[moodymonster]

http://www.comcast.net/news/internat...=itn_christian

KABUL, Afghanistan - An Afghan man who allegedly converted from Islam to Christianity is being prosecuted in a Kabul court and could be sentenced to death, a judge said Sunday.

Guy converted 16 years ago while working as an aid worker.

If he doesn't renounce Christianity they'll most likely execute him.

Sounds like something from the dark ages, to me anyway.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by moodymonster

Sounds like something from the dark ages

That's because it is something from the dark ages.

Makes me wonder what the point of removing the Taliban was.

[Weyland-Yutani]

"We are not against any particular religion in the world. But in Afghanistan, this sort of thing is against the law," the judge said. "It is an attack on Islam. ... The prosecutor is asking for the death penalty."



Is Islam determined to stay in the dark ages for much longer? Who let the Afghans base their constitution on Sharia law anyway? Estúpidos.

W-Y

[Kevin]

Who let? That was a silly question.

No one LET. They DID.

[IonCable]

ah, Islam the religon of Peace, Love and Tolerance.





NOT

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by Kevin

No one LET. They DID.

There are certain laws one shouldn't be let to have.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

"We are not against any particular religion in the world. But in Afghanistan, this sort of thing is against the law," the judge said. "It is an attack on Islam. ... The prosecutor is asking for the death penalty."
Who let the Afghans base their constitution on Sharia law anyway? Estúpidos.

W-Y

Wasn't the whole point of invading Afghanistan to remove the Taliban and to let the Afghani people choose a government of their own liking? Well, they have done that, they have a formed a government of their own liking. Unfortunately, the government they formed is not to our liking. Too bad.

For those who advocate overthrowing tyrants, despots, and dictator to allow self-rule to take hold, why are you now complaining when the countries we helped liberate are doing just that, ruling themselves by their own system of values? That seems more than a bit dis-ingenuous.

Granted, having a country run under sharia law is not what I would have hoped for but the point is that the Afghani people chose this form of government and as such, I think we ought to support them in their choice. That is what democracy is all about, isn't it? supporting a people's right to self-rule and self-determination?

Sometimes you people make me shake my head in awe. Everyone talks about bringing democracy to nations but if it doesn't turn out just like the brand of Western-style capitalistic democracy we have here in the United States people complain. I hate to break the bad news to you folks, but democracy is about SELF-RULE and the ideas of self-rule can be manifest in any number of ways.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

Wasn't the whole point of invading Afghanistan to remove the Taliban and to let the Afghani people choose a government of their own liking? Well, they have done that, they have a formed a government of their own liking. Unfortunately, the government they formed is not to our liking. Too bad.

For those who advocate overthrowing tyrants, despots, and dictator to allow self-rule to take hold, why are you now complaining when the countries we helped liberate are doing just that, ruling themselves by their own system of values? That seems more than a bit dis-ingenuous.

Granted, having a country run under sharia law is not what I would have hoped for but the point is that the Afghani people chose this form of government and as such, I think we ought to support them in their choice. That is what democracy is all about, isn't it? supporting a people's right to self-rule and self-determination?

Sometimes you people make me shake my head in awe. Everyone talks about bringing democracy to nations but if it doesn't turn out just like the brand of Western-style capitalistic democracy we have here in the United States people complain. I hate to break the bad news to you folks, but democracy is about SELF-RULE and the ideas of self-rule can be manifest in any number of ways.

Good point.

[moodymonster]

Germany voted in the Nazi party after WW1. What people want, or what they think they want/been told to think they want, isn't always the best thing.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy

Wasn't the whole point of invading Afghanistan to remove the Taliban and to let the Afghani people choose a government of their own liking? Well, they have done that, they have a formed a government of their own liking. Unfortunately, the government they formed is not to our liking. Too bad.

For those who advocate overthrowing tyrants, despots, and dictator to allow self-rule to take hold, why are you now complaining when the countries we helped liberate are doing just that, ruling themselves by their own system of values? That seems more than a bit dis-ingenuous.

Granted, having a country run under sharia law is not what I would have hoped for but the point is that the Afghani people chose this form of government and as such, I think we ought to support them in their choice. That is what democracy is all about, isn't it? supporting a people's right to self-rule and self-determination?

Sometimes you people make me shake my head in awe. Everyone talks about bringing democracy to nations but if it doesn't turn out just like the brand of Western-style capitalistic democracy we have here in the United States people complain. I hate to break the bad news to you folks, but democracy is about SELF-RULE and the ideas of self-rule can be manifest in any number of ways.

