[Spliffdaddy]

A lot of things are possible, yet pointless.

The best credit is cash.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

The best credit is cash.

Yeah, BS.

How, again, do you buy a house in an area where even small houses go for 400k+ ?

-t

[Spliffdaddy]

You save money until you can afford it.

Might take you 10 or 15 years.

By the time you pay off an average 30 year mortgage - you could have paid cash for 2 houses.

Move to an area with more affordable housing.

I'm just suggesting that there is always a better alternative than being a slave to a creditor.

Take it from somebody who's been there.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

You save money until you can afford it.
Might take you 10 or 15 years.
By the time you pay off an average 30 year mortgage - you could have paid cash for 2 houses.
Move to an area with more affordable housing.
I'm just suggesting that there is always a better alternative than being a slave to a creditor.
Take it from somebody who's been there.

That doesn't sound too smart to me. Especially if you take into consideration the appreciation of properties (even w/o bubble effect), you really wasted money. Ah well, but gives you the goof feeling of being "free".

Btw, saving 15 years for 400k house ? Do the maths.

-t

[Spliffdaddy]

I did the 'maths' and it comes out the same amount per month as paying a 30yr mortgage - only you own the house in 15 years.

At the end of the 30 year mortgage, you will have paid over twice as much as the original loan amount.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

I did the 'maths' and it comes out the same amount per month as paying a 30yr mortgage - only you own the house in 15 years.

At the end of the 30 year mortgage, you will have paid over twice as much as the original loan amount.

Wouldn't you be paying rent too living somewhere else for those 15 years?

[whgoodman]

Originally Posted by Dakar

Wouldn't you be paying rent too living somewhere else for those 15 years?

Don't forget to calculate in the tax break you get on the interest paid on the mortgage which you will not get with rent. Granted, the tax break isn't much, but it's better than a sharp stick in the eye or paying the government more money. Also include the appreciation of the property, which in my case has been over 200% over the last 10 years.

[Eriamjh]

Originally Posted by Dakar

Wouldn't you be paying rent too living somewhere else for those 15 years?

No. You live at home with mommy, silly!

Plus he doesn't calculate equity building as the house increases in value as you pay for it. MOST houses appreciate at a decent rate.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

I did the 'maths' and it comes out the same amount per month as paying a 30yr mortgage - only you own the house in 15 years.

You didn't do it right.

Let's do a simple example for a 15 year mortgage / savings comparison.


Following parameters:

Inflation: 0.0% (to make things easier)
APR interest: 6.0%
House appreciation: 4.0%
Mortgage: 15 years
Downpayment 10%: 20,000


House cost / value:
Today: $ 200,000
In 15 yrs.: $ 360,189 (at 4.0% appreciation per year)

Monthly mortgage: 1,518.94 (@ 6.0 % APR)
http://www.moneychimp.com/calculator...calculator.htm

Compare to:

Rent: $ 750 per month (going up at same rate as house appreciation, 4.0%)
Total over 15 years: $ 180,212

Savings each month (incl. initial $ 20,000 downpayment): $ 1,127.67 at same savings rate APR, 6.0% (Don't want to go too risky here, right, you are risk averse.)

Total worth of savings over 15 years: $ 360.189, so you can buy your house in cash.

Total monthly cost rent + savings: $ 1,878 (year 1, rent oing up, mortgage stays flat !)

Disadvantage over mortgage: $ 359 per month ($ 91,691 over 15 years @ 6.0%).

And this does NOT factor in better tax break through mortgage !!!

So, show me, how again did YOUR maths go ?

-t

[iREZ]

i just got my first credit card two weeks ago and im only using it for gas and big purchases (fridge, television, so forth...). i wish i had started building my credit sooner, 24 is a late start .

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by iREZ

i just got my first credit card two weeks ago and im only using it for gas and big purchases (fridge, television, so forth...). i wish i had started building my credit sooner, 24 is a late start .

It's ok. I moved to the US 3.5 years ago, and got decent credit by now. What helped though is to be a co-signer with my wife, who had some cards for 10+ years.

-t

[sabrejim]

Originally Posted by iREZ

i just got my first credit card two weeks ago and im only using it for gas and big purchases (fridge, television, so forth...). i wish i had started building my credit sooner, 24 is a late start .

