[Troll]

This is what you get in the iMac range for $1062.50 in France.

512K L2 cache, (at 200MHz), 64MB SDRAM, 20GB Ultra ATA drive, CD-ROM drive, ATI RAGE 128 Pro, Two FireWire ports.

They have 4 models available (fast, fast+, faster, fastest).

The US $999 model costs $1,526.96 here.

They've done it again! Down-specced the French iMac and charged the same as the US iMac. No wonder European sales are down. People are not that stupid.

They should have released this thing in LEMON flavour!

[M�lum]

Originally posted by Troll:
<STRONG>This is what you get in the iMac range for $1062.50 in France.

512K L2 cache, (at 200MHz), 64MB SDRAM, 20GB Ultra ATA drive, CD-ROM drive, ATI RAGE 128 Pro, Two FireWire ports.

They have 4 models available (fast, fast+, faster, fastest).

The US $999 model costs $1,526.96 here.

They've done it again! Down-specced the French iMac and charged the same as the US iMac. No wonder European sales are down. People are not that stupid.
</STRONG>

Yep, in Europe they offer 4 models. There must be market reasons for this. And I don't think Apple considers people stupid, so there must be some reason... for them to do it this way..unfortunately..

And that they are more expensive, give your thanks to the exchange rates first, to USA business policies next. Apple is no exception.

European sales are down? I have no figures here, but I suppose worldwide sales were down, and not just for Apple.

[Troll]

Sorry, forgot to mention that the base model is a 500MHz G3!

Yep, in Europe they offer 4 models. There must be market reasons for this. And I don't think Apple considers people stupid, so there must be some reason... for them to do it this way..unfortunately..

The marketing is simple.

"What can we do with all these old iMac parts?"
"Why don't we sell them to Europeans? They'll never know the difference."
"Cool. How 'bout we sell the old sh*t at the same price we're selling the new ones in the States?"

And that they are more expensive, give your thanks to the exchange rates first, to USA business policies next. Apple is no exception.

Exchange rates have nothing to do with it. I was comparing dollars with dollars and besides businesses hedge their currency exposure. The only good arguments for why the same spec machine should cost more is that there's VAT here and that there's an extra charge for shipping the parts to Ireland. Neither accounts for the $550 premium. As for USA business policies, I will not accept that Apple is entitled to do this just because McDo's and others do and neither should you.

The point is that the iMac is too little machine for the money now. Europeans are not going to buy it in the face of better, sexier looking machines that cost less (even if those VAIO's won't be able to run OS X in September).

Have a look at yesterday's shareholder info. European sales were significantly down. Wanna know why? 'Cos they tried to dump those old spec iMacs on Europeans after MWSF. That's why I said Europeans are not that stupid (I'm not even a European - just happen to be in France)!

[M�lum]

-exchange has an influence. Try figure out

-europe sales were low, weren't they all??? So, did they dump old stuff everywhere? Does Compaq dump stuff in Europe, are their sales down?

-It's not fare to say "let's dump ye old stuff in Europe, they don't know the difference"; because we do know the difference, but we have also much less computers pro capite and therefore basic models are more requested here, so there is a legitimate market for these models.


-If your not happy about US business policies, travel further south to Genova, this weekend they're having a G8 (will Apple ever have one?)

They offer that same iMac model here (500 MHz CD-ROM) in the US for $799- but only to education customers. The iMac 500(CD-RW) costs $899, the iMac 600 $1199, and the iMac 700 $1349.

[anguslovitt]

also the same model in australia....they call it the special which is kind of confusing because at the high end you got the special edition!!!

when they say special i think they mean like a special at the supermarket. (something on sale) i dont think it will last long because the configuration inst included in the datasheet.

[Troll]

That "basic model" could probably still compete at $799, but all I'm saying is that at $1100, it's not going to sell here.

[M�lum]

Originally posted by Troll:
<STRONG>That "basic model" could probably still compete at $799, but all I'm saying is that at $1100, it's not going to sell here.</STRONG>

Well, making a claim like this is a bit easy.

And get your figures right please:

the $799 model costs 1075 euro and with todays exchange rate: $941 and not $1100.

the $999 model costs 1290 euro, that is $1129 and not $1526.


