[Athens]

I know this will get me yelled at by a few...

http://www.ericblumrich.com/14.html

[Athens]

Oh another article I came across which is a interesting read...

12/11/2004

by John Chuckman : "I know of no country in which there is so little independence of mind and real freedom of discussion as in America." Alexis de Tocqueville.


The international view of Bush's election was nicely summed up by the reaction of a group of my students from China. I teach economics at university part-time, and many of my students are from China. Lest you think their judgment clouded by communist ideology, please note the many Chinese students studying in Canada come from that country's bright, hardworking business class in the so-called New Economic Zone. American visions of rabid communists in China are as uninformed as American visions of realities in most places. These are practical, sensible people.

The topic of the election came up during a break, and the genuinely puzzled looks on the students' faces were remarkable. How could America elect such an ignorant man? was asked by several. To reassure them, I explained that America, like a frightened puppy, was still clinging to the first human leg it had grabbed in the darkness.

The explanation, though accepted with some laughter, was incomplete, but only in detail and not in substance. It is certainly closer to the mark than many sad efforts in America which hold that the nation has become somehow a very different place than it was. While all human institutions change under the influence of economic growth, there is little evidence of sudden change in America, only of continued movement in long-established directions.

One of those directions is a divergence in social values between society at large and Christian fundamentalism. When societies grow, when new wealth accumulates, traditional values always come under great stress. This shows in countless ways, from the changing nature of marriage customs to the institutions by which a nation is governed. Were this not so, we would still be employed building pyramids for dead pharaohs.

America's traditionalists in religion are disturbed by the social effects of economic growth, although they do not understand the connection with economics and hold to superstitious notions of people giving themselves over to evil. Short of a new Dark Ages taking hold in America (an idea novelist Margaret Atwood toyed with in The Handmaid's Tale), these social changes are not reversible, but that fact has little impact on the intense, driving needs of those who base their lives on narrow interpretations of ancient texts they can't even read.

There is considerable evidence that fundamentalists are people who suffer from greater-than-average levels of defects like anxiety and paranoia. You only have to consider all the screaming, spewing revivalist sermons about damnation and the twisted nightmares of the Book of Revelations and parts of the Old Testament to understand the role of fear in fundamentalism. Of course, superstition itself is just fear's way of explaining the unknown.

Not all Americans are fundamentalists, not even a majority, but there are enough of them (something like 40% claim to be "re-born") to form a powerful swing group in American politics. While America was founded under the leadership of non-Christian Deists and Skeptics (the true source for the best part of America's written, although often-abused, freedoms), fundamentalism has long provided a howling background chorus.

There were two so-called Great Awakenings in early America, one in the colonial period during the 1730s and 1740s, and a second in the early Republic at the beginning of the 1800s. A broad view of history interprets the first of these as reaction to the influence of eighteenth-century Europe's new freethinking and skepticism. The second, something of an echo of the first, was fired to life by fear of new science and technology and the impact of the Industrial Revolution, to say nothing of intense dislike for foreigners with different views and Catholicism in general.

The Great Awakenings were periods of intense evangelical fervor in America, the nation being then pretty much a backwater where many people lived fairly isolated lives with attitudes inherited from Puritan forefathers. New thinking, progress, and change pretty much kept going forward in the world despite these frenetic crusades, although people in America often did not feel free to speak their minds during the worst furies.

The social and economic implications of the Great Awakenings were at odds with another of the nation's hottest interests. Americans were often described as crazed over any chance to make money, de Tocqueville, for example, observing, "I know of no country, indeed, where the love of money has taken stronger hold on the affections of men.." Making money is not a pursuit that sits well with setting the clock back, although it wasn't until the early twentieth century that Freud explained how a great a role ambivalence plays in human minds.

We are definitely in a new period of backlash against social change in America. People want the physical benefits of change and growth - television, jet travel, electronic organs, and credit cards (the complete toolkit of modern corporate evangelism) - but they also want to enjoy these with social relationships frozen in time, established before these things existed.

