[tkmd]

Ever since I heard that 10.4 was going to have Quartz extreme 2d turned off - I started to question if this upgrade really worth the $135? Consider that initial reports from those who have gotten 10.4 installed already state that thier system is as fast as it was in panther - perhaps a little faster. I was looking for more performance than that (after al,l 200+ features and or optimizations, right?) .


Additonally, I really dont care about dashboard, automator, dictionary or RSS in Safari hype. I just feel that its apple copying MS now - increasing OS bloat.
Are Eug and I the only ones who considered QE2D the major compelling force for Tiger? Is anyone else feel the same about the bloat?

[nbn22385]

I may reqiure it in the future but for now I am just holding off on Tiger.

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by tkmd

Ever since I heard that 10.4 was going to have Quartz extreme 2d turned off - I started to question if this upgrade really worth the $135? Consider that initial reports from those who have gotten 10.4 installed already state that thier system is as fast as it was in panther - perhaps a little faster. I was looking for more performance than that (after al,l 200+ features and or optimizations, right?) .


Additonally, I really dont care about dashboard, automator, dictionary or RSS in Safari hype. I just feel that its apple copying MS now - increasing OS bloat.
Are Eug and I the only ones who considered QE2D the major compelling force for Tiger? Is anyone else feel the same about the bloat?

Bloat. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[sideus]

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?t=218345

[tkmd]

Originally Posted by sideus

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?t=218345

Nice catch (didnt see that one!) but are you going to purchase tiger ?

[CatOne]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett

Bloat. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Anybody want a peanut?

[mchladek]

I'll be passing unless my University offers it for $15 like they did for Panther, but that will probably be several months.

Many of the features in Tiger would be nice to have, but none of them are something I can't live without.

[Millennium]

I need to wait for the Cisco VPN client to be released, and then for the department at my workplace to finish their distribution/setup scripts. I'll probably upgrade after that, though.

Q2dE being turned off is a bit of a disappointment, but a minor one at most. There are enough other new features to make this one a must-have.

[MrForgetable]

i'm not sure i need all of these new features though..

[chris v]

I'm holding off for just a little while. 10.3 is working so well for me that I'm just not in a hurry. I especially need to watch and wait for results with Logic. I'm in the middle of mixing 12 songs, and I need to get this project done, so I'm at least wating a couple of weeks-- probably until 10.4.1 is in the retail box.

Then again, I just might succumb and install it on the Powerbook as a test machine in a week or so. No real need to dive in at 6 pm on Friday, though.

[Catfish_Man]

Bloat, n. : Features I don't use

[deboerjo]

I'm definitly skipping it. Nifty, but most definitly not worth the upgrade price.

I wish Apple would space out their release more and add more features per release. Saves network admins a whole lotta upgrade headaches, and users a whole lotta cash.

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by deboerjo

I wish Apple would space out their release more and add more features per release. Saves network admins a whole lotta upgrade headaches, and users a whole lotta cash.

You don't think 18 months between releases is spaced out enough?

[Superchicken]

With X.1 I bought it a few months after release, X.1 I got free a bit late after it came out (I think I heard about it in MacWorld the mag this was pre-MacNN days) then I got X.2 with my iBook August before last, then I got Panther maybe a month and a bit after it's release, and I'm getting Tiger the day it ships... I'm getting faster with the updates... each time I realize just how much I'll love the new features. I think for X.5 I might have to get a developer membership just for the beta

[deboerjo]

Originally Posted by Person Man

You don't think 18 months between releases is spaced out enough?

Well, considering the acute lack of compelling features and Quartz2d being disabled, apparently it's not. And 18 months hasn't been Apple's norm, 12 is OS X's average thus far. I'd rather see 2-year releases and really get something polished & complete (no last minute disabling of major features), and with enough new features to be worth the upgrade.

Now I just know somebody's going to protest "But there's 200+ new features!" so I'm going to say right now; Apple's "200 feature" claim is pure marketing ********. Ever actually looked at that list? Half of it is not new features of the OS itself but rather separate products that are bundled with it, and most of those updates are available separately for 10.3 and/or 10.2 users. The new Safari, Quicktime 7, iChatAV, you don't need Tiger for any of that, so it's hardly a feature of Tiger, is it? Most of the other half is different ways a single feature is integrated into the OS, so the exact same feature is repeated again and again and again. Spotlight is listed 20 times. Tiger has essentially just 3 noteworthy new features; Dashboard, Spotlight, and Automator. Automator is the only thing remotely interesting to me.