I'll bookmark this topic and when sales figures come out in a few months, we'll meet again.
Actually no we wont, you are a troll after all.

[ 07-19-2001: Message edited by: M�lum ]

[christ]

At the UK Apple Store, the prices for the 4 imac models are:

�680, �850.21, �1020.42 and �1105.53.

These are fairly odd numbers until you note that VAT (17.5%) applies, and when you do the math that gives:

�799, �999, �1199 and �1299, round numbers that are obviously the headline prices for the imac range.

Todays exchange rate is �1 = US$1.4166, so that gives a with VAT price range of:

$1132, $1415, $1698 and $1840.

(compare with the US range of:

-N/A-, $999, $1299 and $1499)

So ... the lowest US model ($999 + any applicable sales taxes, say 10%, $1100 total) is cheaper in the US than the crappy cd/64Mb/Rage Pro is in the UK, the equivalent 'low end' CD-RW machine being $300+ more expensive, including guesstimates of taxes.

And then Apple are forced to announce that sales are soft in Europe (which I assume includes the UK).

This sucks.

Originally posted by christ:
<STRONG>At the UK Apple Store, the prices for the 4 imac models are:

�680, �850.21, �1020.42 and �1105.53.

These are fairly odd numbers until you note that VAT (17.5%) applies, and when you do the math that gives:

�799, �999, �1199 and �1299, round numbers that are obviously the headline prices for the imac range.

Todays exchange rate is �1 = US$1.4166, so that gives a with VAT price range of:

$1132, $1415, $1698 and $1840.

(compare with the US range of:

-N/A-, $999, $1299 and $1499)

So ... the lowest US model ($999 + any applicable sales taxes, say 10%, $1100 total) is cheaper in the US than the crappy cd/64Mb/Rage Pro is in the UK, the equivalent 'low end' CD-RW machine being $300+ more expensive, including guesstimates of taxes.

And then Apple are forced to announce that sales are soft in Europe (which I assume includes the UK).

This sucks.</STRONG>

The figures are higher, no doubt, but you shouldn't calculate the exchange rate including the VAT. Apple does not control VAT nor can it adjust prices to all the different VAT rates. Nobody does.

And we all know in the UK everything is more expensive.

[Troll]

Originally posted by M�lum:
<STRONG>
And get your figures right please:

the $799 model costs 1075 euro and with todays exchange rate: $941 and not $1100.

the $999 model costs 1290 euro, that is $1129 and not $1526.

[ 07-19-2001: Message edited by: M�lum ]</STRONG>

I don't want to argue with you about marketing 'cos each of us can only have opinions now on future sale, but prices are empirical and on this score you are wrong. At the Applestore France site Apple Store France(This thread is about the French iMacs):

1) the cheapest iMac is 1218.07 euro not 1075 euro(did you forget to add VAT?), or 7990.00 French Francs which is as close as dammit to $1100.

2) The model that costs $999 in the States is 1522.97 euros not 1290 euros, or 9,990 French Francs which is $1332.00 (I typed the euro price yesterday by mistake I concede, but it's still 30% more expensive here).

And don't call me a Troll

[christ]

Originally posted by &lt;mmmmmm&gt;:
<STRONG>

The figures are higher, no doubt, but you shouldn't calculate the exchange rate including the VAT. Apple does not control VAT nor can it adjust prices to all the different VAT rates. Nobody does.

And we all know in the UK everything is more expensive.</STRONG>

I quite clearly added 10% to the US price to approximate tax - the same sum could have been done taxless, and leads to a similar result. ($1204 in Uk, $999 in US)

5+ years ago there was $ - � parity in the price of Apple kit, regardless of the prevailing exchange rate, two years ago the premium had eroded significantly for buying in the UK vs the US, and now it appears to be heading back to parity. This can do nothing but hurt sales here, as the same exchange rate nonsense does not apply to PC box-shifters.

Apple does not control VAT nor can it adjust prices to all the different VAT rates. Nobody does.

Then how come the after VAT price is always 1� short of the next 100�'s wherever you go? Lets not pretend that they just take the US price, add expenses and put it on the shelves in London at those prices. It's as much about what price looks cool on a price tag.

Check out this coincidence for pricing of two base models:

Prices in US: $799, $999.
Prices in UK: �799, �999.
Prices in Fr: F7990, F9990.