There would be nothing disturbing about such confused, hopeless intentions were the people involved content to follow their chosen path without trying to drag others along, but they are not. They do not build Mennonite-like communities to separate themselves from unwelcome modern influences. No, they insist on changing the country to suit themselves, and increasingly exhibit a lust to change the entire planet to the same purpose.

Some have characterized the Bush victory as marking the beginning of a third Great Awakening. I think there is some truth in this observation. America's fundamentalists want to escape the social consequences of such inevitable developments as gay marriage, abortion, and scientific research that begins to peel back the mysteries of Creation. And the events of 9/11 only reinforced long-standing suspicion and even dread of foreigners with markedly different cultures.

God Bless America is a favorite expression of Bush's, as well as, judging from their bumper stickers, the more belligerent class of truck drivers. One wonders in Bush's case whether the words represent a habit akin to saying God Bless when someone sneezes, a habit he might have acquired during his years of snorting cocaine with its well-known consequence of nasal irritation. Of course, the association of Bush and belligerent truck drivers is not coincidental. Didn't the Teamsters embrace Nixon as their man?

It is difficult for many outsiders - and that includes a substantial number of Americans - to understand the use of this totemic expression. Is God being called upon to give something He otherwise would withhold, or is he being commanded? In either case, the words resemble the prayers of the selfish and arrogant.

I think what is intended is simply the constant association of God with America, at least certain people's idea of America, those who embrace vengeance, intolerance, xenophobia, and the beauties of extreme selfishness. Cynics might describe the habit of muttering the words as an unrelenting marketing campaign to make the unholy seem holy.

Whatever the case, it does seem God has been handing America something other than blessings recently. Events from 9/11 to the black comedy of Bush's re-election after his getting the nation mired in a protracted and pointless war do require descriptions other than blessings.

But for American fundamentalists, the words affirm that a genuine man of God is in office at last, most of them being blissfully unaware that the job of President is just that, a job, not a religious ministry. Most of them also are blissfully unaware of how hard their ancestors fought for genuine religious freedom - their chief ally in the battle being the religious skeptic Jefferson. Two centuries later, America's fundamentalists are perfectly ready to do unto others what was previously done unto their ancestors, that is, to impose their beliefs, views, and attitudes on others.

The fit of fundamentalist attitudes with America's position in the sphere of world affairs is perfect, having moved in two centuries from a nation opposing a distant, arrogant imperial power to being the world's distant, arrogant imperial power. American fundamentalists' determination to judge and interfere with the private lives of others, their insistence in believing they hold the only truth - these attitudes perfectly support the interests of a smaller, far more privileged group of Americans who claim B-52s and M-16's serve as tools for democracy and enlightenment.

Bush may have spent most of his life peeing on other people, doing drugs, making money in crooked deals, and generally displaying contempt for exactly the class of people now devoted to his welfare, but to the fundamentalist mind the greater the stack of evidence for a destructive and undisciplined life, the greater is the blessing of its miraculous turnaround. It's quite a mysterious and unshakeable way of thinking.

As I said, fundamentalists do not make a majority in America, but when their numbers are combined with the interests of those now benefiting from astronomical tax cuts and military contracts, they make a winning coalition. The Republicans' firm hold on the South - the Ripley's Believe It or Not of Christianity, being the location of the most bizarre experiments in fundamentalism - is little more than a long-term backlash against civil-rights laws of the 1960s. The same folks (they like that word), when called Southern Democrats, were just as intolerant, obsessive, and xenophobic.

[undotwa]

No 'fascist' country has ever allowed vocal criticism of their government or opposition parties to meet or campaign freely. Bush's America is nothing like that.

Don't you think, whatever you think of Bush, the accusation is a little extreme?

[Millennium]

What exactly is "real freedom of discussion"? Is it where people's right to criticize your beliefs is taken away?

