[Landos Mustache]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

And you're obsesssed with sex.

Show me how I am obsessed with sex.

Or are you just stereotyping?

[Y3a]

Landos Mustache has been a troll in every other life, so why is this one any different?

[Kevin]

Esp when he stereotypes more than anyone else in this forum.

What is funny is, he is a living, breathing stereotype himself.

*sigh*

[Cody Dawg]

This is such a great article from Slate:

Worse Than 1984

North Korea, slave state.

By Christopher Hitchens

How extraordinary it is, when you give it a moment's thought, that it was only last week that an American president officially spoke the obvious truth about North Korea. In point of fact, Mr. Bush rather understated matters when he said that Kim Jong-il's government runs "concentration camps." It would be truer to say that the Democratic People's Republic of North Korea, as it calls itself, is a concentration camp. It would be even more accurate to say, in American idiom, that North Korea is a slave state.

This way of phrasing it would not have the legal implication that the use of the word "genocide" has. To call a set of actions "genocidal," as in the case of Darfur, is to invoke legal consequences that are entailed by the U.N.'s genocide convention, to which we are signatories.

However, to call a country a slave state is to set another process in motion: that strange business that we might call the working of the American conscience.

It was rhetorically possible, in past epochs of ideological confrontation, for politicians to shout about the "slavery" of Nazism and of communism, and indeed of nations that were themselves "captive." The element of exaggeration was pardonable, in that both systems used forced labor and also the threat of forced labor to coerce or to terrify others. But not even in the lowest moments of the Third Reich, or of the gulag, or of Mao's "Great Leap Forward," was there a time when all the subjects of the system were actually enslaved.

In North Korea, every person is property and is owned by a small and mad family with hereditary power. Every minute of every day, as far as regimentation can assure the fact, is spent in absolute subjection and serfdom. The private life has been entirely abolished. One tries to avoid cliché, and I did my best on a visit to this terrifying country in the year 2000, but George Orwell's 1984 was published at about the time that Kim Il Sung set up his system, and it really is as if he got hold of an early copy of the novel and used it as a blueprint. ("Hmmm … good book. Let's see if we can make it work.")

Actually, North Korea is rather worse than Orwell's dystopia. There would be no way, in the capital city of Pyongyang, to wander off and get lost in the slums, let alone to rent an off-the-record love nest in a room over a shop. Everybody in the city has to be at home and in bed by curfew time, when all the lights go off (if they haven't already failed). A recent nighttime photograph of the Korean peninsula from outer space shows something that no "free-world" propaganda could invent: a blaze of electric light all over the southern half, stopping exactly at the demilitarized zone and becoming an area of darkness in the north.

Concealed in that pitch-black night is an imploding state where the only things that work are the police and the armed forces. The situation is actually slightly worse than indentured servitude. The slave owner historically promises, in effect, at least to keep his slaves fed. In North Korea, this compact has been broken. It is a famine state as well as a slave state. Partly because of the end of favorable trade relations with, and subsidies from, the former USSR, but mainly because of the lunacy of its command economy, North Korea broke down in the 1990s and lost an unguessable number of people to sheer starvation. The survivors, especially the children, have been stunted and malformed. Even on a tightly controlled tour of the place—North Korea is almost as hard to visit as it is to leave—my robotic guides couldn't prevent me from seeing people drinking from sewers and picking up individual grains of food from barren fields. (I was reduced to eating a dog, and I was a privileged "guest.") Film shot from over the Chinese border shows whole towns ruined and abandoned, with their few factories idle and cannibalized. It seems that the mines in the north of the country have been flooded beyond repair.

In consequence of this, and for the first time since the founding of Kim Il Sung's state, large numbers of people have begun to take the appalling risk of running away. If they make it, they make it across the river into China, where there is a Korean-speaking area in the remote adjoining province. There they live under the constant threat of being forcibly repatriated. The fate of the fugitive slave is not pretty: North Korea does indeed operate a system of camps, most memorably described in a book—The Aquariums of Pyongyang, by Kang Chol-Hwan—that ought to be much more famous than it is. Given what everyday life in North Korea is like, I don't have sufficient imagination to guess what life in its prison system must be, but this book gives one a hint.

