[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Quoted for posterity.

Your point?



and did you really need to post that in two threads? Isn't baiting in one thread enough?

[Kevin]

von do you not even uderstand the total nuttery of your post? While I disagree with you on lots of things, I would NEVER be glad to see you "get what you deserve" whatever that meant

I mean if that is how you really feel, thanks atleast for being honest now

You are posting in a very hateful a vile way. Do you really want people to put your words and actions with the Muslim way?

I would not.

[moodymonster]

when you have to get into semantics to defend a argument, you've already lost - you're just to stubborn to realise it.

And you haven't had the time to look at the original transcript? Well you've spent a fair amount of time here - so what's a few more minutes to actually read what the guy said. Even the transcript is just excerpts. It's not long.

Sheik Yousef Al-Qaradhawi: Our War with the Jews Is in the Name of Islam

Following are excerpts from a program with Sheik Yousef Al-Qaradhawi, aired on Qatar TV on February 25, 2006.

Yousef Al-Qaradhawi: Our war with the Jews is over land, brothers. We must understand this. If they had not plundered our land, there wouldn't be a war between us.

[...]

We are fighting them in the name of Islam, because Islam commands us to fight whoever plunders our land, and occupies our country. All the school of Islamic jurisprudence - the Sunni, the Shiite, the Ibadhiya - and all the ancient and modern schools of jurisprudence - agree that any invader, who occupies even an inch of land of the Muslims, must face resistance. The Muslims of that country must carry out the resistance, and the rest of the Muslims must help them. If the people of that country are incapable or reluctant, we must fight to defend the land of Islam, even if the local [Muslims] give it up.

They must not allow anyone to take a single piece of land away from Islam. That is what we are fighting the Jews for. We are fighting them... Our religion commands us... We are fighting in the name of religion, in the name of Islam, which makes this Jihad an individual duty, in which the entire nation takes part, and whoever is killed in this [Jihad] is a martyr. This is why I ruled that martyrdom operations are permitted, because he commits martyrdom for the sake of Allah, and sacrifices his soul for the sake of Allah.

We do not disassociate Islam from the war. On the contrary, disassociating Islam from the war is the reason for our defeat. We are fighting in the name of Islam.

[...]

They fight us with Judaism, so we should fight them with Islam. They fight us with the Torah, so we should fight them with the Koran. If they say "the Temple," we should say "the Al-Aqsa Mosque." If they say: "We glorify the Sabbath," we should say: "We glorify the Friday." This is how it should be. Religion must lead the war. This is the only way we can win.

[...]

Everything will be on our side and against Jews on [Judgment Day], at that time, even the stones and the trees will speak, with or without words, and say: "Oh servant of Allah, oh Muslim, there's a Jew behind me, come and kill him." They will point to the Jews. It says "servant of Allah," not "servant of desires," "servant of women," "servant of the bottle," "servant of Marxism," or "servant of liberalism"... It said servant of Allah."

When the Muslims, the Arabs, and the Palestinians enter a war, they do it to worship Allah. They enter it as Muslims. The hadith says: "Oh Muslim." It says "oh Muslim," not "oh Palestinian, Jordanian, Syrian, or Arab nationalist." No, it says: "Oh Muslim." When we enter [a war] under the banner of Islam, and under the banner of serving Allah, we will be victorious.

to me in summation, it says:

kills anyone who is on what we decide is Muslim land

kill indiscriminately by the use of suicide bombers

and if the Palestinians try and use peaceful methods to resolve the situation, other Muslims should come in and prolong terrorism.

but then again, it is up to the individual how they interpret something, and as you so diplomatically point out - I am fekking stupid, and most likely lacking the comprehension to decipher the hidden messages of love and kindness in the words above.

[Kevin]

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Kevin

If you squint that pic looks like the three little pigs having an orgy.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

And btw Big Mac. When someone criticises Islam I have no problem with him. But that has yet to be donein this thread.

I'd like to see what kind of critique is acceptable to you, von. I made an effort in that post not to say anything I thought would be openly provocative, but apparently my words still managed to offend you. I think it's more about who vmarks and I are as Zionists that upsets you so, much more than the contents of our posts.

So far it's the same old attack on Muslims for what one person says. It's the same old with a moderator supporting those blatant attacks on Muslims. It's the same old hatred that you have in your hearts towards Muslims. Your nation hasn't evolved one bit since the days of slavery. And neither has the majority of your people.

Way to libel my people, von. Thank you, at least, for expressing your true beliefs. I would find it interesting if you would kindly quote the portions of my message that make you call me a hater of Muslims. My post was not written in a hateful tone, as far as I am concerned; I spoke only to facts. Those facts may be uncomfortable for some to acknowledge, but that does not negate the truth. You claim my nation has not evolved since the days of slavery. That's a rather ridiculous statement to make, but I wish you'd elaborate on it for me so we can all gain further insight to your beliefs. Sure, I could go into various aspects of Islamic culture that seem to have not evolved a bit since the religion's founding, including, but not limited to, the Islamic slave trade, which is still practiced in Africa to this day. In truth, that slavery statement of yours applies far better to Islam than Judaism, so I'm quite mystified by your usage of it. But then, I can safely assume you wrote that comment only because you hate Zionism, which is simply the fulfillment of daily prayers since exile for the restoration of Jewish sovereignty over the Jewish homeland.

And you can continue to try to say all those who are against Israel are anti-Semites. It just shows yet again that you will lie and cheat to get what you want. Just like you have done before and just like you will do again.

