[sniffer]

I was browsing around on macrumors forum pages, and I found this and this threat about long uptime and how it affects the hardware. And the general opinion seems to be that it's good to have your computer on in long periods of time regularly.
I have for years thought that letting the computer "rest" (=shut down, not sleep) now and then was a good thing.. But it seems like some of these guy prefer having their system on for days regularly.. I am using X fulltime, and I have my iMac on for 5-18 hours a day, with a few intervals, and I until now thought that it was right to shut it down now and then..

� What do you think about having your iMac on for days or even weeks at times?

� Is it in theory better to have your system on in long periods of time, than have many start ups?

� Have some of you had any issues with having your new or old iMac on 24/7?

� What do you think?



[ 11-23-2001: Message edited by: sniffer ]

[Ybot]

Well I don't have an iMac, I have a G4 desktop which I purchased a little over a year ago - and I have yet to turn it off. Seriously. I set it to spin down the hard drives and that's it, so far I haven't had any problems. Why would I do this you ask? Well, I'm running a web server off it and I also read that it was okay to leave the computer on for extended periods of time.

[ac2c]

Seeing that you are running OS X and it is a nix operating system - it is better to run it all the time. All nix operating systems are based on the premise that the computer is part of a network that will be on for days, weeks, and even months without being shut down. Certain clean up operations are done by the computer daily, weekly and mothly to keep the OS files updated and working to their optimum. Usually these update and clean sessions are scheduled to be done in the early morning hours (when most buisnesses are closed or at minimum usage). OS X does the same thing and schedules it's clean up session for the early morning hours. If you turn off your computer at night, these clean up sessions don't take place. This means that files, links, strings, etc. don't get cleaned up. This means that you continue to accumalate on your hard drive and in the worst case sceneario end up with corrupted and over written files. If you really want to shut down the computer (as anyone with an iBook or TiBook does) there is a program that will do this clean up. It is called MacJanitor and is available on VersionTracker.com. This program will take care of all the clean up for OS X if you turn your computer off during the night.

As far as the hardware goes, the big objection to turning the computer on and off all the time is the electrical surge upon turn on and the thermal drop and rise in components. These should not be a problem and the computer life span between turning it off or leaving it on should not differ substantially over the life of the computer. I personally leave my computer on all the time because of the surge on turn on. Actually just a hold over from the days where equipment was not near as reliable as today.

As a recommendation you might use the power saving mode and download MacJanitor. This accomplishes the ideal in that the key power consuming components of the monitor and the hard drive will shut down when the computer is not in use, while the power supply is not takeing the surge of turning the computer on and off. That and running MacJanitor daily "just to be shure" should keep your computer and your OS in top running order.

[iKevin]

Ac2c is right...continually running is much better on any electronic device(assuming there is adequate cooling) than cold on, hot off, cold on..etc.

As a testament, my win2k system, which is use as a dsl router of sorts, hasn't been shut off for anything other than severe thunderstorms since i built it.....still running like a charm.

[vsurfer]

I wonder if there is any difference between so called "consumer" and "professional" hardware here?

I have a B&W G3 at work that also doubles as a server of sorts. It is on 24/7 for the last few years. I have not yet grooved to doing the same with my iMac at home though.

If you are at home and your modem is connected all the time, I guess you also may want to think about firewall issues, and you would also want to think about a very good UPS, if you don't have one already.

[sniffer]

Originally posted by ac2c:
<STRONG>
As far as the hardware goes, the big objection to turning the computer on and off all the time is the electrical surge upon turn on and the thermal drop and rise in components. These should not be a problem and the computer life span between turning it off or leaving it on should not differ substantially over the life of the computer. I personally leave my computer on all the time because of the surge on turn on. Actually just a hold over from the days where equipment was not near as reliable as today.
</STRONG>

The last line is very interesting, and I think that's the source of my way of thinking. I had a old pentium 200 with the cheapest components around. In a period I used a cpu fan which got its power from an external adapter and had similar shabby stuff all over it. The computer was a real mess, and therefor I didn't ever leave it on for a day, unless I where around. Hehe.. It was a bastard indeed, but fun to play with.

Also, ac2c, I wasn't aware about the built in maintenance stuff in X. That's a very interesting argument for keeping the hardware on. No doubt.