[Athens]

Originally Posted by undotwa

No 'fascist' country has ever allowed vocal criticism of their government or opposition parties to meet or campaign freely. Bush's America is nothing like that.

Don't you think, whatever you think of Bush, the accusation is a little extreme?

Not yet, but if I remmeber correctly a kid that made a anti american essay or drawing I cant remmber, the teacher called teh FBI, and there have been searchs of peoples homes because they where open Anti Bush. Its slowly getting there. Granted I think the video is more extreme then it really is, but I also think its not to far off.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Millennium

What exactly is "real freedom of discussion"? Is it where people's right to criticize your beliefs is taken away?

There is no "real freedom" when you have to live by the rules of other. And for a country to work there has to be rules. By that logic there is no such thing as real freedom.

[budster101]

(Post moved down)

[RAILhead]

That thing was so freaking hilarious it literally made me blow pieces of my breakfast bar all over my desk! Thanks for the time-killer, Athens!



Maury

[Troll]

Finally a Budster post I agree with [EDIT: although the slippery bugger has since moved his post]

Originally Posted by budster101

We voted everyone into office.

Unlike Hitler or Robert Mugabe ...

Originally Posted by budster101

Our new goal is to keep attacking the enemey wherever they are. They have no homeland, and they don't wear uniforms.

In fact, the enemy is invisible. You wouldn't know if one of them enemy thingies was right behind you right now. Yes, that's right, spin around, look between your legs. Be afraid and be aware. Be f-in aware. They're everywhere ... and nowhere. They have you in their sights but don't worry Uncle Sammy has your back. Uncle Sammy will kill them ... and hundreds of thousands of innocent people who really should know better than to live near "them".

Originally Posted by budster101

You have the freedom to type whatever you wish, within the rules of these forums of course, and decent on the current administration.

You vil be decent to zis Administration because even if you don't live in this US of A, you vil still obey ze rulz zat ve impose for decency.

Originally Posted by budster101

If you hate American so much, then please do go and visit Africa, China, etc. and do your good work there. You are free to move about the country, or even leave. Not so in these countries I have mentioned.

And always remember that Africa is a country.

Originally Posted by budster101

We are the light that shines on the enemies of freedom.

We are the hand that imposes freedom ... und you vil learn to like it or else.

For the record, I don't agree that the US is fascist.

[budster101]

First I'll comment on the flash demonstration in the thread:

Nice quality.
Over the top and filled with propoganda that Michael Moore would be proud of.

We voted everyone into office.
Enron was punished, as we do punish the corrupt in our society.
If we live in a Fascist Society...

I guess, those people that desectrated the American Flag were exercising their freedoms right? Could they do that in the "Nation of Islam" with their flag? Nope.

We have freedom of speech in the USA. The teacher had the right and freedom to call in the FBI because she thought this was a threat to the president. You can't threaten the president of bodily harm in words or by visual image. Not a sitting president anyway.

We do have rules. You can't drive your car on the wrong side of the road, but you do have the priveledge to drive a car in the USA. You cannot yell "FIRE" in a crowded theater, as this is not a freedom of speech.

We have defended our land from attack. An attack that diminishes the attack on Pearl Harbor.
Our new goal is to keep attacking the enemey wherever they are. They have no homeland, and they don't wear uniforms. They are terrorists, and as such are not subject to the Geneva Convention, as much as Jimmy "Peanut Brained" Carter would like them to.

You have the freedom to type whatever you wish, within the rules of these forums of course, and decent on the current administration. We have the right to rebuke your claims. This is not possible in CUBA, China, N. Korea, and other such societies. If you hate American so much, then please do go and visit Africa, China, etc. and do your good work there. You are free to move about the country, or even leave. Not so in these countries I have mentioned. You are not even free to LEAVE...

Next time you see an American Flag and think for a moment that it represents anything but Freedom, feel free to smack yourself in the forehead - hard.

