[Andhee]

Hey macnn'ers!

Reeet... basically my whole family are trying to convince me out of getting a mac in the near future, although I am completely convinced I want to get a mac. I need to fire some crap back at them to basically shut them up, and thats why I need your help... as I dont know what to say. Theyre saying "You dont need a mac, you're perfectly fine with that toshiba which cost £300..." I need some hardcore statements which will prove why the cost is so much higher than the equivelent of a windows laptop of the same spec. What can I do? My dad has basically put a laptop in my room which I use at the moment, but I think he's just trying to make me want to keep it, and realise that I dont NEED a mac.

Please reply!

[Big Mac]

What model Mac do you want? If you get something like a mini or perhaps a MacBook, that could be easier for your family to swallow. You may want to bring up that new Macs can run Windows too.

[sdilley14]

Faster, more reliable, hold resale value MUCH more, no spyware, no adware, no viruses, most applications are free. Those are a few simple, all encompassing arguments. You get what you pay for. If you want to save a few hundred dollars and get a cheap PC you're going to have to continually scan for viruses, spyware, adware, and every other piece of crap problem that comes along with PCs, then by all means, go ahead. I'd recommend paying a little extra (and I do mean little, my black MacBook was only $999) and getting a Mac. It's worth saving yourself the headache of continuous upkeep alone.

[mduell]

If he's comparing a similar laptop at 300 quid, it must be the Macbook he's after.

But what on earth is a "hardcore statement"?

[mfbernstein]

Yeah, I checked Dell's site (Toshiba's is a maze...) and for 330 quid, they've got a notebook. Not a great notebook mind you, and the processor and OS are anemic, but it is a reminder that Apple has completely ceded the low-end market.

As to why the MacBook is likely better, the main argument is longevity. A Mac with decent specs today will most likely still be a useful machine 4 years from now. A PC that's underpowered today has enough trouble with meeting current demands, it sure as heck won't be able to do much 4 years on.

[Andhee]

Hehe, I meant by a "hardcore statement" was to be something that would shut them up, like an amazing fact. Anyway, the toshiba which I use atm is the Satellite Pro A120, it has 512 RAM and dont know about the processor speed. I'm looking to get a macbook, but in august where they possibly might have released an updated version of it, which will most probably be more for your money.

I think this laptop is too slow, but they say "just upgrade the RAM and it'll be fine", but I don't want this laptop - I want a mac! What can I say?!

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Andhee 

I think this laptop is too slow, but they say "just upgrade the RAM and it'll be fine", but I don't want this laptop - I want a mac! What can I say?!

How about, "I want OS X because Windows is a fragile bloated POS and I'm not geek enough to get it all done with Linux. And since this £300 underspec'ed behemoth can't run OS X I need a MacBook."

[besson3c]

What do you do with your laptop? If you just check your email and type up documents and such, your laptop *is* good enough for you.

[seanc]

Well with that statement besson, my parents should still be using pentium 2s.... but they're SLOW. People don't want to wait for things to be done, no matter how simple they are, heck, right clicking on my friends Dell takes about 5 seconds before it actually displays the menu.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by seanc 

Well with that statement besson, my parents should still be using pentium 2s.... but they're SLOW. People don't want to wait for things to be done, no matter how simple they are, heck, right clicking on my friends Dell takes about 5 seconds before it actually displays the menu.

Well, I have no idea how modern his hardware is. I was just saying that if his needs are the absolute basics, he could get by with just about any computer/OS.

[Andhee]

I tend to have lots of windows open at the same time, which on this computer tends to take its time when switching between them. I also used to do webdesign, but I've kinda left that behind because I've got some exams coming up. This computer tends to be painfully slow at the worst possible moments, and I was proposing for £1000 after my exams, I could reward myself (with a bit of help by them ) with a £1000 macbook, with 2gb RAM. Really, I just want to be different and have a mac, as from what I have seen and heard, they can be fantastic to use once you are used to them.

[besson3c]

A computer is just a tool. If you will not be using it to accomplish a particular job/task/goal, realize that your desires are entertainment related.

[shifuimam]

If you've never used a Mac before, then I strongly recommend going to your local Apple store first. Spend awhile - more than just a few minutes - playing with OS X and the included applications.

Once you plunk down the £1000 for that laptop, you can't return it. Apple's return policy is terrible (in fact, I'd recommend buying from anywhere other than the Apple store because of it), and if you realize that you really can't do what you want on a Mac and that you don't have the time or patience to learn a new OS from scratch, you'll be disappointed in how much money you spent.