Ohh Well.. I am going to change my habits now. I'll guess the days of unstable hobby computers aka my old p200mhz is fallen these days with OS X and my iMac..

I think this threat have showed some very interesting things so far.

[sniffer]

Originally posted by vsurfer:
<STRONG>I wonder if there is any difference between so called "consumer" and "professional" hardware here?
</STRONG>
Yes, I to wonder about that. That's also why I posted this threat in the iMac section rather than the OS X general. Since I am on a "consumer" hardware.
<STRONG>
I have a B&W G3 at work that also doubles as a server of sorts. It is on 24/7 for the last few years. I have not yet grooved to doing the same with my iMac at home though.

If you are at home and your modem is connected all the time, I guess you also may want to think about firewall issues, and you would also want to think about a very good UPS, if you don't have one already.</STRONG>

Yes, UPS and firewall should have been essential for home users as it is with the pro guys.. *Hmm* But I am afraid most home users aren't aware about that..

[ 11-24-2001: Message edited by: sniffer ]

[Jerommeke]

hmm sounds interesting

but I have a few questions

as the current shipping iMac's which I have one of (early 2001, 500 Mhz) have no fan but an other system for cooling, is there really no damage to the hardware the heat can do?

the room is at a temperature of about 22�C.

and: if I will stay it on for the night, do I have to let it spin down the hard disk or not. I read it was harmfull to let your monitor go to sleep, so would it be the best to put the system on a low-CPU using screensaver with or without hard drive down spinning?

please help

[iTrey]

even though some people say it's better to leave it up fulltime because it's 'unix', that's not the reason it is better.

think about a light bulb, when does it usually burn out? as soon as you turn it on. there is the little about of extra electricity that goes through it and burns it out. same with computers. but you have millions of 'light bulbs' in 'em.

only time i turn off my computers are for hardware upgrades, heh. :-)

Originally posted by sniffer:
<STRONG>I was browsing around on macrumors forum pages, and I found this and this threat about long uptime and how it affects the hardware. And the general opinion seems to be that it's good to have your computer on in long periods of time regularly.
I have for years thought that letting the computer "rest" (=shut down, not sleep) now and then was a good thing.. But it seems like some of these guy prefer having their system on for days regularly.. I am using X fulltime, and I have my iMac on for 5-18 hours a day, with a few intervals, and I until now thought that it was right to shut it down now and then..

� What do you think about having your iMac on for days or even weeks at times?

� Is it in theory better to have your system on in long periods of time, than have many start ups?

� Have some of you had any issues with having your new or old iMac on 24/7?

� What do you think?



[ 11-23-2001: Message edited by: sniffer ]</STRONG>

Ughh. Hotmail as usual sucks and will not give me my email with the password I just registered for.

Call me a moron, but I just figured out that those little colored ports on the back of my huge CD player can be hooked to the G4 by way of one of those split-wire adapter thingys into the sound input port. Now I have free speakers. The other day I left the computer on all night playing my 1.63 GB of MP3s. Not a big deal, except the thing never would shut up, and that scared me a bit. When the G4 (DA 466) is sleeping totally, it doesn't make a single sound. Is it ok if it stays "awake" all night? Also, I hate to sleep it because I am afraid the neat pulsing lights will burn out. I am such a dick...

Ughh. Hotmail as usual sucks and will not give me my email with the password I just registered for.

Call me a moron, but I just figured out that those little colored ports on the back of my huge CD player can be hooked to the G4 by way of one of those split-wire adapter thingys into the sound input port. Now I have free speakers. The other day I left the computer on all night playing my 1.63 GB of MP3s. Not a big deal, except the thing never would shut up, and that scared me a bit. When the G4 (DA 466) is sleeping totally, it doesn't make a single sound. Is it ok if it stays "awake" all night? Also, I hate to sleep it because I am afraid the neat pulsing lights will burn out. I am such a dick...

[Quadroclops]

Taking us down this track of plugging into cd players to use their speakers... does anyone know if this is likely to damage amps or soundcards etc?
(CMH -hotmail is set up to do this: I'm sure it's so that you'll set up another 3 accounts until one works & then MSN can claim more members, attract more revenue. ... And all that fetchin & carryin through cookies to get your mail back & forth! Now why would a mac user stick with it?!!)