It seems to me imperative that the human rights movement, hitherto unpardonably tongue-tied about all this, should insistently take up the case of North Korea and demand that an underground railway, or perhaps even an overground one, be established. Any Korean slave who can get out should be welcomed, fed, protected, and assisted to move to South Korea. Other countries, including our own, should announce that they will take specified numbers of refugees, in case the current steady trickle should suddenly become an inundation. The Chinese obviously cannot be expected to take millions of North Koreans all at once, which is why they engage in their otherwise criminal policy of propping up Kim Jong-il, but if international guarantees for runaway slaves could be established, this problem could be anticipated.

Kim Jong-il and his fellow slave masters are trying to dictate the pace of events by setting a timetable of nuclearization, based on a crash program wrung from their human property. But why should it be assumed that their failed state and society are permanent? Another timeline, oriented to liberation and regime change, is what the dynasty most fears. It should start to fear it more. Bravo to President Bush, anyway, for his bluntness.

[Kerrigan]

reposted:

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

"President George W. Bush met with Hadley, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice as the tests were going on, a senior administration official said.

But he went ahead with plans to watch Independence Day fireworks and hold a gathering at the White House for his 60th birthday, the official said."

Why am I not surprised. At least he wasn't reading to school children this time.

Originally Posted by Landos Mustache

Perhaps it was that same attitude that accounted for 9/11.

So in your opinion [SWG], is Bush over-reacting or under-reacting to this threat?

If missile defense is 'inept', pre-emption is wrong, stern rhetoric is too provocative, and multi-party talks are ineffective, then what do you think would be an appropriate response?

[Dork.]

Hey, Cody, aren't you afraid that if we take in a bunch of North Korean refugees, as Mr. Hitchens suggests, they'll just end up living on welfare and taking jobs away from Hard Working Americans™ like yourself? Or are Asians just inherently better than Mexicans, so it's OK to let them in?

(on second thought, I'll pose the question in the other thread so as not to derail this one....)

[Landos Mustache]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

So in your opinion [SWG], is Bush over-reacting or under-reacting to this threat?

I think it is about normal but I still don't understand why the US can do whatever it wants with nuke subs and weapons testings but when other nations do it is a big NO NO.

[Kerrigan]

Lots of other nations have nuclear weapons: China, Pakistan, France, Russia, etc.

Things are stable as they are. We know that China is not going to shoot a nuke at Japan. We know that the US is not going to suddenly decide to nuke Russia. France won't nuke UK.

But NK wants revenge on Japan, and it also has said it would nuke the US for no apparent reason. This would throw the whole system into chaos and it explains why all of the world's nuclear powers are opposed to NK getting sophisticated nuclear technology.

[Landos Mustache]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

But NK wants revenge on Japan, and it also has said it would nuke the US for no apparent reason.

When did they say that?

[Cody Dawg]

Uh, remember the Korean War?

And the headlines for the past, say, 3 days?

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Lots of other nations have nuclear weapons: China, Pakistan, France, Russia, etc.

Things are stable as they are. We know that China is not going to shoot a nuke at Japan. We know that the US is not going to suddenly decide to nuke Russia. France won't nuke UK.

But NK wants revenge on Japan, and it also has said it would nuke the US for no apparent reason. This would throw the whole system into chaos and it explains why all of the world's nuclear powers are opposed to NK getting sophisticated nuclear technology.

I think this is a good argument for invading Iran.

[Kerrigan]

Well for instance today they released a statement saying that they would use physical force against anyone (read: US) who tries to put pressure on them. So NK is intimidating the US with its nuclear capable missiles, and then threatens "physical force" (I wonder what that could mean) against anyone who tries to stop them, even if only diplomacy is used against them.

From this "article":

"U.S. is set to ignite a nuclear war ... the DPRK are fully prepared to counter any provocation and challenge of the U.S."

