[IUJHJSDHE]

Quoted from MacUser
<STRONG>An Apple dealer has 'confirmed' to the Campaign for Digital Rights (CDR) that attempting to play the latest Celine Dion CD in a new iMac will result in the machine having to be sent for repair.

As we reported last month, Celine's latest offering - A New Day Has Come - features copy-protection to prevent it being played and duplicated in a PC, and that same copy-protection was believed to be capable of damaging the PC's firmware. It seems that this is definitely the case, as once the CD is inserted into a new iMac it cannot be removed and the machine cannot be restarted.

This may not be the only CD which could cause the problems. CDR reports that a number of CDs from Sony-owned companies such as Epic and Columbia may also pose a threat. These include the soundtrack for Star Wars Episode II and discs from Shakira, Jennifer Lopez and Destiny's Child. The CDs carry a small warning stating 'Will not work on PC/Mac'.

CDR continues to compile a lengthening list of copy-protected CDs and though not all of them will damage your Mac, some are reported as delivering poor quality sound when played 'legitimately' in hi-fi equipment.
</STRONG>

That sucks, is it illegal?

[cdhostage]

Grr.

I don't know if this is true- sounds rather implausible to me - how could sound data interfere with the drive's firmware? I'd understand if there was a virus on the data portion of the CD that acted like a firmware installer gone bad.

I don't like CDR.

[ShoeGeek]

i think some girl from england on this board said she put in a CDR version of the star wars soundtrack in her mac and it messed it up. She couldnt eject the disc either because there is no paperclip hole on the new iMac

[philzilla]

Originally posted by ShoeGeek:
<STRONG>i think some girl from england on this board said she put in a CDR version of the star wars soundtrack in her mac and it messed it up. She couldnt eject the disc either because there is no paperclip hole on the new iMac</STRONG>

hey, a girl in england, with a new iMac? can you gimme any more on this?

[IUJHJSDHE]

Hehe, yeah I remember, it's probably the same thing in this case

[GlobalNomad]

Well I say lets bycot the hell out of them.

Do you know if it will crash a Linux, OS/2, Solaris, Unix, etc...

[VRL]

From what I've read, some music CD's will cause ANY computer to "break". (Rumor has it that MS is trying to work a deal so the CD's would play on Windows computers - time will tell if this is a true rumor.)

Some labels are testing copy-protected CD's in an effort to curb piracy. Which is BS since those people who buy CD's tend to be the same people that do NOT pirate. ... At least in my experience.

It's all about greed of some in the music industry (for power/control/money). They will all fail.

Back on topic - the CD should have a warning. If it doesn't, complain to the "record label" that put out the CD. Then, return the CD for a refund. ... My 2 cents.

[ 05-13-2002: Message edited by: VRL ]

[IUJHJSDHE]

Originally posted by VRL:
<STRONG>Which is BS since those people who buy CD's tend to be the same people that do NOT pirate. ... At least in my experience.</STRONG>

Yes but the pirated CD's that people download have to be riped from someone, So this would stop people.

Originally posted by VRL:
<STRONG>
Back on topic - the CD should have a warning. If it doesn't, complain to the "record label" that put out the CD. Then, return the CD for a refund. ... My 2 cents.

[ 05-13-2002: Message edited by: VRL ]</STRONG>

They do, it's a small warning that says "Will not work in PCs/Macs"

But your right they need more warning

[Dan Szwarc]

If a product deliberately and maliciously destroys your equipment, aren't you entitled to reparations under product liability law?

I would sue the maker of any CD that endered my Mac unusable. Class action lawsuits could abound from such "copy protection". Some people just like to listen to CDs on their Macs!

Boycotting isn't enough. We must rally to warn people of this and do what is possible to destroy (within our legal rights) companies who use this method to avoid the "fair use" laws.

Start with avoiding all Celine Dion music!

[vmarks]

What's more worth noting is this:

These 5 inch shiny plastic discs are NOT CDs.

