[passmaster16]

Originally Posted by brokenjago 

I think that this OSs features that have been currently revealed match at least every OS X release so far.

I don't disagree there. However, with the delayed release, coupled with the release of Vista (regardless of the fact that it's crap) will set the stage for high expectations for the October release. I think most will be expecting a bit more from this release than the changes in Panther and Tiger.

The bigger question I'm interested in...Are the "top-secret" features going to be disclosed in the "near final" release at WWDC?

[tgrundke]

So, my guess is that the whole iPhone issue is a red herring. Methinks that the whole "secret new features" is also a red herring and that the fact of the matter is: it's just taking them a lot longer than they thought it would to roll this puppy out.

I find it a bit suspicious that at WWDC they're anticipating to release a "final Beta", but that the finished product won't be available until....October. Three months after the "final" Beta.

This means one of two things:

1) They are introducing some pretty radical new features that are causing these headaches and will require some extensive ironing out;

2) It's just taking them a heluva lot longer than anticipated.

[brokenjago]

The bigger question I'm interested in...Are the "top-secret" features going to be disclosed in the "near final" release at WWDC?

One would hope.

I find it a bit suspicious that at WWDC they're anticipating to release a "final Beta", but that the finished product won't be available until....October. Three months after the "final" Beta.

It's more like 4 months, considering WWDC is at the beginning of June, and they'll probably release it in late October.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by stevesnj 

Unless some were in need for the few new items in Leopard I don't understand why someone is upset that Leopard is second fiddle to the iPhone, Leopard is just a point release of OS X its not like it's OS XI.

That's like saying Xcode 3 or Delicious Library 2 is just a point release. Mac OS X versions start all start with "10." because that's the name of the operating system. They are major revisions, not minor.

[brokenjago]

Oh, by the way, when you asked me to name two Software release dates Apple's missed in the past ten years?

I have one now.

[Xyrrus]

Originally Posted by tgrundke 

So, my guess is that the whole iPhone issue is a red herring. Methinks that the whole "secret new features" is also a red herring and that the fact of the matter is: it's just taking them a lot longer than they thought it would to roll this puppy out.

I find it a bit suspicious that at WWDC they're anticipating to release a "final Beta", but that the finished product won't be available until....October. Three months after the "final" Beta.

This means one of two things:

1) They are introducing some pretty radical new features that are causing these headaches and will require some extensive ironing out;

2) It's just taking them a heluva lot longer than anticipated.

The thought also crossed my mind that maybe the leopard delays really have very little to do with the iPhone. The only reason they mentioned the iPhone in the press release at all is to reassure wall street that "the phone is ok!!!" Its so OK in fact that its their number 1 priority and THATS the reason leopard is late. Believe it or not, it sounds a little better than "well leopard is late because we really screwed up our project management schedule and it just isn't done"

Financial Analysts are used to OS delays, and operating systems are sexy. The iPhone is sexy, and as long as its on track, wall street can handle an OS delay.

-Xy

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by JKT 

I think this is going to have a quite serious negative effect on Mac sales for the next 6 months - I for one am waiting for Leopard to make my purchase and I know that I am not alone.

Switchers won't care unless some fanatic says "wait!". Truly dedicated Mac-heads will understand and waiting for the new OS to "just work" instead of "almost work" won't bother them. It's those of us who have to be on the bleeding edge and like the rush of "maybe it'll crash and I'll send in the first bug report on it" that are really going to be disappointed.

I'm still learning OS X, and I've been messing with it for about 4 years now. Ok, that doesn't sound so bad, right? I'm a computer scientist, a Linux fan, and a computer for the sake of computers kind of guy, and that changes things. There isn't enough time in the day to catalog what is cool and wonderful about 10.4, so why should I really be concerned about waiting a little longer for 10.5?

[Randman]

I'd rather wait and have Apple do a little extra QC on it then release it with any possible bugs.

[xe0]

Truly retarded. But not unexpected.

However - I am anticipating Adobe CS3 more then leopard. So while this news is disappointing, its not a big deal for me personally. Tiger is fine atm.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Only to Apple geeks, who will gripe but buy the thing anyway.