Go here to get a reality check:

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.org/

These men and women died for the rights you now enjoy. Our current armed forces are dying for the right to be free from attack and the freedoms of those who cannot defend themselves. We are the light that shines on the enemies of freedom. You truely make me sick, but I respect your freedom to do so.

The liberals and their agenda to take down an administration will stop it at nothing to do so. This slander and hatred is obvious to all those who voted Bush into office. They would like you to think that the conservative religious white people voted him in, but the truth is, democrats crossed lines to vote him in. It has to be, because otherwise he would not have been elected into office. The truth is, moderate America has voted Bush into office.

If you don't like it, then stop the lies and get some sort of positive agenda, because at this point, all the democrats can do is attack like Howard Dean. It's rather pathetic, and self-destructive. If it's an act to get the "Moderate" Hillary Clinton into office in 2008, then it's kind of clever, but is back-firing. Hillary Clinton has said too much to the contrary that her own words can be used against her. She is no different from any radical far left-wing liberal. The Americn people want sincerity, not a lying, pushy, and obnoxious person to represent them.

Freedom. We have it. Show me where it does not exist in America.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by budster101

(Post moved down)

You can run but you can't hide.

[Warung]

Yup, it's all there. Like it or not.

I saw a similar comparison a year or two ago. It's funny how people, even if they have the means to access this kind of information just chose to ignore it (or, of course, slander it).

This was clear to me from the beginning. That's why I'm pretty much indifferent towards right wing propaganda and legislation.

[budster101]

The thing is, I don't care. I'm not scared, and if you knew me you would know why. I moved my post down because of your idiotic comments.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by budster101

I moved my post down because of your idiotic comments.

Well we could both play that game now couldn't we? One of us has to exercise a bit of maturity though and since I know the difference between a country and a continent, it should probably be me.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Troll

Well we could both play that game now couldn't we? One of us has to exercise a bit of maturity though and since I know the difference between a country and a continent, it should probably be me.

I dont know Budsters post was a good rebuttle and serious, and for once not canuck bashing... im going to lean towards him for the maturiity part.

[budster101]

Show me where I stated Africa was a country? Show me.

Idiot.

---

[Athens]

Originally Posted by budster101

Show me where I stated Africa was a country? Show me.

Idiot.

---

lol you kinda did call Africa a country, and I know a couple of friends that have been to China, for one Americans have no clue how much that country has progressed, its not like the old USSR was not even close any more. Hey they even have email now I would stop using China for arguments about freedom because its improving really fast there.

[budster101]

Who is reading their e-mail?

They are not free.

[bubblewrap]

Go to any islamic country and piss on a flag or Quran.
Real freedom there.

[placebo1969]

Originally Posted by Athens

Not yet, but if I remmeber correctly a kid that made a anti american essay or drawing I cant remmber, the teacher called teh FBI, and there have been searchs of peoples homes because they where open Anti Bush. Its slowly getting there. Granted I think the video is more extreme then it really is, but I also think its not to far off.

If you're talking about the same incident I'm thinking about, the kid drew something that was about the killing of the President. That is a crime and was investigated by the Secret Service and a matter of law, policy, etc. Someone is this very forum was investigated by the Secret Service for comments he made about the President.

[BoomStick]

A guy on one of the R/C forums was asking about how to build an autonamous aircraft for "classified" purposes. He kept asking specific things on certain hardware and stated the aircraft would only make a one way trip.

He hasn't posted since and was from California.

I have his ip address and his location, it's the same as those guys that got busted this week and he hasn't posted since the arrests.

I wonder if he was one of them.

[Sven G]

The sad thing about fascism, in any of its (both classic and "modern") flavours, is that it continually tends to recycle and reproduce itself, as people slowly get more and more deluded from past failed "revolutions", eventually - very sadly! - returning to requesting "strong powers" to pseudo-regulate their completely chaotic existence: i.e., anomy (or almost total absence of positive/human/interactive rules) which fatally degenerates into authoritarianism.