You are assuming Afghanistan was invaded and taken over by the West to spread democracy, but that is where you are very wrong. You are confusing Afghanistan with Iraq.

Afghanistan was attacked and the Taliban removed from power there because it was a breeding ground of terrorism and it was a country sheltering known terrorists. OBL and co were there. So to neutralize this terrorist breeding ground and to catch OBL Afghanistan was attacked.

This was not democracy-spreading. This was not a neo-con plot. This was war - old style. Country vs. country.

Germany and Japan had their constitution written by their conquerors. It worked out well.
Germans were forbidden to have an army and Nazis were made outlaw. Which was to point. To neutralize them!

Afghanistan should be no different. We were neutralizing a threat, ending a breeding ground of terrorists.
*We* should have written their consititution in whatever way that would have helped achieve the goal of ending the Afghanistan threat.

Don't confuse Afghanistan and Iraq. Two *very* un-related issues.

cheers

W-Y

[TETENAL]

According to this Spiegel-article (German), the man lived in Germany for 9 years, where he converted to Christianity. The German government is protesting against the threatening death penalty.

[Taliesin]

According to the Quran, apostasy is not to be punished by humans, but to be left for God to decide and punish in the hereafter:

003.083
YUSUFALI: Do they seek for other than the Religion of God?-while all creatures in the heavens and on earth have, willing or unwilling, bowed to His Will (Accepted Islam), and to Him shall they all be brought back.
PICKTHAL: Seek they other than the religion of God, when unto Him submitteth whosoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, and unto Him they will be returned.
SHAKIR: Is it then other than God's religion that they seek (to follow), and to Him submits whoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, and to Him shall they be returned.

003.084
YUSUFALI: Say: "We believe in God, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to God do we bow our will (in Islam)."
PICKTHAL: Say (O Muhammad): We believe in God and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was vouchsafed unto Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.
SHAKIR: Say: We believe in God and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and what was given to Musa and Isa and to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.

003.085
YUSUFALI: If anyone desires a religion other than submission to God, never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).
PICKTHAL: And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to God) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.
SHAKIR: And whoever desires a religion other than submission (to God), it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.

003.086
YUSUFALI: How shall God Guide those who reject Faith after they accepted it and bore witness that the Messenger was true and that Clear Signs had come unto them? but God guides not a people unjust.
PICKTHAL: How shall God guide a people who disbelieved after their belief and (after) they bore witness that the messenger is true and after clear proofs (of God's Sovereignty) had come unto them. And God guideth not wrongdoing folk.
SHAKIR: How shall God guide a people who disbelieved after their believing and (after) they had borne witness that the Messenger was true and clear arguments had come to them; and God does not guide the unjust people.

003.087
YUSUFALI: Of such the reward is that on them (rests) the curse of God, of His angels, and of all mankind;-
PICKTHAL: As for such, their guerdon is that on them rests the curse of God and of angels and of men combined.
SHAKIR: (As for) these, their reward is that upon them is the curse of God and the angels and of men, all together.

003.088
YUSUFALI: In that will they dwell; nor will their penalty be lightened, nor respite be (their lot);-
PICKTHAL: They will abide therein. Their doom will not be lightened, neither will they be reprieved;
SHAKIR: Abiding in it; their chastisement shall not be lightened nor shall they be respited.

003.089
YUSUFALI: Except for those that repent (Even) after that, and make amends; for verily God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: Save those who afterward repent and do right. Lo! God is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: Except those who repent after that and amend, then surely God is Forgiving, Merciful.

003.090
YUSUFALI: But those who reject Faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of Faith,- never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray.
PICKTHAL: Lo! those who disbelieve after their (profession of) belief, and afterward grow violent in disbelief: their repentance will not be accepted. And such are those who are astray.
SHAKIR: Surely, those who disbelieve a,fter their believing, then increase in unbelief, their repentance shall not be accepted, and these are they that go astray.

