[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

Actually, they do. In Germany citizenship is by the blood, in the US citizenship is by the land. What this means is that there is a huge second generation Turkish population in Germany who have little if any rights and are very much second class citizens.
Imagine being born in Germany yet having no German passport and little chance of acquiring one. Imagine living in Germany your entire life without the right to vote. You have no voice, yet you're constantly asked to integrate into society.

If you're a Chinese British citizen, you're not allowed to live in Britain.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

I encountered an extraordinary amount of blatant and frank racism when I lived in Germany. To an American it is quite shocking. Openly racist comments and attitudes were bandied about in a way that would not be tolerated in polite society in the US. But I also encountered a lot of denial similar to yours. Somehow it seems easy to pretend that racism is only a problem that other people have.

You're forgetting that Europe, and especially Germany and the UK, is far far less politically correct than the US. Statements that are unacceptable in the US and Canada are not a problem over there. As a German living in the UK I would have had ample opportunity to get upset about racist comments had I taken them seriously. However, the intention wasn't to cause injury but to express inclusion, weird as that may sound. You know, the UK custom of laughing about one's self.

Over here similar sentiments might not be openly aired, but they certainly do exist.

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

And any country that casually sells confections called "Negerkuesse" clearly hasn't fully confronted its own racism.

That went out aeons ago and was never used as a racist expression. Insensitive by today's standards of course, but racist never. The word 'Neger' was simply the accepted expression to describe a black man. There was no negative value attached to the word in itself.

The sweet was simply known as 'black man's kiss'.

[Monique]

Britain is different that unless you were born there, have a British spouse, or grandparents or parents that are British, you have no prayer in hell of entering that country. Contrary to France that accepts Algerian citizens and give them a citizenship.
Contrary to some practices in Germany that accept economical refugees (although I am wondering if it is still true).

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

Actually, they do. In Germany citizenship is by the blood, in the US citizenship is by the land. What this means is that there is a huge second generation Turkish population in Germany who have little if any rights and are very much second class citizens.
Imagine being born in Germany yet having no German passport and little chance of acquiring one. Imagine living in Germany your entire life without the right to vote. You have no voice, yet you're constantly asked to integrate into society.

Except that what you say is NOT true.

If you are born in Germany and lived there for a good portion of your life, you are eligable for German citizenship. Same if you lived in Germany for 15 years.

-t

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by mrcolton

Germany has one of the most evil histories in the history of human kind. I still don't understand how ANY nation trusts these savages that have cost the world millions upon miollions of lives because of their intense hate and war mentality. Sickening nation!

Yeah, nice try. Wanna get banned again ?

-t

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

That went out aeons ago and was never used as a racist expression. Insensitive by today's standards of course, but racist never. The word 'Neger' was simply the accepted expression to describe a black man. There was no negative value attached to the word in itself.

The sweet was simply known as 'black man's kiss'.

Thanks, Mastrap.

connotation of Neger != connotation of Negro

Only after the influence of the Anglo-American world became greater in Germany, suddenly Neger became derogative, because people knew the derogative English "negro".
As sad as it is, but the US made the word Neger get a negative connotation in Germany, although it traditionally was not seen as that.

-t

[analogika]

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

Except that what you say is NOT true.

If you are born in Germany and lived there for a good portion of your life, you are eligable for German citizenship. Same if you lived in Germany for 15 years.

-t

If one of the parents was a legal resident here for at least eight years, the child is automatically a German citizen.


What Mastrap wrote *used to* be true.

IIRC, it was finally changed in 2000.




Simey, "Negerküsse" is still widely used to refer to what is more-PC-called "Schokoküsse". It was never a racist term - except that the word "Neger" stems from a time when that was what black people were called, and when racism was the socially acceptable norm. "Neger" today is a generally derogatory when referring to a black person, but some older people still use the term simply because that's what they've always said, not because they're racist or ever were.

