[macfantn]

looks like it'll be $229 it's certainly priced right.

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/portable-...srp-202066.php

[Gossamer]

Of course not. Until there's a major paradigm change, the current leader will most likely stay as such.

[macfantn]

i certainly hope so, i am not a fan of microsoft.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by macfantn

looks like it'll be $229 it's certainly priced right.

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/portable-...srp-202066.php

Apple isn't dumb. I doubt they'll sit around very long doing nothing.

[Dakar]

Dumb question and at the very least it should have been poll.

[C.A.T.S. CEO]

no.

[icruise]

I think Microsoft HAD to make it lower in price than the iPod to even have a chance with most people, but price alone will not do it.

[slpdLoad]

Not even if they made silhouette ads for it.

[ironknee]

they will sell a few million. microsurf diehards...let's see what the vista influence will be (good or bad)

apple has many things up their sleeves i'm sure...it's only september

also, will the zune be cool?

[Kerrigan]

I honestly think it's up in the air. I have a feeling that Zune v2.0 will be fantastic in terms of its features and size, but will people want it? MS is capable of making excellent hardware but they've never made anything stylish or sexy before, which could be a problem since the appeal of the iPod is that it's a fashion accessory.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

I honestly think it's up in the air. I have a feeling that Zune v2.0 will be fantastic in terms of its features and size, but will people want it? MS is capable of making excellent hardware but they've never made anything stylish or sexy before, which could be a problem since the appeal of the iPod is that it's a fashion accessory.

You know, it's a lot like the Dell DJ. Originally the Dell DJ did ok, but it only sold for a short time until Apple turned their sites on it and blew it away.

The Zune will be the same thing. It might sell ok this Christimas, but it's against a giant. Once Apple turns their attention to it, it won't last long.

[OAW]

Originally Posted by C.A.T.S. CEO

no.

Hell to the no!

OAW

[davesimondotcom]

Apple has the advantage of being entrenched, having a very good hardware + software system and produce very good, simple, easy-to-use products.

Microsoft has the advantage of being able to throw money at this thing until they get some success. However, Zune will prove to be too complex, I think, for most people.

I'm a believer that sometimes it's better to produce a product that doesn't do everything, but does what it does well. Sure, iPods don't have WiFi, etc., but what they do, they do very well.

[Mastrap]

It is incredibly hard, in any market, to dethrone the market leader. Apple will have to make some really stupid mistakes to be threatened by the Zune.

[Googer-Giger]

A world ruled by Microsoft would be, wait, nevermind. Got my fingers crossed, some of those noobs seemed excited.

[Velocity211]

will the zune dethrone the ipod?

Never

[jaydon34]

I'm not a real big fan of microsoft but if it's anything like the xbox 360's hardware and software integration we might have a problem. I could see a bunch of teenagers swapping tunes from thier zunes over wifi. Microsoft tying that whole social aspect of sharing and swapping has the power to create another myspace like cult. Look at it this way if the youth supports it. The zune will be a major success as with all the other poorly designed things Myspace, Sidekicks ect.

[MaxPower2k3]

Originally Posted by jaydon34

I'm not a real big fan of microsoft but if it's anything like the xbox 360's hardware and software integration we might have a problem. I could see a bunch of teenagers swapping tunes from thier zunes over wifi. Microsoft tying that whole social aspect of sharing and swapping has the power to create another myspace like cult. Look at it this way if the youth supports it. The zune will be a major success as with all the other poorly designed things Myspace, Sidekicks ect.

except that won't happen. well, it might at first, but once people realize that the songs their friends give them are only good for 3 listens over 3 days, and then they have to pay for it to keep listening, i think the whole wifi feature will lose its appeal.

edit: myspace is a free exchange of information, and has strong community aspects. the Zune's wifi is not, and does not. it's a 1-to-1 thing (i.e., you have to be standing in front of the person you get music from; you can't, say, go online at a hotspot and find someone else with similar music taste to send you a new song). The sidekick is a communication tool. the zune is not. it's just a marginally easier way for your friend to say "hey, check out this song" and hand you his earbuds.

[icruise]

Originally Posted by MaxPower2k3

edit: myspace is a free exchange of information, and has strong community aspects. the Zune's wifi is not, and does not. it's a 1-to-1 thing (i.e., you have to be standing in front of the person you get music from; you can't, say, go online at a hotspot and find someone else with similar music taste to send you a new song). The sidekick is a communication tool. the zune is not. it's just a marginally easier way for your friend to say "hey, check out this song" and hand you his earbuds.