Use the credit card for everything you would pay cash for. Stay nicely below your limits. After a while bump up your limits. Don't have to worry about carrying cash. You get various buyer protections with the cards too. It's fantastic. Pick something with cash back or good bonuses as well. I pay my tuition on my card and it brings back a nice kickback.

[iREZ]

if i were to make a couple big purchase soon, would it be logical to put said large purchases on the credit card? i have the money in cash and could buy the products outright, but i have no idea on how to build my credit at a brisker pace than the usual and figure putting larger purchases and paying them off quickly will help me out...is this correct? or am i as ignorant as i think i am?

[turtle777]

Spliff, I'd still like to see your famous calculation. Thx.

-t

[Spliffdaddy]

If you spend 15 years paying a 30 year conventional mortgage, approximately 80% of those payments will be for the interest.

If your property value were to increase 4% every year - you're still in the hole, because the mortgage is costing you more than that. Besides, every other house in the area will increase in price, as well. So, in order to convert your home's increased value into cash in your pocket - you'll have to sell it and move to an area with cheaper housing. Something you can do today.

Houses don't always increase in value. In fact, all indications point to a bursting bubble. Interest rates are rising, which decreases buying power for debtors. Housing costs will not outpace the local job market - which dictates wages. I know if I had a business in Washington DC, and I had to pay a wage that would allow my employees to live in the area - I'd just move my business to an area where the cost of living was more manageble - and pay them a lot less. Houses only cost $400,000 because the local economy supports wages of that level.

The other day I noticed a house I used to own back in 1999 was for sale again. It's in one of the best areas of Charlotte, NC. I sold that house in 1999 for $107,500. Today, the asking price is $117,000. That's a more typical scenario of what happens in the housing market. The prices rise, but only in relation to material cost and inflation. That particular house wouldn't have been a good investment. But then, I would never recommend buying a house for its investment potential.

But Spliff, how can I have a house without borrowing money?

Fist of all, you should never have to borrow money for anything in life. Use your brain and your hands, instead. Eat rice and beans, share an apartment or rent a room. Save enough money to purchase the land and materials needed to build your own house. You'll save up to 50% of the cost of a new home. There's literally nothing you can't do yourself. If you can read this post, you can read a book. Don't tell me you can't build your own house. Because then you'll have to admit that I'm smarter than you are.

I built my first home in a mere 4 months. Sold it and made $50,000 profit on a $50,000 investment. Was I born knowing how to build a house? No, I read a lot of books and I surfed a lot of 'net.

While other people insist that they need to borrow money in order to own a house - I prove them wrong, and make a LOT of money doing it. So go ahead, borrow money for college - borrow money for a car - borrow money for a house. Convince yourself that you're successful. After all, Spliffdaddy makes his living from borrowers like yourself. And he makes more money than you. No college, no car loan, no mortgage.

I did the math.

Maybe you should check your calculations.

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

<snip>

...Because then you'll have to admit that I'm smarter than you are.

<snip>

While other people insist that they need to borrow money in order to own a house - I prove them wrong, and make a LOT of money doing it. So go ahead, borrow money for college - borrow money for a car - borrow money for a house. Convince yourself that you're successful. After all, Spliffdaddy makes his living from borrowers like yourself. And he makes more money than you. No college, no car loan, no mortgage.

Good for you.

The attitude that you have won't make you very many friends in this world.

If you truly were "better than anyone else," as you make yourself out to be, you wouldn't be trying to rub people's noses in it, as you are doing here.

EDIT: A little less inflammatory.

[Spliffdaddy]

Don't get mad. I just told you how to make big money and stay out of debt.

I can't help it if you've bought into the myth that you need to be a slave to creditors in order to call yourself successful.

Now get back to work so you can pay those bills.

I think I'll just kick back and watch TV today.

[ort888]

I also built my own house, and my own car. I also grow all of my own food.

[ort888]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Don't get mad. I just told you how to make big money and stay out of debt.

I can't help it if you've bought into the myth that you need to be a slave to creditors in order to call yourself successful.

Now get back to work so you can pay those bills.

I think I'll just kick back and watch TV today.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally Posted by ort888

I also built my own house, and my own car. I also grow all of my own food.

*bows down to the master*


So what's your credit score?

We all know that's the measurement of true success.

[ort888]

I don't have a credit score. I live in the woods by myself. I built my own satellite internet internet setup out of pine cones and squirrel skins.

[Spliffdaddy]

You are god-like.

We should hang out sometime.