Compare usage of "Negro" in the States becoming politically-correctly replaced by "African American".

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

Only after the influence of the Anglo-American world became greater in Germany, suddenly Neger became derogative, because people knew the derogative English "negro".
As sad as it is, but the US made the word Neger get a negative connotation in Germany, although it traditionally was not seen as that.

The same is true of "Negro."

[Monique]

That n..r word was never used for describing your love for African American, it was used to put them down and describing them as subhuman, which they are not. And the people using those terms are racist whatever the color of their skin.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

The same is true of "Negro."

Yes, true, but not for nigger ! Should have made that clear.

-t

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Monique

That n..r word was never used for describing your love for African American, it was used to put them down and describing them as subhuman, which they are not. And the people using those terms are racist whatever the color of their skin.

Nobody mentioned the English word "nigger"!?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

You're forgetting that Europe, and especially Germany and the UK, is far far less politically correct than the US.

I'd hate to think what the US is like then. I thought we were about as PC as it gets.

Originally Posted by Mastrap

As a German living in the UK I would have had ample opportunity to get upset about racist comments had I taken them seriously. However, the intention wasn't to cause injury but to express inclusion, weird as that may sound. You know, the UK custom of laughing about one's self.

Slight correction in that you're mistaking nationality for race. But yep, the UK ribbing of Germans is pretty much exactly the same as Manchester's ribbing of Liverpool - friendly rivalry. We love all y'all.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Monique

Britain is different that unless you were born there, have a British spouse, or grandparents or parents that are British, you have no prayer in hell of entering that country.

Guffaw. Get yourself to France, get a train to London, disappear. Worked for 2,000,000 plus so far.

Why the heck you'd want to get into Britain when half the population are desperately seeking a way to get out is beyond me though.

[Rolling Bones]

Originally Posted by mrcolton

Germany has one of the most evil histories in the history of human kind. I still don't understand how ANY nation trusts these savages that have cost the world millions upon miollions of lives because of their intense hate and war mentality. Sickening nation!

You obviously flunked history.

Americans hallocaustorised 20,000,000 Native Americans as they marched west. As for war mentality, the U.S. has been in a perpetual state of war since its' creation. Sickening nation!

Stalin's in there for 24,000,000.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by analogika

If one of the parents was a legal resident here for at least eight years, the child is automatically a German citizen.


What Mastrap wrote *used to* be true.

IIRC, it was finally changed in 2000.

Sorry, I didn't know that. I left Germany in 1989 and haven't really been back for any extended period of time since then.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

You're forgetting that Europe, and especially Germany and the UK, is far far less politically correct than the US. Statements that are unacceptable in the US and Canada are not a problem over there.

Yes, that was my point. Racists are often unaware of their racism. It is certainly not a good sign when they feel so comfortable expressing their sentiments that they don't even realize they could be offensive. I have only encountered this in two places. One is in Germany, the other is when I lived in the deep south. It's very similar.

What we seem to be getting here is essentially denial. Germans are denying that they have a race problem, and somehow that denial and insensitivity is proof that they don't have a problem?

The bottom line is, as you suggest, the US, Britain and Canada are much further along than Germany simply because Germans are less sensitive to their own attitudes. You can't solve a problem if you aren't even aware of it. And still less so if you tell yourself (quite unjustifiably) that everyone else has it, but you do not.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally Posted by analogika

Simey, "Negerküsse" is still widely used to refer to what is more-PC-called "Schokoküsse". It was never a racist term - except that the word "Neger" stems from a time when that was what black people were called, and when racism was the socially acceptable norm. "Neger" today is a generally derogatory when referring to a black person, but some older people still use the term simply because that's what they've always said, not because they're racist or ever were.

Compare usage of "Negro" in the States becoming politically-correctly replaced by "African American".

Again, more denial of the reality. Those Germans you were making excuses for weren't aware of the extent of their racism. That doesn't make it not racist. And the fact that such things were taken for granted and not really thought about also doesn't make it not racist. The same could be said for the gollywog symbol used by Robinson's in the UK. It is clearly racist, but old (which is why they got a dispensation).

