[vmpaul]

Originally posted by Ois�n:

To what extent it is necessary for any given person to buy four bottles of water every day, or to drive in their own car to work every day is quite a different issue.

That's the WHOLE point. It isn't a necessity to buy bottled water in this country. It IS more of a necessity to buy gas to get to your place of employment. That is true of the majority of employed workers at this point, right now.

Doesn't mean it should stay that way. It's just the reality of the situation, now.

[RAILhead]

Originally posted by Ois�n:
How does carpooling and public transportation not rely on petrol?

And painting with a somewhat wider brush, petrol/gas/oil/diesel/paraffine/petroleum/etc. (refined oil products) are all necessities of the society that we've built for ourselves, not mere luxuries.

I didn't say public transportation didn't. I said gas isn't a necessity for life. You're telling me, that if you had no other way to get to work to provide for you and your family outside of a personal vehicle, you just wouldn't work? You wouldn't get a bus pass? You wouldn't take a subway? You wouldn't ride a bike? Skateboard? Rollerblades? Walk? If you didn't have a personal vehicle, your life would end? Your reality would crash down and everything as you know it would cease to exist?

No, gas is NOT a necessity.

Maury

[RAILhead]

Originally posted by vmpaul:
Be my guest. Sleep with it under your pillow if you want.

How naive can you be. You take the majority of people on the highways right now and have them 'ride a bike' or rely on our underdeveloped and underfunded 'mass transit' and we'll see how fast this economy grinds to a halt. Maybe we can furlough everybody in the north during winter when we take their cars away? Wait, maybe they can just ride their bikes What's a little snow, huh?

Any suggestion that we're ready, right now, to abandon the current transportation infrastructure and maintain the same economic output and production is idiotic.

Whether you like it or not gas is a NECESSITY. Unless you're willing to throttle down the economy drastically while we develop alternatives. is that what you're saying?


Big difference between spending $1.25 on a bottle of water and needing to fill your gas tank every week to get to your job. I would think that would be obvious. I guess not.

No, friend, you miss the point. Food is a necessity -- without it, you'd die. Water is a necessity -- without it, you'd die. You wouldn't die if you couldn't fill up your gas tank.

PERIOD.

You're rationalizing gas being a necessity by saying you "need" it to get to work, but there ARE other ways. Like I always say on this board, it's all about perspective and how serious you are about taking care of a situation. If someone is so money tight that they can't afford to fill up -- but they have to get to work, what do they do? Just call in "out-of-gas"?

Maury

[Oisín]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
I didn't say public transportation didn't. I said gas isn't a necessity for life.

No, gas is NOT a necessity.

A necessity for life and a necessity for our current society are two quite different things. I agree (of course) that petrol is not a necessity for life itself, there's no doubt of that. But if you suddenly, click, just like that, took away all petrol from our society, it would collapse faster than you can say hippotomonstrosesquippedaliophobia.

You're telling me, that if you had no other way to get to work to provide for you and your family outside of a personal vehicle, you just wouldn't work? You wouldn't get a bus pass? You wouldn't take a subway? You wouldn't ride a bike? Skateboard? Rollerblades? Walk? If you didn't have a personal vehicle, your life would end? Your reality would crash down and everything as you know it would cease to exist?

Of course not. If you read my post above (well, one of them), you'll see I said that I don't have neither a car nor a license - and don't want either of them either.

I'm not denying that having your own personal car to drive to work (etc.) with, is a luxury rather than a necessity (for nearly everybody, with a small amount of exceptions), and that the petrol you need for that car is also a luxury rather than a necessity. What I am denying is that the same is true for society as a whole.

(And for the safety of both myself and anyone in my immediate vicinity, I would never skateboard to work!)

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by Ois�n:
Yeah, the subway here is electric too (though not buses, and we have no trams). But still - what's used to make the electricity that runs it? (Okay, in our case it's actually coal, not oil, but various other major electricity-suckers in this city are fuelled by electricity made in oil refinement)

Our current provincial government is more centrist than our last right-leaning government, and there is a push towards green, but obviously, we are still heavily dependent on fossil fuels (especially coal).

[vmpaul]

Originally posted by RAILhead:
No, friend, you miss the point. Food is a necessity -- without it, you'd die. Water is a necessity -- without it, you'd die. You wouldn't die if you couldn't fill up your gas tank.

PERIOD.

You're rationalizing gas being a necessity by saying you "need" it to get to work, but there ARE other ways. Like I always say on this board, it's all about perspective and how serious you are about taking care of a situation. If someone is so money tight that they can't afford to fill up -- but they have to get to work, what do they do? Just call in "out-of-gas"?

Maury

Well, I have no doubt that taking people out of their cars, right now, and making them 'ride a bike' to work would lead to massive cultural and economic impacts. I know in my region (Bay Area) that forcing people to ride their bikes or to rely on an underdeveloped mass transit would lead to massive unemployment and an economic slowdown of the likes we've never seen. That's the technology and the defense industry right there. I'm pretty sure LA would be hit the same, as would the Central Valley which is a major source of this country's agriculture. Can't carry many baskets of veggies in a bicycle. Although training wheels would help.

So yeah, if you don't care about massive economic depression and the subsequent drop in our standard of living. Or care about the resulting loss of life, loss of employment, etc., resulting from such a dramatic switch. If you didn't care about any of that, then I would agree with you.

So, which necessity is less valuable to you Maury? The necessity of maintaining this country's economic and strategic viability? Or the necessity of providing food and welfare for your fellow americans?

[bradoesch]

Originally posted by Wiskedjak:
It's that feeling that is actually part of the problem. That false sense of security makes SUV drivers (on average) less cautious than someone driving something like a Honda Civic.

When I go from my motorcycle to a car or truck my driving changes a lot. First off all I slow down, but I'm not near as aware or cautious in a car. You have lots of that "safe feeling" in a vehicle and aren't so worried. If you're smart and want to live, you're really, really attentive when riding a bike.