[ZO]

Hey all...

Besides being really let down by the hardware presentations at MWNY I also checked out the prices here in Belgium.

They truely and honestly suck. Here VAT is 21% and yet prices are at least 2-300$ above USA prices.

BTW, When I went to configure a PowerMac G4 733, do you know how much they wanted for 128MB of Ram? 11,000Bef!!!! Thats 250$ USD!!!!!!!!!!!!! ARE THE MOTHER FVCKING CRAZY??????

I am seriously going to either wait until January with, HOPEFULLY, new G4s or I'm going to book a flight for the US, buy a Powerbook or even iBook, and come back to Europe... and I STILL will have saved money. Don't believe me? Go and see the prices of a TiBook and compare to the USA. Then see how much a flight costs... buying a TiBook in the states is still cheaper.

This is just damn loopy... and why the fvck do we get stuck with the crappiest of crappy iMacs that still have components of over 2 years ago?

This is sh!t... Apple... you are testing my patience WAY too much. Get your prices and your damn act together.

[M�lum]

Originally posted by ZO:
<STRONG>Hey all...

Besides being really let down by the hardware presentations at MWNY I also checked out the prices here in Belgium.

They truely and honestly suck. Here VAT is 21% and yet prices are at least 2-300$ above USA prices.

BTW, When I went to configure a PowerMac G4 733, do you know how much they wanted for 128MB of Ram? 11,000Bef!!!! Thats 250$ USD!!!!!!!!!!!!! ARE THE MOTHER FVCKING CRAZY??????

</STRONG>

Actually they ask 12.000 Bef, not 11,000 (US$257) This includes tax and shipping though.

In the US the price is $200 add your 21% belgium tax = US$242

difference = US$ 15, the shipping alone will cost you more than that.

When you buy an Apple product in the USA, you should ad the import tax when you cross your belgium border.... Nobody does this ofcourse, but you cannot ask Apple to smuggle it's products into Belgium......

Let's take the iBook as an example here:

iBook base model
belgium price, incl 21% tax = US$ 1619,15 (FB or BF 74990 or 1858,95 euro)
US Price + 21% Belgium tax = US$ 1571

difference= US$ 48.15

AND THEN EVEN BETTER:

iBook TOP MODEL
Belgium price, incl 21% tax = US$ 2157 (FB 99900 or 2476,46 euro)
US Price + 21% Belgium tax = US$2176,74

The Belgium model is about US$ 20 cheaper!!!!!!

I'm sure other models may have bigger price differences, but you have to ad your local tax to make a fair comparison.


And Troll, the same calculations for France please.

[ 07-19-2001: Message edited by: M�lum ]

[thjonas]

Finding out the prices in the other European countries is giving me a headache (different sales tax and currency rates).
I am sure that the prices here in Iceland are one of the highest. Before MacWorld the only store here that sells Macs was selling the 400 Mhz iMac at 1400$, the low-end iBook was at 2000$ and the 466 Mhz G4 at 2400$ (prices include 25% sales tax).
The new 500 Mhz iMac will probably cost around 1550$ so I wouldn't be surprised if nobody buys them.

[ 07-19-2001: Message edited by: thjonas ]

[Troll]

Look, if you go into a shop in Cupertino tomorrow and buy the cheapest new iMac you can find, you'll pay $999 AND get a free Lexmark printer thrown in. If you go into a shop in Brussels, London, Paris or Berlin tomorrow and try to get the same iMac without the printer, you'll need around $1,400.

There are a lot of American products for sale in Europe and they don't all cost 30% more here. According to the Big Mac Index, the Actual $:FF Exchange rate in April 2001 was $1:7.44FF. That means the $799 iMac should cost 5,900F Big Mac Index. It costs 8,000F! Can we at least agree that in real terms Europeans are paying a big premium on Apples that they don't necessarily pay on other imported products? Anyone care to compare a Dell Inspiron in US and Europe?

BTW, Apple assembles iMacs in Europe. They pay no more import duty getting the parts into Ireland than they do getting them into Cupertino and they pay less corporate tax there than in CA (Ireland is a tax haven).