I'd gladly use it if somebody gave it to me, but there's no way I'd pay for Tiger.

[JHromadka]

Originally Posted by tkmd

Ever since I heard that 10.4 was going to have Quartz extreme 2d turned off - I started to question if this upgrade really worth the $135?

Why are you paying an extra $6? And yes, I think it will be worth it.

[winterlandia]

Is it worth it? Spotlight, Dashboard, and Automator (I don't really use iChat) plus the noticable speed increase on my old G4 make it just barely worth it. It is actually pretty amazing that every system since 10.0 has been a noticable interface speed jump for my machine. Tiger seems to be the first system that actually taxes the processor at all and I think only because it's still indexing my files in spotlight.

[Brass]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but...

Originally Posted by deboerjo

I'd rather see 2-year releases

Apple has publicly stated that they are transitioning to a longer period between major releases, and that 2 years will be the expected norm.

Half of it is not new features of the OS itself but rather separate products that are bundled with it, and most of those updates are available separately for 10.3 and/or 10.2 users. The new Safari, Quicktime 7, iChatAV, you don't need Tiger for any of that, so it's hardly a feature of Tiger, is it?

This is plain wrong. The new version of Safari requires Tiger. The new version of iChat requires Tiger. Don't know about the others.

Tiger has essentially just 3 noteworthy new features; Dashboard, Spotlight, and Automator. Automator is the only thing remotely interesting to me.

Many of the new features in Tiger are not of any immediate or obvious use to your average user. It is only when developers start taking advantage of some of the new API features included in Tiger that new applications will start to be available on Tiger only that include features that were either not possible on Panther at all, or else would have required many many more months (or years) for the developer(s) to implement on Panther (and are now trivial to implement on Tiger).

Eg, CoreImage and CoreData frameworks. Many users will be amazed that now much of what PhotoShop does can be easily integrated into any tiny little application using CoreData in Tiger. Personally, I'm planning to upgrade one of my applications to use CoreData so that it will not only simplify my own code, but will dramatically increase performance for users with thousands of records, in a way that was simply not possible on Panther without me spending months integrating (or creating) some additional database layer myself.

[dru]

No one is more skeptical about Tiger than I am but I've ordered. Look, this is the last Mac OS X release for some time to come. I could see holding off until there's a point release to fix a few 'obvious' bugs but to take a pass completely? That seems a bit extreme unless you plan a new hardware purchase within a year. Perhaps if you're a dirty-poor student, someone with a G3, no DVD drive or you find Panther meets all of your needs I could see skipping. Remember, Apple's stated they are going to spread out new releases further now that Tiger's in the wild.

To guard against problems of upgrading too quickly, I'm installing Tiger on a clean internal HD and maintaining a Panther install on a secondary drive. And for pricing, look around online. Amazon, for example, has a $35 rebate and free shipping available.

(I have skipped Microsoft releases and am still making use of Win2K because I have no use for XP. Especially on 5 yr old hardware.)

[deboerjo]

Originally Posted by Brass

Apple has publicly stated that they are transitioning to a longer period between major releases, and that 2 years will be the expected norm.

Well good then

This is plain wrong. The new version of Safari requires Tiger. The new version of iChat requires Tiger. Don't know about the others.

You're right, I was wrong about Safari and iChat, I misunderstood the new updates as being equivalent to the Tiger versions, but they're just bugfixes to the Panther versions. Quicktime 7 is going to be Panther-compatible, though.

You called me on the new APIs (CoreImage, etc), I must admit I had forgotten about that. I guess I'll be upgrading to Tiger when applications come along that require it, if I can't live without said applications.

But your points bring up a major gripe I have with OS X, allow me to rant for a minute.