CDs have to carry the licensed cd-rom or cd-digital audio logo that Philips owns, to be a CD. And Philips has said, any disc that carries copy protection cannot bear that logo, and cannot be called a CD.

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't trust any disc that didn't carry the logo.

And if they are putting the logo on these shiny non-CDs, then it's fraud, and both you and Philips can sue.

[VRL]

Originally posted by IUJHJSDHE:
<STRONG>Yes but the pirated CD's that people download have to be riped from someone, So this would stop people.

</STRONG>

No one I know pirates any music. We buy CD's, and don't pay for anything that's pirated - music, movies, software. So, in my experience, the people who obey laws are the same people who are truly getting "punished" by such anti-piracy policies.

If a person steals music now, he/she will probably steal music in the future, no matter what music conglomerates try to do to stop it. In the meantime, honest people get screwed.

[Matsu]

This is not copy protection. This is playback protection.

It's absolutely ridiculous! We need to start a compendium of CDR circumvention schemes.

It wouldn't even be illegal to circumvent CDR because the discs are currently unplayable. Anyone who cracked their 'play-back' protection could make a legit argument that they are restoring functionality and, furthermore, protecting their equipment from malicious attack.

The labels can claim that they AREN'T technically CD's but this is highly misleading, they essentially marketed as CD's for which a level of functionality is assumed.

I wonder if these discs play in Sony computers.

As for the rest of you. DO NOT BUY PLAY BACK PROTECTED CD's. Write letters to your government reps, the record companies and pester the store manager everytime you see one of these abominations on the store shelves.

AND TO APPLE. It's time to START PUTTING A MANUAL EJECT ON ALL THE COMPUTERS YOU SELL.

[IUJHJSDHE]

Originally posted by VRL:
<STRONG>

No one I know pirates any music. We buy CD's, and don't pay for anything that's pirated - music, movies, software. So, in my experience, the people who obey laws are the same people who are truly getting "punished" by such anti-piracy policies.

If a person steals music now, he/she will probably steal music in the future, no matter what music conglomerates try to do to stop it. In the meantime, honest people get screwed.</STRONG>

There are only a few people who rip the CD's that the other people download, And by stoping everyone includes stoping them. So the fact nobody you know does it does not mean a thing!!

[doppler]

On the amazon.com page of the new Celine "CD" it is listed under the audio cd section, and there is no official warning of the copy protection, but 2 of the four reviews do make mention of the inability to play in a computer's drive. People will decide if this practic continues by the cd's they choose to buy. I hope that puting copy protection on a cd drasticly reduces the sales of that record. At least my new Wilco works just fine in the imac!

[Griggsy]

<STRONG>Celine Dion kills iMacs! </STRONG>

Can I use my Mac to kill Celine Dion, I have a SE sitting bricklike by my side willing to sacrifice itself for the greater good!

[VRL]

Originally posted by Matsu:
<STRONG>This is not copy protection. This is playback protection.

It's absolutely ridiculous! We need to start a compendium of CDR circumvention schemes.

It wouldn't even be illegal to circumvent CDR because the discs are currently unplayable. Anyone who cracked their 'play-back' protection could make a legit argument that they are restoring functionality and, furthermore, protecting their equipment from malicious attack.

The labels can claim that they AREN'T technically CD's but this is highly misleading, they essentially marketed as CD's for which a level of functionality is assumed.

I wonder if these discs play in Sony computers.

As for the rest of you. DO NOT BUY PLAY BACK PROTECTED CD's. Write letters to your government reps, the record companies and pester the store manager everytime you see one of these abominations on the store shelves.

AND TO APPLE. It's time to START PUTTING A MANUAL EJECT ON ALL THE COMPUTERS YOU SELL.

</STRONG>

Good points - explained well. Never thought of it this way (play back protected.)
... I concur with your statements.

To repeat: "If a person steals music now, he/she will probably steal music in the future, no matter what music conglomerates try to do to stop it. In the meantime, honest people get screwed."

