[eyadams]

<rant>
I felt like playing a little "No One Lives Forever 2" this afternoon. I have the box, the manual, and disk #2. But no disk #1, which of course is needed to play the game. I could order a replacement from MacPlay for a small fee, if I had the old one. But I don't. So I'm stuck either trying to pirate a copy of the first disk (not too likely, since I'm completely helpless when it comes to that particular kind of crime), or I'm going to have to buy a second copy.

It sucks.
</rant>

[The iMac Man]

No offense, but... you might consider taking better care of your property, and not losing things.

But, I understand it's easier to blame it on someone else...

/my rant

Anyway, you could have made a disk image of the CD, when you had it, for backup purposes.

The first thing I do with my games is make a copy of the CD. I mean, blank CDs cost, what, 50�? And, it takes less than 10 minutes to copy the CD. That way, I leave the original in it's case, and use the copy for my playing/backup purposes.

Games that I play currently, I use the disk image to play from.

If you get/have Toast, doing this is very easy. Simply make a disk image (which will be a ".toast" file), then make it "Read Only" and lock the file. That works for most/all games.

I then use a little piece of freeware, called ToastMount, to quickly and easily mount the disk image.

http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/21376




Oh, and I also hate it when you have to insert the CD to play the game... but not because I lose CDs.

I hate it because companies only do it to (try to) stop pirating.... which, of course, doesn't work at all. All it does is annoy the PAYING customers who actually bought the game and now have to be hassled by keeping the disc nearby.

I can't even remember the last time a game actually accessed the CD for data while playing. Most games, you can eject the CD after launching, and it has no effect on the game.

Again, they only do it for piracy reasons, which is just plain stupid.

[Kyros]

You can also use Disk Copy, which comes with OSX if I am not mistaken, to make an image. I even have a fully installed Starcraft Brood War on my iPod along with the disk image for it. This way I can put Starcraft on any mac and run it within about 10 minutes, no cd required. It helps when you are trying to do a lan game with friends, etc.

[The iMac Man]

Originally posted by Kyros:
You can also use Disk Copy, which comes with OSX if I am not mistaken, to make an image.

That is correct, however, Toast seems to make images that are more compatible with more games.

If you do have to use DiscCopy, make sure to select the "Master CD/DVD" option... I think that's what it's called... Master Somethingorother

[Bwa]

Requiring the CD-ROM is why I've all but quit buying boxed games, both Mac and PC. Shareware only now. I generally play games on a laptop and don't have the desire to carry a lot of CDs around with me. On my desktop PC, I usually have other CDs in the drive. If I want to take a break and fiddle with a game, I have to break my workflow.

On my iBook even at my desk when I have the CD, it's just another annoyance to get the CD out, put it in the drive, and then listen to the god awful spinning up/down of the disc.

It's interesting this post was here; I came to the forums tonight explicitly to post a rant about requiring the CD-ROM...and here this was.

[Randman]

This has been addressed many a time. You can use Disk Utility or Toast to make a disc copy and mount that.
It doesn't work as well for DVDs and some newer CDs but it's still a good way when you want to take a game or three on the road with you.

[juanvaldes]

not the same but I hate the fact I got three great games recently (RT3, UT2K4, RON) but each requires the CD to be in the drive. This is enough of a hurdle to stop me from playing the game, I dont' want to think about CD's and **** I just want to launch the game like all my other apps.

At least macsoft is cool when it comes to bad CD's.

[IamBob]

And don't you love it when the drive spins down and the game freezes until the CD spins up again?

[macaddict0001]

I know this sucks @$$ this is why i have stopped playing/buying computer video games. console only for me anyway.

[The iMac Man]

Originally posted by macaddict0001:
I know this sucks @$$ this is why i have stopped playing/buying computer video games. console only for me anyway.

Jeez, it's not THAT big of a deal.... I think some people are over-reacting a bit.

For the games you play currently, just make a disc image!

[Turnpike]

Disc images are a workaround, and an imperfect one... good to try nonetheless, if you have hard drive space to blow on it.