[vmarks]

Originally posted by Quadroclops:
<STRONG>Taking us down this track of plugging into cd players to use their speakers... does anyone know if this is likely to damage amps or soundcards etc?
(CMH -hotmail is set up to do this: I'm sure it's so that you'll set up another 3 accounts until one works & then MSN can claim more members, attract more revenue. ... And all that fetchin & carryin through cookies to get your mail back & forth! Now why would a mac user stick with it?!!)</STRONG>

be careful to not overdrive the inputs. better to have the level on the cd player low and turn the mac up higher, but not so high as to distort.

[kbbaucom]

You don't have to worry about leaving computers on all the time, or not having them sleep, etc. I leave all of my computers on 24/7, wiith all of them set to never spin down the HD. I have not had any components fail in any of them (excluding the Starmax which had dead sound due to lightning before I got it). My 6100/60av is the oldest one I currently use. It has been running 24/7 for 7 years now. The only time it has been turned off, is for moving it, or hardware updates (uppgrading to G3, adding RAM), so it's been running for about 60,000 hours.

[xyber233]

Does anyone here leave their computer on 24/7? Just wondering. I don't because my fan is too loud.

[driven]

Originally posted by xyber233:
<STRONG>Does anyone here leave their computer on 24/7? Just wondering. I don't because my fan is too loud.</STRONG>

I leave my PC on. It's a PII-450 .. it's been on since sometime in 1998.

It acts as a server. It even backs up my Macs !

I would leave the Cube on, but since I can't shut down the monitor and I don't want to kill the LCD backlighting I generally shut it down. (With the PC I can just shut off the monitor.)
(I know about the Energy Saver settings, but I can't get a good answer as to if the monitor is "really" off or not.)

[surfacto]

So, if I leave my iMac on, but let the system go to sleep mode, will OSX still run the system clean up at 3 am?

[MikeM32]

I've heard it is actually better to leave the computer on. I don't practice this on my system as I generally will shut it off at night while I'm asleep.

I'd think if your'e going to do that though you'll want to at least have your monitor set to sleep or have a screensaver set-up to avoid "screen burn". I'm not sure, but having the hard drive spin-down may be something to consider. I run my home system all day and don't spin the hard drive down. I only set my monitor to sleep.

Mike

[sniffer]

Originally posted by kbbaucom:
<STRONG>You don't have to worry about leaving computers on all the time, or not having them sleep, etc. I leave all of my computers on 24/7, wiith all of them set to never spin down the HD. I have not had any components fail in any of them (excluding the Starmax which had dead sound due to lightning before I got it). My 6100/60av is the oldest one I currently use. It has been running 24/7 for 7 years now. The only time it has been turned off, is for moving it, or hardware updates (uppgrading to G3, adding RAM), so it's been running for about 60,000 hours.</STRONG>

WoW! Impressive! If your 6100/60av were a spaceship, it would have been about in the end of the galaxy by now or something.. LoL!

[DocWest]

I leave my iMacs on 24/7. The hard drives spin down, and the monitor sleeps. I never sleep the whole system, cuz I crunch RC5 on em. They are still running great after 2 years. I give them a restart in the morning. Well they restart themselves actually. Smart little buggers they are.

[kbbaucom]

Originally posted by sniffer:
<STRONG>

WoW! Impressive! If your 6100/60av were a spaceship, it would have been about in the end of the galaxy by now or something.. LoL! </STRONG>

Well, I think it took the Voyager probes about 20 years just to leave the solar system. Maybe I should get the old Bussard Interstellar RamJet out and see how long it takes the 6100 to leave the galaxy.

(I don't really have a Bussard RamJet. Can we even make one that can collect the hydrogen necessary to power itself?)

[Quadroclops]

I have to keep this one rolling -I mean, TrixieUNCW was asking HOW to turn off her iMac... & there's this item from VMarks saying (I think) that even setting it to sleep & waking it up seems to burn out the monitor wake-up path in a chip. So: supposing the safety of a firewall & UPS, how essential is a screensaver for the life of the machine?

[ac2c]

Not really necessary with modern monitors don't really require a screen saver because of improved manufacturing. However, why wouldn't you want the fun of a good screensaver like matrix or old glory. I really hate having a computer sitting there doing nothing but displaying its desktop, no matter how good that desk top looks.

