[PeterKG]

Hi!

This download is available at Versiontracker, and Apple's web site. It is not availble in Software Update. It only is for 10.4 users, but should 10.4 users install this? I'm confused as to why it is not a Software Update item. What are you other users going to do?

Thanks!

[Evinyatar]

I'm assuming this is because it's a preview release and not ready for mass usage. I'm gonna try it anyway.

[Tsilou B.]

This is no preview release. It's the real thing. Java 1.4.2 and Java 1.3.1 will still be installed and fully operational on your Mac after you have installed this update. Java 1.4.2 will stay the default, but Java applications that require Java 1.5 can request 1.5.

[petrol]

Is it safe to assume that Apple will not be making 1.5 available for Panther?

[SMacTech]

from what I understand yes, no 1.5 for Panther.

[thefamousmred]

Originally Posted by petrol

Is it safe to assume that Apple will not be making 1.5 available for Panther?

No need to assume. Read the first FAQ:

http://developer.apple.com/java/faq/

[cygsid]

well that just sucks... that Java 5.0 will not be available on earlier versions than Tiger!!!

That's just totally incomprehensible to me, and I can only hate Apple with a passion for doing this kind of things.

[ManOfSteal]

Anybody noticed a big difference with this version installed or anything?

[wtmcgee]

I'll personally wait till it's in SU before updating.

[badtz]

has anyone made this the default over 1.4.2?

are there any cons in doing this?

[Tsilou B.]

I have made it the default and haven't noticed any disadvantages. Finally, I can move back from Windows to the Mac for Java development. (I had to switch because I work on Java 1.5 apps.) However, I can't guarantee that there won't be a single applet which refuses to run with 1.5. That said, if you don't have any Java applications or applets that require 1.5, there's no need to install it. It isn't much faster, prettier or something like that compared to 1.4.2.

I also think that it "sucks" that Apple won't make Java 1.5 available for Mac OS X Panther. On the Windows side, you can use Java 1.5 even with Windows 98, an operating system that's 7 years / 84 months old and uses a totally obsolete kernel. If it was the same on the Mac, Java 1.5 should still run on Mac OS 8.5. But it doesn't even run on Panther, which is only 18 months old.

[piracy]

Originally Posted by Tsilou B.

I also think that it "sucks" that Apple won't make Java 1.5 available for Mac OS X Panther. On the Windows side, you can use Java 1.5 even with Windows 98, an operating system that's 7 years / 84 months old and uses a totally obsolete kernel. If it was the same on the Mac, Java 1.5 should still run on Mac OS 8.5. But it doesn't even run on Panther, which is only 18 months old.

I'm surprised someone who is a Java developer would say something like this.

You should know that Mac OS X is not a tier 1 platform for Sun, meaning that Sun doesn't develop the Java Runtime Environment and JDK for Mac OS X itself directly, as it does for other platforms, like Windows.

Apple has no choice but to port itself, and MUST wait for major milestones and releases to do the porting work. Additionally, it's heavily integrated with Mac OS X and a LOT changed with the kernel and core OS in Tiger. Making Java 1.5/5.0 available on Panther would be a major backporting effort requiring parallel development, QA, and testing, as well as expensive - both financially and in manhours - maintenance and upkeep. It's about priorities.

So if you want to complain to someone, complain to Sun. It's pretty amazing that Apple was able to have Java 1.5/5.0 available on the same day that Tiger shipped.

[rjudd]

I'm glad that 1.5 has made it to the Mac as we're moving over now at work. It really sucks that Apple has made this a 10.4 only install. I read somewhere that the binaries can be copied onto 10.3 and it works. This makes me think that Apple has made it 10.4 only to give users a reason to upgrade.

[jaknudsen]

Can anyone check if Acquisition is working after applying this update? I get the "Java Runtime can't load" error message, been trying both settings in the Java Preferences app. Using Tiger 8A425 (yes, I know).

[damosan]

Originally Posted by cygsid

well that just sucks... that Java 5.0 will not be available on earlier versions than Tiger!!!

That's just totally incomprehensible to me, and I can only hate Apple with a passion for doing this kind of things.

The same way applications started to only support 10.3 over the 10.2 chain? Get over it.

[piracy]

Originally Posted by rjudd

I'm glad that 1.5 has made it to the Mac as we're moving over now at work. It really sucks that Apple has made this a 10.4 only install. I read somewhere that the binaries can be copied onto 10.3 and it works. This makes me think that Apple has made it 10.4 only to give users a reason to upgrade.

That's not the only reason. Whether it "works" or not on 10.3, it's

- not supported

- not tested

- probably broken in many areas

- would cost a lot of money and time to support, since Apple has to do ALL Java testing, QA, bug remediation, etc., on Mac OS X itself, where as Sun does this for Windows

[JLL]

Originally Posted by rjudd

I'm glad that 1.5 has made it to the Mac as we're moving over now at work. It really sucks that Apple has made this a 10.4 only install. I read somewhere that the binaries can be copied onto 10.3 and it works. This makes me think that Apple has made it 10.4 only to give users a reason to upgrade.

A lot of stuff like Swing doesn't work when copied to Panther.

[Tsilou B.]

Originally Posted by piracy

I'm surprised someone who is a Java developer would say something like this.

You should know that Mac OS X is not a tier 1 platform for Sun, meaning that Sun doesn't develop the Java Runtime Environment and JDK for Mac OS X itself directly, as it does for other platforms, like Windows.

Apple has no choice but to port itself, and MUST wait for major milestones and releases to do the porting work. Additionally, it's heavily integrated with Mac OS X and a LOT changed with the kernel and core OS in Tiger. Making Java 1.5/5.0 available on Panther would be a major backporting effort requiring parallel development, QA, and testing, as well as expensive - both financially and in manhours - maintenance and upkeep. It's about priorities.

