[art_director]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

I don't participate in here enough to worry about psychos.

I stay out of the more volatile threads anyway.

Bottom line is we all leave little bread crumbs about ourselves all over the internet. When someone has enough inspiration they can dig them up and screw our happiness. Believe me, when the damage is done the government isn't there to help you sort it out.

Last month I had a credit card used fraudulently. Fortunately it was caught before too much damage was done. It was a huge hassle to clean up and quite the pain in the azz. And I take extreme care in protecting my stuff. It's just that in this age we live in...

[ironknee]

so do you think haggard's kids are teased in school? how old are they?

and his wife...either she's mad as hell or is she still swimming in da nile...

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

Uh, that's what the site's for.

Or am I supposed to be scared that people have connected Dakar with a graphic artist in PA?

That's what I thought. I know the people there, so I dump a few sigs and geral images in that guy's folder on thier web server.

They're a repair depot, nothing fancy. They do very little retail.

[Kerrigan]

Originally Posted by ironknee 

so do you think haggard's kids are teased in school? how old are they?

and his wife...either she's mad as hell or is she still swimming in da nile...

I feel really sorry for his family. This could potentially wreck their lives for a good number of years.

Good thing they're rich tho. (Aren't they?)

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by ironknee 

so do you think haggard's kids are teased in school? how old are they?

and his wife...either she's mad as hell or is she still swimming in da nile...

The kids are probably in a Christian school, so less teasing.

The wife... I'd say "mad as hell".

[Kerrigan]

Originally Posted by MacNStein 

The kids are probably in a Christian school, so less teasing.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. My uncle married a woman from Latin America and he sent his children to a reputable Catholic school, and they were teased to no end about being mixed race, to the point where he had to withdraw them and move them to a normal high school.

I'm not saying Christians are biggots, just that children can behave just as badly in any setting.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

I'm not saying Christians are biggots, just that children can behave just as badly in any setting.

Kids can be brutal.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

I wouldn't be so sure about that. My uncle married a woman from Latin America and he sent his children to a reputable Catholic school, and they were teased to no end about being mixed race, to the point where he had to withdraw them and move them to a normal high school.

I'm not saying Christians are biggots, just that children can behave just as badly in any setting.

In protestant schools, the student body and classes are smaller, the teachers have more control. Plus, they deal out more discipline (and corporal punishment isn't unheard of). I know, I used to attend a small Christian school from 9-12, the teachers ruled with an iron fist.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by art_director 

The way people throw around opinions here and, with some posters and their tempers (present company not included) it just seems like an uneccessary risk. You know?

Oh, that's bullsh*t. You intended it as a threat, otherwise you wouldn't have brought it up.

That's just sad really, very sad.

[Dark Helmet]

So really, what else is there to talk about on this subject? He admitted it, everyone here that didn't believe it before is just going to make excuses for it and when that doesn't work they will just try to turn it on you.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

So really, what else is there to talk about on this subject? He admitted it, everyone here that didn't believe it before is just going to make excuses for it.

No, I won't.

To be honest, I did not believe it was true.
But I'm making no excuses, it's a sad day, and a sad story, and he and all Christians have to deal with it. Did not help the Christians reputation at all.

But there is no excuse.

-t

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by what_the_heck 

No, I won't.

To be honest, I did not believe it was true.
But I'm making no excuses, it's a sad day, and a sad story, and he and all Christians have to deal with it. Did not help the Christians reputation at all.

But there is no excuse.

-t

Ok we'll just leave the personal attacks to MacNStein then. The more "you're pathetic" from him the more it makes this guy less gay and a liar.

[ironknee]

i think he's rich (?)

i heard that he and his family left town today...man that'a gotta be 10 years of therapy for the kids...so sad

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

Ok we'll just leave the personal attacks to MacNStein then. The more "you're pathetic" from him the more it makes this guy less gay and a liar.

Don't blame me because you cretins act like a pack of piranha with PMS.

[hey!_Zeus]

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by hey!_Zeus 

WTF?

[hey!_Zeus]

Originally Posted by Rumor 

WTF?

WTF?

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by MacNStein 

Don't blame me because you cretins act like a pack of piranha with PMS.

Wow such fancy words and imagination.

They do well when trying ones best to distract from the topic on hand.