A quite sad tendency, especially in today's essentially retrograde society...

(Interesting movie, anyway!)

[placebo1969]

Originally Posted by Athens

Oh another article I came across which is a interesting read...

Originally Posted by Article

God Bless America is a favorite expression of Bush's, as well as, judging from their bumper stickers, the more belligerent class of truck drivers. One wonders in Bush's case whether the words represent a habit akin to saying God Bless when someone sneezes, a habit he might have acquired during his years of snorting cocaine with its well-known consequence of nasal irritation. Of course, the association of Bush and belligerent truck drivers is not coincidental. Didn't the Teamsters embrace Nixon as their man?

The comment about Bush saying, "God Bless America" has and is used by just about every politician in the U.S., Republican or Democrat. How is it different when he uses it compared to Kerry, Clinton or anyone else for that matter? (Serious question.)

[budster101]

Kerry < The pseudo religious dumbass.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by budster101

Show me where I stated Africa was a country? Show me.

I already did! Sigh - here it is again:

If you hate American (sic) so much, then please do go and visit Africa, China, etc. and do your good work there. You are free to move about the country, or even leave. Not so in these countries I have mentioned

Originally Posted by budster101

Idiot.

Among the many pearls of wisdom contained in your longest post in this thread was the following piece of advice which you seem to have forgotten:

Originally Posted by budster101

You have the freedom to type whatever you wish, within the rules of these forums of course

[Troll]

Originally Posted by Athens

I dont know Budsters post was a good rebuttle and serious, and for once not canuck bashing... im going to lean towards him for the maturiity part.

Well, mine was serious too, just snide. I'll try to make the points without the flavour:

Robert Mugabe was elected too so the fact that Bush was elected doesn't mean that he isn't a fascist.

Concentrating on security and defining scapegoats was stated as being one of the indicators of facism. When you make references to "the enemy", "them" and they are out there trying to get us, I don't think you're reinforcing your argument. You should be trying to show that America is not obsessed with security and a fake enemy. I personally don't think it is an obsession of all Americans.

Foreign nationals posting on this forum, indeed even Americans, have no duty to be "decent" towards the Administration.

My favourite pet peeve, Africa is not a country.

The majority of people on the planet, according to a recent poll, think that the US is a negative influence so the claim that it is a light shining on those who oppose freedom rings hollow.

There, nice and mature.

[nath]

Always interesting to see how modern political pundits completely ignore the powerful role that fundamentalist Christianity played in Germany's drift toward fascism.

Reminds me of Huey Long's observation that if and when fascism comes to the US, it would come wrapped in the stars and stripes. Much as our own neo-nazis always make sure to wrap themselves in the 'Union Jack'.

FWIW, I don't think America is in danger of succumbing to fascism. But you'd have to be blind to think that some of the symptoms aren't uncannily similar.

[budster101]

If you hate American (sic) so much, then please do go and visit Africa, China, etc. and do your good work there. [You are free to move about the country], or even leave. Not so in these countries I have mentioned

I was referring to the USA. You are free to move about the country... dork.
I never stated Africa was a country. I even stated in this and other threads, referring it to the "DARK CONTINENT".

Originally Posted by budster101

Yesterday, 04:11 PM in another thread (Bush & Blaire want to.... Africa)

I thought Angelina Jolie was saving the Dark Continent all by herself?

You do realize I expected you to be able to discern between a country and a continent when I mentioned the last sentence right? Do I need to state outright... Not so in these countries and continents I have mentioned.... ?

Dork.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by budster101

If you hate American (sic) so much, then please do go and visit Africa, China, etc. and do your good work there. You are free to move about the country, or even leave. Not so in these countries I have mentioned

I was referring to the USA. You are free to move about the country... dork.

You said "not so in THESE COUNTRIES" - TWO plurals. Clearly that was a reference to the countries of China and Africa where you apparently cannot move about freely. Come on, give it up. You screwed up. We forgive you.

