[analogika]

Originally Posted by pIxIe

Not a debate, but note taking involves a lot of sketches... scribbling around and jotting points all over the page. Something impractical otherwise....

Point taken.

Originally Posted by pIxIe

So Mac & iPod it is.. Thank you.

No worries.

[rambo47]

For years we've been buying Apple hardware to run Mac OSX. That's why we're Mac users. We could have bought a cheaper pc anytime we wanted and begun running WinXP. The few Mac users who get their first exposure to XP via Boot Camp and then switch will be more than made up for by Windows users who decide to buy a MacBook or MacMini to try OSX. I'm betting more of those types will convert to Mac users than current Mac users going to XP. More Mac users will translate to more Mac software. And finally we can bury that steaming dung heap called Virtual PC.

[gadger]

Originally Posted by iDoctor

I guess you better keep your post count low !

I agree... my quality vs your quantity...

[spindler]

Let's use the laws of supply and demand to figure out what will happen to the development of OS X software now that Windows is available.

For applications like Word or Photoshop, the Mac user will seek out the Mac software version, because they enjoy the GUI. A company can't decide to not make a version of their software for OS X because then the Mac user, preferring the Mac environment, will simply buy a different product that does use the Mac GUI. The only exception could be things like Microsoft Word, where the user NEEDS it, so the user would probably HAVE TO buy the Windows version since their is no other option.

Now, for games, there is a big difference. Let's say that Total Destruction X come out on Windows before the planned Mac version. For the people really into gaming, they will buy the Windows version to play it, therefore lowering the audience for the Mac version that comes out a year later. So the question is what percentage of Mac users are casual enough to not bother with Windows versions and what percentage are hardcore enough to buy the Windows version. Imagine if you could have played Windows DOOM on the Mac. It would have greatly lowered the audience for when the Mac version comes out, giving a disincentive to develop it.

Now look at adding features to programs. If you can just open up Windows Internet Explorer to see a site that only works well in Windows, it lowers the incentive for web sites to make themselves non-IE compatible. A Mac user isn't going to just skip the banking site they want to look at, if they have a $50 program to run Windows and they know they don't have to worry about incompatibility anymore.

So everytime a Mac users says "I'll just fire up the Windows version of the program to use that one feature the Mac version doesn't have." it lowers the incentive for developers to create a Mac version quickly. Before it was a differentiating factor between two Mac programs, that they, say, supported .AVI files. But now that you can use Windows Media Player natively there will probably be less Mac users willing to buy a .AVI player for the Mac.

[mac1896]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I think this whole bootcamp thing is showing who the true zealots are.

CHOICE is good.

Sorry Kevin....


You were PREDESTINED to use a Mac, and the Mac was PREDESTINED to eventually run Windows...............

lol

The other Kevin

[analogika]

Originally Posted by spindler

The only exception could be things like Microsoft Word, where the user NEEDS it, so the user would probably HAVE TO buy the Windows version since their is no other option.

Microsoft has officially COMMITTED to developing Office for Mac OS X for at least another five years.

Originally Posted by spindler

A Mac user isn't going to just skip the banking site they want to look at, if they have a $50 program to run Windows and they know they don't have to worry about incompatibility anymore.

A Mac user doesn't OWN Windows.

If he absolutely needs to, that $50 program turns into a $300 program, which is pretty much the same situation as before, with Virtual PC.

And before anybody says that it's wrong to assume that a Mac user will PAY for Windows, please note that a) most Mac users DO pay for their software, and b) spindler assumed that he'd pay for the $50 software as well, despite the fact that it won't run on the Mac.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by analogika

A Mac user doesn't OWN Windows.

If he absolutely needs to, that $50 program turns into a $300 program, which is pretty much the same situation as before, with Virtual PC.

I have an old copy of Windows that I don't use…

Originally Posted by analogika

And before anybody says that it's wrong to assume that a Mac user will PAY for Windows, please note that a) most Mac users DO pay for their software, and b) spindler assumed that he'd pay for the $50 software as well, despite the fact that it won't run on the Mac.

I thought the $50 software in question was Parallels, which does run on the Mac. What is it actually?