Lie and cheat to get what "we" Jews want? How so? Could you expound on those hateful remarks about an entire group of people? Could you identify the deeds you're alluding to? You say the Jewish people have lied, cheated and stolen for gain. That kind of rhetoric sounds remarkably like Nazism, and I sincerely doubt you'll offer anything other than additional Hitlerian-like rhetoric in response to my challenge. And once again, I find it strange that you would accuse another nation of lying, cheating and stealing, when Mohammed himself practiced lies and deceit to overpower his enemies. Did he not teach it is acceptable to create a false treaty with a stronger adversary, the Al-Hudaybiyya, and honor it only until such time that the Muslims have the strength to conquer that enemy? That's the type of treaty Arafat spoke of when he referred to agreements he made with Israel, is it not? Now I bet in your heart the means likely justify the ends because the deception serves Islam's purpose. The fact remains that you'll never find in my religion permission to lie, cheat and steal. If I were psychologically analyzing you, I would say you are projecting negative features of your own culture.

I've got no problem with Jews.

That remark has me ROFLing. You just seriously libeled all Jews twice, and you didn't even restrict the libel to any particular subset of Jews. If you have no problem with Jews, either you're schizophrenic or that statement means something very different from how it reads.

I've got a problem with Israel the "state" and the supporters of that "state". Just like I have a problem with all racist little pigs and all occupying little pigs.

I do not know precisely why you hate Israel so passionately. I suspect it's as a result of your upbringing. I'm no racist. I do not hate you or your people. I do know you cannot honestly say the same thing in regard to me and my people. You've bought into all of the cherished myths and lies found in Arabist propaganda that only perpetuates the Arab-Israeli conflict. Look at your brother Taliesin - although he too harbors some degree of irrational hostility toward Israel, he also went so far as to admit plainly that the existence of Israel is God's will. I commend him for having the courage to admit such a thing. Of course, I now see the distinct difference in your respective philosophies - Taliesin is substantially more moderate and realistic than you are, von.

You will all get what you deserve in the end and I can't wait for it to happen.

I do not know exactly what kind of treatment you envision for my people, but whether your expectation is subjugation or genocide is of little concern to me. I do geniuinely hope you live to see each nation get what it deserves, von. Please do pray along with the Jewish people for the establishment of universal truth and justice in the world. I promise you, though, a just world will not be at all as you expected.

“Remember these, O Jacob; and Israel, for you are My servant; I formed you that you be a servant to Me, Israel, do not forget Me. I erased your transgressions like a thick cloud, and like a cloud have I erased your sins; return to Me for I have redeemed you.” (Isaiah 44)

“And I will return the captivity of My people Israel, and they shall rebuild desolate cities and inhabit [them], and they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine, and they shall make gardens and eat their produce. And I will plant them on their land, and they shall no longer be uprooted from upon their land, that I have given them, said the Lord your God.” (Amos 9)

“For so said the Lord of Hosts: After glory, He sent me to the nations that plunder you (Israel), for whoever touches you touches the apple of His eye.” (Zechariah 2)

[von Wrangell]

Big Mac:

Both you and vmarks choose to live in the States (if your location is anything to go by). When I say "your people" I refer to exactly that. Americans.

But no matter what I say both you and vmarks will continue to spin it in a way that suits you.

Show me one example of criticism of Islam in this thread before I said what you quoted. That is criticism and not a blatant attack on Muslims and Islam. Maybe then we can have a civil discussion.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Maybe then we can have a civil discussion.

I'm interested in the notion that you get to decide when we can or cannot have a civil discussion, after you've just said:

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

You will all get what you deserve in the end and I can't wait for it to happen.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by vmarks

I'm interested in the notion that you get to decide when we can or cannot have a civil discussion, after you've just said:

Do you believe God will reward us or punish us depending on what we deserve in the end?

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Do you believe God will reward us or punish us depending on what we deserve in the end?

Most modern Muslims had better hope not.

[von Wrangell]

nm. This place has gone down the shitter.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Both you and vmarks choose to live in the States (if your location is anything to go by). When I say "your people" I refer to exactly that. Americans.

When you as an outspoken Muslim say to outspoken Jews "you people," it's taken by most anyone to mean "you Jews." You'll see my point is true when you look at the responses of the various people to what you wrote. I did not imagine for a second that you were referring to Americans the way you worded it. Are you then saying that all Americans are lying, cheating, stealing pigs? All 290 million of us? What about American Muslims? And now I'm a bit more interested in knowing what the getting what we deserve language means, now that you've suggested you're speaking about America.

Btw, I assume vmarks has dual citizenship, as he travels back and forth between the US and Israel. As for me, I hope to immigrate to Israel at some point in the not too distant future. And no matter where I'm living, Israel is still my spiritual homeland.

But no matter what I say both you and vmarks will continue to spin it in a way that suits you.

I was not trying to spin anything whatsoever. You led me to believe you were calling my people lying, cheating, stealing pigs. Now that you say you were speaking about Americans, I'm still offended, but I am also now perplexed by your words.

Show me one example of criticism of Islam in this thread before I said what you quoted. That is criticism and not a blatant attack on Muslims and Islam. Maybe then we can have a civil discussion.

Sorry, von, It's not my obligation to disprove an unsubstantiated claim you made; rather, it's your job to first attempt to prove your claim. I see nothing in what either vmarks or I wrote that could be characterized as a blanket attack on Muslims.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Big Mac:

Both you and vmarks choose to live in the States (if your location is anything to go by). When I say "your people" I refer to exactly that. Americans.

Um so calling us Americans "piggies" and telling us will "get what we deserve in the end" is somehow better?

I disagree with your stance on religion and political issues. But I would never once think of hoping any ill will to you or your family.

That isn't dealing with Godly feelings. You are reaching from another place with those feelings.

I suggest you get yourself in check soon.