Also read up online on the physical problems people are having with their MacBooks - cracking and staining plastic, display problems, battery problems, cooling problems...

Don't buy a high-end, overpriced computer simply because you want to look cool and be different. Spend some money on a new pair of jeans or something. A brand-new, high-end, overpriced laptop with the goal of making you look cool really isn't worth it, especially if you really, truly, can't afford to spend that much money.

[vwgtiturbo]

Don't worry about convincing anyone else about the Mac. Spend some time at an Apple store, if possible, and if not, just go out and DO IT. I did, and am really glad I did. Pick up a copy of Parallels, so that you can run Windows (or linux for that matter) for things that just can't be done on the Mac. Now, after you have it, tell the naysayers to sit down and poke your Mac for a bit (create a new user account if you want to keep them from breaking anything). I did this in my workcenter and guess what? Not only did they stop harassing me, but three of the GIs I work with went out and bought a Mac.

In a nutshell, people fear change, People fear the unknown. The only way to enlighten them is to allow them to explore risk free. OS X speaks for itself, especially for those that are fed up with Windows (and to some, ready for a new set of annoyances...)

[The Godfather]

If you wash cars in the street for 10 pounds each, you would need to wash 100 cars and you'd have your Macbook. Parents become irrelevant in your purchase decision.

[peeb]

The heart wants what it wants.

[MrMacbookMan]

I was in a similar situation. When i was going to be a laptop for school, I looked into it, and decided I wanted a mac (nobody in my family has ever had a mac). My parents kept trying to convince me that I wouldn't like it, and all this other crap. Well, I fought long and hard, took my parents to the apple store to show them the computers and how much better they are then windows and now I have my macbook and love it! I will never go back to windows now, it's so worth however much extra it is! Just try to get them to an apple store to show them, good luck!

[vwgtiturbo]

"...so worth however much extra it is!" That is the funny thing... If you compare apples to apples (no pun intended), the Macs are NOT much more expensive than a PC. Once you consider comparably built PCs and all of the software that comes with the Mac (not to mention the Open Source software you can now run for free, of which, some is not available in a Windows port), you will see that the Mac is one helluva deal.

[MrMacbookMan]

Originally Posted by vwgtiturbo 

"...so worth however much extra it is!" That is the funny thing... If you compare apples to apples (no pun intended), the Macs are NOT much more expensive than a PC. Once you consider comparably built PCs and all of the software that comes with the Mac (not to mention the Open Source software you can now run for free, of which, some is not available in a Windows port), you will see that the Mac is one helluva deal.

He's right, my macbook was actually very reasonably priced when compared to similar dell computers, and when you take into consideration everything it come with, it's really worth it.

[mfbernstein]

Of course for many Dell machines, there simply isn't a 'similar Mac'. I like the MacBooks plenty, but for basic users, they've got too much processor, too many fancy doodads, and not enough screen. That simply prices them out of a large chunk of the market.

[real]

besson3c,


That is the biggest anti-Mac statement ever. Any of us could use linux or windows but we choose to use OS X.

I can get to work in Yugo but choose to drive a Tocoma. I can live without power and water but what a drag that would be.

Andhee, wants a Mac for the same reason you do!

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by real 

besson3c,


That is the biggest anti-Mac statement ever. Any of us could use linux or windows but we choose to use OS X.

I can get to work in Yugo but choose to drive a Tocoma. I can live without power and water but what a drag that would be.

Andhee, wants a Mac for the same reason you do!

No, I literally could not use Windows... I've thought many times about switching to Linux, I may some day.

The bottom line is, computer/operating system choices should connect with software choices, goals, research, business, something... If you do not rely on a computer this way, any computer could fit the bill in email, web surfing, and basic computer functionality. If you wish to replace a viable computer for these purposes with another, that's cool, but there isn't much rational means to "convince" other than just that "you want to".

[liquidsilver6840]

Are you in school or college Andhee?

[real]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

No, I literally could not use Windows... I've thought many times about switching to Linux, I may some day.

The bottom line is, computer/operating system choices should connect with software choices, goals, research, business, something... If you do not rely on a computer this way, any computer could fit the bill in email, web surfing, and basic computer functionality. If you wish to replace a viable computer for these purposes with another, that's cool, but there isn't much rational means to "convince" other than just that "you want to".

You are right about that, trying to convince others that you want something is harder than if you need it for a reason. For sure!

I was just thinking us Mac users, use a mac not because it it just gets it done, it gets it done with style and grace, without asking why and can i get in your way somehow.