[hey!_Zeus]

[French crétin, from French dialectal, deformed and mentally retarded person found in certain Alpine valleys, from Vulgar Latin *christinus, Christian, human being, poor fellow, from Latin Chrstinus, Christian. See Christian.]

He called you a christian. I'd turn him in for an infarction.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

Ok we'll just leave the personal attacks to MacNStein then. The more "you're pathetic" from him the more it makes this guy less gay and a liar.

Hmm you do actions. He claims you did said actions. You claim then he is personally attacking.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by art_director 

So, to recap:

Guy grows up gay.

Guy can't deal with being gay so he creates a church to tell people, 'Fags are sinners.'

Guy plays off the faithful, the old and the sick to get money from gay bashing agenda.

Guy builds big, wealthy church on gay bashing agenda.

Guy, now with power, likes to get a little on a regular basis -- and not from the wife, if you know what I'm sayin'.

Guy needs to fuel his sexual escapdes with drugs so he turns to crystal meth.

Guy is seen on TV preaching about those 'fags.' One viewer is the 'fag' he's been porking.

Guy's longtime prostitute blows the whistle 'cause he's tired of blowinbg something else.

Guy, now busted, lies, lies and lies to get out of it.

Guy gets whacked (not what you might be thinking) from gay bashing congregation for being just that -- gay and hypocritical, and a drug abuser.

Guy comes clean. Tells truth. People cry. Troll on MacNN defends him even after he admits do being what he hates.

Leaves a person scratching their head.

That's one possible interpretation of events. Here's another. I point this out because it's rather likely that this guy's flock will see things this way, and it's possible that he sees it this way himself...

We all have our own temptations, our own sins that we find hard to resist. Many churches call these "our own crosses to bear." Early in this man's life, it becomes evident that his own cross will be an attraction to persons of the same gender. He tries to fight this temptation. Somewhere along the line, he gets it into his head that removing the temptation is the best way to do this, and so he tries all sorts of crackpot treatments. These fail, as they do for most, but it leaves him disheartened.

In another approach to his struggle, he founds a church, where he can preach about God and thus (in theory) remain close to Him. But his church becomes powerful and influential, and with power and money for his church comes power and money for him. Drunk on these things, he turns his mind towards his money and power and away from God, as wealth often does to a person. In the midst of this, he gives up on his fight. It is at this point that he becomes a hypocrite, not because he feels temptation (as we all do in our own ways ), but because he has ceased to struggle against it yet he exhorts others to fight.

One sin leads to others: lies to cover it up from others, drugs to cover it up from himself, and so on and so forth. It's an old pattern, one we've seen many times before. Now, as often happens with hypocrites of all stripes, he has become completely corrupted. But what goes around, comes around: secrets have a way of not staying secret. One of the men he hired sees one of his sermons, and he knows the hypocrisy behind it. He doesn't subscribe to the same ideals that the preacher claims to, but he is still incensed by the hypocrisy (even if he sees it in a slightly different way), and he uncovers it.

First, of course, the preacher lies: it's what he has become accustomed to doing. Eventually, however, the lies catch up with him, and he's forced to come clean. Meanwhile, his church, seeing that they've been led by a hypocrite, sentences him according to his own morality by dismissing him from his leadership position.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by Millennium 

We all have our own temptations, our own sins that we find hard to resist.

That's the root of the problem right there. Peoples attitude that being gay is a temptation and a sin.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

That's the root of the problem right there. Religious Peoples attitude that being gay is a temptation and a sin.

Fixed. While one can be opposed to homosexuality for non-religious reasons, only the religious see sexuality in terms of sin.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

That's the root of the problem right there. Peoples attitude that being gay is a temptation and a sin.

Not quite. "Being gay," by such beliefs, is a temptation. Sex between persons of the same gender is a sin. Two different things.

I've found, however, that this seems to be the hardest thing for persons on The Other Side to understand about this belief, as though they can't concieve of a difference between these two things at all. I think this is probably a Sapir-Whorf problem: although the word 'homosexuality' initially only meant the latter, it has come to mean the former as well.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by Millennium 

Not quite. "Being gay," by such beliefs, is a temptation. Sex between persons of the same gender is a sin. Two different things.

Stop splitting hairs.