The thing I don't like is that most games don't use the CD anyway (and with good cause... it's a major bottleneck). It is purely an anti-piracy measure. A poor one. Mostly, it is just a hassle to legit owners of the game.

I think there should be another option: register a copy of the game and link it to a certain computer (or multiple computers, if the license allows)... the computer can then voluntarily call in to a central server and give, say, a MAC address and a CD-Key. If they pass the test, the game runs. If not, or the check isn't run, it asks for a CD.

Certainly this will only help people with an Internet connection live when they want to play, and certainly the system could be broken by crackers or hackers or whatever the term would be... but no more so than asking for a CD, and at least it would be nice for some of us.


I have had some CDs not be recognized when I was using an image (and I tried using toast, disk utility, and various options within each)... I think it needs to spoof something else (like which drive it is in or something)... is there a tool for doing this? I think Daemon Tools for PC exists for this purpose, but I have no experience with it myself.


Bottom line, it is a hassle and only stops the must juvenile of pirates. It may not be a huge deal, but it is an unnecessary and ineffective annoyance.

[Bwa]

I'm glad to hear this annoys others, and it's not just me. The disk image sounds like an OK solution (though my iBook has only a 30 GB disk...having two copies of the same 700 MB data is irritating at best...).

If anyone can provide directions on how to create a disk image w/ Disk Utility on 10.3 for Warcraft III, I'd appreciate it. Disk Utility gives me a 'Illegal argument' error. Buying a third party utility just to make disk images is not going to happen in with my wallet, so I'm not too interested in Toast [$100?].

Thanks.

[The iMac Man]

Originally posted by Turnpike:
I think there should be another option: register a copy of the game and link it to a certain computer (or multiple computers, if the license allows)... the computer can then voluntarily call in to a central server and give, say, a MAC address and a CD-Key. If they pass the test, the game runs. If not, or the check isn't run, it asks for a CD.

Nice idea. Or, maybe even easier, after registering the game, you get a file, a CD crack of sorts, which bypasses the CD.

Originally posted by Turnpike:
I have had some CDs not be recognized when I was using an image (and I tried using toast, disk utility, and various options within each)... I think it needs to spoof something else (like which drive it is in or something)... is there a tool for doing this? I think Daemon Tools for PC exists for this purpose, but I have no experience with it myself.

After making your disc image (best with Toast), go to the file, and Get Info on it. Change all the permissions to Read Only, and then Lock the file. That does the trick most of the time.

I also have found that using the freeware, ToastMount, you tend to get better luck, and it mounts much quicker than using Toast.

And, I agree with you that the CD is only a cheap anti-piracy tactic, as I have stated above.

[Leonard]

Yeah, I have to say it annoys me to. Not enough to stop playing the games, but enough to not switch the game I'm playing unless I'm gonna play for more than an hour. I especially hate having to put in the UT2004 DVD, I don't know if it's my original disk that's bad, or if it's got a scratch in a bad place, but that disk takes minutes to mount and doesn't always mount the first time.

[UnixMac]

I hate it cause it's a pain to keep switching out CD's and digging them out of your CD case or what ever you use to store them. Some games like RTCW, you just click on the icon and bang! you're playing... on a whim..

Yes, I'm lazy. Sorry if anyone is offended.

[macaddict0001]

Its not lazy its efficient.

[JHromadka]

I prefer to keep a copy on my drive also. It takes less power from my PowerBook to use the hard disk than to keep spinning up the CD all the time.

[Turnpike]

does anyone have better/worse luck using hdiutil in the commandline? I use this to put anything I want to pack up for somebody in a dmg, but I don't know that I've ever tried using it on a game CD that won't image well.

I think DU just uses hdiutil, but I'm not sure, and I really have no way of knowing what kind of options DU uses that should/shouldn't be used with hdiutil...

might be something to look into. I'll try changing permissions and locking the image, thanks.

[UnixMac]

Originally posted by Turnpike:
does anyone have better/worse luck using hdiutil in the commandline? I use this to put anything I want to pack up for somebody in a dmg, but I don't know that I've ever tried using it on a game CD that won't image well.