003.091
YUSUFALI: As to those who reject Faith, and die rejecting,- never would be accepted from any such as much gold as the earth contains, though they should offer it for ransom. For such is (in store) a penalty grievous, and they will find no helpers.
PICKTHAL: Lo! those who disbelieve, and die in disbelief, the (whole) earth full of gold would not be accepted from such an one if it were offered as a ransom (for his soul). Theirs will be a painful doom and they will have no helpers.
SHAKIR: Surely, those who disbelieve and die while they are unbelievers, the earth full of gold shall not be accepted from one of them, though he should offer to ransom himself with it, these it is who shall have a painful chastisement, and they shall have no helpers.

and:

004.136
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Believe in God and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth God, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Believe in God and His messenger and the Scripture which He hath revealed unto His messenger, and the Scripture which He revealed aforetime. Whoso disbelieveth in God and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers and the Last Day, he verily hath wandered far astray.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! believe in God and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in God and His angels and His messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.

004.137
YUSUFALI: Those who believe, then reject faith, then believe (again) and (again) reject faith, and go on increasing in unbelief,- God will not forgive them nor guide them on the way.
PICKTHAL: Lo! those who believe, then disbelieve and then (again) believe, then disbelieve, and then increase in disbelief, God will never pardon them, nor will He guide them unto a way.
SHAKIR: Surely (as for) those who believe then disbelieve, again believe and again disbelieve, then increase in disbelief, God will not forgive them nor guide them in the (right) path.

004.138
YUSUFALI: To the Hypocrites give the glad tidings that there is for them (but) a grievous penalty;-
PICKTHAL: Bear unto the hypocrites the tidings that for them there is a painful doom;
SHAKIR: Announce to the hypocrites that they shall have a painful chastisement.

and

016.106
YUSUFALI: Any one who, after accepting faith in God, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from God, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty.
PICKTHAL: Whoso disbelieveth in God after his belief - save him who is forced thereto and whose heart is still content with the Faith - but whoso findeth ease in disbelief: On them is wrath from God. Theirs will be an awful doom.
SHAKIR: He who disbelieves in God after his having believed, not he who is compelled while his heart is at rest on account of faith, but he who opens (his) breast to disbelief-- on these is the wrath of God, and they shall have a grievous chastisement.

016.107
YUSUFALI: This because they love the life of this world better than the Hereafter: and God will not guide those who reject Faith.
PICKTHAL: That is because they have chosen the life of the world rather than the Hereafter, and because God guideth not the disbelieving folk.
SHAKIR: This is because they love this world's life more than the hereafter, and because God does not guide the unbelieving people.

016.108
YUSUFALI: Those are they whose hearts, ears, and eyes God has sealed up, and they take no heed.
PICKTHAL: Such are they whose hearts and ears and eyes God hath sealed. And such are the heedless.
SHAKIR: These are they on whose hearts and their hearing and their eyes God has set a seal, and these are the heedless ones.

016.109
YUSUFALI: Without doubt, in the Hereafter they will perish.
PICKTHAL: Assuredly in the Hereafter they are the losers.
SHAKIR: No doubt that in the hereafter they will be the losers.

All these verses from the Quran are dealing with apostasy from faith to unfaith, ie. either from monotheism to polytheism or from monotheism to atheism.

Neither of these or any other verse of the Quran is calling for any human punishment in this life, but all call to warn these apostastes that in the hereafter they will be punished by God with the hell.


There are no verses from the Quran that deals with the changing of faith from islam to christianity or judaism, since according to the Quran they are all part of islam, if practiced devotionally according to their own holy scriptures. But there are verses that warned prophet Muhammad not to listen to the wishes of the people of the book in Arabia regarding religion, since some of them were deviating, and there are warnings to the followers of prophet Muhammad not to take the arabic people of the book as allies or protectors, because they would then become like them, deviating and liable to all alliances they made.

The deviance the Quran was talking about was the polytheistic influence of Mecca that crept into the religious and secular practice of the arabic jews and christians, that led among the arabic christians for example to the belief of a three-gods-theology with Mary, Jesus and God, and among the arabic jews to the idea to heighten deceased rabbis and prophets to the status of intermediators.

The sharia-law-system is though not based solely on the Quran, but espescially on the hadith-collections, that supposedly preserved the sayings of prophet Muhammad orally and were written down 100-300 years after the prophet died.

As you can already guess I'm regarding the hadith-collections at best as fairy-tales, at worst as a vehicle to introduce anti-quranic messages and rulings...

Taliesin

[moodymonster]

I'd imagine suggesting to them their interpretation of Islam is open to question would get the death penalty also.

If you go back quite a few hundred years in Western society you'll find a similiar mentality.

[olePigeon]

And this is why religion sucks.

[NYCFarmboy]

This is why humans suck.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

And this is why religion sucks.

No, humans suck.

[placebo1969]

Where's von Wrangell when you need him?