Originally Posted by stevesnj 

Unless some were in need for the few new items in Leopard I don't understand why someone is upset that Leopard is second fiddle to the iPhone, Leopard is just a point release of OS X its not like it's OS XI. Pulling resources off Leopard for the iPhone is a smart move...imagine if the iPhone was delayed until September? The stockholders and Apple buyers would be very upset.

Well, the stockholders weren't happy anyway. AAPL was down a couple of % after hours.

Yeah, it'd be worse if the iPhone was delayed until September, but the point is that it's bound to make a few investors antsy that Apple can't do both at the same time. The question is how antsy. It will be interesting to see what happens tomorrow. Will it stay stable, or will it drop a few more percent?

I suspect it won't drop that much more, but I've been known to be wrong with stocks on several occasions.

Originally Posted by CatOne 

Developers don't need the final copy of Leopard to develop their applications. What they need is a FEATURE COMPLETE copy of Leopard. That is, all the APIs are there, so they can develop. Bugs may be there, some critical, but the good thing about developers working with pre-release builds is that they find the critical API or system problems, so Apple can fix them before Leopard GMs (rather than in, say, 10.5.1 or 10.5.2).

Sure, this stinks, but bottom line is they missed the date -- either because not all the features were in there yet (owing to resources going to the iPhone), or maybe there are too many outstanding bugs to be able to ship a "quality" release by June.

No, it's not the end of the world to miss the date of course. Missing a date because of the iPhone is eye-opening though. It still seems odd to me that they'd cop to that. Perhaps they felt they need to protect themselves by saying... "Yeah, but the iPhone is still on time."

In any case, the good news (for me) is that now the iMac won't be potentially delayed by a late Leopard. (I want to get a new iMac... maybe.) They're gonna have to add the new iMac to 10.4.10 though.

[rubaiyat]

Here's hoping Apple ships an "Intergrated" spellchecker in Leopard.

In fact I hope Leopard doesn't ship for another 5 years so that Apple "can get it right". That'll give Apple till OSX 10.4.23 to not iron out the bugs in Tiger before introducing new ones.

By 2012 Apple will announce it has not just removed computers from its name but will cease shipping them. Nearly all of the Mac fraternity will nod their heads sagely and say this makes absolute sense and frees Apple up to concentrate on the iBathPlug* the ultimate in marketing driven consumerism.

* For those of you not keeping up with recent developments: The iPlug will cost roughly twice as much as a regular bath plug but will only fit a narrow range of USA only bathtubs. Due to its advanced circuitry, and square shape, it will actually only secure 4.9% of the water in the bath. Specially bottled water will be available from Apple Stores that will be 3% wetter. This is a conservative estimate, Apple's tests show it to be up to twice as wet.

Once the dedicated plumbing is in place in 3 years time, it will be possible to "download" the water to your home. At which point all taps in your house will become obsolete. However thanks to an amazing feat of technology an interim attachment will ensure that the new industry standard water, only useable with the iBathPlug, will flow at almost 67% of the rate of the old water. After upgrading every tap and appliance in your house this will increase to 127% faster which will appear twice as fast due to the "amazing feat of technology" being finally eliminated.



Microsoft will now enter the Lingerie market so no-one will notice how long Vista 2 will take to ship.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Well, the stockholders weren't happy anyway. AAPL was down a couple of % after hours.

Yeah, it'd be worse if the iPhone was delayed until September, but the point is that it's bound to make a few investors antsy that Apple can't do both at the same time. The question is how antsy. It will be interesting to see what happens tomorrow. Will it stay stable, or will it drop a few more percent?

I suspect it won't drop that much more, but I've been known to be wrong with stocks on several occasions.

Whenever I see downswings over such fleeting things, I always think, "Hey, time to buy some Apple stock."

[mac128k-1984]

As others have noted, I need CS3 more then I need Leopard, so I'm anxious to get my hands on that then leopard.

[MindFad]

Well, here's hoping that they at least talk about the big secret "wow features" that they didn't discuss last year, to get us pumped for October.

It's a bummer—I like the latest and greatest OS innovations and wizz-band from Apple as much as the next guy—but Tiger is still a more-than-capable OS until October. Life shall go on for another six months.