I think DU just uses hdiutil, but I'm not sure, and I really have no way of knowing what kind of options DU uses that should/shouldn't be used with hdiutil...

might be something to look into. I'll try changing permissions and locking the image, thanks.

yup DU is using the unix commands for all of what it does, including image.

we need an industrial Toast like program to fool the programs.

not worth the trouble if you ask me. What may work better is to all call or email the software companies and demand disk installations for apps, and no CD rom required.

[macaddict0001]

You know what would be interesting would be if company's just included one little flash drive with read only data that would be required to play the game, harder to copy than a game cd which isn't protected from copying, just from playing the game without it.

[The iMac Man]

Originally posted by macaddict0001:
You know what would be interesting would be if company's just included one little flash drive with read only data that would be required to play the game, harder to copy than a game cd which isn't protected from copying, just from playing the game without it.

Actually, I believe the Logic audio software did that before Apple bought it... heck, it may even still do it, I don't know.

But, it would be pretty costly to include those with games.

I can understand why Logic does it... it's a $1,000 program!

[ReggieX]

Originally posted by macaddict0001:
I know this sucks @$$ this is why i have stopped playing/buying computer video games. console only for me anyway.

Yeah, consoles never require keeping the disc in the drive.

[Forte]

Originally posted by ReggieX:
Yeah, consoles never require keeping the disc in the drive.

I think what you mean to say is: "Consoles don't have the cheek to require keeping the disc in the drive in addition to eating up anything from 1GB or more of your hard drive space and never actually accessing the disc.".

Consoles access the game disc for data - computer games generally do not, and instead they install a ton of stuff to your HDD and access that. Consoles don't normally even have HDDs. See the difference?

[spiky_dog]

Originally posted by macaddict0001:
You know what would be interesting would be if company's just included one little flash drive with read only data that would be required to play the game, harder to copy than a game cd which isn't protected from copying, just from playing the game without it.

it's called a "dongle" and it's been done, not only by logic. i've worked (in the computer sense) with a teleradiology package that had a serial dongle that counted down one "life" each time it was unplugged. you started with 5 lives... luckily calling tech support and using zterm at their instruction could get your "lives" reset if you convinced them that you were a legit user.

[UnixMac]

Originally posted by spiky_dog:
it's called a "dongle" and it's been done, not only by logic. i've worked (in the computer sense) with a teleradiology package that had a serial dongle that counted down one "life" each time it was unplugged. you started with 5 lives... luckily calling tech support and using zterm at their instruction could get your "lives" reset if you convinced them that you were a legit user.

Sounds too expensive for a $49 game though.

I would be just as happy if (like Castle Wolf and Q3) you could just load the whole thing onto your HD, type in the Serial/Key and get down to gaming...

[macaddict0001]

Originally posted by spiky_dog:
it's called a "dongle" and it's been done, not only by logic. i've worked (in the computer sense) with a teleradiology package that had a serial dongle that counted down one "life" each time it was unplugged. you started with 5 lives... luckily calling tech support and using zterm at their instruction could get your "lives" reset if you convinced them that you were a legit user.

flash memory is dirt cheap these days and it wouldn't have "lives" it would just be required to be in a usb port while playing the game. You wouldn't even need more than 256 k of memory to house some sort of proprietary code and a $20 7 port usb hub for 7 games seems like a better deal than replacing my ibook's cd drive every year.

[Angus_D]

Originally posted by UnixMac:
yup DU is using the unix commands for all of what it does, including image.

No, it isn't. It's using two frameworks, DiskImages.framework and DiscRecording.framework, both of which were developed by Apple and are specific to Mac OS X.

[UnixMac]

Originally posted by Angus_D:
No, it isn't. It's using two frameworks, DiskImages.framework and DiscRecording.framework, both of which were developed by Apple and are specific to Mac OS X.

Not disputing what you say, because I'm going off what I was told by a "product specialist" at Apple... but you mean to tell me Apple isn't using the a GUI overlay to the unix commands built into OS X to do items like that? What else is that being done that way, and why?

[IamBob]

One dongle per distributor wouldn't bother me but if it was per-game, no way.