PS, all you debtors - (aka, folks with high credit scores) - that wish to hate me...please take a number and wait your turn.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

If your property value were to increase 4% every year - you're still in the hole, because the mortgage is costing you more than that.

Bullcrap. Show me your calculation on that, not just your ideology

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Houses don't always increase in value.

Break-even for a mortgage with 6% APR, savings of 6% APR, rent increase of 2% (inflation) per year is a house appreciation of 1.77%. In most areas, this is easy to get, especially with an inflation > 2%.

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

I did the math.
Maybe you should check your calculations.

Can I see it ?

Here is mine. http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.ph...A0908254BB30CB

Let's talk facts, not ideology.

-t

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

Let's talk facts, not ideology.

-t

pwned!

[Calimus]

It depends on what part of the country you are in. With house prices so inflated, renting can be a better use of your money. You can save, and invest the money, earning perhaps 10%(not that hard to do in the market, baring a very bad year). You're also forgeting the extra expenses that having a house brings, new roof, plumbing issues, garbage, water bill. I think you really have to compare each situation in detail to be sure. At the very least, you should have the 20% down or you'll blow the whole equation with PMI. You can't say that having a mortgage is the better option over saving/renting in all cases.

[Dork.]

You also have to be careful what type of mortgage you get. When we bought our house, we got the standard 30-yr mortgage, and could not put enough down to avoid paying PMI. But we found the house we wanted in the neighborhood we wanted, at a good price. We are planning to stay here for the long haul. We paid a lot in interest and PMI, but my wife and I were both working, and could afford not only to do that, but put extra in toward the principal besides.That mortgage was costing us a lot of unnecessary expense.

A few years later, rates were lower and we were able to refinance to a 20-yr mortgage that had approximately the same payment as our old 30-yr. The house also appreciated to the point where we could ditch the PMI and not have to escrow our taxes. These changes will add up to quite a bit of savings over the old mortgage over the time we're living in the house. Now we have a child, and we can afford to live on one income, in a neighborhood with a good school district and reasonable taxes for the area. If we waited until now to buy a house, we wouldn't be in as good a position right now.

Debt is a financial tool, nothing more, nothing less. Tools aren't inherently good or bad, it's how you use them that is good or bad. I think mortgage debt is a good thing, as long as you stick to conventional mortgages and accumulate equity (and don't just cash out that equity in the form of a loan once you build it up.) Saving up for 15 years to buy a house is just plain silly -- that's a considerable fraction of your life that you'd spend waiting!

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

Bullcrap. Show me your calculation on that, not just your ideology

Break-even for a mortgage with 6% APR, savings of 6% APR, rent increase of 2% (inflation) per year is a house appreciation of 1.77%. In most areas, this is easy to get, especially with an inflation > 2%.

Can I see it ?

Here is mine. http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.ph...A0908254BB30CB

Let's talk facts, not ideology.

-t

You seem to think owning a house is simply the cost of the mortgage payments. You obviously have found a home stuck in a time warp that doesn't age and need repairs.

New roof for me last year: $9,600.

Tree removal: $2,300

Furnace with A/C $4,300.

I get to paint it this Summer.

Lawn mower ownership, lawn care supplies, leaky faucet repairs, new curtains, new carpeting, garage door and opener, ... (the list goes on for a long time) all cost money you are not factoring into your "maths".

But hey, I hope you have a big peni... err credit score, so you can pay the bankers extra money to eventually own things.

I'll kick back and watch TV today and tomorrow like Spliffdaddy. I like his attitude.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Railroader

You seem to think owning a house is simply the cost of the mortgage payments. You obviously have found a home stuck in a time warp that doesn't age and need repairs.

New roof for me last year: $9,600.
Tree removal: $2,300
Furnace with A/C $4,300.

WTF does that have to do with anything ?

We are talking buying a house on credit NOW vs. on cash later ?
Yes, you'll have those expenses, but they get offset by the tax break, to say the least.

Duh, you people really suck when it comes to arguing a simple point, you always de-railroad.

-t

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

WTF does that have to do with anything ?

We are talking buying a house on credit NOW vs. on cash later ?
Yes, you'll have those expenses, but they get offset by the tax break, to say the least.

Duh, you people really suck when it comes to arguing a simple point, you always de-railroad.

-t

You don't get it?!?

Your 4% appreciation argument is blown by the cost of maintenance.