Have a good one.

real

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by liquidsilver6840 

Are you in school or college Andhee?

Isn't college school?

[peeb]

Not in the UK.

[j03]

Originally Posted by mfbernstein 

Of course for many Dell machines, there simply isn't a 'similar Mac'. I like the MacBooks plenty, but for basic users, they've got too much processor, too many fancy doodads, and not enough screen. That simply prices them out of a large chunk of the market.

To start off with this pathetic statement : Dells BLOW. They offer terrible prices, performance, and overall value.

2ndly, Macbooks ARE for the basic user, they do not have overly-fancy "doodads" and for laptops sake the screens are plenty. Anyway, who in the right mind needs a 17 or 19'' screen. Its a laptop. Laptops are ment for mobility and overall easiness on the road. You do not need a 512 MB PCI-E video card in a laptop unless you are extreme.

My 2 cents.

: Joe

[eyerhyme]

I do consulting work for Macs and also run a high end audio/video studio (www.smalldogstudio.com) I have 4 macs... Power Mac G5, MacBook Pro, iMac Core Duo, MacMini G4. Your family is obviosuly not properly read on the Macs and are believing all the Windows fluff. First off... price... Macs are NOT more expensive than a PC. Did you laptop come with iLife? How about a built in camera? How about a processor that kicks butt!? But most of all... it most definitely did not come with OSX. Now throw this at your parents... what is your time worth? I charge $80/hour for the studio. If my equipment were to go down, I lose $80/hour. Now I have seen Windows in some studios... most work like hell and the ones that are optimized work because they removed 11 pages of CRAP in the machine. Basically down to BARE BONES. I know this because I have a friend who consults on the Windows side but funny enough runs an iMac. So... there's money saved. Now... what about virus protection... $100 for the software, $80/year for updates, NO GURANTEE for every virus. You will be infected one day... oh yes! They are not bullet proof... and besides... would you drive a car knowing the tire will probably blow every 20 miles, that you will need an oil change every 200 miles, and that you probably will have to get a new engine losing the old one every 1000 miles? Get my analogy?
So lets see... your Laptop $399, plus $100 virus software, plus $80/ year for updates, plus comparable iLife suite $150 or MORE!, plus camera $50, plus loss of work, plus loss of security .... I'd say you have a pretty expensive PC ... piece of CRAP!
Also, the guy posting about the Mac Book problems etc. Sure there were some problems... but I know of at least 10+ people with a Macbook and no probs. In other words, I would say 95% are very happy campers.
One last thing... show your parents the way the software intergrates. iLife works beautifully with iWork. Address book works awesome with Mail. iTunes works amazing with iCal, Address Book, etc. using an a synced up iPod...alarms for appointments, phone numbers, etc. It all works together! If you're doing a report or Powerpoint presentation, you can't beat Pages or Keynote. They intergrate so well with iPhoto, iTunes, etc. Need a Movie but don't have a video camera... use the iSight.
Everyone I know who has switched doesn't look back and wishes they had done it sooner. One last quick thing... my Dad has a Powerbook Pismo... at least 8 years old... runs the latest version of OSX Tiger. Does your laptop do Vista? Didn't think so.
Cheers and feel free to contact me through my studio website.
Ian

[besson3c]

The issue is Apple does not really provide cheap Desktop and Laptop options like Dell. Yes, what you are saying about the value of iLife and all is right, but Apple doesn't provide options for people who don't want iLife, who don't care about the camera, etc.

I'm not saying that they should, but this is indeed what it boils down to as far as sticker price goes. Many people are of the mind that hardware price = cost and value of machine, and don't want to figure software and these other variables into the equation.

There are uses for really cheap PCs: dedicated kiosk type machines, basic word pro/internet, MythTV boxes, development/test boxes, etc. There are legitimate uses for cheap PCs, this is just not a market Apple is interested in getting into. Apple's solutions are all intended to be "just add water, you now are in the comfortable Apple bubble".

To me all of these Mac vs. PC price arguments are silly without taking this into account.

[mfbernstein]

Originally Posted by j03 

To start off with this pathetic statement : Dells BLOW. They offer terrible prices, performance, and overall value.

2ndly, Macbooks ARE for the basic user, they do not have overly-fancy "doodads" and for laptops sake the screens are plenty. Anyway, who in the right mind needs a 17 or 19'' screen. Its a laptop. Laptops are ment for mobility and overall easiness on the road. You do not need a 512 MB PCI-E video card in a laptop unless you are extreme.