If you could buy a USB dongle from InsertDistributor for $20 that acts like a no-CD crack for all their games...would you buy it?

And at the top of the page (as I write) is an ad for a 128MB flash drive for $19.99 (+free shipping) from Crucial...coincidence?

[The iMac Man]

Originally posted by IamBob:
If you could buy a USB dongle from InsertDistributor for $20 that acts like a no-CD crack for all their games...would you buy it?

No.

I think my idea of allowing us to download a CD-crack after registering is the most economical and feasible.

[Turnpike]

If InsertDistributor was Blizzard, yes. Anyone else, no.

Perhaps you could do as iMac Man suggests, and download a no-CD crack. the No-CD crack you'd run would be something that couldn't be broken (easily... everything can be broken, obviously...)... you know, do something like make the crack tied to the computer, say the same way iTunes songs are tied to a certain computer... or make it specific to a certain MAC address (although if a person changed NICs or something... meh).

Would it be possible to do something like that and limit it to certain computers, or would it just make it that much easier for certain elements of the user base to distribute illegal, fully-functioning pirated copies?

[Angus_D]

Originally posted by UnixMac:
Not disputing what you say, because I'm going off what I was told by a "product specialist" at Apple... but you mean to tell me Apple isn't using the a GUI overlay to the unix commands built into OS X to do items like that? What else is that being done that way, and why?

Because there aren't any UNIX commands built into OS X that do that, other than the commandline tools drutil and hdiutil and things like that, which are just wrappers around the aforementioned frameworks which are also utilised by the GUI apps.

[IamBob]

If you can download a no-CD patch then you could copy it and give it to all your friends along with the game....so what was the point in requiring the CD check in the first place?

And some people have more than one computer. With a CD check you can't play on more than one at a time but at least you can have games installed on more than one, ready to run. Lock it to a single machine and I wouldn't buy it, even if it had a no-CD patch.

A dongle would be harder to make copies of and they could probably make a couple bucks in the process. And maybe the dongle gives you a second seat, so you can play on one machine with the CD and on another with the dongle...that would be a nice bonus...

Who knows, someone decided that CD checks are it...maybe it'll change but somehow I doubt it.

[The iMac Man]

First of all, the CD crack would be something you get when registering, so it would somehow be linked to your copy of the game/serial number, or your computer.

Second of all, I don't know for sure, but is it legal to install the game on multiple computers in the first place?

[UnixMac]

Originally posted by The iMac Man:
First of all, the CD crack would be something you get when registering, so it would somehow be linked to your copy of the game/serial number, or your computer.

Second of all, I don't know for sure, but is it legal to install the game on multiple computers in the first place?

[rant]
Frankly, whether it's legal or not... I think that if you own two machines and you buy software... You should be able to use it on both machines (so long as it's not at the same time)... It is ridiculous to expect me to buy two copies of Adobe Photoshop CS for $649 a piece when clearly I'm only going to be using it one copy at a time (and Adobe doesn't).

I can see where in the case of OS X, they want you to pay an additional fee (of say $30) to install on an additional machine, but for God's sake, as long as it the same INDIVIDUAL customer, who cares how many computers he uses it on! It's a freaking racket! [/rant]

[omar96]

Originally posted by The iMac Man:
Nice idea. Or, maybe even easier, after registering the game, you get a file, a CD crack of sorts, which bypasses the CD.

One word: Steam.

Valve did the same thing, and then added on the ability to download games you bought with your CC through their software. More people get Half-Life 2 this way than they do in the stores, and to authenticate it you just have to log in to your Steam account. Alot of Windows gamers have bitched constantly about it, though, comparing it to Windows product activation in later MS products, like Windows XP, but I didn't think it's that big a deal. And if you buy your product via Steam, you can back it up to a DVD and even play it without a disk in the drive. I wouldn't recommend it to dial-up users though...

[Forte]

Originally posted by omar96:
One word: Steam.

