[TETENAL]

The Norwegian Forbrukerrådet is protesting against the terms of the iTunes Music Store which they think weakens consumer rights.

http://forbrukerportalen.no/Artikler/2006/1138119849.71

In particular they criticise that Apple can change the terms after music has been downloaded, that the iTunes Music Store is not using Norwegian law, and that the store doesn't want to be liable for security risks it introduces into the user's computer (like Sony did).

If the protest is successful, Norwegian law might apply to the iTunes Music Store in Norway in the future maybe.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

If the protest is successful, Apple will give a rat's ass about Norwegian law and just close down the iTunes Music Store in Norway for good.

Fixinated.

-t

[Kevin]

Pretty much.

[MOTHERWELL]

Are you from like Norland or something?

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by MOTHERWELL

Are you from like Norland or something?

What's Norland ?

-t

[Kerrigan]

I actually do give a rat's ass.

[vexborg]

Originally Posted by turtle777

What's Norland ?

-t

Swedish Lapland - Norrland

[analogika]

Norway != Sweden

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by analogika

!=

Not sure if that will make it clearer for him

[Weyland-Yutani]

I for one applaud anyone fighting draconian EULAs.

Forbrukerraadet isn't just going against iTMS in Norway but also CDON.com, prefueled.com and MSN.no.

cheers

W-Y

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

I for one applaud anyone fighting draconian EULAs.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

I for one applaud anyone fighting draconian EULAs.

Can you explain what part of the Apple iTunes Music Store EULA is draconian, as compared to a regular standard ?

[Mastrap]

The Norwegian Forbrukerrådet has a point.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

The Norwegian Forbrukerrådet has a point.

True. Exactly one. Above the å !

-t

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

Can you explain what part of the Apple iTunes Music Store EULA is draconian, as compared to a regular standard ?

Compared to a regular standard of what? The iTMS EULA is draconian in the points the Forbrukerraadet points out.

Most important one being:

- iTMS can at any time change any terms

When a person buys a song then he/she aught only have to follow the terms of purchese *at the time of purchase*, all things being fair.

The point Forbrukerraadet makes about music only being played on an iPod mp3 player is weaker because that is a known limitation and part of the service being offered by the iTMS.

However, the right to change any terms at any time that the iTMS reserves itself is a concern for consumers and the main objection of the Forbrukerraadet. It is typical of EULAs today and perhaps that is what you meant when you mentioned a regular standard, but such conditions are bound to be tested against in each and every country because they present a serious disadvantage to the consumer.

@Kevin

that was funny!

cheers

W-Y

[turtle777]

W-Y, the funny thing is that the SAME thing takes place on a much higher level, like state laws for different countries.

E.g. Germany: up until now, of every CD that you bought, you had the right to free personal copies, and you were even allowed to pass copies on to friends (not for money, of course). They are thinking about abolishing this "right to personal copies" law. But what that means is that even CDs that you bought 10 years ago, under the assumption you had a right to personal copies, would suddenly fall under that new law. So effectively, even the government would change law that effects prior purchases and usage.

I don't think they (Norway) could uphold that the EULA is unfair and draconian if even the governments themselves do the exact same things.

Now, I'm not saying that I like it, but we gotta live with the fact that there is no protected status quo.

-t

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

Can you explain what part of the Apple iTunes Music Store EULA is draconian, as compared to a regular standard ?

They explain it on their web site I linked to in the first post:

• Unreasonable terms
• English law
• Limits liability

I'm somewhat puzzled that a Luxembourgian company doing business in Norway can just say English law applies. I didn't know that companies can cherry-pick their laws.

[Weyland-Yutani]

The law of the land and business agreements.. apples and oranges.

cheers

W-Y

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

The law of the land and business agreements.. apples and oranges.

So ?

I still don't think they will have a chance with their argument.
And even if, we all know what will happen. Apple will NOT give in to the pressure of a tiny land in northern Europe. They'd rather shut it down.

-t

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

The law of the land and business agreements..