[Simon]

I'm not surprised at all. The bug list is still very long and only few builds were released lately. And since I never tie my hardware purchases to software releases (why should I worry about having to buy a new OS X for $129 when I just blew $3k on a new Mac?), I'm not affected by this delay at all.

The drama is indeed totally overblown. A bunch of fanbois that just want to see Leopard for the fun of it are now shattered. My condolences. Anybody who's interested in serious work would rather have a complete and well tested OS (remember the 10.0 disaster?) than a release on day X. Obviously I'm looking forward to new Leopard features too, but since Tiger is a stable and working OS, I'd rather stick with it longer if that means Leopard will be a worthy replacement.

All this whiny blathering about how the Mac isn't Apple's focus anymore is outright hysterical. The iPhone has been hyped to insane levels and obviously it needs to be near perfect when it's released. The iPhone relies on OS X know-how; if anything Macs and Mac OS X will benefit from iPhone development. With so much money in the bank, Apple would be stupid not to invest into new market segments. Apple can afford to take risks now.

And finally, why should a 2% stock decline worry us? It's an opportunity to buy Apple stock at best. The traders who let AAPL drop a few percent after this announcement are the same traders that increased Apple's shares by almost 20% after the iPhone announcement. A device they had never seen or touched, with a spec sheet that hadn't even been published yet. If you're worried about this 2% decline now, you better take some vacation.

[Big Mac]

I believe the company when it says this is a slip due to the iPhone. And the big problem is that it just reinforces the perception among some of the user base that Apple truly is shifting away from computers, as its official name change implies. They're spending all kinds of money on Mac ads - shouldn't they be able to walk and chew gum in terms of dual development as well? If there's an insufficient number of engineers to work on both teams, then hire more engineers. Ah well. . . I know I'll get flamed for saying this, but perhaps we need to start thinking about life after the Mac. Apple has us half way there with Boot Camp.

[blackslayer]

seriously i plan to buy a new mb or mbp in june together with leopard...now it has disrupted my plan...shucks,,,

[rubaiyat]

Spring was written in granite, so who believes October?

...and the other shoe is finally dropping as Big Mac points out.

Mac users have been dragged through one "transition" to another. Some kicking and screaming, most like that hen in Chicken Run who always believes the farmer has taken the other chickens away "for a nice holiday" in the Pie Factory.

Don't forget Steve diddled Woz for most of the money they made out of their Atari Brickles game.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

I believe the company when it says this is a slip due to the iPhone. And the big problem is that it just reinforces the perception among some of the user base that Apple truly is shifting away from computers, as its official name change implies. They're spending all kinds of money on Mac ads - shouldn't they be able to walk and chew gum in terms of dual development as well? If there's an insufficient number of engineers to work on both teams, then hire more engineers.

You make the mistake that many managers make: assuming that "engineers" is some kind of inexhaustible, homogeneous resource. Apple really only gets one shot at the iPhone, and it makes sense that they want to put their very best on it. However, their best were leading up development on Leopard. You can't just go to the genius store and get more, you know.

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Ah well. . . I know I'll get flamed for saying this, but perhaps we need to start thinking about life after the Mac. Apple has us half way there with Boot Camp.

[rubaiyat]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

You make the mistake that many managers make: assuming that "engineers" is some kind of inexhaustible, homogeneous resource. Apple really only gets one shot at the iPhone, and it makes sense that they want to put their very best on it. However, their best were leading up development on Leopard. You can't just go to the genius store and get more, you know.

And you make the other mistake that many managers make: taking people off one incomplete project to start them on another incomplete project.

None of which get delivered.

[brokenjago]

Originally Posted by Simon

All this whiny blathering about how the Mac isn't Apple's focus anymore is outright hysterical. The iPhone has been hyped to insane levels and obviously it needs to be near perfect when it's released. The iPhone relies on OS X know-how; if anything Macs and Mac OS X will benefit from iPhone development. With so much money in the bank, Apple would be stupid not to invest into new market segments. Apple can afford to take risks now.

Very well said. +1

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by rubaiyat 

And you make the other mistake that many managers make: taking people off one incomplete project to start them on another incomplete project.

None of which get delivered.

Your posts are all extremely whiny. You might enjoy life a little better if you stopped being unreasonably negative. Both the iPhone and 10.5 will be delivered — I bet you $5,000.