IUJHJSDHE : If only a few people are stealing, I say punish them and leave me the heck alone.

[Drakino]

If you ever come across a copy protected CD, buy it, open it, and return it. If it's in the CD section of the store, or has a CD Audio logo anywhere on it, you definitly have a right to complain about it and get your money back. No one expects to buy a mislabeled GameCube game in the PS 2 section, and noone should expect to buy a shiny copy protected disk in the Compact Disc Audio section.

I've bought and returned the one mass distributed CD I know of here at seven different stores, one making me exchange it first. Basicially the RIAA will never listen to us as a consumer. But, if we get the retail stores on our side by driving up their costs with these new discs, we will have a good voice to use to get rid of this silly idea.

[FXWizard]

Originally posted by ShoeGeek:
<STRONG>i think some girl from england on this board said she put in a CDR version of the star wars soundtrack in her mac and it messed it up. She couldnt eject the disc either because there is no paperclip hole on the new iMac</STRONG>

There is an eject hole -- at least on the SUperDrives -- but it's not easy to get to.

I got this from a Mac forum (can't remember where); here are the instructions as originally written:

there is a manual eject for the superdrive on the new flat panel imac. I used it to get my cd out when my first machine died. under the tray there is a gap and then a thin strip of black plastic. just a bit to the right of center is a little square hole with the edges rounded off. behind the hole there is a hinged piece of plastic like the door on a house, the hinge is on the left so pushing through the hole with something small(i used a jewelers screwdriver) it goes back and to the left like a door. if you push it far enough it will unlock the tray.

I've tried it and while it does work, it certainly ain't as easy as with previous iMacs.

[ 05-13-2002: Message edited by: FXWizard ]

[Speckledstone]

This is pretty disturbing. I'm new to MacNN and this is the second time I've seen a thread concerning this subject. (Star Wars Killing the iMac? - was the first)

The June 2002 issue of MacAddict has an editorial on this subject also. Here's a portion of the last paragraph of that editorial:

"... A newly formed consumer-rights group, DigitalConsumer.org (www.digitalconsumer.org) is fighting the good fight to keep fair use alive. Go to its Web site and read the proposed Consumer Technology Bill of Rights. If you agree with these oh-so-reasonable proposals, get in touch with your congressperson. Today.-Rik Myslewski"

I haven't read through the entire site, but from what I've read so far, they seem to have taken a levelheaded approach to this subject. Since all computer users are "Digital Consumers", I suggest you take a look at their proposals.

[TheMosco]

AND TO APPLE. It's time to START PUTTING A MANUAL EJECT ON ALL THE COMPUTERS YOU SELL.

I think if you start up your mac holding down the mouse button, it auto ejects the cd. something like that, you can find it at apple's website.

[Eug]

Not sure if the same thing, but I had this problem with a copy protected CD.

Held down the eject key on the keyboard after doing a hard reboot (held down the power key to shut it off first). Ejected fine if I remember correctly. Or maybe I had use the pin-hole thing, but I can't remember 100%, but I don't think I did.

I don't know why the Mac couldn't be restarted. If it's a desktop, can't s/he just unplug the computer?

[ 05-13-2002: Message edited by: Eug ]

[Eug]

Originally posted by vmarks:
<STRONG>What's more worth noting is this:

These 5 inch shiny plastic discs are NOT CDs.

CDs have to carry the licensed cd-rom or cd-digital audio logo that Philips owns, to be a CD. And Philips has said, any disc that carries copy protection cannot bear that logo, and cannot be called a CD.

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't trust any disc that didn't carry the logo.