[Kerrigan]

In one scene of the film [Jesus Camp], which follows a group of children as they develop evangelical Christian beliefs, directors Heidi Ewing and Rachel Grady visit Haggard's 14,000-member New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colo. He tells the vast audience, "We don't have to debate about what we should think about homosexual activity. It's written in the Bible."

Then Haggard looks into the camera and says kiddingly: "I think I know what you did last night," drawing laughs from the crowd. "If you send me a thousand dollars, I won't tell your wife."

Later, another joke for the filmmakers: "If you use any of this, I'll sue you."

What a douche! He's gonna look sooo ridiculous when that movie comes out.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Millennium 

Not quite. "Being gay," by such beliefs, is a temptation. Sex between persons of the same gender is a sin. Two different things.

Kind of like the difference between wanting to kill someone and actually killing someone?

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

Stop splitting hairs.

Splitting hairs? The difference between love and sex is splitting hairs?

Has our society truly fallen that far, that we don't even know the difference between love and sex anymore?

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Kind of like the difference between wanting to kill someone and actually killing someone?

I have no intention of equating sex between persons of the same gender and murder, which I fear I will be taken as doing if I answer this question at all. Nevertheless, that's the basic concept: desire versus action.

[hyteckit]

What's it about Christianity that tempts Christians to gay sex?

I'm never tempted to have gay sex. I'm not even interested in trying it.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Millennium 

I have no intention of equating sex between persons of the same gender and murder, which I fear I will be taken as doing if I answer this question at all. Nevertheless, that's the basic concept: desire versus action.

Sorry. That wasn't my intention. First sin that came to mind that many people desire but few take action on.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

What's it about Christianity that tempts Christians to gay sex?

I'm never tempted to have gay sex. I'm not even interested in trying it.

I already said that not everyone is. I'm not either. People are different; they have their own minds, their own hopes, their own dreams, and yes, their own temptations. Some are sexual in nature and some aren't, just as some sins are sexual in nature and some aren't. I have, perhaps, been fortunate that my own major temptations aren't sexual in nature, but this does not mean that I am not tempted by sin at all. I'm just tempted by other sins: I'm no better or worse, merely different. It sounds as though you are the same as me, at least as far as this goes.

So what is it that tempts some Christians to gay sex? The same thing that tempts some non-Christians, I suppose, whether that's biological, environmental, or something else entirely. As far as that goes, Christians are no different from anyone else. The only difference is a matter of recognizing temptation for what it is, and recognizing the need to resist temptation in whatever forms it might come.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by Millennium 

I already said that not everyone is. I'm not either. People are different; they have their own minds, their own hopes, their own dreams, and yes, their own temptations. Some are sexual in nature and some aren't, just as some sins are sexual in nature and some aren't. I have, perhaps, been fortunate that my own major temptations aren't sexual in nature, but this does not mean that I am not tempted by sin at all. I'm just tempted by other sins: I'm no better or worse, merely different. It sounds as though you are the same as me, at least as far as this goes.

So what is it that tempts some Christians to gay sex? The same thing that tempts some non-Christians, I suppose, whether that's biological, environmental, or something else entirely. As far as that goes, Christians are no different from anyone else. The only difference is a matter of recognizing temptation for what it is, and recognizing the need to resist temptation in whatever forms it might come.

Still working on the assumption that gay sex is a temptation to be resisted? I guess within the framework of Christian theological thought it is. But for those who are not Christian or not religious, gay sex might be just sex. Of course, that fundamental difference in intellectual approach--"gay sex is a temptation" versus "gay sex is just sex" makes almost any discourse on the subject impossible. If those debating an issue can't agree on a definition of the subject matter under debate, how can their be any logical discussion at all.? It winds up being just arguments about the assumptions and not about the issue being debated.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by dcmacdaddy 

Still working on the assumption that gay sex is a temptation to be resisted?

According to Church, all sex outside of marriage is to be resisted.

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

What's it about Christianity that tempts Christians to gay sex?

Well, they already are taught to love Jesus. And once you love one man, it's easy to love another, I guess. Slippery slope. Jesus is a gateway gay.

[Millennium]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom 

Well, they already are taught to love Jesus. And once you love one man, it's easy to love another, I guess. Slippery slope. Jesus is a gateway gay.

Please tell me you intended the pun there...

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Millennium 

Please tell me you intended the pun there...

He missed the only pun possible: gaytway

-t

[davesimondotcom]

Originally Posted by Millennium 

Please tell me you intended the pun there...