Again, you seem to be equating a lack of introspection for a lack of racism. I think what you don't realize or understand is that most racists honestly don't think they are bad people and honestly don't mean to hurt. So the fact that something is a "socially acceptable norm" isn't an excuse. In fact, this simply indicates what I was saying in the first place. A racist socially acceptable norm is a real problem. The first step is to acknowledge that problem. The second is to change the norm so that racism is no longer socially acceptable.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

Yes, that was my point. Racists are often unaware of their racism. It is certainly not a good sign when they feel so comfortable expressing their sentiments that they don't even realize they could be offensive. I have only encountered this in two places. One is in Germany, the other is when I lived in the deep south. It's very similar.

What we seem to be getting here is essentially denial. Germans are denying that they have a race problem, and somehow that denial and insensitivity is proof that they don't have a problem?

The bottom line is, as you suggest, the US, Britain and Canada are much further along than Germany simply because Germans are less sensitive to their own attitudes. You can't solve a problem if you aren't even aware of it. And still less so if you tell yourself (quite unjustifiably) that everyone else has it, but you do not.

You appear to be hellbent to find racism where there isn't any. And when this is pointed out to you there's denial? Come on Simey.

Of course there is racism in Germany, as there is in the UK or in Canada or in the US, but the example you chose (Negerkuss) to illustrate that point simply doesn't hold water. Again, the word 'Neger' is free from ulterior or racist baggage, it was simply a word for 'black person'.

Your accusation that there is more racism in Germany than in the UK is debatable. Leave the metropolis of London and enter any pub in small town Britain and you'll find attitudes that are identical to those you'll find in small town Bavaria. Go and visit Berlin and you'll find a society that is embracing multi culturalism with huge enthusiasm.

I am hugely aware that my move to Canada has been made as smooth as it has been because I am white, educated and middle class. Talk to Asians and Africans coming to Canada, then you'll learn about the realities of racism.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

Again, you seem to be equating a lack of introspection for a lack of racism. I think what you don't realize or understand is that most racists honestly don't think they are bad people and honestly don't mean to hurt. So the fact that something is a "socially acceptable norm" isn't an excuse. In fact, this simply indicates what I was saying in the first place. A racist socially acceptable norm is a real problem. The first step is to acknowledge that problem. The second is to change the norm so that racism is no longer socially acceptable.

Didn't I just say that that is what's happened?

[Kr0nos]

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

Again, more denial of the reality. Those Germans you were making excuses for weren't aware of the extent of their racism.

And this is exactly why political correctness fails. Because racism is all about intent!

That's why black people who call each others "nigger" aren't racist.

And that's the main difference between "racism" in the US and Europe as well. In Europe people might seem crude and culturally insensitive at times, but integration (on the whole) seems to work better than in the US (yes, there are the "Banlieus" in Paris and other "hot spots", – but far fewer ghettos and racial segregation. Especially in the middle, and working class).

How many times have I heared somebody say "African American", and mutter "Nigger" under their breath. PC is nothing but a facade (when the actual devides run along income lines).

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

You appear to be hellbent to find racism where there isn't any.

Your accusation that there is more racism in Germany than in the UK is debatable. Leave the metropolis of London and enter any pub in small town Britain and you'll find attitudes that are identical to those you'll find in small town Bavaria.

Sorry Mas but you're doing the exact same thing here. It's not racism in those small-town pubs (at least the ones here which I've been to) - it's a general dislike of all outsiders/newbies. I go into a pub in the next town over (four miles away) and they'll look at me like I've got three heads, despite my being white and their being white. So it ain't racism.

[badidea]

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

Again, more denial of the reality. Those Germans you were making excuses for weren't aware of the extent of their racism. That doesn't make it not racist. And the fact that such things were taken for granted and not really thought about also doesn't make it not racist.