Originally Posted by budster101

Dork.

Last reminder of the rules, dude!

[budster101]

Uhm. What? You going to get me banned for calling you a DORK?

The threat is rather silly don't you think? You are the one badgering me about a syntax error that really doesn't matter. If you wish to parse my post so it suits your idiotic remarks then fine, but read the whole post where I mention... "N. Korea, and CUBA"

And, isn't your nitpicking something you could have done in PM? Instead of the derailing of this thread?

[Troll]

Originally Posted by budster101

You are the one badgering me about a syntax error that really doesn't matter.

It matters to me. As an African, I take offence to the perpetuance by people like you of the myth that Africa is one big cess pool of tyrants. You lump China and Africa (including Namibia, Botswana, South Africa - COUNTRIES where people have just as many if not more democratic rights as you) together. How would you like it if we attributed Cuba's human rights track record to the United States just because you happen to occupy the same continent?

It matters.

[budster101]

I KNOW THAT AFRICA IS A CONTINENT. You are just a jerk with his head up his continent.
I've proven as such, but you fail to understand.

:/

Great, you live in and love Africa. You and Angelina Jolie can have it. JMHO.

[Troll]

Originally Posted by budster101

I KNOW THAT AFRICA IS A CONTINENT.

Good I'm glad we got that straight. And don't forget the second lesson that on the continent of Africa, just as on the continent of America, there are some countries ruled by tyrants and there are some ruled by governments just as validly elected and accountable as your own.

Btw, my head's about as far up my continent as yours is up your country.

[budster101]

You can call my nation a country or a continent and I will never get my head so far up it as you have because of it.

Go have some tea for christ's sake. Make it a double.
I'm going to go toss some in Lake Michigan for old time's sake...

[Troll]

Originally Posted by budster101

Go have some tea for christ's sake. Make it a double.

TT - cheers!

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally Posted by nath

FWIW, I don't think America is in danger of succumbing to fascism. But you'd have to be blind to think that some of the symptoms aren't uncannily similar.

Well there's a non-sequitur argument for you. If we snort with derision at your conclusion then we are "blind." The only way not to be "blind" is to agree with your conclusion. That's a nice little trap, but not terribly convincing.

There is no similarity whatsoever between the US and a fascist state, and the only "symptoms" are in the minds of people who have lost the ability to make a rational argument without resorting to hysterical extremes. This is nicely illustrated by the pathetic little group of protesters I see in front of the White House every morning. They have their little Bush=Hitler signs, but far from being hauled off to some dark and soundproofed basement to have their toenails removed, they are politely ignored. That's a country with freedom of speech, which includes the right to ignore irrational speech.

As for your point about waving the flag: be careful not to superimpose your British attitudes onto a foreign country. No political persuasion has any claim to the US flag. You will see it just as proudly flown by union rallies and civil rights marches as it is in any right wing assembly. There is no connotation in the US between the US flag and extremism.



Selma to Montgomery Civil Rights march, 1965.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

This is nicely illustrated by the pathetic little group of protesters I see in front of the White House every morning. They have their little Bush=Hitler signs, but far from being hauled off to some dark and soundproofed basement to have their toenails removed, they are politely ignored. That's a country with freedom of speech, which includes the right to ignore irrational speech.

Actually, I think that's half of it. The other half is illustrated by the counter-demonstrators who show up every now and then, making just as much fools of themselves as the Anybody-But-Bush crowd. Implicit in the right to speak is the right to listen or not, as one wishes, just as you described. But also implicit is the right to answer, to criticize and respond. There are quite a few people who hold up the Dixie Chicks as an example of people supposedly oppressed for holding an unpopular opinion of Bush, though the fact remains that no government -federal, state, or otherwise- took any action whatsoever against them. Whence, then, comes the oppression?

[SimpleLife]

Fascism is a state of mind, especially when a population is aware of it and decides they are powerless about it.