[tobster]

Is sleep considered turning it off or leaving it on? I always put my G4 tower to sleep during the night but leave my ibook on, though turning down the screen brightness. I can't sleep with the tower on.. except if i'm using it for mp3s...

Haven't shut the G4 down since I moved to os x though... will have to do that next week when my 1 GB ram arrives

tobs

[stefls]

Uuuhm, very interesting such a thread in which people show off for how long their macs keep running without shutting 'em down, but have you guys ever thought of the unnecessary use of electricity? If you are running a webserver or models or whatever on it, I understand, but I find leaving your computer running 24/7 just because you think it's a little better for the physical state quite, well, eeeh, a little silly (how do i say this diplomatically...). Now someone probably will argument that it doesn't really use a lot of energy while it's asleep: true, but it still uses something!

Why doesn't nobody seem to bother?

Greets,
Stefan

[Jerommeke]

ok

power use

power doesn't cost that much anymore

and say, if you can longer your computer life with some big time by keeping it on, why would you be so stupid to do turn it off?

[IEEE1394]

I agree with stefls, what is the point of leaving a computer running 24/7, (apart from servers etc)? It's just egocentric squandaring of resources so you can impress people with your 1337 haxx0r uptime.

"My linux box has an uptime of 42 days!"

"I'm saving the planet."

[Quadroclops]

I'm renowned for composting all my rejected drawings; wearing secondhand leather; squeezing the last drops from teabags; helping little old ladies to cross the road; generously allowing my wife to use my bathwater after I recycle the little bits of hair, navel lint & toenail clippings into modern sculpture... & I think that when you compare the ecological consequences of building a computer (let alone design, shipping, sales, support etc)- the consequences of leaving it on for 6 years balanced against repeatedly switching it off & on & then scrapping it after 2 years are something to ...rant about on a forum.

[Fyre4ce]

PAY ATTENTION! THIS IS IMPORTANT!

There has been only one fleeting message of distributed computing clients, like SETI@home. You people all brag about how your macs are on 24/7, but think about all the clock cycles that are wasted. As a conservative estimate, I'd say your machines are idle for at least 16 hours a day. Most modern macs can process a SETI work unit in 16 hours (I can, with a Pismo 400). All you who like to leave your machines on should really consider getting involved with a DC client - many scientific projects can benefit from your CPU time. And, of course, if you are running a DC client, you should join Team MacNN! Visit the team site at: http://team.macnn.com/ This should settle the on/off debate.

Power usage: Power is pretty cheap these days, and I have a low-power laptop, so it's not a concern. With regard to the enviromnental effects of power consumption: if you're running a DC client, the paltry power consumption (probably about 30 watts in my case) is WELL worth the scientific benefit. Leaving one lightbulb on in your house will eat twice the power of my Pismo, and it won't do anything to better mankind. The choice is clear: DISTRIBUTED COMPUTING CLIENTS!

[Jerommeke]

I am not bragging with my uptime

damn

[Sam I Am]

Originally posted by Fyre4ce:
<STRONG>PAY ATTENTION! THIS IS IMPORTANT!

There has been only one fleeting message of distributed computing clients, like SETI@home. You people all brag about how your macs are on 24/7, but think about all the clock cycles that are wasted. As a conservative estimate, I'd say your machines are idle for at least 16 hours a day. Most modern macs can process a SETI work unit in 16 hours (I can, with a Pismo 400). All you who like to leave your machines on should really consider getting involved with a DC client - many scientific projects can benefit from your CPU time. And, of course, if you are running a DC client, you should join Team MacNN! Visit the team site at: http://team.macnn.com/ This should settle the on/off debate.

Power usage: Power is pretty cheap these days, and I have a low-power laptop, so it's not a concern. With regard to the enviromnental effects of power consumption: if you're running a DC client, the paltry power consumption (probably about 30 watts in my case) is WELL worth the scientific benefit. Leaving one lightbulb on in your house will eat twice the power of my Pismo, and it won't do anything to better mankind. The choice is clear: DISTRIBUTED COMPUTING CLIENTS!