Not now, no. But I think it's pretty clear that the Zune in its current form (or should I say, the form it will take when it's actually shipping) is still a work in progress. They are talking about somehow integrating it with Xbox Live, which might in fact be similar to what you described. I think the current song-sharing use of wi-fi isn't really the purpose of the feature -- it's more of a placeholder until they can work out what else they are going to do with it.

[Lateralus]

I'm not weighing in on the quality of Zune as a product, since I don't think it really matters.

There's been plenty of times where Apple and MS have battled for a market spot, and MS has traditionally won by doing their usual undercutting and such. But that's always been with software. Hardware is completely different game as far as costs.

With the iPod/iTunes wave, Apple has taken a combination of the tactics that allowed MS to succeed in the past and the pinache Apple has had for decades that's always kept it alive and they've essentially created a pop culture revolution. That's hard to break, for anybody.

You'd think MS would just sell the Zune at a huge loss in order to eat away at Apple's share, just as they've done before. But like I said, this is hardware this time around, and the playing field isn't even; Apple's volume discounts are through the roof, making Apple's cost to produce much lower than Microsoft's initial cost to produce, meaning it's Apple who can set the pricing bar. And based on what I've read of the actual costs to produce both the iPod line and the Zune, Apple can set it far lower than Micrsoft is actually capable of going.

It's just like with the Xbox and Xbox 360; Microsoft couldn't throw their weight around quite the same way they've always done in the software world because costs to produce are much less within their control. Because of that, they've had to compete in the console arena in slow, calculated steps. They've had to deliver a competitive product at a competitive price and actually work to drive interest in it.

If they have any intention of seriously eating into Apple's portable music player share, they're gonna have to do the same thing. And even if they're committed to doing it, it'll still take a while for any gains to show and even then I don't think Apple has any real chance of losing control of the field.

Regardless of what the marketshares end up looking like a year or so down the line, having another potential gorilla in the game will keep Apple on their toes and prevent them from exerting the same types of tactics that we've all always hated Microsoft for.

If Apple wants to maintain their position, they're gonna have to do it competitively with consecutively better products and lowered pricing. And that's a good thing for everybody.

[jckalen]

I wonder if its wi-fi feature will also leave it vulnerable to viruses... something microsoft is rather lousy about.

The brown one reminds me of 70's electronics, but that seems about right coming from 70's uber-geek Gates.

[Big Mac]

Who's going to want such a poorly name product? Granted, "iPod" didn't seem like a stellar name initially, but who's going to go for a Zune? And their music service is called Urge? It just seems derivative and lame, like much of what M$ does. That new price point may attract some people, but once they find out about the limitations of the device, any allure it had will dissipate rapidly.

[Dakar]

I always thought the word pod had an alien feel to it. Unless you're big fan of peas.

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by Big Mac

Who's going to want such a poorly name product? Granted, "iPod" didn't seem like a stellar name initially, but who's going to go for a Zune? And their music service is called Urge? It just seems derivative and lame, like much of what M$ does. That new price point may attract some people, but once they find out about the limitations of the device, any allure it had will dissipate rapidly.

Like jaydon said, I think this device is being targeted at teenagers and younger, and they're picking names that their focus groups think the kids will go for. Teens and younger (The marketdroids have a word for kids who are not quite teenagers -- "tweens") are an ideal target audience to market to, because they're very suceptible to peer pressure, all of their income is disposable, and their parents buy them stuff to make them happy/shut them up all the time. That is, they're an ideal market if you have no soul, but we are talking about Microsoft here.

The WiFi aspect makes a lot more sense when you look at a school bus or a lunchroom. There are ample opportunities for a schoolkid to share tunes one-on-one with another schoolkid during the day, then take their Zune home and listen to the song there. There is also the potential for parents to give their kids "allowances" so that they can buy whatever they want through the service, and of course they'll want to buy whatever their friends are listening to.

Ultimately, I think what will kill the Zune is what jckalen alluded to: this platform is simply ripe for viruses. And any product that the cool kids can use to look cooler will be a target for the geeks to sabotage to gain more geek cred. Microsoft better make sure the code for this is bullet-proof, since once a device gains a reputation as being virus-ridden, it will be hard to sell the devices themselves, much less any service associated with it.

[MaxPower2k3]

Originally Posted by Dork.

Microsoft better make sure the code for this is bullet-proof, since once a device gains a reputation as being virus-ridden, it will be hard to sell the devices themselves, much less any service associated with it.

[tboparis]

I hope the zune won't beat the iPod its depressing enough to see all these people using pc running microsoft.