Valve did the same thing, and then added on the ability to download games you bought with your CC through their software. More people get Half-Life 2 this way than they do in the stores, and to authenticate it you just have to log in to your Steam account. Alot of Windows gamers have bitched constantly about it, though, comparing it to Windows product activation in later MS products, like Windows XP, but I didn't think it's that big a deal. And if you buy your product via Steam, you can back it up to a DVD and even play it without a disk in the drive. I wouldn't recommend it to dial-up users though...

Except Steam was down for a long time last week, and people couldn't even play games they'd purchased in their respective offline modes. That smacks of absolute uselessness, to me. And then there was the issue of them removing accounts due to people supposedly pirating Half-Life 2, and apparently excluding some innocent users in the process. I certainly wouldn't buy a CD, where essentially what you're paying $50 for is permission (which may or may not be granted) to play the game indicated on it's label.

[IamBob]

My thoughts exactly, Forte. Well said.

[omar96]

Originally posted by Forte:
Except Steam was down for a long time last week, and people couldn't even play games they'd purchased in their respective offline modes. That smacks of absolute uselessness, to me. And then there was the issue of them removing accounts due to people supposedly pirating Half-Life 2, and apparently excluding some innocent users in the process. I certainly wouldn't buy a CD, where essentially what you're paying $50 for is permission (which may or may not be granted) to play the game indicated on it's label.

Right. Steam does every time the game is run what Turnpike was suggesting be done once, but doing it once probably isn't enough to satisfy publishers.

That said, permission to play the game indicated on its label...that's all you ever pay for, if you read an EULA. You are licensed to use it as the developer sees fit, not as the user sees fit. If the user were able to do what they wanted, then anti-piracy measures wouldn't have a leg to stand on in the first place.

[Forte]

but doing it once probably isn't enough to satisfy publishers.

Doing it multiple times is more than enough to inconvenience and lose them paying customers, though.

That said, permission to play the game indicated on its label...that's all you ever pay for, if you read an EULA. You are licensed to use it as the developer sees fit, not as the user sees fit.

This is true, but at least with games that don't need authenticating via the internet every time you want to play the offline single player game, you can play it on your machine at will, instead of having to ask to do so every single time. Since when were other people in charge of when and where I'm allowed to play what I've already paid for a license for, and why should they be allowed access to my personal computer and the data on it over the issue of whether I should be allowed to play a video game in my leisure time? With schemes such as the one Half-Life 2 has, you pay $50 for a CD, and a chance that you're allowed a license to play the game. You can't even play your game *offline* if Steam goes down, and if/when the service should cease to exist, your money is wasted, and you can no longer play that game, because the company won't be around to say you can. How about if they falsely accuse you of pirating games, and kill your Steam account? You lose the right to play all of the games you've bought from them. Too bad - they get to keep your money, though. And what if someone's gaming machine isn't connected to the internet, for whatever reason? The CD they just purchased becomes an unusable coaster. ;P

Furthermore, on top of all that, they don't make any guarantees that Steam won't mess up your machine (and they also mention that they can't guarantee downloads made through it will be virus-free, too O_o;; ), so you're taking a risk by using it, since you can't hold them responsible if said network or apps relating to it hose your computer.

Eventually, legitimate customers will get tired of having to jump through hoops to play what they've paid their hard-earned cash for. It can't come soon enough.

As you can guess, I personally find it abhorrent that any sort of app - not only a game - should want to phone home. I don't think schemes like this will work, in the long-run.

[slapdash]

Didn't there used to be a way to take a CD (like my Warcraft III CD) and make a disc image that was only a few MB in size? I have images of all my Blizzard games on my Mac but it's really chewed up a lot of space and I'd like to trim that back down again.

I know there is a way, and that I've done it before, because at one point I had made small disc images for Broodwar, Diablo II and Warcraft III.

Anyone have a memory of this or know how to do it? I'll buy ya a beer for your troubles

[ReggieX]

No, not if you're copying everything that's on the CD. However some games, I'm looking at you, Unreal and Deus Ex, are only looking for 1 specific file that's on the CD itself. I made my own "no-CD" crack for those two games myself after I found out what file they wanted. You can make compressed Disk Images, they'll be a little smaller.