[ 07-19-2001: Message edited by: Troll ]

[M�lum]

Originally posted by Troll:
<STRONG>Look, if you go into a shop in Cupertino tomorrow and buy the cheapest new iMac you can find, you'll pay $999 AND get a free Lexmark printer thrown in. If you go into a shop in Brussels, London, Paris or Berlin tomorrow and try to get the same iMac without the printer, you'll need around $1,400.

There are a lot of American products for sale in Europe and they don't all cost 30% more here. According to the Big Mac Index, the Actual $:FF Exchange rate in April 2001 was $1:7.44FF. That means the $799 iMac should cost 5,900F Big Mac Index. It costs 8,000F! Can we at least agree that in real terms Europeans are paying a big premium on Apples that they don't necessarily pay on other imported products? Anyone care to compare a Dell Inspiron in US and Europe?

BTW, Apple assembles iMacs in Europe. They pay no more import duty getting the parts into Ireland than they do getting them into Cupertino and they pay less corporate tax there than in CA (Ireland is a tax haven).

[ 07-19-2001: Message edited by: Troll ]</STRONG>

My last words on this.....
You travel to Cupertino and buy an iMac, you pay $999 , good, perfect.
Then your machine goes to Belgium, right? So you should pay the tax on top, 21% ...

In Belgium Apple has to sell it's iMacs with 21% tax, right?
It doesn't matter where they are produced, they just have to sell them with tax, in your case 21% which is a lot.

Then you can tell the FAIR difference.
On some products it will be more, on others you pay actually less, see my sample above. Which you cannot deny.

My exchange rates were the ones of todays market, so very up to date.

But you can also take the iMac you bought in Cupertino to Belgium without declaring, so you save the 21% tax.
But you cannot ask Apple to compete with this! They have to ad the tax.

Do you know what the living standard is in the US compared to Europe, or some zones of it?
Do you know how the US market compares to the European market?

These are all ingredients that make up a price.

And about other pc makers like Dell or Compaq, I have no intention to discover there prices, it's almost impossible with the amount of divers products they have in the USA and in Europe, it's almost an imposible task.
But there are a few big differences here, they are much bigger and powerfull then Apple.
They have much more competition and therefore cannot loose out and need more competetive prices.


Do you really believe Apple keeps it's prices artificially up so they sell less, loose clients etc.?

Stop reading Suske & Wiske or Bob & bobbette, that may help.

iMac 500Mhz 128/20GB in italy costs 1290.71 euro = US$ 1124.72 + tax
Same iMac in the US costs US$ 999 + tax
difference US$ 125
(ad the special offer printer if you want)

[ 07-19-2001: Message edited by: M�lum ]

[Troll]

And about other pc makers like Dell or Compaq, I have no intention to discover there prices, it's almost impossible with the amount of divers products they have in the USA and in Europe, it's almost an imposible task.
But there are a few big differences here, they are much bigger and powerfull then Apple.
They have much more competition and therefore cannot loose out and need more competetive prices.

You said it! That's the point! Apple doesn't bother making their prices competitive because they think that there's no competition for them. Get Monti on the line!

You can't compare what it costs me to get an iMac into the EU with what it costs Apple to get it into EU. They don't pay nearly the same taxes or duties that you or I do. And the US price has a whole bunch of taxes and duties built into it that don't apply here. They're in a corporate tax haven in Ireland, for example which is a saving.

Other American companies find ways pass on those savings to consumers so that they're more competitive. Apple doesn't and iMacs wind up costing a lot more here than in the States. My Que Drive, my Epson printer, my frigging Big Mac - none of these things are 30% more here than in the States.

[mikerally]

I know something for certain, the new prices for the PowerMac G4's in the UK are VERY good:

For �2,000(including TAX) you can get:

PowerMac G4 733Mhz, CDRW, 128MB RAM, Geforce2MX, 40GB HD, a pair of External Apple Digital Speakers (i.e. from the Cube), and a Apple Studio 15inch Display.

For �3,000(including TAX) you can get:

PowerMac G4 897Mhz, DVD-R, 128MB RAM, Geforce2MX, 60GB HD, a pair of External Apple Digital Speakers (i.e. from the Cube), and a Apple Studio 17inch display.

If you're a student, add a iSub to both configurations at no extra cost, and take roughly �200 off the price.

If you don't believe me, these quotes come direct from the UK Online Apple Store itself.