My 2 cents.

: Joe

Let's consider this for a moment. Clearly, a dual-core processor is an absolute must-have for a basic machine. Ditto bluetooth, IR and remote, and 802.11n.

Look, you can say Dell = cr*p 'til the cows come home, but of the top 4 notebook manufacturers, 3 of them have machines in the sub-$700 range, with 15" screens.

No, they're not as good as Macs, but if the choice is between $800 Dell laptop and no laptop, it is kind of hard to argue. For people who simply use their machine for web/e-mail/word-processing etc as most of the ones I know do, the MacBook is overspecced (save the screen), undersized, and expensive.

[ibugv4]

Don't buy into the "it holds it value" crap, nothing with a power cord holds its value after 24 months. Even then, I'm seeing two to three month old MacBooks on Craigslist for $900 or less (the $1100 model).

Key points:

No Self-replicating malware available on the platform YET.
Reboot or start Windows in a Virtual Machine environment
MS Office & Firefox
Small system (except the towers), nice design, easy to move or carry.
Comes with a decent amount of RAM, wireless connectivity, and in most cases a DVD-RW standard.
You pay for quality hardware, you do not get an Audi for the price of a Ford Focus.

Other than that, whose buying it? If it is your $$ then tell them to bark up another tree.

[eyerhyme]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

The issue is Apple does not really provide cheap Desktop and Laptop options like Dell. Yes, what you are saying about the value of iLife and all is right, but Apple doesn't provide options for people who don't want iLife, who don't care about the camera, etc.

Why should Apple put out crap? I don't expect my studio to put out sub standard work that others will judge me by because someone is being cheap just to make a quick buck... would you?

Originally Posted by mfbernstein 

For people who simply use their machine for web/e-mail/word-processing etc as most of the ones I know do, the MacBook is overspecced (save the screen), undersized, and expensive.

Again... if all you are using it for is web/email... why would you go for a virus magnet? It's gonna bite you in the ass eventually. Plus every person I know who gets into a Mac DOES MORE once they see all the cool software and possibilities. Why get less when you can get more? We're also talking about a younger person who's generation understands tech and the internet more than ever. It's a way of life, communication, personal expression, etc. Plus seriously... $399 for a "good" computer... come on. Yes Dell does laptops with 15" screens, etc for cheap... but again... you're getting what you pay for. USB ports are nothing more than a hub, the screen is cheap, the build is cheap, the processor stinks, etc. etc. and it's running WINDOWS!! Again ...why would you go for a virus magnet?
On top of all of this, here's something to really chew on. Dell is now reversing their decision of not offering Win XP and only allowing Vista. Hmmm... so is M$ a company that is at the forefront of new technology? Or are people realzing that Vista is nothing more than a cheap copy of OSX Tiger trying to tout "new" features that Macs have had for 2 or more years... I'd be putting my money on a company that is an innovator... not a cheap copy. OSX Leopard is gonna ROCK!

[Andhee]

Originally Posted by liquidsilver6840 

Are you in school or college Andhee?

Going to college after summer =] Thought id get some new hardware for a new era lol.

[mfbernstein]

We've kind of abandoned the original question at this point, but oh well. It would be nice, however, if we could keep the jumping to conclusions to a minimum.

I didn't say that a $700 PC laptop is a good machine. I didn't say it's better than a $1100 MacBook. I did say Apple has a hole in its product lineup, a $400 hole. I suspect a lot of people slip through that hole.

Arguing whether Windows Vista blows chunks (it does) or MacOS X Leopard is the second coming of the messiah (hint: no) is a complete waste of time. If you have $700 to spend on a new laptop, you can't get a Mac. Period. You can get a PC.

As to the cheap necessarily equals less reliable claim, let's remember the MacBook vs. MacBook Pro reliability in the first generation. Which machine had the most repairs?

Actually, Apple sort of does have a $800 laptop - the refurbished 12" iBook (not a bad machine, just rather slow). I'm sure that if they wanted, they could use similarly dated materials to make an $800 MacBook. The problem is, they don't.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by eyerhyme 

Why should Apple put out crap? I don't expect my studio to put out sub standard work that others will judge me by because someone is being cheap just to make a quick buck... would you?

What is your point here? That nobody should sell or buy cheap stuff?

I'd be putting my money on a company that is an innovator... not a cheap copy. OSX Leopard is gonna ROCK!

"Innovation" is a term that is flung around pretty haphazard these days... There is technically very little actual innovation in OS X, but merely new and interesting implementations of existing ideas.