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

I thought the $50 software in question was Parallels, which does run on the Mac. What is it actually?

Ah, missed that. I thought he said "to run IN Windows".

Either way, you still need Windows.

[Tuoder]

Originally Posted by spindler

Let's use the laws of supply and demand to figure out what will happen to the development of OS X software now that Windows is available.

For applications like Word or Photoshop, the Mac user will seek out the Mac software version, because they enjoy the GUI. A company can't decide to not make a version of their software for OS X because then the Mac user, preferring the Mac environment, will simply buy a different product that does use the Mac GUI. The only exception could be things like Microsoft Word, where the user NEEDS it, so the user would probably HAVE TO buy the Windows version since their is no other option.

Now, for games, there is a big difference. Let's say that Total Destruction X come out on Windows before the planned Mac version. For the people really into gaming, they will buy the Windows version to play it, therefore lowering the audience for the Mac version that comes out a year later. So the question is what percentage of Mac users are casual enough to not bother with Windows versions and what percentage are hardcore enough to buy the Windows version. Imagine if you could have played Windows DOOM on the Mac. It would have greatly lowered the audience for when the Mac version comes out, giving a disincentive to develop it.

Now look at adding features to programs. If you can just open up Windows Internet Explorer to see a site that only works well in Windows, it lowers the incentive for web sites to make themselves non-IE compatible. A Mac user isn't going to just skip the banking site they want to look at, if they have a $50 program to run Windows and they know they don't have to worry about incompatibility anymore.

So everytime a Mac users says "I'll just fire up the Windows version of the program to use that one feature the Mac version doesn't have." it lowers the incentive for developers to create a Mac version quickly. Before it was a differentiating factor between two Mac programs, that they, say, supported .AVI files. But now that you can use Windows Media Player natively there will probably be less Mac users willing to buy a .AVI player for the Mac.

The problem that I see with that is that, IMO most people will not use boot camp. I am talking about "Joe Computer User" here. There are certainly people that will use and even depend on dual booting. However, I think that market pentration of windows in boot camp will be pretty low. If Apple offered Windows preinstalled on Macs, I could see things happening how you say.

[gadger]

Originally Posted by Tuoder

The problem that I see with that is that, IMO most people will not use boot camp. I am talking about "Joe Computer User" here. There are certainly people that will use and even depend on dual booting. However, I think that market pentration of windows in boot camp will be pretty low. If Apple offered Windows preinstalled on Macs, I could see things happening how you say.

If the complete version of BootCamp comes out, then in no time the number of current windows users purchasing Macs will out number the present Mac folowers... just like the iPod. ... and so will the penetration of Windows in bootcamp...

[jamil5454]

I fail to see how this is going to hurt Apple. The people that need to Windows likely are already doing so on a separate PC. This software just allows them to combine two machines into one. I'm sure the people who paid the premium for Apple hardware are going to use OS X the majority of the time, and Windows only for the things they need it for, hence the reason they bought a Mac over a PC.

[Tuoder]

Originally Posted by pIxIe

If the complete version of BootCamp comes out, then in no time the number of current windows users purchasing Macs will out number the present Mac folowers... just like the iPod. ... and so will the penetration of Windows in bootcamp...

I think that Apple preinstalling or optioning Windows on Macs is a pretty big "if".

[ryaxnb]

Originally Posted by pIxIe

Hi.. amongst all the discussions here... I just want to add my perspective.

I have abundant access to Macs on campus, but my personal computer is a ThinkPad-T43 running Windows XP. I love the OS-X

Mac OS X or OS X

platform and really appreciate the intuitive, visually appealing and in many ways is functionally superior to Windows. But being in electrical engineering, there are quite a bit of software ranging from small time tools for programming/debugging to full blown applications like Xilinx & Cadence that I have to frequently use.



Alternative applications may exist on the Mac for these. But these applications are not a joke and it take several years perhaps to learn to use them efficiently. Many of these applications are almost as large as the OS taking up several GB of HDD space with a gazillion files. The companies that makes these are mostly at the cutting edge adapting to latest trends and technologies and for anyone who’s career lies on using them WILL NOT make any switch to other lesser applications that run on a MAC

Mac or Macintosh

just for the benefits OS-X provides.