Law of the land? iTunes S.à rl is located in Luxembourg, the customers are located in Norway. What does the UK have to do with that?
Law of the business agreements? iTunes S.à rl is selling to consumers not to businesses.

[Chuckit]

Swedish law applies to this post. Thank you.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Swedish law applies to this post. Thank you.

-t

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Law of the land? iTunes S.à rl is located in Luxembourg, the customers are located in Norway. What does the UK have to do with that?
Law of the business agreements? iTunes S.à rl is selling to consumers not to businesses.

Nobody forces you to enter a business agreement. And you don't need to be a business to enter a business agreement. My own company currently uses UK law, even when dealing with US customers. There's nothing unusual about this.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

There's nothing unusual about this.

This is extremely unusually. When you regularly do business with consumers in once country the law applies where the consumer is living. Otherwise companies would just pick laws of countries that are in their favour (with regard to distance selling law, warranty etc.) iTunes is doing business with Norwegian citizens with a Norwegian web-site and in Norwegian currency. To me it's clear that Norwegian law should apply. The UK is not involved at all.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

This is extremely unusually. When you regularly do business with consumers in once country the law applies where the consumer is living. Otherwise companies would just pick laws of countries that are in their favour (with regard to distance selling law, warranty etc.) iTunes is doing business with Norwegian citizens with a Norwegian web-site and in Norwegian currency. To me it's clear that Norwegian law should apply. The UK is not involved at all.

Your argument is flawed.

First of, you are confusing b2B with B2C.

Secondly, it does not apply the same way to online stores as it does to B&M (brick and mortar) stores.

Yes, maybe Apple shouldn't offer a localized version of the ITMS, but rather, a generic english version for Norway. That way, the customer decide if they want to do business that way or not. Nobody is making them. But basically, by agreeing to the terms, they already agreed to purchasing under non-Norwegian law. WTF ? Were they forced at gun-point ?

-t

[olePigeon]

By Section 113 of the Violence Against Women and Department of Justice Reauthorization Act, I find this thread annoying. That will be $25,000 plus 2 years in prison.*

Oh wait... Swedish law? OK, nevermind. You may continue being annoying. But not in America!


* A real U.S. law by the way, passed just last month.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by turtle777

So ?

I still don't think they will have a chance with their argument.

They do if the law of the land agrees with them.

Originally Posted by turtle777

And even if, we all know what will happen. Apple will NOT give in to the pressure of a tiny land in northern Europe. They'd rather shut it down.

-t

Perhaps, but that isn't really interesting to this discussion. Apple's service is not something very important to Norway. If the Forbrukerraadet gets its way then Apple will either have to comply or leave. So will MSN and all the rest that offer similar services with similar terms.

cheers

W-Y

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

This is extremely unusually. When you regularly do business with consumers in once country the law applies where the consumer is living. Otherwise companies would just pick laws of countries that are in their favour (with regard to distance selling law, warranty etc.) iTunes is doing business with Norwegian citizens with a Norwegian web-site and in Norwegian currency. To me it's clear that Norwegian law should apply. The UK is not involved at all.

You're confusing bricks and mortar business with online business. The Norwegian Apple Store is nothing but a front, powered by servers in the UK, owned by Apple in Luxembourg. The business itself is not in Norway, so Norwegian law is of no interest here. The fact that the store has a Norwegian interface is a courtesy. The only Norwegian laws that Apple have to comply with are licensing and copyright laws.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Law of the land? iTunes S.à rl is located in Luxembourg, the customers are located in Norway. What does the UK have to do with that?
Law of the business agreements? iTunes S.à rl is selling to consumers not to businesses.

Law of the land would be law of Norway in this case. I have no idea how the UK enters into this picture.

A purchase is a business agreement.

cheers

W-Y

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

A purchase is a business agreement.

In German law, there is a difference between B2B and B2C.
Basically, the consumers are protected more because they are expected to be less knowledgeable. I don't think that this assumption is necessarily true for other countries.

Tetenal, you really gotta think outside the box a little bit. Many issues you raise show no sign of consideration of non-German point of view.