Anyway, to paraphrase a comment I read somewhere else, "A late product will eventually be good. A bad product will just be bad."

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Switchers won't care unless some fanatic says "wait!".

Indeed. Unfortunately there are a lot of such fanatics out there. I know one person who wants to switch, but she's been holding off because some guy who worked at a store told her that Leopard would probably be released in January. Against all common sense.

She'll probably be upset when I tell her of this delay, even though she'd be perfectly happy with Tiger (it is still, after all, a great OS!).

Oh, and yeah, it's better for Leopard to get released in October and work than for it to be released in June and be the buggiest thing since WIndows ME. Besides, this guarantees that I'll have the Leopard-capable version of Pacifist ready in time.

Look at it this way - this means the secret features could be real. If they hadn't delayed it, well, even if they immediately announced all the secret features and sent them to the beta testers tomorrow, to give basically one month's beta testing time for major new OS features? The release would be a disaster. This delay makes it possible that we could see stuff that's more exciting than what's shown up at Apple - Apple - Mac OS X - Leopard Sneak Peek so far.

[rubaiyat]

Not whiny. More like extremely pissed off.

I am a very long time Mac user, I've seen all this before.

Which is why when I didn't believe the Spring shipping date, those wiser than myself corrected me.

Which is also why Mac users should understand that when Apple makes plans it may not include them.

___________________

I'm curious what does go through your head when an entire MacWorld passes with no Mac announcements?

[brokenjago]

Originally Posted by ChuckIt

"A late product will eventually be good. A bad product will just be bad."

Shigeru Miyamoto

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by rubaiyat 

I'm curious what does go through your head when an entire MacWorld passes with no Mac announcements?

Trouble. But then again, it really should be called Apple Expo. Macworld's just a magazine name.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by rubaiyat 

Not whiny. More like extremely pissed off.

Why are you extremely pissed off? I have yet to hear a good reason. All I see is excessive negativity and harping on minor issues.

Originally Posted by rubaiyat 

I am a very long time Mac user, I've seen all this before.

Really? You remember the last time Apple held a majority share of the digital music market, had a solid Unix-based OS with a great GUI that was gaining popularity rapidly and the company was poised to take another market by storm? Must have been before my time.

Originally Posted by rubaiyat 

Which is why when I didn't believe the Spring shipping date, those wiser than myself corrected me.

Wow, you were right once. That must make you an expert or something.

Originally Posted by rubaiyat 

Which is also why Mac users should understand that when Apple makes plans it may not include them.

So your great revelation is the fact that Apple doesn't tailor every little thing to my personal needs? No wonder you seem so upset all the time.

Originally Posted by rubaiyat 

I'm curious what does go through your head when an entire MacWorld passes with no Mac announcements?

Frankly, curiosity as to what the next Mac announcements will be.

[rubaiyat]

So your great revelation is the fact that Apple doesn't tailor every little thing to my personal needs?

No just that Apple is not your friend and in the Steve's scheme of things you are irrelevant.

btw It would be too immodest to list all the occassions where I "accidentally" got it right. To cut off the usual leaps of false logic, that does not claim that I am always right, just that a heaping spoonful of scepticism is usually well applied to all statements from Apple. Microsoft as well, but that goes unchallenged here.

Comes October we'll see. None of this helps Apple's credibility vis a vis Vista, which is why I can't help noticing the Emperor is, yet again, butt naked.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by rubaiyat 

No just that Apple is not your friend and in the Steve's scheme of things you are irrelevant.

OK. Duly noted. Also, people tend not to just give you a million dollars for no reason. As long as we're stating the obvious.

Originally Posted by rubaiyat 

btw It would be too immodest to list all the occassions where I "accidentally" got it right. To cut off the usual leaps of false logic, that does not claim that I am always right, just that a heaping spoonful of scepticism is usually well applied to all statements from Apple. Microsoft as well, but that goes unchallenged here.

Like the time you claimed Finder's shortcut for opening a new browser window was nonstandard, despite being explicitly listed in the HIG? Or just a couple of posts ago when you predicted neither the iPhone nor Leopard would ever come out (which, seriously, )?

The fact is, Apple does really cool stuff. I see no reason to doubt they will do cool stuff again.