... and what is this so-called provocation? The US allegedly was using a spy plane to take pictures of NK. This is no reason at all to start a nuclear war, but NK apparently thinks so.

More on what they claim to do about this spy plane:

... "stating that the merciless punishment against the aggressors (US) is the nature peculiar to the KPA revolutionary force.
The KPA never talk empty words."

Great, so a merciless war is threatened because of espionage, which is highly routine and occurs in every country on earth. The US did not say that nuclear war, or any kind of war, would break out after that guy was caught spying for the Russians a few years back.

Another oblique threat of nuclear war from the NK government:

"... force the U.S. military ogres to pay for the blood shed by the innocent Koreans and prevent a nuclear war."

Again, NK threatens that nuclear war will break out because of some made-up grievance against the US.

More bizarre logic:

"(The US) should lend an ear to the unbiased international voices and stop its reckless moves to start a nuclear war and foster the nuclear arms race before talking about the non-existent "nuclear threats" from other countries"

This is pure doublespeak. NK invents some imaginary threat and then uses this as justification for launching nuclear capable missiles at other countries.

There are dozens, maybe hundreds, of statements like this from NK. The recurring theme is that nuclear war is about to occur, and they use this as justification to launch their own nuclear missiles.

As for Japan, just read these headlines from the NK official news agency and you'll easily see how Koreans want revenge on Japan for WWII.

Japan Urged to Settle Its Past Monstrous Crimes

Japan Urged to Return Cultural Relics It Looted from Korea

KCNA Discloses True Colors of Japan's Distortion of History

There are loads more where that came from but I can't be bothered to post anything else now.

[Cody Dawg]

The fact is that North Korea not only looks like time stopped in the 1950's, but it thinks that way also. North Korea forgets that the rest of the world has moved on and changed.

[Kerrigan]

Not to mention it looks like North Korea's webpage hasn't been redesigned since the 1950s

[greenG4]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Not to mention it looks like North Korea's webpage hasn't been redesigned since the 1950s

Come on Kerrigan. They didn't have webpages until the 1960s. Get you facts right.

[greenG4]

I just heard on the news, that the tapodong II long range missle (ICBM) they shot was aimed at Hawaii! This is insane!

[Kerrigan]

http://asia.news.yahoo.com/060707/3/2mty8.html

[greenG4]

Just broke on Fox News. I'm searching news sites now for a link.

[greenG4]

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull

[besson3c]

Hmmm... will Fox just be trying to scare us as usual, or will they get this one right?

[Kerrigan]

That's a bit partisan isn't it? After all reuters is saying the same thing.

[greenG4]

Originally Posted by besson3c

Hmmm... will Fox just be trying to scare us as usual, or will they get this one right?

And here I was thinking you were open-minded...

[Dork.]

From the Crap News Network:

The long-range missile, the Taepodong-2, which some fear is capable of hitting the western United States, failed almost immediately after launch, said a senior U.S. official with direct knowledge of the intelligence on the testing.

It spun out of control seconds after it was launched and the North Koreans never had operational control of the missile, the official said. It failed so quickly, the official added, that the United States was never able to ascertain in what direction it was headed.

But Japan's Sankei newspaper, citing U.S. and Japanese sources, reported Friday that the missile was aimed at an area of the ocean close to Hawaii.

[Kerrigan]

[greenG4]

Nice Kerrigan.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by greenG4

I just heard on the news, that the tapodong II long range missle (ICBM) they shot was aimed at Hawaii! This is insane!

No, what you heard is that it was aimed at the area of ocean close to Hawaii. Of course, given how little control they appear to have over this missile, that doesn't mean it wouldn't hit Hawaii by accident.

[greenG4]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

No, what you heard is that it was aimed at the area of ocean close to Hawaii.

Actually I heard exactly what I said. They just clarified it after more information came in.

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak

Of course, given how little control they appear to have over this missile, that doesn't mean it wouldn't hit Hawaii by accident.

Yes, but this was the first test of the taepodong II missle. We don't want their aim to improve.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

BWAHAHAHHAHA

[Cody Dawg]

Uh-huh.