Why is it Apple can't keep it's APIs and tools separate from it's operating system? I can run Internet Explorer 6sp1 on Windows as far back as Win98 and NT4, why is it the latest versions of Safari require the latest versions of MacOS? More importantly, API updates like DirectX and the .NET Framework are separate updates, allowing software developers to release software that takes advantage of the latest APIs while maintaining compatibility with older OS versions, usually going back to Win98. Why is it Macintosh developers have to alienate some of their customer base in order to use the latest APIs like CoreImage? Wouldn't it behove Apple to release a CoreImage framework for Jaguar/Panther to encourage developers to use it? And as far as applications like Safari and iChat are concerned, Apple isn't making life any easier for themselves, they stick themselves with three separate codebases of Safari (for example) to maintain for bugfixes whereas they could have just one. What's the product cycle on OS X anyway? Microsoft's is 10 years for security updates. If Apple's is the same 5 years Apple's going to have a half dozen different versions of safari they're going to have to maintain. It's nuts.

</rant>

That's got me thinking, what is Apple's support cycle for old versions of MacOS, anyway? How long is Apple going to continue releasing security patches and the like for Panther?

[zacharie]

Well personally; I'm tired of paying almost every year for a new system (from 10.0 to 10.3) and its mac subscription, as well as the supplementary key to enjoy quicktime in its full version. That makes about 129+100+30 euros per year for upgrades and I'm sick of it all. This time, I don't think Tiger will suit me as it's not completely well set (if I've understood the point about quartz). If I need RSS, well I can hold on Firefox, the widgets are not that useful, it's just another eye-candy artefact from Apple in my opinion, as for spotlight and automator, I'm sure that 3rd app applications are already 'en route' (I've heard of a future desktop seach for mac from google and if you're very fond of widgets, why not choose Konfabulator?)
More over, why buying Tiger now when a 50mb upgrade could pop up in the next few weeks? If you really need it, I suggest waiting for a 10.4.5 or so in a retail box. That way, maybe the system would be tweaked in the proper way for quartz and so on...

[Randman]

I'm looking forward to Tiger but I'm leaning to just installing it on one of my Macs (PB and a mini) on Friday night, getting everything squared away with it, then using the migration assistant.

[Since EBCDIC]

Originally Posted by zacharie

Well personally; I'm tired of paying almost every year for a new system... and I'm sick of it all.

Then don't. Nobody is forcing you to vote with your money. If Tiger isn't compelling today, don't buy it. When enough developers jump on the new core technologies, when enough of the bugs existing in any new release are fixed, then join us. You can be perfectly happy with Panther for years to come. Your existing OS and apps aren't going to turn off on Friday.

And since nobody has made this point, allow me, please. Tiger is evolutionary, not revolutionary. The jumps between the Developer Preview, the Public Beta, 10.0 (Cheetah), 10.1 (Puma), 10.2 (Jaguar), and 10.3 (Panther) have been filled with ever-increasing performance and features. All the low-hanging fruit has been picked, and 10.4 (Tiger) boasts only a small increase in performance (at startup, due to a re-write of the boot script system) and features (Spotlight, Dashboard (an Apple implementation of the third-party Konfabulator), and Automator).

And that's the way it ought to be. Future releases will showcase novel applications and bug-fixes. And who can complain about that?

[BZ]

Not skipping Tiger. No way.

I always like to think of the things I will get with it and what I would pay an outside vendor for.

- Safari 2.0 - Worth $30 right there
- Mail 2 - Another $30
- Spotlight - $20 (but probably more once I start using it)
- Dashboard - $15
- System Speed - $20
- CoreImage - $20
- iChat AV - $20

So that is $155 worth of features that I can easily identify with tons of other features. I have more than one computer so a family pack makes sense and cuts the cost of that down.

BZ

[JLL]

Originally Posted by zacharie

Well personally; I'm tired of paying almost every year for a new system (from 10.0 to 10.3) and its mac subscription, as well as the supplementary key to enjoy quicktime in its full version. That makes about 129+100+30 euros per year for upgrades and I'm sick of it all.

QT 6 is three years old by now - that's $10 per year.

[typoon]

Originally Posted by BZ

Not skipping Tiger. No way.

I always like to think of the things I will get with it and what I would pay an outside vendor for.

- Safari 2.0 - Worth $30 right there
- Mail 2 - Another $30
- Spotlight - $20 (but probably more once I start using it)
- Dashboard - $15
- System Speed - $20
- CoreImage - $20
- iChat AV - $20

So that is $155 worth of features that I can easily identify with tons of other features. I have more than one computer so a family pack makes sense and cuts the cost of that down.