[rubaiyat]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Like the time you claimed Finder's shortcut for opening a new browser window was nonstandard, despite being explicitly listed in the HIG?

You entirely missed the point and the extremely long detailed list where Apple does not follow the supposed "standard" itself (a change of mind really), which I pointed out turned 15 years of practice on its head.

Would you care to point the posters here to my "mistake" and let them judge for themselves?

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Or just a couple of posts ago when you predicted neither the iPhone nor Leopard would ever come out (which, seriously, )?

I did? Seriously? I mentioned managers who shift teams around to whatever grabs their attention at the moment. If Apple wants to build iPhones, build an iPhone team, don't take the OSX guys off their job.

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

The fact is, Apple does really cool stuff. I see no reason to doubt they will do cool stuff again.

Apple misses the boat. I see no reason to doubt they will do it again.

I am a Mac user, my interest with Apple extends to them delivering Mac products. They don't deliver, I don't buy. Sometimes I am stuck with their products and am understandably anxious they fix what needs fixing.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by rubaiyat 

You entirely missed the point and the extremely long detailed list where Apple does not follow the supposed "standard" itself, which I pointed out turned 15 years of practice on its head.

A lot of your claims were ridiculous. You tried to argue that Safari should have Command-N as the shortcut for New Bookmark, for crying out loud. Unless Safari's primary purpose is a bookmark maker, and unless the Finder's main purpose is a folder maker, Command-N to make a new bookmark or a new folder do not make sense. What Command-N makes more sense for is to open a new instance of whatever it is that the app does, and both Safari and Finder are browser-type apps. Thus, it is far more logical for Command-N to open a new browser window in both apps.

I dare you to find one newbie user who would expect Command-N to make a new bookmark in a web browser rather than spawning a new window. Plus, I seem to recall even Netscape 2.0 having the shortcut work that way, so there's your "X years of practice" argument. For many, many years of practice, Command-N in browser-type applications has opened a new browser window. For however many years there have been list views, applications with list views (as well as most other types of views, like text views - heck, basically anything with any type of view other than an icon view à la the Finder) have always had the Shift key do contiguous selection and Command non-contiguous selection. Apple Fixed TFF™ in OS X to make the interface consistent. If some other application like iTunes deviates from the standard behavior - and I do wish that there were an easy way to open a new window in that app other than double-clicking a playlist - then fix iTunes! Let the Finder remain organized in a rational manner.

[rubaiyat]

Your response is monotonously based on browsers. Is that all you do?

I have no argument with the cmd N actually opening a new html document, because that is the file format for browsers.

It is ludicrious though to suggest that the user sees this as merely a new Window when the command is under the File menu and not the Window menu, which was your "explanation" of the process.

I didn't argue cmd N should create a new Bookmark. I questioned why cmd shift N creates a New Bookmarks Folder. I could also have questioned why creating of this Bookmarks folder does not follow standard GUI either, by letting you create the folder to save the bookmark into it, as you save.

Just how many examples did I give you spanning how many apps, all showing the only consistency in OSX is inconsistency? Consistency which I would like reinstated, for sake of efficiency and productivity.

The logic behind this, that anything Apple says or does must be right, is the same logic behind your other postings.

Start thinking for yourself, it can be quite liberating.

[JKT]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Switchers won't care unless some fanatic says "wait!". Truly dedicated Mac-heads will understand and waiting for the new OS to "just work" instead of "almost work" won't bother them.

First off, I would much rather the wait for a finished Leopard than them shipping a buggy POS, that is definite. However, that still doesn't mean that I am going to go and buy a new Mac (if and when they are revised before October) if it doesn't have Leopard on it. Why? The issue here isn't just that Leopard is delayed, it is that all the software associated with it is also delayed. I'm holding off on buying a new Mac not just for Leopard, but for the next release of iLife that compliments the new features in the OS, the next release of iWork that does the same, a decent update to .Mac to make use of new Leopard features*, new versions of my third party apps that make good use of the new OS, etc.

It isn't just $129 for OS X (actually, it is nearer $200 for us Brits), it is all the extras on top as well that mean a new machine purchase will save me around $400 to $500 in extra software costs because of the bundled software and new features. If I got a Mac now, that would be most of the difference between a 20" iMac and a 24" iMac, and I would much rather have that 24" thank you. Without Leopard I am just not prepared to get a 20" at the next revision in order to be able to afford Leopard etc when they are finally released in October.