So much for tolerance in this part of the Islamic world.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by placebo1969

Where's von Wrangell when you need him?

So much for tolerance in this part of the Islamic world.

Why do you need me?

[placebo1969]

I was hoping you would be here to condemn this.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Why do you need me?

Well, nobody has shouted "racist!" yet in this thread. Perhaps you could do that.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by placebo1969

I was hoping you would be here to condemn this.

And what good would that do? Will you change your opinion on Islam and Muslims if I do?

And Tal has already dealt with this as needed. Nothing to add.




ps. I haven't seen you in the thread about US troops killing 7 women and 3 children. Are you going to condemn that in that thread?

[Y3a]

There really is no point in posting from the Koran, as it's interpreted however is convenient.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by moodymonster

Germany voted in the Nazi party after WW1. What people want, or what they think they want/been told to think they want, isn't always the best thing.

Sadly, we didn't have a right to interfere until Germany started invading our allies. Everyone always likes to talk about how the US stood by while the Nazi party came into power. If the US wants to support to choice of a people in leadership, we can't interfere in overseas governments.

The same is true about Iraq. Think about it. Bush has claimed that most of the population hated Hussain, and they wanted him to leave power. That doesn't make any sense. If a majority of the population wanted a true democracy, they would have simply revolted against Hussain. Hussain would not be able to put down a rebellion if a majority revolted. But they didn't.

What about the massive human loss of life that would have resulted you say? Think about it this way. The Iraqi people right now don't respect their government. The Iraqi's don't cherish democracy because they didn't have to work for it. The US simply rolled in and set up a new government. The Iraqi's don't care if it succeeds or fails, because it's not their sweat and blood that went into creating it. This is why they aren't proud of their government. Meantime, in the US, our government was created in a war we came very close to losing, and by all accounts, we should have lost. We paid a price for our government, and as a result will do everything to protect it. Iraqi's don't care about protecting their government because they didn't pay a price for it.

The entire Iraq war was a mistake. Yeah, Saddam was a horrible guy. The point the Liberals have always been trying to make is that any change in the Iraqi political situation has to come from within, while the conservatives go on about how we put an evil man out of power and how free the Iraqis are. The Iraqis still don't respect freedom because it was given to them for free. They never had to pay for it. The US needs to stop going around handing out democracy for free. The only way a people can really know what democracy is is when they fight for it and pay for it themselves.

[FeLiZeCaT]

Originally Posted by moodymonster

I'd imagine suggesting to them their interpretation of Islam is open to question would get the death penalty also.

If you go back quite a few hundred years in Western society you'll find a similiar mentality.

I do not believe you need to go back so far in time. Look around you, and you'll be bound to find similar thinking.

[FeLiZeCaT]

Originally Posted by Y3a

There really is no point in posting crap from the Koran, as it's interpreted however is convenient by the savages. This is why it's the THIRD WORLD.

See?

[moodymonster]

Originally Posted by FeLiZeCaT

I do not believe you need to go back so far in time. Look around you, and you'll be bound to find similar thinking.

true, I was more referring to the laws of the land though.

[placebo1969]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

And what good would that do? Will you change your opinion on Islam and Muslims if I do?

And Tal has already dealt with this as needed. Nothing to add.

ps. I haven't seen you in the thread about US troops killing 7 women and 3 children. Are you going to condemn that in that thread?

Do you know what my opinion on Islam and Muslims is?

I didn't see the other thread, but just read the BBC article. If the Marines did do what has been accused, then I hope they received the strictest penalty available. There is an investigation ongoing. However, this has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

The topic is about a man who may be executed for being Christian. Oh, the horror.

Step back and see what this looks like. I don't care about what the Koran or Hadiths say about this. Plain and simple, what may happen to him is wrong. But it's okay. If I (or anyone else) dare question Islamic law, teachings, traditions, etc., I am merely ignorant, racist, etc.

I'm kind of disappointed that you seem to have me pegged a certain way when I have never meant to disrespect you or your religion. Although I am not surprised. To me, it seems that anything critical to Islam or Muslims or the Middle East in general is a personal affront to you. It's not.

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by placebo1969

Do you know what my opinion on Islam and Muslims is?

I didn't see the other thread, but just read the BBC article. If the Marines did do what has been accused, then I hope they received the strictest penalty available. There is an investigation ongoing. However, this has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

The topic is about a man who may be executed for being Christian. Oh, the horror.