</STRONG>

Couldn't agree more, I run RC5 when I'm using the computer (cause it's a bit smarter with taking resources) and SETI when I'm away. My iMac proabably has been shut down for about 4 days total since I got it which was when the first slot loading one came out...

my 2� and happy crunching

[ 12-07-2001: Message edited by: Sam I Am ]

[malson]

I leave my Dual 800, my 8500, an iBook, and an AMD Athlon machine on 24/7. All of them are crunching blocks for RC5. Electricity is not that expensive and from what I've read, it's better for the electronic components of the machines to not be cycled on and off a lot.

Slightly OT, if you leave your computer on all the time and have an LCD monitor make sure you set the monitor to sleep after a little while. I learned this one the hard way when I had a RC5 window etched into my brand new 17" Apple LCD. It went away after about 2 weeks, but that's something I wouldn't want to have to worry about. I use Sleeper from St. Clair Software. Pretty handy if you ask me....

"leaving it on for 6 years balanced against repeatedly switching it off & on & then scrapping it after 2 years are something to ...rant about on a forum."

I don't understand why some want to believe the lifespan of a computer is significantly reduced when shutting it down and starting it up regularly. As long this has not been proven, I have my doubts (there are many arguments for the opposite). My SE/30 and 6100 still run without a problem (2 years, come on!): they've been shut down and started numerous time, especially the one running os9...

And I'm not ranting, I just want to share some thoughts.

Concerning the environmental impact of production vs. usage: it's not about how these two compare, but how they add. If anyone is interested I would be prepared to run a Life Cycle Analysis on this one ;-)

And Quadroclops, I did not intend to tell you what's good or wrong. I just want to hear what people think about it. Everyone can decide for her- or himself what they want or don't want to do whatever they feel necessary. If someone decides to let some hardware on 24/7, it's a decision I do respect, but I'm just curious why someone might want this and if this someone ever thought of the possible consequences (negative or not).

And Jerommeke, be honest, aren't you bragging? ;-)

Cheers,

Stefan

p.s. Sorry I can't write any more, since I have to shut down my computer. I've been using it for about half an hour now, which is the day's limit.

[Jerommeke]

nope

if i would be bragiing i would now post my uptime, but as you can see, i do not brag

[kbbaucom]

Originally posted by Fyre4ce:
<STRONG>PAY ATTENTION! THIS IS IMPORTANT!

There has been only one fleeting message of distributed computing clients, like SETI@home. You people all brag about how your macs are on 24/7, but think about all the clock cycles that are wasted. As a conservative estimate, I'd say your machines are idle for at least 16 hours a day. Most modern macs can process a SETI work unit in 16 hours (I can, with a Pismo 400). All you who like to leave your machines on should really consider getting involved with a DC client - many scientific projects can benefit from your CPU time. And, of course, if you are running a DC client, you should join Team MacNN! Visit the team site at: http://team.macnn.com/ This should settle the on/off debate.

Power usage: Power is pretty cheap these days, and I have a low-power laptop, so it's not a concern. With regard to the enviromnental effects of power consumption: if you're running a DC client, the paltry power consumption (probably about 30 watts in my case) is WELL worth the scientific benefit. Leaving one lightbulb on in your house will eat twice the power of my Pismo, and it won't do anything to better mankind. The choice is clear: DISTRIBUTED COMPUTING CLIENTS!

</STRONG>

I run SETI on all my computers. I just didn't mention it in my posts. Last I checked, I had 1382 units processed.

[Storyboy]

I leave everything in my house on all the time. Conservation is for sissies.

[Quadroclops]

Well Storyboy, I'll take that with a pinch of salt (distilled from the sweat of my 12 children, who are at this moment running on their treadmills to power my footspa).
Stefan, I hope you can do the same. But 2 years -check out topic headed "video on imac acting strange" & get back to this then.

[mitchell_pgh]

I keep my baby on 24/7... It's nice to be able to check messages, balance my check book, etc from work using VPN...

[stefls]

"(...) I hope you can do the same. But 2 years -check out topic headed "video on imac acting strange" & get back to this then."

Sure thing Q! And about that iMac... mmm must have been overpowered or something...
And for Jerommeke: now you did make me very curious about your uptime


greetz,

Stefan

[Jerommeke]

ok

a slight hint

it isn't as big as it should be, because i installed 9.2.2 some days ago