Am I the only Mac-head thinking this way? I doubt it. Which is why I think this will have a negative impact on purchases over the next six months. Wrt to switchers, the main stream press has been (effectively) telling them to wait for Leopard, not Mac fanatics - almost all the press around Vista's release was that it was at best an almost successful copy of OS X Tiger... and when Leopard is released (inference being that this would be soon™) OS X would be leagues ahead of Vista again.

* Though this is probably wishful thinking on my part anyway... now, it is far more likely that I will have cancelled it by then as the cost for this years pathetic offering is far, far too high - any hope that Apple was going to offer us something juicy with Leopard for this years sub has just disappeared out of the window.

[JonoMarshall]

I'm dissapointed, surely now is the time to offer the 'amazing' alternative to Vista?

But as others have said, it would be better to have a stable release than to rush things and it makes me feel a whole lot better about my recent/impatient MacBook purchase.

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by rubaiyat 

Your response is monotonously based on browsers. Is that all you do?

Uhm, we're talking about the Finder, which is a file browser.

I have no argument with the cmd N actually opening a new html document, because that is the file format for browsers.

And if we were talking about an HTML editor, that would make sense. It is not, however. It is a browser. Its purpose is not to create new HTML documents, it is to browse and access resources on the Web. Therefore, the "file" for a web browser, or the closest analogue there is to one, is a new browser, which, like most all other types of documents, is represented by a window.

I didn't argue cmd N should create a new Bookmark. I questioned why cmd shift N creates a New Bookmarks Folder.

Originally Posted by rubaiyat 

Safari shift cmd N is Add Bookmark Folder, so why isnt cmd N a new bookmark?

I could also have questioned why creating of this Bookmarks folder does not follow standard GUI either, by letting you create the folder to save the bookmark into it, as you save.

You're right, it should have that option.

Just how many examples did I give you spanning how many apps, all showing the only consistency in OSX is inconsistency? Consistency which I would like reinstated, for sake of efficiency and productivity.

The main reason I didn't reply to that was that it was really long, and would take me a lot of time to reply to point for point. I could maybe do it over this weekend, but probably in the other thread rather than here, as it would be more relevant there.

The logic behind this, that anything Apple says or does must be right, is the same logic behind your other postings.

Um, if you actually read the things I've written here, you'll very quickly find out that that is not the case. Particularly, look up the iPhone or the "why isn't there an Apple mini-tower" threads. I think SWG actually added me to his ignore list for the former.

Apple does a lot of things that piss me off, but they also do make a bunch of stuff that I like quite a lot. Otherwise, I wouldn't use it.

Start thinking for yourself, it can be quite liberating.

Somewhat ironic when "Start thinking for yourself" means "Start agreeing with ME!", don't you think?

[rubaiyat]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Therefore, the "file" for a web browser, or the closest analogue there is to one, is a new browser, which, like most all other types of documents, is represented by a window.

Call it a "Browser" then, it is still the native file under the File menu not a "window". They do not use the Windows menu which is the 7th menu from the left. Putting "New Window" under File menu and then having a Window menu is in itself illogical.

You're right, it should have that option.

See we're not that far apart It is just an instance of the awkward and backwards approach that I find unfortunately common in OSX.

Not to say there aren't good ideas in the iLife approach. I am just pointing out the unnecessary inconsistencies and clumsiness which if corrected would vastly improve what I consider to still be an immature Operating System.

The main reason I didn't reply to that was that it was really long, and would take me a lot of time to reply to point for point. I could maybe do it over this weekend, but probably in the other thread rather than here, as it would be more relevant there.

And I have not responded yet to your other posting on selections because it is time consuming, even though I have gathered extensive details for that as well.

By the way you misunderstand my rhetorical questioning of the way they choose the related shortcuts. "If this, why not that...?"

Um, if you actually read the things I've written here, you'll very quickly find out that that is not the case. Particularly, look up the iPhone or the "why isn't there an Apple mini-tower" threads. I think SWG actually added me to his ignore list for the former.

Apple does a lot of things that piss me off, but they also do make a bunch of stuff that I like quite a lot. Otherwise, I wouldn't use it.