Granted that most people only need and will be using applications already available on a MAC, but a very large portion like me use Windows because there simply is no other alternative and without MAC gaining some serious user base, there will probably never be one.

Anyway, if BootCamp develops into a full fledged application and the whole process a success, my next computer will be a MAC... and so will many others. With this just 1 application like BootCamp, Apple has added many more users like me to their arsenal.



Most personal computing PC users use nothing more than what can't be done with on a MAC right out of the box. Yet these millions, if not billions of users buy nothing other than a PC over & over again. The reason what I think is... they really don't care and are really in-experienced with computers. They don't want the hassle of learning a new system... all they want to do is email, chat with friends & family far away, see pictures & movies and play games once in a while. I use to work for Dell and I used to be amazed at the amount of really high end systems purchased by people who do nothing more than send emails!!! Systems that costs well above a MAC... There are some serious spending potential there and all their needs are met and exceeded by the OS-X. But getting them to try a MAC will involve playing Microsoft for some time. You need a move like BootCamp that will guarantee that people who are a bit educated & knowledgeable with computers who can install a new OS and stuff could make the shift. But to get those millions who just use their computers for email and stuff.. who are not going to take the trouble of installing windows.. Apple will need to sell their systems as a dual boot out of the box. In any case, Bootcamp will potentially gain many more users here... enough to probably take them over 10% user base in the very near future.


I doubt anyone will think that. There is no shortage of high quality hardware in the PC world if ou are ready to pay for it.. Speaking purely of hardware, I would stand my ground that my ThinkPad is superior to the PowerBook in almost all areas

Ironically, the ThinkPad name has been purcahsed by some shitty Chinese company. ThinkPad was too good for the PC World Also, what about iSight, Backlit keyboard, Core Duo (only Dual-core in most laptops) 17" screen, MagSafe, etc... the list goes on. Apple creates COOL hardware especially on the MacBook/PowerBook front

. It’s mainly the OS and other software that differentiate the two worlds and if I make a shift, it will only be because of the OS… and I like to think that most others too will do it for the same reason.

Apple Weekness:

1. Microsoft does not dominate just because of personal PC users. The major money lies in corporate frameworks... an area

I know most users are not aware of this, but Apple's Mac OS X Server product addresses many of these issues. It includes Open Directory (a la Active Directory), Kerberos and other open-source technologies

.Microsoft has successfully penetrated recently and is Apples biggest weakness. To address this, first Apple has to become popular enough... then they need an OS that can handle the thousands of different services, applications & hardware that make up a corporate network. Microsoft has automated deployment engines like Active Directory etc.. where from a Windows based server, the administrator can monitor and control the other thousands of computers on a network.. what applications the users can open, what changes to software & hardware the user can make, automated software updates throughout the company, an integrated information & data delivery and processing environment etc etc.. Apple needs an OS that can handle this and even if they make one, it won't sell if the platform itself is not popular enough... and BootCamp is the first step in towards achieving that.


2. Apple does not have an OS for a Tablet PC. That is a massive market on its own and is estimated to be the biggest market ever with ever thinner laptops and sophisticated hand writing recognition and organization software in he future... That is one area they seriously need to address in-order to stay competitive. No matter how die-hard a MAC fan you are.. if you are doing college in the future and you see your classmates taking notes, recording lecturers and doing homework more efficiently all on an ultra thin Tablet PCs.. you'll make the switch. So is the case in a working environment.

Tablet PCs are one of the SMALLEST markets, I would hardly call 500,000 out of around 46,700,000 laptops "Massive!" Who predicted these giant growth figures? MS partners? Tablet PC are a HUGE JOKE, OK? ............................

On a whole, I think this is one of the best moves Apple has made. No matter how good you are, you need more money to stay competitive and that requires more users... and BootCamp is the first step towards that direction. I realize many of you despise Windows, but that doesn't change ground reality. Apple needs to get into main stream if it really needs to survive... Opening up a single application like iTunes to the PC world shot their iPOD sales to previously un-imagined heights and brought the whole company new spending potential.... just the iPODs!!!! Now, its time they do the same with their computers... and again BootCamp is a step in the right direction.