Yes it does make it NOT racist!

I'll give you an example which is much worse than "Negerkuss": "Judenfurz" (Jewfart)

This is the word we used as children for small firecrackers.
It's unbelievable that this word made it's way until the 70ties and even today I still have problems not using this word because that's what I learned what those little firecrackers were called!
As a child I had no idea at all what I was saying - I was so unaware about it that I actually said "Judofurz" (Judofart) because I didn't ever think about the meaning of the word!

Do you think I was a 5 year old racist??


The existence of this word even 30years after the war could be a sign of hidden racism though - not the usage of the word itself!!

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally Posted by badidea

Yes it does make it NOT racist!

I'll give you an example which is much worse than "Negerkuss": "Judenfurz" (Jewfart)

This is the word we used as children for small firecrackers.
It's unbelievable that this word made it's way until the 70ties and even today I still have problems not using this word because that's what I learned what those little firecrackers were called!
As a child I had no idea at all what I was saying - I was so unaware about it that I actually said "Judofurz" (Judofart) because I didn't ever think about the meaning of the word!

Do you think I was a 5 year old racist??


The existence of this word even 30years after the war could be a sign of hidden racism though - not the usage of the word itself!!

Yes. Maybe unconciously so, but racist.

I had a woodwork teacher who grew up in Germany in the 1930s. He was a Hitlerjugend. He is now deeply ashamed that he participated in minor pogroms against Jews -- chasing them in the streets, taunting them, and so on. At the time, he thought nothing of doing that. It was socially accepted. He certainly didn't think he was bad for doing it -- at the time. His perspective now is much different.

Or similarly, when I was a child (say, 5) in England, the village kids (including me) were full of stories about Gypsies. (Romany occasionally travelled through the area) At the time, I thought that was fine. I'm not proud of those racist attitudes now, and the fact that I didn't realize what I was saying at the time does not make what I said not racist.

The issue is, a racist can be completely without malice. That is what happens when racism is so accepted it doesn't carry a social stigma. If Germans here are representative, then you haven't learned that yet.

And by the way, that is not political correctness. It's just being aware of yourself.

[badidea]

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

Yes. Maybe unconciously so, but racist.

I had a woodwork teacher who grew up in Germany in the 1930s. He was a Hitlerjugend. He is now deeply ashamed that he participated in minor pogroms against Jews -- chasing them in the streets, taunting them, and so on. At the time, he thought nothing of doing that. It was socially accepted. He certainly didn't think he was bad for doing it -- at the time. His perspective now is much different.

Or similarly, when I was a child (say, 5) in England, the village kids (including me) were full of stories about Gypsies. (Romany occasionally travelled through the area) At the time, I thought that was fine. I'm not proud of those racist attitudes now, and the fact that I didn't realize what I was saying at the time does not make what I said not racist.

The issue is, a racist can be completely without malice. That is what happens when racism is so accepted it doesn't carry a social stigma. If Germans here are representative, then you haven't learned that yet.

And by the way, that is not political correctness. It's just being aware of yourself.

Yes and No!

I agree that a racist can be completely without malice!
This is true with both your examples!

The cases I was talking about are in my opinion different though!
"Negerkuss" and "Judenfurz" were nothing else than names without meaning when I was a child. No connection to black people and jews at all! Just names for candy and firecrackers!

Just think about it when you want to eat a brownie - you wouldn't think of saying something racist because it's a little cake you are talking about!
Then go up to some latin guy and say "Brownie" to him - suddenly the word can have a completely different meaning!

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally Posted by badidea

The cases I was talking about are in my opinion different though!
"Negerkuss" and "Judenfurz" were nothing else than names without meaning when I was a child. No connection to black people and jews at all! Just names for candy and firecrackers!

Just think about it when you want to eat a brownie - you wouldn't think of saying something racist because it's a little cake you are talking about!
Then go up to some latin guy and say "Brownie" to him - suddenly the word can have a completely different meaning!