Then we agree, just not in the detail.

Certainly, as events frequently reveal, Apple's statements and what happens are 2 different things.

Somewhat ironic when "Start thinking for yourself" means "Start agreeing with ME!", don't you think?

I would hate to have everyone agree with me. Many seek out only like minded individuals, I don't. I already know what I think and am curious to see what others might think if they accept less and question more.

Socrates got hemlocked off his Athenian website for trying the same thing.

[Madrag]

I was waiting for 10.5 to buy a newer mac and also because 10,5 should be excelent and I'm anxious to use it
I don't believe the iPhone excuse.
If it's true, then we might as well start looking for other OS/HW because who knows if the iPhone becomes the main *thing* and apple just dumps the HW and OS? Seriously, now they've dropped the "computer", what's the excuse to "forget" about computers if the gadgets sell more?

[rubaiyat]

That was the predictable consequence of the shift to the iPod and the chain of concessions to PCs.

Many back then and, some still now, argue that Steve Jobs has too great an emotional attachment to the Mac to abandon it.

Sentiment is not something I have observed as part of his character. He is certainly capable of cutting loose anything he considers deadwood. His obsessions shift, we don't shift fast enough with them.

You have and can use your Mac, until the next earth shattering announcement.

The citizens of "1984" were regularly told to forget everything they were taught and swing their allegiances 180 degrees on command.

Remember the first Mac ad? How ironic!

[Mr Heliums]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Lame excuse and first missed shipping date in this history of OS X.

No it isn't. The initial release was scheduled for summer 2000, but the beta didn't even arrive until September.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by Mr Heliums 

No it isn't. The initial release was scheduled for summer 2000, but the beta didn't even arrive until September.

Of course the original release was delayed many times. I count from 10.0 on.

[fisherKing]

i too was hoping for a new mbp this summer, with 10.5. oh well.
still, 10.5 is delayed, not cancelled.
so i'll continue to use the imperfect-but-still-excellent 10.4.9.
i can do my work. i can play.
and i can still get a new mac this summer (if there are new ones, and i want one).
then, when 10.5 comes out, i can buy it.

meanwhile...life goes on. if apple delays this release, for whatever reason, so it goes.
am not gonna stop enjoying my mac as is...

[rubaiyat]

IMHO 10.0 to 10.2 were still beta.

OSX shipped with 10.2.3

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Simon

The iPhone has been hyped to insane levels and obviously it needs to be near perfect when it's released.

Indeed. Apple's overhyping caught up with them this time.

Originally Posted by JKT 

First off, I would much rather the wait for a finished Leopard than them shipping a buggy POS, that is definite.

I agree, but then again 10.x.0 is always a buggy POS. Well, not POS, but you know what I mean.

Originally Posted by JKT

However, that still doesn't mean that I am going to go and buy a new Mac (if and when they are revised before October) if it doesn't have Leopard on it. Why? The issue here isn't just that Leopard is delayed, it is that all the software associated with it is also delayed. I'm holding off on buying a new Mac not just for Leopard, but for the next release of iLife that compliments the new features in the OS, the next release of iWork that does the same, a decent update to .Mac to make use of new Leopard features*, new versions of my third party apps that make good use of the new OS, etc.

It isn't just $129 for OS X (actually, it is nearer $200 for us Brits), it is all the extras on top as well that mean a new machine purchase will save me around $400 to $500 in extra software costs because of the bundled software and new features. If I got a Mac now, that would be most of the difference between a 20" iMac and a 24" iMac, and I would much rather have that 24" thank you. Without Leopard I am just not prepared to get a 20" at the next revision in order to be able to afford Leopard etc when they are finally released in October.

Am I the only Mac-head thinking this way? I doubt it. Which is why I think this will have a negative impact on purchases over the next six months. Wrt to switchers, the main stream press has been (effectively) telling them to wait for Leopard, not Mac fanatics - almost all the press around Vista's release was that it was at best an almost successful copy of OS X Tiger... and when Leopard is released (inference being that this would be soon™) OS X would be leagues ahead of Vista again.