[olePigeon]

A few things are certain:

1. Microsoft will integrate "Zune" media player (if it isn't already WMP) in Windows, then advertise how it's the #1 Music store/player after only 1 day on the market.
2. A "bug" will creap up in Windows that prevents iTunes from working
3. Dell will bundle Zune players with PC purchases
4. The XBox crowd and Microsoft fans will buy it up left and right. Microsoft will use the trickle system it used for XBox to give the impression that it's too popular for them to keep in stock.
5. An unprecedented, record amount of money will be spent on marketing Zune; an amount that will capsize the marketing effort used for the Windows 95 launch.

[jaydon34]

Originally Posted by MaxPower2k3

except that won't happen. well, it might at first, but once people realize that the songs their friends give them are only good for 3 listens over 3 days, and then they have to pay for it to keep listening, i think the whole wifi feature will lose its appeal.

edit: myspace is a free exchange of information, and has strong community aspects. the Zune's wifi is not, and does not. it's a 1-to-1 thing (i.e., you have to be standing in front of the person you get music from; you can't, say, go online at a hotspot and find someone else with similar music taste to send you a new song). The sidekick is a communication tool. the zune is not. it's just a marginally easier way for your friend to say "hey, check out this song" and hand you his earbuds.

I understand what your saying but what you fail to realize is that microsoft has the money to tie everything all together. Just like they did with the xbox and then the 360. From what I heard the 3 listen quota will only apply to DRM files such as stuff purchase from their music store. Stuff that you personally rip from cd's the quota will not apply I assume.

Then again I'm far from a microsoft fanboy I just feel they have the ability to make a good product. Ex. pocket pc are used in the Apple store to make purchases, how ironic. Truth is that most apple users wont run out and get a Zune being that their not supporting Macs at launch. But hey if it turns out to be a good product then I'll scoop one up....... but only time will tell.

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by MaxPower2k3

Microsoft gained their desktop dominance before viruses really hit the mainstream. Now, if kids get a virus on their Zune that gets transferred to their home PC, parents will notice and be less likely to support the service.

I don't think even Microsoft can get away with selling secutiry as an add-on on a device like a Zune.

[Gossamer]

Originally Posted by jaydon34

From what I heard the 3 listen quota will only apply to DRM files such as stuff purchase from their music store. Stuff that you personally rip from cd's the quota will not apply I assume.

Originally Posted by http://www.medialoper.com/hot-topics/music/zunes-big-innovation-viral-drm/

Zune accomplishes this amazingly stupid feat by wrapping shared music in a proprietary layer of DRM, regardless of what format the original content may be in. If Microsoft’s claims are to be believed, this on-the-fly DRM will be seamless and automatic - which must be some kind of first for Microsoft.

What Microsoft has created is a new form of viral DRM. Zune will intentionally infect your music with the DRM virus before passing it along to one of your friends. After three listens the poor song dies a horrible DRM enabled death. Talk about innovation.

[mitchell_pgh]

Why the Zune will fail:
- Everyone knows that the Apple iPod as THE music player to have... not Dell, Toshiba, Rio, Microsoft
- The iPod/iTunes marriage is designed for non-technical people.
- The wireless thing is simply confusing.
- From the perspective of an computer outsider, the "listen 3 times" for DRM music sounds like a scam... or will be treated as a broken system.
- I'm still waiting to hear if they have the same offerings as the iTunes Store
- The DRM from Microsoft sounds like another area of confusion. Apparently it's not PlaysForSure compliant.

I realize the Zune has a few cool features (from a technical standpoint)... but I'm not convinced it will have nearly the penetration the iPod has had. I see 50 year old people on the metro with iPods. The iPod is also very female friendly which is impressive. Will Microsoft be able to pull that off?

Time will tell.

[itai195]

I think Zune will definitely at least steal a chunk of marketshare from the iPod. I don't think the current model will dominate the market. I think part of the success of the iPod resulted from consumers feeling comfortable with Apple's brand. A digital music player is really a technically complex gizmo to most people, and I don't know that the Microsoft brand conveys ease of use, fun, coolness, etc.

That said, I suspect Microsoft is taking a similar approach to what they did with the Xbox: introduce a trojan horse into the market, grab a small chunk of the market, and incrementally improve. Unfortunately I think Microsoft does have an advantage in that they also make the operating system 95% of consumers use and thus can do a lot more with software integration than Apple could. It's Zune 2.0 that Apple may have to worry about. Anyone who is familiar with the improvements in Xbox 360 vs the original Xbox knows that Microsoft is capable of doing really good work when they put in the effort.