And who says you have to buy a $400,000 house as your first house? Ever heard the term "starter home"? My first "starter" home was $65,000 in 1997. Built in 1881. Small, tiny, miniscule. But it was n a very good location. Other houses in the neighborhood were worth $140,000+. Sold it three years later for $82,000. You don't have to buy the best house that a banker will allow you to borrow for.

Hey, you've bought the debt-for-your-life myth. Enjoy!

Cheers. Having a beer not worrying about work tomorrow.

[Spliffdaddy]

I didn't do a damn thing today. Woke up at 11:15, watched some stupid western movie, checked the oil in my (paid for) truck, surfed the internet, and took a nap.

I spent over 20 years working for "the man" (creditors) before I got smart. Hell, back in the day I owed more money to creditors than a lot of folks will make in their lifetime. I actually wore the gold off of several of those American Express Gold cards - before I was 20 years old. Used to get an annual statement that was as thick as a phone book.

Owing money took away a lot of my freedom. I always felt stuck in my job. Always needed to work on weekends just to have extra cash. Everybody kept telling me how successful I was. Buy this, buy that - you're young...there's plenty of time to pay for it all.

One day I looked up and half my life was over. And I was still working for the man. How I envied those folks with bad credit and zero debt. Bad credit is the best thing that could happen to you. Because having nothing is way better than owing the man. Most people you meet have a negative net worth. If they sold everything they owned, they'd still owe money.

So get mad at me. Shoot the messenger. I felt just the same way as you when I figured out that I'd been doing the wrong thing for half my life. Use that anger to motivate yourself to become debt-free. There's no better feeling. Except for a hot redhead wearing a skirt. I ain't gonna lie....I'd go into debt for a hot redhead.


(see that link down there? $41,000....that's like $238/month for 30 years - for you debtors. But I'll turn it into a $80,000 house and make $25,000 profit within one month. If I can stop watching TV and sleeping all day. Read books, use hands - best advice you'll ever get)

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Railroader

You don't get it?!?

Your 4% appreciation argument is blown by the cost of maintenance.

And who says you have to buy a $400,000 house as your first house? Ever heard the term "starter home"?

WTF, where did I say it had to be a 400k home ?

Second, what is your point ?

We are not arguing home owning vs. renting, so don't come with your cost of maintenance.
We are NOT, for Pete's freaking sake, arguing pro or contra home owning, but the means of financing and obtaining it. Even if you buy your home cash, you still have the cost of maintenance, so shove that argument up your ass, it has NOTHING to do with the discussion.

-t

[turtle777]

Spliff, building and / or renovating your own home is NOT an option for everyone.
It takes skill and aptitude. Don't take it for granted that you have it, not everyone does.

-t

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

WTF, where did I say it had to be a 400k home ?

Second, what is your point ?

We are not arguing home owning vs. renting, so don't come with your cost of maintenance.
We are NOT, for Pete's freaking sake, arguing pro or contra home owning, but the means of financing and obtaining it. Even if you buy your home cash, you still have the cost of maintenance, so shove that argument up your ass, it has NOTHING to do with the discussion.

-t

Violent behavior usually signifies someone is insecure. You are obviously insecure in your argument because you can't see how what I brought up proves you wrong so you resort to violent and vulgar statements.

You have been pnwed.

Cheers!

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

Spliff, building and / or renovating your own home is NOT an option for everyone.
It takes skill and aptitude. Don't take it for granted that you have it, not everyone does.

-t

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Don't tell me you can't build your own house. Because then you'll have to admit that I'm smarter than you are.

Pwned AGAIN!!!

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

Spliff, building and / or renovating your own home is NOT an option for everyone.
It takes skill and aptitude. Don't take it for granted that you have it, not everyone does.

-t

nooo. *You* have the same ability - the same aptitude. It's stupid simple. None of the 'professional' home builders have any more aptitude and intelligence than you already possess. Next time you pass a construction site, take a good hard look at the labor crew. Do they seem superhuman and of above average intellect? Or do they look like highschool dropouts making $8.00 an hour? Yeah, you can do that job.

I didn't have the ability 2 years ago. I spent an entire Winter reading books and acquiring the knowledge I needed. Why? Because I finally decided that if I didn't build my own house, I'd never own one. I hated my job and there was no way I could quit without being homeless. So I took a 'voluntary termination package', kissed my career goodbye, and used the money to build my first house. By doing that I had stumbled upon a way to make money. More money than I was worth. Now, I don't want to keep a house that I build because I could use that money to build 2 more. I can't stand to part with a dollar, because that dollar is worth 2 dollars if I use it right.