* Though this is probably wishful thinking on my part anyway... now, it is far more likely that I will have cancelled it by then as the cost for this years pathetic offering is far, far too high - any hope that Apple was going to offer us something juicy with Leopard for this years sub has just disappeared out of the window.

Yeah, I suspect iLife will be delayed as well. The lack of an updated OS and apps will definitely hurt consumer Mac sales. The question is how much it will hurt them. It won't be a huge problem I don't think, but it will show up in the numbers nonetheless. There are quite a few potential customers waiting for Leopard, even if they don't represent the majority.

Originally Posted by rubaiyat 

IMHO 10.0 to 10.2 were still beta.

OSX shipped with 10.2.3

Yeah, I tended to recommend OS X to switchers only after well into 10.2. 10.1 wasn't quite there yet (although for early adopters, it was fine). 10.0 was totally useless to most non-developers.

Mine shipped with 10.1, but it wasn't the default OS. Apple didn't make OS X the default OS until well after the release of 10.1. However, part of the reason wasn't just OS maturity, but also 3rd party driver and software support.

[mdc]

I think Apple did the right thing. I think there is going to be so many people comparing Vista to 10.5 when it comes out and Apple needs to have a solid OS that will make Vista look years behind.

I was initially bummed out because, maybe because I drink too much of the Kool-Aid but, I believe that there are Super Secret features and I just want to know what they are. If something like Time Machine is good enough to show off but other features aren't. I want to know.
According to the article they said a feature-set version will be shown off and given out in June. This makes me happy.

Honestly. I don't care when they release it, I just want to know what these damn Secret Features are as soon as possible

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Yeah, I suspect iLife will be delayed as well. The lack of an updated OS and apps will definitely hurt consumer Mac sales. The question is how much it will hurt them. It won't be a huge problem I don't think, but it will show up in the numbers nonetheless. There are quite a few potential customers waiting for Leopard, even if they don't represent the majority.

I agree it will have an impact, albeit probably not a big one.

You have to consider their alternatives. Apple could have just said nothing at all and let WWDC come and go w/o a Leopard release. Basically they would have had crappy consumer sales all the way until October and to make matters worse a boatload of bad press and suicide threats all over the net.

This way those people who were willing to wait for an early release (April, May) know they can now go ahead and buy. Those few that actually hold off all hardware purchases until 10.5 ships will wait another 4 months. Tough luck. In the end I believe they made the right choice. The irony is that while almost everybody wants Apple to announce products earlier and give roadmaps for future products, in cases like these (iPhone, Leopard) people start to rant about how Apple should deliver earlier, not announce things so far ahead of time, etc.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by pendragon 

Is work is being done on 10.4.10? Are there developer releases?

Is there something wrong with 10.4.9?

[Dakarʒ]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

That is fantastic.

[schalliol]

I'm not sure that it will cause an impact at all, and the equity analysts aren't concerned. This is because there's a large buying cycle in late summer each year in the academic community, home community with children/college students, as well as in the government community. All the hubbub about this new OS might send those folks over the edge when making a decision to buy a Mac.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by papadopolis 

EDIT: at least we dont have to wait as long a people for vista did lol

1. Windows users don't wait around for OS's in the same way Apple users do. You rarely see Windows users scrambling to their computers when an OS update is released.

2. You also don't know that you won't have to wait as long. Vista experienced several delay announcements. Leopard could as well.

Personally, I had to chuckle at this announcement. It must have really choked Steve to say that Leopard would be delayed, after all the Vista mud slinging. I'm in no rush for 10.5; I haven't even upgraded to 10.4.9 yet.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Madrag 

I was waiting for 10.5 to buy a newer mac and also because 10,5 should be excelent and I'm anxious to use it
I don't believe the iPhone excuse.
If it's true, then we might as well start looking for other OS/HW because who knows if the iPhone becomes the main *thing* and apple just dumps the HW and OS? Seriously, now they've dropped the "computer", what's the excuse to "forget" about computers if the gadgets sell more?

Overreaction on an epic scale.

Just to remind everyone: Apple has not canceled Leopard. Apple has not compromised on the quality of Leopard. Apple has not given any indication that they intend to do anything that would hurt their computers in any way. They pushed a release back a little bit — not at all an uncommon event in the software industry. The most damning thing we can say about Apple because of this is that they overestimated themselves a bit.