of 5

5. Since the end of September 2000, the State of Israel and its army and citizens have killed 1,639 Palestinians, including 336 children.

8. Since the end of September 2000, the State of Israel has severely injured, maimed and wounded at least 20,000 Palestinians, leaving more than 2,000 Palestinians permanently disabled. In that same period, the State of Israel demolished more than 985 Palestinian homes.

No repeat. One talks about death rate and the other talks about injuries and destruction of homes.

I take it Israel doesn't teach reading comprehension in school?

Charge 9:

vmarks points:

• repeat of 7
• lists terrorist acts committed by Palestinians

7. Since the end of September 2000, the State of Israel has killed more than 550 Palestinians through shelling and bombardments of civilian and public infrastructure, homes, schools and other places. The State of Israel has caused death and injury to more Palestinians at checkpoints and due to prevention of medical access or restrictions of movement.

9. Since the end of September 2000, the State of Israel has launched military attacks on Palestinian civilians. These attacks include shootings, shelling and bombings in their homes, schools, universities, hospitals, field clinics, and workplaces. The State of Israel targeted clearly marked ambulances and paramedics, journalists, and human rights defenders. The State of Israel has used heavy weaponry and ammunition against Palestinians, including bombs, mortar shells, tank shells, air-to-ground and ground-to-ground missiles fired from attack helicopters and F-16 warplanes, naval warships, tanks and armored personnel carriers. The State of Israel is also responsible for the death of Palestinians, who have been shot and killed by Israeli snipers, shooting high-velocity live ammunitions at civilians in civilian areas. In this period, the State of Israel has killed and injured a disproportionate number of women and children, clearly-marked medical personnel, human rights defenders and journalists.


No repeat. Who's sounding like a broken record?

7 talks about specific deaths and restriction of movement. This one talks about attacks on infrastructure and protected persons like ambulance drivers and journalists.

And listing terrorist attacks is no way to defend yourself against charges. I could list just as many but I won't since I'm not interested in some sentimental death match. Seems like vmarks is though.

Charge 10

vmarks points:

• war is brutal and ugly(greatest point ever )
• The Palestinians are worse

I'm not sure what to say. His argumentation is just so convincing.

But one thing is for sure. He didn't even try to refute this point so it still stands like every other point so far.