[Y3a]

The poop brown junker with a non-stadard interface will fail. Just like all other MS products, it's quicky and poorly thought out by low grade flunkies who just want to go home and get stoned again. Not exactly fast, clear thinkers, or even 'cool' .

[Obi Wan's Ghost]

Na man it would have to be $50 to compete.

[Googer-Giger]

Originally Posted by Dork.

Microsoft gained their desktop dominance before viruses really hit the mainstream. Now, if kids get a virus on their Zune that gets transferred to their home PC, parents will notice and be less likely to support the service.

I don't think even Microsoft can get away with selling secutiry as an add-on on a device like a Zune.

Maybe not Microsoft, but Norton will.

[Salty]

I think the Zune has the potential to not be an intense failure... though it does have the potential to be that too. I don't think it will be hugely successful. Though I was also hoping the Xbox would be a bigger failure than it ended up being too.

[KeriVit]

Stay on top of the competiition and it's all good

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Salty

I think the Zune has the potential to not be an intense failure... though it does have the potential to be that too. I don't think it will be hugely successful. Though I was also hoping the Xbox would be a bigger failure than it ended up being too.

I think the XBox is different than the Zune. The Xbox had a killer app for one. The Zune? Not so much. We haven't seen the Zune player software, but I bet it won't be that good. The Zune's Wifi? Wouldn't do me much good, as my friends would need Zunes.

It'll be a cult following in a small group, like the Dell DJ, but it won't be long until the Zune meets a similar fate as the Dell DJ. Not to mention Real Media is apparently launching it's Zune competitor. We'll just wait for the iPod wannabes to kill each other.

[ChasingApple]

It wont do well at all as a matter of fact. Everyone and thier mother knows about the iPod, everyone loves them for the coolness factor. What is the zune bringing to the table that is new? Nothing. People love iTunes, they love the iPod, they love Apple for making the damn thing (me as well!), and they are NOT fans of MS.

Until someone comes out with something that is innovative and new, the iPod will reign supreme, period.

[houstonmacbro]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom

Apple has the advantage of being entrenched, having a very good hardware + software system and produce very good, simple, easy-to-use products.

Microsoft has the advantage of being able to throw money at this thing until they get some success. However, Zune will prove to be too complex, I think, for most people.

I'm a believer that sometimes it's better to produce a product that doesn't do everything, but does what it does well. Sure, iPods don't have WiFi, etc., but what they do, they do very well.

don't forget, microsoft has very deep pockets. much deeper than apple's.

that being said i think it could be up in the air. it will definitely be an interesting fight to watch.

my thought is that there will be two camps. i know there are lots of people that think iPods are 'sh*t' (their words, not mine). i think they will NEVER like anything apple does and therefore will settle for a knockoff. who knows? who cares?

i do not think the zune will be as 'cool' as the iPod and therefore apple will still have the edge.

[Eriamjh]

When does Zune come out?

[jckalen]

It will ship during the "holiday season" this year, Microsoft said, soon enough that "users will be able to put it on their holiday buying list," said Matt Jubelirer, a Microsoft product manager for the Zune.

"We won't be undercut by Apple," Jubelirer said, when asked to clarify the price of the player.

wonder how it will do against the competing PS3 and nintendo wii when it comes to "must have" gadgets.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by houstonmacbro

don't forget, microsoft has very deep pockets. much deeper than apple's.

Right, but you realize Microsoft is in an awkward situation here. In a very Sony-esk move, one of their biggest competitors is themselves with their own PlaysForSure product.

You're having Microsoft throwing around money to compete with itself.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Icruise

I think the current song-sharing use of wi-fi isn't really the purpose of the feature -- it's more of a placeholder until they can work out what else they are going to do with it.

And that quality is precisely while it's not a benefit but a detriment to the Zune's market success.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally Posted by itai195

I think Zune will definitely at least steal a chunk of marketshare from the iPod. I don't think the current model will dominate the market. I think part of the success of the iPod resulted from consumers feeling comfortable with Apple's brand. A digital music player is really a technically complex gizmo to most people, and I don't know that the Microsoft brand conveys ease of use, fun, coolness, etc.

I may be wrong, but I don't see the Zune making anywhere near the market penetration the iPod has.

IMHO, all the press surrounding the Zune is a perfect example of the press making news.

I'll make my final judgement when:
1) The Zune is really shipping.
3) Microsoft shows their equivalent of iTunes (that works seamlessly with the Zune)
4) Microsoft shows their equivalent of the iTunes Store (that works seamlessly with the Zune)

The iPod has a 5 year head start, a proven platform (iPod -> iTunes -> iTunes Store), a loyal user base, and the brand to maintain a dominance. They also offer fantastic products.