No, that isn't really accurate. Ask yourself how a bulbous brown cookie got the name Negerkuss in the first place. It's not because of any connection to black people themselves. It got that name because of a racist stereotype about what black people look like. The fact that people just accept that without thinking about it doesn't alter the fact that the name is offensive.

The same goes for your firecrackers. You said yourself earlier, you wouldn't call them that today. That's my point. You are more sensitive to these issues, which is a good thing. But my point is that the fact that a society is insentive to its racism does not prove in any way that it isn't racist. At best, it just means it is unconciously racist. That is still a problem because overcoming racism requires conscious effort.

In addition, the example you give of children absorbing racist terminology and attitudes without thinking about it or questioning them is precisely why stigmatizing racism isn't mere political correctness. When you make the use of a term unacceptable, you do more than just mask a problem. You also prevent some of its transmission to new generations. Over time, that diminishes the attitudes themselves, because racism is largely learned behavior.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

No, that isn't really accurate. Ask yourself how a bulbous brown cookie got the name Negerkuss in the first place. It's not because of any connection to black people themselves. It got that name because of a racist stereotype about what black people look like. The fact that people just accept that without thinking about it doesn't alter the fact that the name is offensive.

a) The name IS being phased out in favor of "Schokokuss".

b) The bulbous brown sugar foam thing didn't get it's name because it LOOKS like a black guy. How the hell would you think that? It got its name because 1) it's dark brown (and I doubt that claiming that black people have dark brown skin is a "racist stereotype about what black people look like", no matter how much you want to paint Germans as racists), and 2) it's sweet, like a kiss (as in the French "baiser", which is also used to describe a kind of sugar confectionary).

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally Posted by analogika

a) The name IS being phased out in favor of "Schokokuss".

b) The bulbous brown sugar foam thing didn't get it's name because it LOOKS like a black guy. How the hell would you think that? It got its name because 1) it's dark brown (and I doubt that claiming that black people have dark brown skin is a "racist stereotype about what black people look like", no matter how much you want to paint Germans as racists), and 2) it's sweet, like a kiss (as in the French "baiser", which is also used to describe a kind of sugar confectionary).

Notice that a and b are not consistent. If it is so inoffensive, why phase it out?

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

Notice that a and b are not consistent. If it is so inoffensive, why phase it out?

Because the word 'Neger' is by now considered to be old fashioned and politically sensitive, much like the word 'negro' in the UK or the US. The main reason for this is that it sounds very much like 'nigger'.
But it cannot be emphasized enough, even though you probably won't believe it, that the original meaning of the word was never racist.

Racism is all about 'you are inferior to me because of the colour of your skin' (I'm aware that I am simplifying) and the word 'Neger' never had that connotation. My grandfather, for example, would call a black man 'Neger' without any malice or any feeling of superiority.

And I've got to say, your continued attempts to portray Germany as a country that has more than it's fair share of racism, especially when compared to the US or the UK, are beginning to get old. If anything, Germans are ultra aware of their history and the consequences of institutionalized racism and anti-Semitism. I've yet to see the same general awareness about the holocaust of the native North American people anywhere in the US.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

Because the word 'Neger' is by now considered to be old fashioned and politically sensitive, much like the word 'negro' in the UK or the US. The main reason for this is that it sounds very much like 'nigger'.
But it cannot be emphasized enough, even though you probably won't believe it, that the original meaning of the word was never racist.

Racism is all about 'you are inferior to me because of the colour of your skin' (I'm aware that I am simplifying) and the word 'Neger' never had that connotation. My grandfather, for example, would call a black man 'Neger' without any malice or any feeling of superiority.

And I've got to say, your continued attempts to portray Germany as a country that has more than it's fair share of racism, especially when compared to the US or the UK, are beginning to get old. If anything, Germans are ultra aware of their history and the consequences of institutionalized racism and anti-Semitism. I've yet to see the same general awareness about the holocaust of the native North American people anywhere in the US.