So if you want to complain to someone, complain to Sun. It's pretty amazing that Apple was able to have Java 1.5/5.0 available on the same day that Tiger shipped.

Of course you're right - I would never expect Apple to port Java 1.5 to systems older than 10.3. But you also have to keep in mind that Java 1.5 has been out for more than half a year and at the time it was released, Panther was still Apple's latest available operating system. While I understand that Apple isn't able to release Java 1.5 at the same time it becomes available for "tier 1" platforms, I think it would be fair to expect that you will at least get it some time later without having to buy a new operating system.

Look at Apple's Java mailing list, there're people who have tried to install Java 1.5 on Panther. You will notice that pretty much everything in Java 1.5 except for AWT/Swing works on Panther, too. Then look at the release notes and try to find the new stuff that has apparently required making the Swing implementation incompatible with Panther. You'll find these new features:

• Cocoa Java Plugin Public API
• javax.print Support

If one of these features could not easily be made available for Panther, Apple could simply leave it out in their Panther implementation of Java 1.5.

They have also fixed a few known issues and implemented some new features for 1.5 - but there's not one single thing that looks like it could not have been ported to Panther and even if one fix/addition would really be that much harder to implement on Panther, they could have fixed/added it for their Mac OS X Tiger implementation only. It's not like Java developers would complain: "Oh my god, showing a contextual menu over multiple JTable rows still causes the selection to be lost in Java 1.5 for Panther. It would have been better if they hadn't released 1.5 for Panther at all."

Yes, it would still have been more expensive for Apple to support Java 1.5 on Panther, too. But I really think that it should be allowed to criticize Apple for not spending the money.

BTW: I certainly have missed many of your posts, piracy, but of those I've read, this is the first time I've ever disagreed with you. (That was meant as a compliment.)

[petrol]

Can anyone tell me why exactly Sun does not consider Mac OS X a tier 1 platform?

From the Java site it looks like they only release Java for Solaris, Windows and Linux. I guess getting it to run in Windows is obviously important, and if they didn't do it for Linux, who would?

[JLL]

Originally Posted by petrol

Can anyone tell me why exactly Sun does not consider Mac OS X a tier 1 platform?

From the Java site it looks like they only release Java for Solaris, Windows and Linux. I guess getting it to run in Windows is obviously important, and if they didn't do it for Linux, who would?

Suns sell machines with Solaris and Linux, and they won't let MS touch Java.

Otherwise it's up to the OS maker (Apple, HP, IBM, *BSD) to port Java to the platform, and AFAIK Mac OS X is the most up-to-date second tier platform out there.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Tsilou B.

Look at Apple's Java mailing list, there're people who have tried to install Java 1.5 on Panther. You will notice that pretty much everything in Java 1.5 except for AWT/Swing works on Panther, too. Then look at the release notes and try to find the new stuff that has apparently required making the Swing implementation incompatible with Panther. You'll find these new features:

• Cocoa Java Plugin Public API
• javax.print Support

If one of these features could not easily be made available for Panther, Apple could simply leave it out in their Panther implementation of Java 1.5.

No, no they couldn't, particularly not in the case of the Cocoa-Java Plugin Public API. If Apple took this out in Panther, then many if not most Cocoa-Java apps would cease to work on Panther, and they could not be fixed without fundamental rewrites. This is not acceptable. This doesn't even take AWT/Swing into account; quite a few important Java apps (even on the Mac) depend on this support, and once again they couldn't be made to work with this "stripped-down Java". What you ask is tantamount to asking Apple to break Java in order to port it.

I am extremely confused that a Java developer would require this explanation.

[alphasubzero949]

Acquisition tells me to reinstall the OS. This is with the retail copy (8A428) with Java 1.5 PR1 installed.

[piracy]

Originally Posted by alphasubzero949

Acquisition tells me to reinstall the OS. This is with the retail copy (8A428) with Java 1.5 PR1 installed.

PR1?

You mean Java 1.5 Release 1? This isn't a preview release...it's a final version.

[alphasubzero949]

Originally Posted by piracy

PR1?

You mean Java 1.5 Release 1? This isn't a preview release...it's a final version.

Yeah...that's what I meant.

[Tsilou B.]

Originally Posted by Millennium

No, no they couldn't, particularly not in the case of the Cocoa-Java Plugin Public API. If Apple took this out in Panther, then many if not most Cocoa-Java apps would cease to work on Panther, and they could not be fixed without fundamental rewrites. This is not acceptable. This doesn't even take AWT/Swing into account; quite a few important Java apps (even on the Mac) depend on this support, and once again they couldn't be made to work with this "stripped-down Java". What you ask is tantamount to asking Apple to break Java in order to port it.

I am extremely confused that a Java developer would require this explanation.

I'm sorry, Millennium, but before you write things like your last sentence, please read up on Java on Mac OS X.
The Cocoa Java plugin is a new API for using the Java plugin in a Cocoa application. It has never been available before and there are certainly no Panther compatible applications that require it. That's why I included it in my list of new features.
Please read my posting again. I didn't suggest at all that Apple should remove a single feature that's currently available in Panther's Java 1.4.2 from the Java 1.5 implementation in order to make it compatible with Panther.

EDIT: Now that I've read your post again, I think it was a big misunderstanding. Is it possible that you've mistaken the "Cocoa Java plugin public API" for Apple's Java Bridge? And concerning your second argument, which totally confused me at first, maybe you thought I would propose the complete removal of AWT/Swing from Java? Of course that's not what I meant. When I wrote: "If one of these features ... Apple could simply leave it out", I wasn't referring to Swing or AWT or another integral part of Java. I'm sorry if I have been a bit unclear.