-t

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

You're confusing bricks and mortar business with online business. The Norwegian Apple Store is nothing but a front, powered by servers in the UK, owned by Apple in Luxembourg. The business itself is not in Norway, so Norwegian law is of no interest here. The fact that the store has a Norwegian interface is a courtesy.

The website is Norwegian, the currency is Norwegian, they probably require the customer to be a resident of Norway (like they do with all the other national music stores). For all intents and purposes the business is in Norway. Nowhere else in the world you can purchase from the Norwegian iTMS. Certainly not in the UK. Where the servers are located is pretty much irrelevant (and how do you know they are in the UK?)

Originally Posted by Mastrap

The only Norwegian laws that Apple have to comply with are licensing and copyright laws.

Because copyright law favours Apple in this case? You are cherry picking your laws. I doubt that this complies with the Norwegian legislator.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

A purchase is a business agreement.

OK. Let's say I'm selling you my used car. Can I include a passus in the purchase contract that the law of Zimbabwe shall apply to it? This would open new opportunities for used car sales I guess.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

OK. Let's say I'm selling you my used car. Can I include a passus in the purchase contract that the law of Zimbabwe shall apply to it? This would open new opportunities for used car sales I guess.

You're, again, confusing bricks and mortar with online. If you're selling a car located in Germany to a buyer located in Germany then German law applies.

If you're selling a file located on a web server in Zimbabwe that is owned by a company incorporated in the UK to a guy in Germany then UK might very well apply.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

You're, again, confusing bricks and mortar with online. If you're selling a car located in Germany to a buyer located in Germany then German law applies.

If you're selling a file located on a web server in Zimbabwe that is owned by a company incorporated in the UK to a guy in Germany then UK might very well apply.

Sorry, but you are just plain wrong. Will you accept Kagi as an example. It is an American company and has it's servers in the United States afaik and does sell online only:

https://support.kagi.com/index.php?x...root=54&id=150

E.U. VAT Facts
Under E.U. law, we are required to apply VAT to all products which are delivered by email or electronic download to customers who are located in an E.U. country. The VAT rate we apply depends on the country in which the customer is located. In the table below we list the VAT rates for each E.U. country.

The law of the country of the customer applies.

[Chuckit]

All that says is that VAT is variable depending on where you are when you buy the goods. I'm not sure that goes quite far enough to prove a universal legal principle.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

All that says is that VAT is variable depending on where you are when you buy the goods. I'm not sure that goes quite far enough to prove a universal legal principle.

It shows that the tax law of the customer's country applies, which might be a hint that the consumer protection laws of the customer's country apply as well. On the other side I have Mastrap's opinion. What qualifies him to make definite statements about the matter? Is he a lawyer?

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

OK. Let's say I'm selling you my used car. Can I include a passus in the purchase contract that the law of Zimbabwe shall apply to it? This would open new opportunities for used car sales I guess.

I don't think we're in disagreement. You are saying what I have been stressing.

cheers

W-Y

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Is he a lawyer?

I own a company that sells goods and services online. As a result this is extremely familiar territory for me.

Our servers are in the US, the company is registered in the UK, I reside in Canada. UK law applies in our dealings with all of our customers, be they in Germany, in Norway or anywhere else in the world. Why? Because we say so in our user agreement. It simply isn't possible to deal with all of the different laws governing all of your customers from around the globe. The law recognizes that fact and makes allowances for this. The only exception is 'unless prohibited by law in your place of residence.' But this puts the onus on the customer, not the company.

Tax law is different, because the payment of taxes is the responsibility of the citizen. The citizen is required to pay VAT, but the company is required to collect the VAT on the customer's behalf, then pay the VAT to the state. Why? Because it would be impossible for the state to collect the correct VAT from the consumer.

Hope this clears it up for you.

[The Windozer]

In Norway, we have a law that says we can take stuff from the UK. It goes back a long way.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by The Windozer

In Norway, we have a law that says we can take stuff from the UK. It goes back a long way.

a long long way

cheers

W-Y

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by TETENAL

The law of the country of the customer applies.

Tetenal, don't come of like a complete idiot.

There IS a difference between tax law and contractual law.

-t