That is just mischaracterizing what I said. I did NOT say that Germany is more racist than the US. I reacted to the comments that said that Germany does not suffer from racism as does the US. That is simply blind.

Like Germany, the US has its own history of racism, and its own continuing race problem. I do think that certain countries (e.g. the US, Canada, Australia, the UK) who have a history of race problems, whether through relations with their indiginous people, empire, or slavery, have made a concious effort to confront racism. The increased sensitivities to the racism that was socially accepted in the past is part of that. I disagree with those who equate concern with racism with racism, and those who think that ignoring the continuing existence of racism is a sign that racism has been overcome. I think that is an attitude of denial.

As you say (and I agree), Germany has also made a massive conscious effort to deal with its past history of racism. But unfortunately, I detect a strong element of complacency, and defensiveness. Of course Germany is not the same today as the country of the Holocaust -- any more than the US is the same today as the country of slavery, or Jim Crow. But to pretend that Germany today is free of racism is simply self-congratulatory nonsense.

I am also quite shocked at the level of defensiveness about this exhibited by the Germans on this board. You collectively seem to have no reluctance to point out your impressions (whether informed or not) about the US. But you simply seem to be incapable of accepting any criticism in return.

And yet, dispite the rationalizations that have been presented about Germany being "not politically correct" and therefore about how the casual and widespread use of racial epithets and stereotypes is really a sign of how Germany is not at all racist, the story is not consistent. Every one of you has admitted that the things I have pointed to are things that you would not personally say and are not personally comfortable with. As several of you have pointed out, these things are becoming less sociallly accepted for exactly the reason (whether you will admit it or not) that I pointed out. You are actually implicitly agreeing with me, you just don't like to admit it. That is defensiveness, pure and simple.

So in sum, I am not saying that Germany is more racist than the US. I am shocked at the complacency of some Germans who think that the way to minimize their own race issues is to pretend that the problem is uniquely American, or uniquely the problem of your gradparents. A little less defensiveness, and a little more self-awareness and introspection would go a long way.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

So in sum, I am not saying that Germany is more racist than the US. I am shocked at the complacency of some Germans who think that the way to minimize their own race issues is to pretend that the problem is uniquely American, or uniquely the problem of your gradparents. A little less defensiveness, and a little more self-awareness and introspection would go a long way.

You are just gonna have to accept that American is the GREAT SATAN, and the cause of all bad things.

Not feeling good about yourself today? Bash Americans!

Feeling a little insecure? Bash Americans!

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

That is just mischaracterizing what I said. I did NOT say that Germany is more racist than the US.

I must have misread:

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

Germany exhibits that same tendency but magnified. People say racist things not just because they are racist, but also because they assume it is OK to be racist. In America, there are racists to be sure. But it is much less acceptable to be seen to be a racist.

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

I encountered an extraordinary amount of blatant and frank racism when I lived in Germany. To an American it is quite shocking. Openly racist comments and attitudes were bandied about in a way that would not be tolerated in polite society in the US.

Nobody on this board, German or otherwise, says that Germany hasn't got a problem with racism. The defensiveness is simply a result of the kind of accusations I quoted above. This is not, as far as I am concerned, a pissing contest on which country is best, or worst for that matter.

Both you and I have lived in Germany, the UK and North America. I can't honestly say that I have ever seen a difference between the levels of racism in Germany and the UK. In North America, in my personal experience, racism tends to be hidden behind a facade of political correctness. Hidden, but there nonetheless.

[Spliffdaddy]

Get over it. Germany is racist.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Germany is racist.

Americans are fat.


Both of the above statements have equal value.

[badidea]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

Americans are fat.

...und Bayern wird wieder Meister!!!

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

And unlike Germany, the US at large has yet to deal with slavery and almost extinction of the native Americans.