[Capt Shane]

Originally Posted by johnny_laconic

I have a lower post count but, of course, iDoctor had a 2 year head start to get all those extra posts...

Low Post counts unite!!!

[gadger]

Originally Posted by ryaxnb

ThinkPad was too good for the PC World Also, what about iSight, Backlit keyboard, Core Duo (only Dual-core in most laptops) 17" screen, MagSafe, etc... the list goes on. Apple creates COOL hardware especially on the MacBook/PowerBook front

1. Thinkpads in June 1998 was the first computer to have a Titanium body.... Apple followed track, but later suspended it 'coz it was too expensive for them, but Thinkpads even today have Titanium composite bodies. If worse come to worst, I can take any challenge from any Powerbook owner to drop our laptops from a first floor. I will take the cosmetically damaged ThinkPad and go to work, while the PowerBook will surely have to go to the nearest dust bin.

2. Thinkpads first featured the active HDD parking mechanism... aptly copied by Mac.

3. Powerbook has backlit keyboard and Thinkpads have the keyboard light (mounted ot top of the LCD) that can be even conveniently used for reading a book too in the dark... that too for a very long time now.

4. iSight..... Thinkpads don't feature them and probably may never feature one. But that is not because of the technical challenge involved… PCs have had built in camera for quite a while now.

5. Core Duo on a 17" laptop... putting a core duo inside any laptop is the same, be it 17" or 7" and Thinkpads are business laptops and from my understanding, will never ever make a 17" one.

6. Maglife connector is cool & innovative. Granted in this area, the Thinkpads pale in comparison.

7. The list goes on... Am totally confused here??? Anyway, to help you out let me tell you what the Thinkpads feature that the Powerbooks don't:

(a) Best TrackPoint on any laptop: Use one and you will never use the touchpad again.

(b) Best keyboard on any laptop.

(c) Thinnest DVD/CD multi-drive (Ultrabay) on any laptop that can be dynamically hot-swapped to house additional battery, zip drives, floppy disk drives, another HDD and any other module that will fit in. Mac just has the tray less drive that can't be swapped for anything.

(d) Finger Print Reader that can be used to log on to any websites, your computer, and the secured or protected sections within the OS.

(e) TPM (Trusted Platform module): A security chip within the computer that stores all the passwords you want and integrated with the finger print reader. It disables the whole computer, BIOS, HDD and locks all OS passwords that are only released upon authentication, in my case, my finger. Even if someone steals my thinkPad's HDD, they will not be able to access any information on it... 'coz it needs the security chip on my ThinkPad to unlock it.

(f) WWAN network access and Protection: You can track the stolen Thinkpads if the thief ever uses the built in cellular wireless to connect to the internet anywhere in the US. A feature implemented in collaboration with Verizon Wireless.

(g) Dead silent and cool, unlike the overheating vent-less Macbook Pros.

(h) Over 9 hours of battey life with really advanced battery management. Can discharge and re-charge the batteries at the rate, duration and to the power level the user decides.

(i) Titanium composite body as opposed to Aluminum & carbon fiber.

Note that everything I said is pertaining to hardware and nothing to do with software. Looking from the Thinkpad, the Powerbook offer ABSOLUTELY NO attraction what-so-ever except a more stylish looks, but I simply love the jet-black Thinkpads. The ONLY thing that attracts me is the OS and the fact that since Apple makes everything, the applications more seamlessly integrate.

I went through the whole MacBook Pro specifications and the only thing it has that the ThinkPads don’t are:

1. iSight.
2. MagSafe: A really cool feature that I appreciate on the Mac.
3. Audio Optical Out: OK… would like to have that one.
4. Backlit Keyboard: Don’t care, the ThinkPad light is so much more practical and useful. But I put in the list just for your satisfaction.

Now, it is your chance to tell me where the Apple hardware list when stacked against a ThinkPad goes on..... In the meantime, try http://www.pc.ibm.com/us/thinkpad/co...nds/index.html

Abuse Windows all its worth for, I too will gladly join. But when it comes to hardware superiority when compared with a ThinkPad, it’s a whole different ball game.