And if they are putting the logo on these shiny non-CDs, then it's fraud, and both you and Philips can sue.</STRONG>

Although not surprising, it's interesting that Philips is taking such a hardline stance on this topic, when they are on the other side of the fence with DVD technology. They make the DVD200i DVD+RW drive, but neither DVD+RW nor DVD+R are sanctioned formats of the DVD Forum (which is the keeper of DVD standards). The corresponding formats that are sanctioned are DVD-RW and DVD-R but this drive can burn to neither format. In fact, the DVD+RW format is officially called +RW for this reason, yet the word "DVD" appears in the drive's name and all over their literature.

I don't have anything against the drive per se since it seems to be quite a good machine and the technology is sound, and indeed, I would not hesitate to recommend this drive to some people (but definitely not Mac users). However, it just goes to show you that these companies will continue to do whatever serves themselves, regardless of their stated moral highground on specific topics.

[ 05-13-2002: Message edited by: Eug ]

[higuy83]

hi all--

i know that this is not true, because i have a new imac and have ripped (and burned) a copy of celine's new cd after i bought it. this discussion is interesting, though...

-b

[anarkisst]

I know this is just me but...I have never used my CD player on my (excluding workplaces ) computers, Windows PCs or Macs. I have a CD player with a remote at home and I'm comfortable with that.

[Draugluin]

start up the computer
hold apple-option-o-f
type eject cd
press return
type mac-boot
press return

[IndigoLayna]

I threw out my stereo and bought an iSub and a remote to use with iTunes to play my CD's. I just find it so much more convenient that way. Does anyone else do the same? Im mad that they are punishing their customers this way, but I know that the mp3's will be out there soon. Someones probably working on a hack right now! I love Starwars, but there's no way im gonna buy the soundtrack now!

(Future thinking, lots of people rip the DVD's when they come out. Think they'll do the same thing on the DVD?? Input?)

Layna

[Millennium]

Someone should make a clone of the infamous kitten-killing picture:

Every time you listen to a copy-protected CD...
Celine Dion kills an iMac.
Please, think of the iMacs.

My Photoshop skills aren't sup to snuff, or I'd do it myself. Anyone willing to give this a try?

[jblakeh1]

This is ironic. I wonder if the record industry realizes what they have done? I typically buy at least a few cds a week, and now I'm AFRAID to buy anything for fear it will ruin my equipment.

Brilliant.

[chris v]

Originally posted by higuy83:
<STRONG>hi all--

i know that this is not true, because i have a new imac and have ripped (and burned) a copy of celine's new cd after i bought it. this discussion is interesting, though...

-b </STRONG>

The playback-protected Celine Dion CD's have only been released in Europe, and possibly Canada, so far. I think they're testing the market before they try it in the U.S.

Seriously, we've got to boycott these companies, and let them know why. Email them. Call them. Write letters on actual paper and mail them. Buying a copy, and returning it opened because you "found out it wasn't a CD" is a GREAT idea.

Basically, a large ruckus needs to ensue.

CV

[qaramel2001]

IMPORTANT: I HAVEN'T TRY THIS, I JUST HAVE COME ACROSS IT, AND I CONSIDER IT RELEVANT TO THIS THREAD - ANYONE WILLING TO TRY IT, AT HIS OWN RISK

Apparently, there's a way to skip that kind of protection:
http://www.chip.de/praxis_wissen/pra...n_8725919.html

The page is in German, and I can't speak German, but the photo should be self-explanatory.

Translating what some guy says in this Spanish forum http://www.macuarium.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/003072.html :

The copy protection system is based in a 'corrupted track' added at the end fo the 'valid tracks' of the cd. Audio cd players seem to ignore that track, but it is readed by drive units in computers, which causes them to crash. To avoid the drive units reading that 'corrupted track', two solutions are provided:

1- Place a Post-It note in such way that it covers the easily-visible-space that separates valid audio data from corrupted ones. The drive unit will then not read the corrupted ones.



2- Use a marker pen to draw a tangential line that covers that space/ track. Important: it should cover that space/ track, but NOT the end of the valid data tracks (the ones from that space/ track to the center of the disk). If you get it wrong. erase (use cloth+alcohol) and redraw.