-t

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

I don't mean slavery directly, but with the outcomes.
And trust me, the US is NOT doen dealing with this.

-t

And from there, as usual, it went downhill.

My position isn't that the US is less racist than Germany. I don't know how anyone could make such a generalization. But I do think based on experience that public expressions of racism are more accepted than is generally the case in the US or UK, and I pointed out that the other place I have lived where I have observed a similar confidence in expressing bigotries in in the deep south of the US. The two strike me as rather similar, and shocking and not at all a sign of a society that has moved beyond racism. That isn't saying that the US is less racist, only pointing out that racism is evident in Germany and not magically better than in the US and it is perfecly evident that this is so to anyone not simply interested in scoring nationalist points. Thus, denial is misplaced.

And since you agree with me that in fact racism is as prevalent in Germany as it is in the US (though perhaps not always manifested in precisely the same ways), we can put away the silly defensiveness and chest beating nationalism. We can also agree that many of the arguments put forward here were completely illogical. For example, claiming that the use of racist slurs and stereotypes isn't racist, that children are incapable of racism, or that insensitivity to racism is somehow a sign of not being racist. All while admitting that the things I pointed out wouldn't be said by any of the people arguing here because they are so insensitive. I realise that people reacting defensively make dumb arguments, but this thread has been one of the dumber ones.

Maybe you can set them a little more straight -- especially, since like me, you have some actual experience living in more than one country and can therefore observe the similarities, and note the differences.

[MallyMal]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

In North America, in my personal experience, racism tends to be hidden behind a facade of political correctness. Hidden, but there nonetheless.

I tend to believe this in my experience.

On another note...This may sound funny but one of the things I found refreshing about the UK was that the media was willing to show white people committing crime and getting arrested. That seems to be a rarity here on a lot of US media outlets unless it is a high profile case.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

Maybe you can set them a little more straight -- especially, since like me, you have some actual experience living in more than one country and can therefore observe the similarities, and note the differences.

Well, I'm not here on a mission to set people straight.
And of course, all I'm saying is from a personal standpoint.

However, I did not only live here (US) and there (Germany), but my family is of mixed racial background, so I do claim to see a little beyond just ONE side.

-t

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by MallyMal

I tend to believe this in my experience.

On another note...This may sound funny but one of the things I found refreshing about the UK was that the media was willing to show white people committing crime and getting arrested. That seems to be a rarity here on a lot of US media outlets unless it is a high profile case.

You got to be kidding.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Kevin

You got to be kidding.

Yeah, I couldn't believe that part about the UK either. For sure white people don't commit crimes. We all know that

-t

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

Well, I'm not here on a mission to set people straight.
And of course, all I'm saying is from a personal standpoint.

However, I did not only live here (US) and there (Germany), but my family is of mixed racial background, so I do claim to see a little beyond just ONE side.

-t

Of course you are stating your own position. It's just that it was wrong and one sided. Both countries have their race problems, which is all I was saying.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

Yeah, I couldn't believe that part about the UK either. For sure white people don't commit crimes. We all know that

-t

I was speaking about "That seems to be a rarity here on a lot of US media outlets unless it is a high profile case."

Hardly the case.

[Mithras]

By the way, 'negro' is still the ordinary term in Central and South America for a black person.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally Posted by Mithras

By the way, 'negro' is still the ordinary term in Central and South America for a black person.

And that proves what, exactly?

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

And that proves what, exactly?

That words are value neutral. It is the intent that makes them offensive.

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

Of course you are stating your own position. It's just that it was wrong and one sided. Both countries have their race problems, which is all I was saying.

Unfortunately, as quoted above, that was not what you were saying. What you were saying is that, in Germany, you encountered a degree of racism that you claimed you'd never encounter 'in polite society' in the US. I think we have agreed by now that this is hardly the case and that all western countries have to fight their own battles when it comes to racism.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

That words are value neutral. It is the intent that makes them offensive.