You can have a despot at the head of a country, but his power limited to the people immediately surrounding him. That would not be the case of a fascist state.

Is Bush a despot? A fascist? I doubt it. America is certainly noy such a country; if it were such, they'd have invaded Canada and Mexico already, and denied any violence, arguing benevolent action for "our own good".

Despots are everywhere, and in democratic countries as well. Their power goes as far as their populations allow it.

I do not see that in the U.S. as an element of concern for me.

What concerns me most, is the attitude of some individuals, some Americans, and some not, who believe that America is perfect and the example to follow. Hence, I am far more concerned by the benevolent of the "Good" will who impose change upon others because they believe it is the best thing for those "others". People are being abused with the exact same argument.

People may be happy in their cr*p, but any people should have the choice of the cr*p they prefer. Flavors of the day are personal preferences, and so it is in the political domain.

Real Freedom is not given; it is taken with a fight. And it's the Freedom they choose.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

Well there's a non-sequitur argument for you. If we snort with derision at your conclusion then we are "blind." The only way not to be "blind" is to agree with your conclusion. That's a nice little trap, but not terribly convincing.

There is no similarity whatsoever between the US and a fascist state, and the only "symptoms" are in the minds of people who have lost the ability to make a rational argument without resorting to hysterical extremes. This is nicely illustrated by the pathetic little group of protesters I see in front of the White House every morning. They have their little Bush=Hitler signs, but far from being hauled off to some dark and soundproofed basement to have their toenails removed, they are politely ignored. That's a country with freedom of speech, which includes the right to ignore irrational speech.

As for your point about waving the flag: be careful not to superimpose your British attitudes onto a foreign country. No political persuasion has any claim to the US flag. You will see it just as proudly flown by union rallies and civil rights marches as it is in any right wing assembly. There is no connotation in the US between the US flag and extremism.



Selma to Montgomery Civil Rights march, 1965.

Simey is right, the flag belongs to every US citizen. If you don't think so, just ask these guys.

[Zimphire]

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

Simey is right, the flag belongs to every US citizen. If you don't think so, just ask this guy.

Yup.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by placebo1969

If you're talking about the same incident I'm thinking about, the kid drew something that was about the killing of the President. That is a crime and was investigated by the Secret Service and a matter of law, policy, etc. Someone is this very forum was investigated by the Secret Service for comments he made about the President.

I think that is the same one yes.

[nath]

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

Well there's a non-sequitur argument for you. If we snort with derision at your conclusion then we are "blind." The only way not to be "blind" is to agree with your conclusion. That's a nice little trap, but not terribly convincing.

And what exactly is my conclusion Simey? It's right there for all to see, there's no trap. I don't think the US is in danger of succumbing to facsism, which is what the video in the OP suggested. But I do see similarities between aspects of Germany's fall and certain elements of behaviour on the part of the current US administration and it's more dyed-in-the-wool supporters, such as yourself. Some of those elements were mentioned in the funny video above.

What's really amusing though is that the only real argument you can produce against those similarities is 'look, the protestors still have their toe nails!!!!'

Nobody suggested otherwise. But then you do have a knack for ignoring any and all of your governments many 'quirks', so I didn't really expect anything else.

[nath]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

Simey is right, the flag belongs to every US citizen. If you don't think so, just ask these guys.

Right you are. Absolutely no 'connotation to extremism' there.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally Posted by nath

Right you are. Absolutely no 'connotation to extremism' there.

Exactly what I said. Everyone carries the flag, so in this country, the flag doesn't connote extremism.

Edit: I'll explain further for my fellow Americans, who may be missing what this is about. In the UK there is a connotation between carrying the flag in the street and right wing extremism. Pretty much the only political group given to marching down the street carrying the British flag are right wing neo-nazis such as the National Front or the British National Party. So when an ordinary Brit sees someone carrying a national flag in a rally down the street, the thought that flashes through his mind will be "Nazis!"