BZ

I'll second that. YOu also forgot all the fun things you can do with PDF's now. Save PDF's and fill out PDF forms and such WITHOUT having to spend money on Acrobat Pro. I've had it for about a week now and I must say that this is the way OS X should be. It's what Windows wants to be. Anyway I think it's worth the upgrade.

[zerostar]

Originally Posted by tkmd

Ever since I heard that 10.4 was going to have Quartz extreme 2d turned off

What is the final ruling on Quartz Extreme 2D?

Xlr8yourmac says: http://xlr8yourmac.com/archives/apr0...05.html#S19112

"By Default Tiger os x does not enable quartz ("2D") Extreme in 32MB vram Macs which includes Mac Minis, eMacs and iBook G4s. To enable quartz (2D) extreme we follow the usual path to the usual suspect the configuration.plist by the path
/System/Library/Frameworks/ApplicationServices.framework/Versions/A/ Frameworks/CoreGraphics.framework/Versions/A/Resources/Configuration.plist
then scroll down to this area...you may use BBedit the demo (TextWrangler is the free replacement for BBedit Lite.-Mike) version to open the Configuration.plist file if you do not have the full versio"

This leads me to believe Q2DE is enabled on macs with over 32MB graphics cards.

So is it on or off by default?

[Macrat]

I'll probably be holding off until 10.4.1 or .2 or something. Nothing in Tiger really excites me, except maybe for the new Preview and the built-in slideshow stuff. Which is a shame, as I was standing in line at the Apple store when Panter was released.

[hyperizer]

Originally Posted by Macrat

Nothing in Tiger really excites me, except maybe for the new Preview and the built-in slideshow stuff.

Try the GC Slideshow toolbar script from Apple to get some of that functionality in Panther.

[turtle777]

I'm sure there will be a lot passing IT on via P2P

-t

[Stradlater]

I don't really understand why people wouldn't want to upgrade; the few major features are quite good, even if people mistake them for "bloat."

Dashboard -- If you ever check weather.com, open Calculator.app, track stocks, track packages, or look things up in the yellow pages, Dashboard makes things much easier and quicker. Assign Dashboard to a button on a multi-button mouse and all the information is a non-designated click away. Meanwhile, additional widgets that you might find useful will be developed.

Spotlight -- No matter how organized you are, if you ever needed to search for something based on its content, it was probably difficult. Indexing was turned off before, by default, for a reason. Also works as a simple launcher.

Safari RSS -- People unfamiliar with RSS and RSS programs may assume they won't use RSS, but you'd be surprised how handy it is to be notified when a website you occasionally visit updates.

Meanwhile, there's a ton of tiny niceties that you'll appreciate bumping into as you explore the new OS.

However, the most important additions to OS X are those you don't see...

Originally Posted by Brass

of the new features in Tiger are not of any immediate or obvious use to your average user. It is only when developers start taking advantage of some of the new API features included in Tiger that new applications will start to be available on Tiger only that include features that were either not possible on Panther at all, or else would have required many many more months (or years) for the developer(s) to implement on Panther (and are now trivial to implement on Tiger).

Eg, CoreImage and CoreData frameworks. Many users will be amazed that now much of what PhotoShop does can be easily integrated into any tiny little application using CoreData in Tiger. Personally, I'm planning to upgrade one of my applications to use CoreData so that it will not only simplify my own code, but will dramatically increase performance for users with thousands of records, in a way that was simply not possible on Panther without me spending months integrating (or creating) some additional database layer myself.

Exactly. If you don't upgrade, you'll be left in the dust sooner or later.

[SMacTech]

Originally Posted by zerostar

What is the final ruling on Quartz Extreme 2D?

This leads me to believe Q2DE is enabled on macs with over 32MB graphics cards.

So is it on or off by default?

Being that I have 8a425, it may have changed, but on my 1.5g 12" PB it IS off by default. I turned it on, did some testing with and could not see any difference in performance in the apps I develop, or in Safari. It has a 64mb FXgo5200

[zerostar]

How do yo know if it is on without the developer tools installed?

[OreoCookie]

This thread is redundant. If you want to discuss this, use the thread below. Closing ...

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.php?t=218345