Bearing in mind that in most latin American countries, there is considerable racial stratification, no, it proves nothing of the sort.

Race can have different variations, that is certainly the case. For example, Haitian regard Dominicans with considerable disdain and several Haitians have told me that they are surprised when they come to the US and are told that they are "black." Haitians regard Dominicans as black (which is much resented by Dominicans).

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

Unfortunately, as quoted above, that was not what you were saying. What you were saying is that, in Germany, you encountered a degree of racism that you claimed you'd never encounter 'in polite society' in the US. I think we have agreed by now that this is hardly the case and that all western countries have to fight their own battles when it comes to racism.

You are misstating what I said. I said that I encountered frank and public expressions of racism that would be shocking and unacceptable in polite society in the US. There is a difference. And I only pointed that out to refute the absurd statement that Germany does not have racism as the US undoubtedly has.

That being so, I also pointed out that the only other place I had encountered the same thing is in the deep south in the US among whites when they think there are no blacks present. It's the same assumption going on -- that everyone present shares the attitudes. It's surprising when I am not talking about thugs or neo-nazis, but ordinary "decent" people.

That much is very similar. The difference is that in the US (and also, I would say, in the UK), those same people would not feel free to make such comments in polite society as they seem to be in Germany. Thus I conclude that racism may be just as prevalent, but that the public stigma of being perceived to be a racist is less.

In any case, my principal interest isn't in making sociological comparisons of such subtlety and gradation. I am mainly rejecting the ridiculous idea that Germany has conquered its racial issues. I hope we have at least established that such self-congratulatory and complacent nonsense is wrong. You cannot deal with racism if you pretend it doesn't exist.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Mastrap

Americans are fat.


Both of the above statements have equal value.

That value being truth?

[Spliff]

Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey

The bottom line is, as you suggest, the US, Britain and Canada are much further along than Germany simply because Germans are less sensitive to their own attitudes. You can't solve a problem if you aren't even aware of it. And still less so if you tell yourself (quite unjustifiably) that everyone else has it, but you do not.

I never encountered many racist attitudes in the UK beyond the usual bitching about Indians. Lots of racism in Canada towards native Indians (First Nations) and Asians, particularly the wealthy ones from Hong Kong.

But the most blatant and prevalent racist attitudes I've ever encountered was in Ireland. Yikes! Frequent references to blacks as "niggers." One Irishmen then apologized to me and said, "Oh right, you call them blacks over in America."

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally Posted by Spliff

I never encountered many racist attitudes in the UK beyond the usual bitching about Indians. Lots of racism in Canada towards native Indians (First Nations) and Asians, particularly the wealthy ones from Hong Kong.

But the most blatant and prevalent racist attitudes I've ever encountered was in Ireland. Yikes! Frequent references to blacks as "niggers." One Irishmen then apologized to me and said, "Oh right, you call them blacks over in America."

I don't know Ireland, so I can't comment about that. I did work with a South Asian woman a few years ago who said she encountered significant racism every time she went to the UK. She said that for her personally, it was much worse than anything she encountered in the US. I was kind of surprised by that because her accent was obviously American, and obviously highly educated (she's a lawyer). I wouldn't have expected her to trigger local attitudes, but she said otherwise.

She did make the comment that she thought some of the difference between the US and UK with respect to South Asians is that the South Asians who emigrated from India to the US tend to be much more educated than South Asians who emigrated from India to the UK. You are less likely to be a victim of racism if you are perceived as being a highly educated and well to do professional. But in the UK she said she was treated pretty poorly despite her background.

Anyway, this is second hand. But I do I think this comes back to my comment that racism has many local permutations and different countries have different minorities who are the target. Hence, Germans have to ask themselves how they treat their Turkish minority, French, their North African minorities, British their South Asian (what they call simply "Asian"), and so on. Not to be cute about it, but racism isn't a black and white subject dispite the fact that tends to be the focus in the US because of our history and demographics.