EDIT: Thinkpads have been bought by a company involved with IBM on ThinkPad development for quite some time. Besides, they sold it for a sum worth more than Apple's computer division having only a 5% user base. Lenovo is now the worlds third largest computer manufacturer. Besides, they just stepped up the toughness of the ThinkPads one more notch up with the T60.

[goMac]

Blizzard recommitted to native Mac OS X games yesterday.

[ryaxnb]

Originally Posted by pIxIe

1. Thinkpads in June 1998 was the first computer to have a Titanium body.... Apple followed track, but later suspended it 'coz it was too expensive for them, but Thinkpads even today have Titanium composite bodies. If worse come to worst, I can take any challenge from any Powerbook owner to drop our laptops from a first floor. I will take the cosmetically damaged ThinkPad and go to work, while the PowerBook will surely have to go to the nearest dust bin.

2. Thinkpads first featured the active HDD parking mechanism... aptly copied by Mac.

3. Powerbook has backlit keyboard and Thinkpads have the keyboard light (mounted ot top of the LCD) that can be even conveniently used for reading a book too in the dark... that too for a very long time now.

4. iSight..... Thinkpads don't feature them and probably may never feature one. But that is not because of the technical challenge involved… PCs have had built in camera for quite a while now.

5. Core Duo on a 17" laptop... putting a core duo inside any laptop is the same, be it 17" or 7" and Thinkpads are business laptops and from my understanding, will never ever make a 17" one.

6. Maglife connector is cool & innovative. Granted in this area, the Thinkpads pale in comparison.

7. The list goes on... Am totally confused here??? Anyway, to help you out let me tell you what the Thinkpads feature that the Powerbooks don't:

(a) Best TrackPoint on any laptop: Use one and you will never use the touchpad again.

Subjective. Some would like the innovative Scrolling Trackpad on the mac better. (I'm sure other laptops have scrolling mechanisms but AFAIK the Mac is the only one to do it this way.

(b) Best keyboard on any laptop.

Subjective. I personally think the Powebook's keyboard is great, but I've never used a ThinkPad - it's likely excellent too.

(c) Thinnest DVD/CD multi-drive (Ultrabay) on any laptop that can be dynamically hot-swapped to house additional battery, zip drives, floppy disk drives, another HDD and any other module that will fit in. Mac just has the tray less drive that can't be swapped for anything.

Macs are thinner and lighter for their features then ThinkPads. 1" thick. But I agree - I'd take a hot-swappable bay over thickness any day.

(d) Finger Print Reader that can be used to log on to any websites, your computer, and the secured or protected sections within the OS.

That's neat

(e) TPM (Trusted Platform module): A security chip within the computer that stores all the passwords you want and integrated with the finger print reader. It disables the whole computer, BIOS, HDD and locks all OS passwords that are only released upon authentication, in my case, my finger. Even if someone steals my thinkPad's HDD, they will not be able to access any information on it... 'coz it needs the security chip on my ThinkPad to unlock it.

FileVault is integrated into the Mac OS - it allows you to transparently encrypt your whole home folder. Simply enter a password to unlock

(f) WWAN network access and Protection: You can track the stolen Thinkpads if the thief ever uses the built in cellular wireless to connect to the internet anywhere in the US. A feature implemented in collaboration with Verizon Wireless.

Cool. The built-in cellular wireless feature in ThinkPads, IMHO, sounds cooler - another win for the ThinkPad.

(g) Dead silent and cool, unlike the overheating vent-less Macbook Pros.

Cool

(h) Over 9 hours of battey life with really advanced battery management. Can discharge and re-charge the batteries at the rate, duration and to the power level the user decides.

So can MacBook.

(i) Titanium composite body as opposed to Aluminum & carbon fiber.

Apple switched from Titanium cause it was impractical, not because it was expensive.

EDIT: Thinkpads have been bought by a company involved with IBM on ThinkPad development for quite some time. Besides, they sold it for a sum worth more than Apple's computer division having only a 5% user base. Lenovo is now the worlds third largest computer manufacturer. Besides, they just stepped up the toughness of the ThinkPads one more notch up with the T60.

I don't trust Lenovo - I saw some bad reviews (e.g. Ars Technica)