Originally Posted by itai195

That said, I suspect Microsoft is taking a similar approach to what they did with the Xbox: introduce a trojan horse into the market, grab a small chunk of the market, and incrementally improve. Unfortunately I think Microsoft does have an advantage in that they also make the operating system 95% of consumers use and thus can do a lot more with software integration than Apple could. It's Zune 2.0 that Apple may have to worry about. Anyone who is familiar with the improvements in Xbox 360 vs the original Xbox knows that Microsoft is capable of doing really good work when they put in the effort.

Why I disagree:
- What "trojan horse" I'm not seeing anything unique with the Zune. Perhaps I'm missing something.
- iTunes and the iTunes Store works with nearly 98%+ of the desktop market (Sorry Linux)
- We may need to worry about the Zune 2.0, but Microsoft may need to worry about the iPod G6 and even the iTV.
- Microsoft has yet to make money off of the original Xbox (and most likely never will)
- The Xbox 360 also isn't making money... and Microsoft says that next year it may be in the black with this product, but that's coming from Microsoft.
- The Zune will lose money for the next 2 years (says Microsoft). I'm just wondering how long they will let it bleed money before they kill it.

IMHO, Microsoft is doing what Microsoft does. They look at other companies doing well with a piece of software or hardware and try duplicate it. Unfortunately the juggernaut isn't as nimble as many of the other companies, so they are slow to market, aren't able to adjust to change and generally fail the end user.

[mitchell_pgh]

For the record, I don't think the Zune will be an instant failure. I just think it will be "yet another" Microsoft project that never really materializes.

Many of their products don't fail, they just fade away... or continue to mutate until they are unrecognizable

[exca1ibur]

Nope it wont do much damage, if any to the iPod. The biggest factor that no one talks of is the third party market of the iPod. There are thousands of accessories for iPods for just about everything. Home audio, Alarm clocks, speakers, car audio, etc. Can I hook a Zune to the touchscreen in my car and control it? For that matter can I hook it to my Mac? The iPod pretty much has the music store and all the other options the Zune has but the major factor is the third party market. You can pretty much add other features if you need them. FM tranmitter, car charger, If Wi-Fi is a big feature, I'm sure you'll see Griffin or Belkin have an option for it within a few months.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally Posted by exca1ibur

Nope it wont do much damage, if any to the iPod. The biggest factor that no one talks of is the third party market of the iPod. There are thousands of accessories for iPods for just about everything. Home audio, Alarm clocks, speakers, car audio, etc. Can I hook a Zune to the touchscreen in my car and control it? For that matter can I hook it to my Mac? The iPod pretty much has the music store and all the other options the Zune has but the major factor is the third party market. You can pretty much add other features if you need them. FM tranmitter, car charger, If Wi-Fi is a big feature, I'm sure you'll see Griffin or Belkin have an option for it within a few months.

To add to one thing you touched on...

The iPod has 95% of what the Zune has... today.

[real]

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh

For the record, I don't think the Zune will be an instant failure. I just think it will be "yet another" Microsoft project that never really materializes.

Many of their products don't fail, they just fade away... or continue to mutate until they are unrecognizable

could not agree more.


MS+Zune wont fail it's not going to do anything. Just like every other music player on the market. What most mp3 making companies have not realized is it not the ipod its itunes.

real

[itai195]

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh

I may be wrong, but I don't see the Zune making anywhere near the market penetration the iPod has.

In the short term, with this first generation product, I completely agree. I think where Apple needs to be concerned is with later generation products if Microsoft continues to take the market seriously.

Why I disagree:
- What "trojan horse" I'm not seeing anything unique with the Zune. Perhaps I'm missing something.
- iTunes and the iTunes Store works with nearly 98%+ of the desktop market (Sorry Linux)
- We may need to worry about the Zune 2.0, but Microsoft may need to worry about the iPod G6 and even the iTV.
- Microsoft has yet to make money off of the original Xbox (and most likely never will)
- The Xbox 360 also isn't making money... and Microsoft says that next year it may be in the black with this product, but that's coming from Microsoft.
- The Zune will lose money for the next 2 years (says Microsoft). I'm just wondering how long they will let it bleed money before they kill it.

I don't know enough about Microsoft's strategy with the Zune, but I suspect they will apply a strategy that has arguably worked with the Xbox. The 360 isn't making money yet, few consoles do in their first year, but I think Microsoft has set themselves up nicely to grab a major chunk of marketshare from Sony this generation.