My early-morning humor is almost always punny.

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by davesimondotcom 

Well, they already are taught to love Jesus. And once you love one man, it's easy to love another, I guess. Slippery slope. Jesus is a gateway gay.

Classic!

[art_director]

Originally Posted by MacNStein 

Oh, that's bullsh*t. You intended it as a threat, otherwise you wouldn't have brought it up.

That's just sad really, very sad.

What were you saying about giving people a fair shake? Now you go play judge and jury as to my intentions. You're as big a hypocrite as Mark Foley or Pastor Ted.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by MacNStein 

According to Church, all sex outside of marriage is to be resisted.

That depends upon the church, now doesn't it?

[art_director]

Originally Posted by Millennium 

That's one possible interpretation of events. Here's another. I point this out because it's rather likely that this guy's flock will see things this way, and it's possible that he sees it this way himself...

We all have our own temptations, our own sins that we find hard to resist. Many churches call these "our own crosses to bear." Early in this man's life, it becomes evident that his own cross will be an attraction to persons of the same gender. He tries to fight this temptation. Somewhere along the line, he gets it into his head that removing the temptation is the best way to do this, and so he tries all sorts of crackpot treatments. These fail, as they do for most, but it leaves him disheartened.

In another approach to his struggle, he founds a church, where he can preach about God and thus (in theory) remain close to Him. But his church becomes powerful and influential, and with power and money for his church comes power and money for him. Drunk on these things, he turns his mind towards his money and power and away from God, as wealth often does to a person. In the midst of this, he gives up on his fight. It is at this point that he becomes a hypocrite, not because he feels temptation (as we all do in our own ways ), but because he has ceased to struggle against it yet he exhorts others to fight.

One sin leads to others: lies to cover it up from others, drugs to cover it up from himself, and so on and so forth. It's an old pattern, one we've seen many times before. Now, as often happens with hypocrites of all stripes, he has become completely corrupted. But what goes around, comes around: secrets have a way of not staying secret. One of the men he hired sees one of his sermons, and he knows the hypocrisy behind it. He doesn't subscribe to the same ideals that the preacher claims to, but he is still incensed by the hypocrisy (even if he sees it in a slightly different way), and he uncovers it.

First, of course, the preacher lies: it's what he has become accustomed to doing. Eventually, however, the lies catch up with him, and he's forced to come clean. Meanwhile, his church, seeing that they've been led by a hypocrite, sentences him according to his own morality by dismissing him from his leadership position.

When you get down to it, your interpretation really isn't all that different from mine. Yours just allows for more explanation and rationalization. Mine is brass tacks.

[art_director]

Originally Posted by Millennium 

Has our society truly fallen that far, that we don't even know the difference between love and sex anymore?

In my opinion it has. Fallen that far, I mean.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by art_director 

That depends upon the church, now doesn't it?

No, not if they're Christian.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by art_director 

What were you saying about giving people a fair shake? Now you go play judge and jury as to my intentions. You're as big a hypocrite as Mark Foley or Pastor Ted.

You, and many others on here, have been given enough "fair shakes".

[hey!_Zeus]

Originally Posted by MacNStein 

You, and many others on here, have been given enough "fair shakes".

[Face Ache]

Originally Posted by Millennium 

Has our society truly fallen that far, that we don't even know the difference between love and sex anymore?

We know it - Love is the wife and kids - Sex is Big Rick the hunky male escort.


Is Fabulous President George W. Bush a Fabulous Homosexual? Baptists Are Saving Homosexuals asks what conservative Christians demand to know

[Eug]

Everyone is so quick to call him gay. Why not just call him bi?

Originally Posted by MacNStein 

In protestant schools, the student body and classes are smaller, the teachers have more control. Plus, they deal out more discipline (and corporal punishment isn't unheard of). I know, I used to attend a small Christian school from 9-12, the teachers ruled with an iron fist.

Errr, no. Your specific school may have been like that, but that's a far cry from all North American protestant schools.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by MacNStein 

No, not if they're Christian.

Trouble is no one can agree upon what it is to be a Christian. Naff.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Trouble is no one can agree upon what it is to be a Christian. Naff.

Well, not exactly. There is a definitive example of what a Christian is. However, most people that call themselves Christians wouldn't be able to identify with it.