Step back and see what this looks like. I don't care about what the Koran or Hadiths say about this. Plain and simple, what may happen to him is wrong. But it's okay. If I (or anyone else) dare question Islamic law, teachings, traditions, etc., I am merely ignorant, racist, etc.

I'm kind of disappointed that you seem to have me pegged a certain way when I have never meant to disrespect you or your religion. Although I am not surprised. To me, it seems that anything critical to Islam or Muslims or the Middle East in general is a personal affront to you. It's not.

1. If you don't care what the Holy Quran or Hadiths say about this then why did you need me in this thread to condemn it?

2. You didn't answer my question. Why is it so important for you that I condemn this?

[placebo1969]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

1. If you don't care what the Holy Quran or Hadiths say about this then why did you need me in this thread to condemn it?

2. You didn't answer my question. Why is it so important for you that I condemn this?

1. I think that this situation is important in that it shows the lack of tolerance for other cultures, faiths, etc., in that part of the world that is on par with the Middle Ages. I don't need for you condemn anything. However, you are a very staunch supporter of the Islamic world, even when there are many things wrong with/in it.

2. See my answer above.

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Y3a

There really is no point in posting crap from the Koran..

Keep your tongue in check until you can visit the toilet.

On topic again:

Afghanistan's consitution is partly based on the sharia-law-system, and according to the sharia-law-system, apostasy is indeed, under certain circumstances, punishable by death.

Therein all four legal sunni islamic schools agree upon, since all of the four schools can find backing for it from among the hadith-collections.

On the other hand the afghani constitution is also based on certain human rights regarding freedom of religion...

And there is a discussion going on between moderate, liberal and conservative sunnis even inside the four schools regarding the value and relevance of the hadith-collections, and personally I think that discussion will lead to a reexamination of the hadiths and to the eradication of those hadiths that contradict each other or the Quran, and maybe even to a modern version of the sharia-law-system.

I for one would prefer that the hadiths would be ignored altogether and instead the focus be put upon the Quran itself, but that would be unrealistic, so I'm willing to be content with the second best solution.

Taliesin

[TETENAL]

Oh no! Now the Afghan government is angered about Germany! (Spiegel article in German)

So when a Danish newspaper publishes some Mohammed cartoons, there are world-wide protests by Muslims. But when Germany protests that a person who converted to Christianity is threatened with the death penalty, then the Afghan government is angered about the interference?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

1. If you don't care what the Holy Quran or Hadiths say about this then why did you need me in this thread to condemn it?

2. You didn't answer my question. Why is it so important for you that I condemn this?

Why would you post said other topic, but not think to even come in here and condemn them von?

I mean I even came into your thread and said if it is true, BAD MEN!

This is what, the 3rd post in this thread. You still haven't said anything condemning these actions.

You even brought up another poster not posting in YOUR thread.

The reason why people are watching you von, is because of the hateful barbaric things you HAVE said in the past month.

Your words aren't that different than the actions of these men is the thread.

[moodymonster]

If you think about it, the Taliban wouldn't have been able to do what they did without support from the local populace. So it's not really surprising that this would happen.

Is this also the law in Saudi Arabia? I know they persecute anyone other than their brand of Islam.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Taliesin

Keep your tongue in check until you can visit the toilet.

'Tis funny how the word "toilet" comes to mind when the word "koran" is mentioned, no?

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Oh no! Now the Afghan government is angered about Germany! (Spiegel article in German)

So when a Danish newspaper publishes some Mohammed cartoons, there are world-wide protests by Muslims. But when Germany protests that a person who converted to Christianity is threatened with the death penalty, then the Afghan government is angered about the interference?

Welcome to the new face of fascism.

[moodymonster]

I get the impression the Afghans don't want the Germans to pull out of Afghanistan.

[Wiskedjak]

The most interesting part about this is that it's occurring in Afghanistan

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Y3a

There really is no point in posting crap from the Koran, as it's interpreted however is convenient by the savages. This is why it's the THIRD WORLD.

Nazi halo.

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

The most interesting part about this is that it's occurring in Afghanistan

That shouldn't be much of a surprise: The taliban were a special jihad-sect, but hardly the only one, the northern alliance were also comprised of mujahideens, they merely fought their jihad against the talibans. The pashtuns in general living in the area were following a backward-mixture of Islam and tribal culture, and could well identify and connect with both jihad-groups.

The US merely intervened in that civil-war and helped the northern-alliance-jihadis gain dominance.