NOTE:
2nd method is reccomended, as Post-it notes may come-off and jam the cd player.

Editions: typos + important note at the top

[ 05-14-2002: Message edited by: qaramel2001 ]

[ 05-14-2002: Message edited by: qaramel2001 ]

[Matsu]

There must be a way to accomplish this in software?

[maffioso]

Boycott all Celion Dion CD's, as you can tell I don't like her...

[mitchell_pgh]

I think the companies that are producing these copy protected CDs are asking for:

1) A boycott of their products
2) Bad publicity
3) Even more pirating of their CD

They should just let it go. MP3 is here to stay, and nobody is going to stop the technology. All this means is that I have to record the song from my CD player to my computer and then burn it and type in the names.

[chris v]

Originally posted by qaramel2001:
<STRONG>


]</STRONG>

Wow. If it's this easy to defeat, and that gets spread around the web, it'll really have these jerks squirming.

It's already my natural tendency (due to general appreciation of music) to boycott Celine Dion, but I'm certainly going to boycott Sony as well until they back down.

CV

[absmiths]

Originally posted by Eug:
<STRONG>
Although not surprising, it's interesting that Philips is taking such a hardline stance on this topic, when they are on the other side of the fence with DVD technology. They make the DVD200i DVD+RW drive, but neither DVD+RW nor DVD+R are sanctioned formats of the DVD Forum (which is the keeper of DVD standards). The corresponding formats that are sanctioned are DVD-RW and DVD-R but this drive can burn to neither format. In fact, the DVD+RW format is officially called +RW for this reason, yet the word "DVD" appears in the drive's name and all over their literature.
[ 05-13-2002: Message edited by: Eug ]</STRONG>

I think this is a different issue. The Philips drive CAN read DVD and is therefore legitimately DVD-compatible, the same way that a CD drive in a computer can read CD's and is therefore CD-compatible. It is perhaps misleading that Philips calls the proprietary format DVD+RW - but there is a clear distinction between that and DVD-RW - they probably consider the moniker "DVD+RW" as a proprietary, copyrighted technology unrelated to DVD-RW.

[Jerommeke]

in my humble opinion celine dion does not only kill imac's, but her awful voice does also kill my ears.

[Eug]

Originally posted by absmiths:
<STRONG>

I think this is a different issue. The Philips drive CAN read DVD and is therefore legitimately DVD-compatible, the same way that a CD drive in a computer can read CD's and is therefore CD-compatible. It is perhaps misleading that Philips calls the proprietary format DVD+RW - but there is a clear distinction between that and DVD-RW - they probably consider the moniker "DVD+RW" as a proprietary, copyrighted technology unrelated to DVD-RW.</STRONG>

That's a valid point. By the way, I was mixed up in the models. Philips, while a big player in DVD+RW, especially with it's set top DVD+RW recorder, doesn't make the DVD200i. It's an HP product. Nonetheless the rest of the rant is unchanged.

Off topic: I still think it's unfortunate that Apple almost completely abandoned DVD-RAM. It is still by far the best data format, hands down.

[Superchicken]

You know this really isn't to bright. I mean really, six dollar audio cable and a disc man. And a copy of simple sound and M pegger.
That's all you need.
Or felt tip sound studio.
You plug the audio in into your Mac, plug the cable to your CD player, hit play, then record to your hard drive as an AIFF then convert.
It's a bit longer than burning, and yeah it's annoying, but most people who want to keep file sharing going will do it anyway.
My suggestion would be instead to acctually prosicute people, have some sorta meta data and convince windows to let you see what MP3s they have on their Hard drives, I mean Microsoft alreayd dosn't care about their consumers.

Prosocute like 50 of em, and you'll cut file sharing down by a third, I mean look how many people were freaked out about Anthrax.
Serious spend some cash and acctually prosicute people who have ilegal software otherwise don't screw over those of us who would love to pirate your stuff but don't because we're honest and it's ilegal!