Dude, I couldn't be more different than I was 2 years ago. My goal changed from being a simple homeowner to being fully retired and travelling around the world non-stop. Today, I don't want a house. I know I can have a house whenever I want. Owning things just serves to tie you down with responsibility. I just want the clothes on my back and a bottomless bank account. Then, I'm gonna go wherever I want and do whatever I want - everyday until I die.

I'd be happy to show somebody how to build or remodel houses. It ain't magic. But the way it changed my life is nothing short of magic. Seems natural to want to share this feeling with whoever wants to know how to get there.

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

I spent over 20 years working for "the man" (creditors) before I got smart. Hell, back in the day I owed more money to creditors than a lot of folks will make in their lifetime. I actually wore the gold off of several of those American Express Gold cards - before I was 20 years old. Used to get an annual statement that was as thick as a phone book.

Owing money took away a lot of my freedom. I always felt stuck in my job. Always needed to work on weekends just to have extra cash. Everybody kept telling me how successful I was. Buy this, buy that - you're young...there's plenty of time to pay for it all.

It's not owing money that cost you your freedom -- it was spending more money than you had, and not being able to repay it all in a timely fashion, that did it. Owing money is fine as long as you understand what you owe and have a plan to pay it back. My credit limit is higher than I would ever use in a month -- they keep raising it on me. Just because I have that high credit limit doesn't mean I'm going to use it....

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Owning things just serves to tie you down with responsibility. I just want the clothes on my back and a bottomless bank account. Then, I'm gonna go wherever I want and do whatever I want - everyday until I die.

That's all well and good until you meet a redhead in a skirt who decides to stick around for a while. After that, you still won't own anything, because she'll own it all.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally Posted by Dork.

It's not owing money that cost you your freedom -- it was spending more money than you had, and not being able to repay it all in a timely fashion, that did it. Owing money is fine as long as you understand what you owe and have a plan to pay it back. My credit limit is higher than I would ever use in a month -- they keep raising it on me. Just because I have that high credit limit doesn't mean I'm going to use it....

Borrowing $150,000 to buy a house is something *everybody* does. Are you gonna tell me that those folks didn't borrow more than they could pay back in a timely manner? What's the difference between that and what I did? I'll be honest, I had a nice house and a vacation house - and a couple of cars - and a boat - and I spent a lot of time in Europe. At the time, I could afford it all - thanks to credit. Did you know that some American Express Gold cards are good for over $35,000 in charges per month? That's insane. I charged an RV on mine - and financed it later at the credit union.

Everybody has a "plan to pay it back". Life sometimes gets in the way of those plans. I think it was a unplanned divorce that got in the way of my plan.

I'm just trying to say that I feel your pain when it comes to credit. I learned the hard way - and I wouldn't wish that sort of feeling on anybody. If you've done something stupid that involved money or credit - I've probably got you beat. That's why I have no tolerance for credit of any sort, today. I made all the excuses already. I convinced myself that credit wasn't inherently bad. I sounded a lot like the quote that leads my post. And I was wrong. So don't be like me.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Railroader

Violent behavior usually signifies someone is insecure. You are obviously insecure in your argument because you can't see how what I brought up proves you wrong so you resort to violent and vulgar statements.

You have been pnwed.

Ok, so show me the calculation that proves me wrong. Please, no words, I want to see numbers.
You are making the claim of financial non-viability, but don't back it up.

Whatever.

-t

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Railroader

Pwned AGAIN!!!

LOL

Pwned because I admit that I'm NOT all-powerful and all-mighy ? Ah well. I can live with that.

-t

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

Ok, so show me the calculation that proves me wrong. Please, no words, I want to see numbers.
You are making the claim of financial non-viability, but don't back it up.

Whatever.

-t

You never were good at word problems in primary school were you?

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by what_the_heck

LOL

Pwned because I admit that I'm NOT all-powerful and all-mighy ? Ah well. I can live with that.

-t

Quite a compliment to myself and Spliffdaddy! THANK YOU!!!

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Railroader

You never were good at word problems in primary school were you?

Derailroad. Try again.

-t

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Railroader

Quite a compliment to myself and Spliffdaddy! THANK YOU!!!