Surely the presence of the US-forces and policies has a moderating influence, but currently conservatives are guarding the judiciary, so...

If the US had insisted on keeping out the sharia-law-system out of the constitution, it would have probably generated a new civil-war in which the lines wouldn't be as clear-cut as between the northern alliance and the taliban.

Taliesin

[demograph68]

Dismissed

I give him 10 hours before some nut decides to shoot him.

[Mithras]

Originally Posted by IonCable

ah, Islam the religon of Peace, Love and Tolerance.
NOT

Hey, the only reason Christianity has largely abandoned the same tactics is thanks to a bunch of deist/agnostic/atheist geniuses who (quite literally) dragged Europe out of the Dark Ages in the era of the Enlightenment. What the Islamic world needs is more unbelievers.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Mithras

Hey, the only reason Christianity has largely abandoned the same tactics is thanks to a bunch of Protestants who (quite literally) dragged Europe out of the Dark Ages in the era of the Enlightenment. What the Islamic world needs is more Protestants.

Fixed.

On topic: This whole "mental illness" dismissal was a bit of a cop out. Oh well, at least we'll get to say "islam allows its citizens to murder mentally ill people" when one of the cretins guns him down in the street.

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

Nazi halo.

hey, good catch phrase.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Mithras

Hey, the only reason Christianity has largely abandoned the same tactics is thanks to a bunch of deist/agnostic/atheist geniuses who (quite literally) dragged Europe out of the Dark Ages in the era of the Enlightenment. What the Islamic world needs is more unbelievers.

It actually has more to do with Jesus's word. But ok.

[yakkiebah]

Still no outrage, no mass demonstrations, nothing...

But wait, there is a peacefull protest! It's only one but atleast it's something

KABUL, Afghanistan -- Hundreds in the north peacefully protested Monday the planned release of an Afghan man who faced the death penalty for converting from Islam to Christianity, demanding that he be hanged, while the government tried to figure out a way to free him safely.
article

[vmarks]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060328/...istian_convert

KABUL, Afghanistan - An Afghan man who had faced the death penalty for converting from Islam to Christianity quickly vanished Tuesday after he was released from prison, apparently out of fear for his life with Muslim clerics still demanding his death....

On Monday, hundreds of clerics, students and others chanting "Death to Christians!" marched through the northern Afghan city of Mazar-e-Sharif to protest the court decision Sunday to dismiss the case. Several Muslim clerics threatened to incite Afghans to kill Rahman if he is freed, saying that he is clearly guilty of apostasy and deserves to die.

"Abdul Rahman must be killed. Islam demands it," said senior Cleric Faiez Mohammed, from the nearby northern city of Kunduz. "The Christian foreigners occupying Afghanistan are attacking our religion."

[vmarks]

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...1611129109.jpg

Afghans rally during a demonstration in the northern city of Mazar-i-Shariff, Afghanistan March 27, 2006. In the first protest over the case of Afghan man, Abdur Rahman who converted from Islam to Christianity, several hundred people led by clerics demonstrated in Mazar-i-Shariff, demanding Rahman be tried under Islamic law. REUTERS/Tahir Qadiry

[Kevin]

What people don't realize is, it's just not the Christians and Jews they will muder. They hate atheists and gays as well.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Kevin

What people don't realize is, it's just not the Christians and Jews they will muder. They hate atheists and gays as well.

...and Sikhs and Hindus and Buddhists and Agnostics and Mormons and Taoists. And probably themselves too.


If it moves, hate it! If it doesn't move, hate it anyways just in case it might decide to move at some point in the future. AIIIEEEEEEEE!!!!

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by Doofy

Fixed.

It was competition. Kindof like Airbus vs Boeing. Catholicism needed a wake-up call and Protestants gave them that in form of reformations and political pressure.

There was nothing wrong with the religion, it hasn't changed. The balance of power has shifted from church to state and the Church has found itself (its perhaps original part) as a spiritual guide, instead of a ruler.

Perhaps we'd still be in the dark ages if it wasn't for Martin Luther, but I don't concern myself so much. Too much "coulda, woulda, shoulda". We have what we have.

I am of course not forgetting your point Doofy, and I'll reiterate it: It wasn't those without belief that brought Europe out of the dark ages, but very seriously religious people who wanted change and honesty from the Church. Honor, grace and guidance.

cheers

W-Y

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

It was competition. Kindof like Airbus vs Boeing.

I know, I know. Just playin' with ya.