[Macpilot]

Well, the new Rush CD Vapor Trails (a great one) plays nice in my Titanium and encoded on iTunes quite nicely too! At least Atlantic has not gone this route, yet!

If that is true about Sony I am very disappointed in them, as I have spent a lot of money on their products; TVs, DVDs, PS2s, walkmen, headphones, etc. This is crap!

What about someone who does not even own a traditional stereo system, but just has a computer that they use as their stereo? This blows for a lot consumers.

I still buy CDs, but I want the right to be able to listen to them in any of my "CD" players.

[engage1000]

This is all very interesting. No matter what kind of anti-piracy schemes they come out with, someone will come up with a way to circumvent it.

I myself absolutely refuse to buy music cd's. They so freaking expensive. In Canada, the average good cd costs 20 bucks, sometimes more, sometimes less. 20 bucks an hour for music!

I love to listen to music, but until cd's become 10 bucks a pop or less, I will continue to pirate music and download it off the net.

I really don't want to spend 20 bucks on something that will only last a day's worth of use before I get tired of it.

Those are just my views, and the more they encrypt and protect, the more I will pirate. The music labels think they can rip us off. The artists themselves only make about 50 cents a cd anyways, it costs not even that to produce the cd... so the rest is all profit for the music company and the store selling it. Pfft...

-John

[engage1000]

I must mention that I don't sell the music that I copy or download, and that I strictly use it for personal listening. Also, if I am a fan of a small time artist who does not have millions upon millions like Celion Dione, then I will buy the cd or whatever media it may happen to come on. That is the only exception.

Flame me if you want, but I am not afraid to speak what I feel and do. Anyone else want to?

[VRL]

There's a good commentary in the new Mac Addict about this. They make some good points.

Anyway, a proposed bill (Consumer Broadband and Digital Television Promotion Act) would affect far more than just music CD's. If you want to protect Fair Use (freedom), take action. Boycott. Write your congressperson today. If we all do nothing, the big labels, Disney, Sony, etc will win.

All these behemoths are doing - "trying to control" so they can protect their longevity, as well as their bank accounts. They are content living in the past, and are counting on widespread apathy among consumers.

We all need to take action to stop this.

BTW, if you are unaware of all that's happening, please become aware. Here's a place to start: http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,51275,00.html

[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: VRL ]

[Knof8]

How would this work if you were using an external cd drive? I'm assuming you could then eject the cd, and if underneath OS X restart the finder without having to reboot.

So Johnnie then all the songs you have pirated on your computer you delete after a day or so being on there because you're now sick of them right, and if you ever wanted them again you could find some place to download them from again. Doubt it, more likely you have the same mp3's on there for a while now and set up in specific playlists that you'll load up when you want to. Just like you may listen to a CD for a while and get tired of it, and so you'll put in another CD you own.

Hmm... think that companies like Rio might have a problem with this as well. Since if you can't make mp3's anymore because of this "playback protection", you can't use portable mp3 players very well. Some people are just so greedy and stupid.

[SunSeeker]

http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/main_...fm?NewsID=4645
http://kbase.info.apple.com/cgi-bin/...&val=KC.106882

[Dan Szwarc]

If music companies insist that we pay for "music we listen to" like downloaded MP3s, etc., then I insist that they REFUND money for music we DON'T LISTEN TO, like artists with one good song on an album and others that just plain suck. I have a bunch of CDs I can't return because I opened them. How about returning my money since I never listen to them?

DVD discussion people: keep on topic. This is about copy-protected non-CDs.

I agree that filing Celine Dion in with other music CDs implies they are CDs and if they don't work they can be returned as defective (labeled as CDs or NOT) for money back. If they are marketed WITH cds then they are misleading consumers. Put them in a special "copy-protected music discs" section and see how they sell.

"Will not play on PC/Mac" is different from "May break your Mac". Sue sue sue the pants of them for mailicious destruction of property!