When I got all upset and said that we need to take this psychopath (Kim) seriously all the Lefties said, "No, let's just use diplomacy and ignore him."



I'm telling you, the guy is a psychopath that doesn't think like a rational person.

I almost think, also, that he's behind this latest bit of propaganda...

Honestly, the U.S. is ignoring him and it's probably eating him up so he then says, "Just so you know, I'm aiming for Hawaii," knowing full well that Hawaii is a sore subject in American and Japanese history.

The guy is a joker with bad aim.

Doesn't mean we shouldn't assassinate him, though.

[PB2K]

yes he is crazy.

but he has nothing. his rocket tehnology is so primitive, it's just 3 stacked Scud missiles onto eachother. It takes hours to prepare such a rocket with all the explosive fuels. Would NK be so stupid to prepare a launch to hawaii, then a waiting USA Boomer would only need a few seconds to launch a solidbooster rocket to prevent the launch.

[Jawbone54]

The man starves his country while building his military and massive ego. This isn't Hitler. Hitler would be disgusted by this man. Kim Jong-il doesn't even like his "own kind."

Kerrigan's cartoon post is great, by the way. Laughed out loud.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

When I got all upset and said that we need to take this psychopath (Kim) seriously all the Lefties said, "No, let's just use diplomacy and ignore him."

Why do you think your administration resorts to diplomacy instead of force (not just what you fuzzily call `lefties' is in favor of this approach)?

[moodymonster]

Attacking NK would make China feel even more surrounded on the East. Not to mention loss of life and the cost + occupying another country.

I like the idea put forward by Hitchens, in that we make it known to North Koreans that if they get out of NK they will be welcomed into other countries - there's only ~23 million of them, and there's a lot of countries in the world. If we give its weapons scientist massive incentives to leave.

I think China's support for NK is very much the key- without China's support NK would be much weaker. As Hitchens puts forward, China's support is down to not wanting millions of NK refugees streaming across their borders if NK collapses. However if they were to withdraw support now, would NK turn around and threaten China with its new toys.

[OreoCookie]

NK is pretty much a nuisance for China already.
When NK was very uncooperative in certain negotiations last year (?), China shut down a few pipelines to NK for `maintenance'. Naturally, NK didn't know anything about it and the pipelines were suddenly back online when the North Korean leadership started talking again.

A forceful reunification would be very costly, North Korea has one million in arms. Without proper support from South Korea and China, this options seems very, shall we say, unfeasible. Currently South Korea opts for a peaceful reunification and I don't think China wants to get involved into an armed conflict with North Korea. Especially since we cannot exclude the possibility that NK has some nuclear warheads. Even if they don't threaten Hawai, China, South Korea and Japan are right around the corner ...

[Landos Mustache]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

And the headlines for the past, say, 3 days?

Never say them say that no. Link?

[Moderator]

Originally Posted by Kevin

All this is is a bunch of chest pounding and muscle flexing.

And so are the tests

Yep..took a page right outta GW's book. Yeehaw cowboy.

[Kerrigan]

Since when did GW fire a nuclear missile, aimed at a democracy no less?

[Kevin]

Kerrigan just recognize it for what it is.

Hyperbole.

[lurkalot]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Since when did GW fire a nuclear missile, aimed at a democracy no less?

Are you serious?

The United States regularly tests missiles, including those that are capable of delivering nuclear weapons.

From a June 2, 2006 article posted on the Space war website "Ground controllers acquired telemetry data with the S-Band Mobile Array Telemetry antenna as the unarmed missile traveled approximately 5,100 nautical miles from Vandenberg Air Force Base to a predetermined target in the Pacific Ocean near the island of Guam."
Link

Tha's a missile with approximately the same range as the North Korean Taepodon II. The US also frequently launches them towards -roughly- the same area of the globe as the one -apparently- selected by the North Koreans...

Do you want to know the exact date a -nuclear capable- missile was launched by the United States in an armed conflict that actually killed people?

The United States relies on military power projection and use of actual force for a substantial amount of its foreign policy.

Not that incredibly different from what passes for North Korean "diplomacy".