Uhm, ok. Take it as that. Does it feel good ? Goof for you, because on the merits, your arguments stink.

-t

[whgoodman]

It's really amusing reading this and seeing what people will argue about. If you go to any major metro area [meaning NYC, Boston, Denver, Atlanta, LA, SF, etc] I believe that you would be very hard pressed to find more than 1% of the population that can walk in and pay cash for any major purchase. i.e. car, house, RV, whatever. I do not have any research to back that up. It’s just a feeling.

That said, credit is a necessary evil in today’s society. What you do with that credit, however, takes some education and restraint. For example, if you have a $35,000 limit on your card does that mean that you should use it? My belief is that you use it only if you can pay it off each month. i.e. use the credit cards as interest free loans for the period of 25 days or so. Many still are not in a position to pay a card off every month so restraint on spending is required so that you don’t spend more than you make. [I whish the govt had the same restraint] The only month-to-month loan payments should be for large ticket items such as vehicles [unfortunately they cost that much now] and your residence. I do, however, see a big difference in paying a landlord $1500/month and paying a bank the same $1500/month and building equity in a home. Between the appreciation of the property and the Federal tax breaks it looks much more attractive to own than to rent. Unfortunately, some have used the previous hot housing market to generate some loan tools to allow someone making 50k/yr to purchase a 500k home. That same loan tool [usually an ARM or InterestOnly loan] will be the tool that will lead many to bankruptcy because they didn’t use restraint and borrowed way outside their means and are now getting clobbered by the adjustable rates. Still comes down to education and perhaps a little bit of house cleaning in the residential mortgage industry.

Flame away.

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Borrowing $150,000 to buy a house is something *everybody* does. Are you gonna tell me that those folks didn't borrow more than they could pay back in a timely manner? What's the difference between that and what I did? I'll be honest, I had a nice house and a vacation house - and a couple of cars - and a boat - and I spent a lot of time in Europe. At the time, I could afford it all - thanks to credit. Did you know that some American Express Gold cards are good for over $35,000 in charges per month? That's insane. I charged an RV on mine - and financed it later at the credit union.

Everybody has a "plan to pay it back". Life sometimes gets in the way of those plans. I think it was a unplanned divorce that got in the way of my plan.

I'm just trying to say that I feel your pain when it comes to credit. I learned the hard way - and I wouldn't wish that sort of feeling on anybody. If you've done something stupid that involved money or credit - I've probably got you beat. That's why I have no tolerance for credit of any sort, today. I made all the excuses already. I convinced myself that credit wasn't inherently bad. I sounded a lot like the quote that leads my post. And I was wrong. So don't be like me.

The difference is that I borrowed less than I could afford (in terms of being able to afford the payments), and actively looked for ways to reduce my exposure to debt, while you clearly borrowed without regard to the payments, and learned your lesson the hard way. Just like renting an apartment is paying to use a space you don't own, you can look at debt as renting money: paying for the right to use someone else's money. And just like it's stupid to rent a larger apartment than you can afford, it's stupid to rent more money than you can afford, too. So maybe the difference is lust in the level of self-control people have. Credit is bad for some people because they can't control their spending, just like alcohol or gambling is bad for people who can't control themselves. If you advocate that everyone avoid credit becasue it's too easy to abuse it, then you need to swear off beer and poker too, in order to be consistent!

And yes, there are life events which can positively wreck your plans for the future. While you can't plan for those events specifically, you can plan for the unexpected by leaving a sufficient buffer and saving some money when you can. In my case, the transition from two incomes to one income + baby expenses was hard for us, and we spent more money than we took in in 2005. But since we were not in debt up to our eyeballs, and were saving a bit of mone before then, we were able to get through last year without incurring more debt. This year looks a lot better.

[Spliffdaddy]

I think I'll take the day off again.

And ponder which of us is right.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

I think I'll take the day off again.
And ponder which of us is right.

And WTF does that have to do with anything ?

So what you're saying: people that buy houses with cash can be lazy asses, because they don't get into debt. Wow, your simple mind and worldview amazes me.

On the other hand, your simplistic view explains a lot. Actually, I'm done arguing with you. It's almost like arguing with Rob. LOL.

-t

[Eriamjh]

I stopped reading, but don't forget at the end of the 30 years of paying for a house, you have a house to sell. What do you have with an apartment?

[Spliffdaddy]

I'm saying that people who are slaves to creditors will lose some freedom.