Now, if the group carrying the flag happens to be the KKK that thought is true enough. But the point is that Americans don't make the same association between carrying the flag and right wing extremism because pretty much EVERY group carries the flag when they hold a public protest. Neo-Nazis carry it, but so do civil rights marchers, mothers against the war, unions, and all the mainstream political parties. We haven't given our national flag up to right wing extremists, and thus the flag has no connotation to right wing politics. It belongs equally to the right wing, the left wing, and to everyone in the middle, and everyone thinks it is perfectly normal to carry a flag during a protest. In fact, when an American sees a bunch of US flags waving in the street the insitinctive thought that will probably go through his head won't be "Nazis!" it will probably be "used car lot."

Therefore people raised in different countries where they do have a connotation that flag waving is something that only Nazis do should be careful not to superimpose their attitudes onto a country with very different political traditions.

Originally Posted by nath

But I do see similarities between aspects of Germany's fall and certain elements of behaviour on the part of the current US administration and it's more dyed-in-the-wool supporters, such as yourself.

[Warung]

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

There is no similarity whatsoever between the US and a fascist state, and the only "symptoms" are in the minds of people who have lost the ability to make a rational argument without resorting to hysterical extremes.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/

"Frontpage" and other neocon publications are just about as fascit as it gets these days. As much as you'd like to deny it and downplay the all to evident signs of what is going on, xenophobia + nationalism=fascism.

Even the colors are remeniscent of the "Stürmer".

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally Posted by Warung

http://www.frontpagemag.com/

"Frontpage" and other neocon publications are just about as fascit as it gets these days. As much as you'd like to deny it and downplay the all to evident signs of what is going on, xenophobia + nationalism=fascism.

Even the colors are remeniscent of the "Stürmer".

As I said before:

"the only "symptoms" are in the minds of people who have lost the ability to make a rational argument without resorting to hysterical extremes."

[SimpleLife]

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

As I said before:

"the only "symptoms" are in the minds of people who have lost the ability to make a rational argument without resorting to hysterical extremes."

Do you mean that some individuals show the signs and characteristics of fascism, without making it sufficient to declare there is a significant part of the population endorsing it to be concerned about?

[nath]

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

Edit: I'll explain further for my fellow Americans, who may be missing what this is about. In the UK there is a connotation between carrying the flag in the street and right wing extremism. Pretty much the only political group given to marching down the street carrying the British flag are right wing neo-nazis such as the National Front or the British National Party. So when an ordinary Brit sees someone carrying a national flag in a rally down the street, the thought that flashes through his mind will be "Nazis!"

Now, if the group carrying the flag happens to be the KKK that thought is true enough. But the point is that Americans don't make the same association between carrying the flag and right wing extremism because pretty much EVERY group carries the flag when they hold a public protest. Neo-Nazis carry it, but so do civil rights marchers, mothers against the war, unions, and all the mainstream political parties. We haven't given our national flag up to right wing extremists, and thus the flag has no connotation to right wing politics. It belongs equally to the right wing, the left wing, and to everyone in the middle, and everyone thinks it is perfectly normal to carry a flag during a protest. In fact, when an American sees a bunch of US flags waving in the street the insitinctive thought that will probably go through his head won't be "Nazis!" it will probably be "used car lot."

Therefore people raised in different countries where they do have a connotation that flag waving is something that only Nazis do should be careful not to superimpose their attitudes onto a country with very different political traditions.

The point I made about the flag was primarily in reference to a quote by an American senator. "If fascism ever comes to America, it will come wrapped in the stars and stripes". Nothing you have said before or since devalues that statement. Of course you are free to disagree with it.

You're right that the union jack has largely been surrendered to extremism; I withdraw that comparison as it really doesn't fit.

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by nath

But I do see similarities between aspects of Germany's fall and certain elements of behaviour on the part of the current US administration and it's more dyed-in-the-wool supporters, such as yourself.

That says more about you nath, than Simey.