[vitalprogeny]

Hey guys, not that I have anything against tech specs or the billion reasons why Macs can be technically superior...

but honestly... it seems the original questions was... i want a mac... what can i say to justify it..

i do it all the time... its kinda like saying... well you can buy a normal tv for like $300 so why buy the 40" HDTV for $ 3,000 and guys please dont go and start giving me quotes from websites for actual 40" prices lol!

but point being... I switched recently... it was either... wait for vista... buy a 500 - 700 comp... or get a mac....

most ppl... when buying a windows pc go for the cheap pc's... under a 1000.... they think that because macs start at 999 (the all in one's not the mini's because most ppl aren't exposed to the mini or know about it) that macs CANT be made cheaper... but they can... but... they ARENT... and on PURPOSE... why? because for the reliability... performance.. and just stature which is the mac.. u cant sell it for $300.... and therefore you shouldnt compare a cheap pc to a mac... that costs nearly 4 times as much... and if you do... how is the pc better? your getting 4 times the goodness!!!!

I use my mac for email, internet, casual games, and primarily video and stuff... nothing a pc cant do... and vista does look pretty and it has some of the features OS X does... so why mac? well... first off... nothing impresses you like walking into the room and seeing the imac... its just elegant... all my friends (even vista users) are amazed by it... the display's technology is amazing and well... mac just doesnt falter... I hear about ppl complain all the time... macs break... screens... plastic... battery... but common... you think pc's dont have that? they have it and MORE!!!! ESPECIALLY THE CHEAPER THEY GET!!! just because your getting a mac doesnt mean its undestructable....

But I do tell you that when I sit down on my mac... I enjoy computing... I actually enjoy using my computer... because I dont even notice the computer... I can focus on the content im working on or whatever... not once have i had to restart or had it freeze or ... actually... I havent had a single problem that wasnt caused by me (modifying the system skins and stuff)


I dont HAVE to have virus protection... or adware protection... or worry about the system slowing down.. or outdating... or if a driver works... or restarting... or running multiple users at the same time... or if i open too many windows will my right-click take five minutes to load...

its just seemless... simple... elegant.... fun... to have a mac... is... like the commercial's intend... fun....

I can sit here sometimes... not have anything to do... and just want to find something to do on the mac... I just want to keep computing... because once I think of something I want to do... the OS doesnt become a barrier in between me and that objective... but it actually helps me get there more efficiently... wow... I thought thats the point of an OS... if not we'd still be using plain code right?

[shinji]

Get a used one on ebay or a refurb if the cost is the big issue? Or offer to pay them back the price difference later on...

If you really can't convince them and you badly want a new one, I would just make something up like you're gonna be studying video editing in school next year and you need final cut, or photography and you need aperture, etc.

[msuper69]

I say f**k'em all. Get what you want. Of course you'll have to get some cahonies first.
Good God man it's your life. Go for the gusto.

[eyerhyme]

Hey vitalprogeny!
Thanks for the "other" cool reasons of why a mac... Best point you made is this..."the OS doesnt become a barrier in between me and that objective" I can't tell you enough times I've seen Windows users trying to do something and the "OS" becomes a painful back seat driver... The other great point ...."I enjoy computing... I actually enjoy using my computer..." FUN! Why shouldn't it be?! You only live once... ENJOY YOURSELF AND HAVE FUN!!! You definitely will with a Mac. Also, a refurb is another good suggestion... same warranty, etc. for a cheaper price!

[Big Fat Octopus]

Why not try....."I want to devote more time towards my studies and less time managing Windows Security issues. Oh, did you know Mac's are devoid of viruses and spyware?"

[liquidsilver6840]

Originally Posted by Andhee 

Going to college after summer =] Thought id get some new hardware for a new era lol.

LOL! My friend is in the same position as you are. She is graduating this summer from high school and wants to go high-end and get a MacBook Pro. The thing is that her folks have to get 3 laptops for next year becuase our school is implementing the use of laptops instead of notebooks.. I think that she's going to end up getting a refurbished MacBook Pro.. Maybe you could get a refurbished MacBook instead of a new one..

Also, what are you going to study?

[vitalprogeny]

Originally Posted by eyerhyme 

Hey vitalprogeny!
Thanks for the "other" cool reasons of why a mac... Best point you made is this..."the OS doesnt become a barrier in between me and that objective" I can't tell you enough times I've seen Windows users trying to do something and the "OS" becomes a painful back seat driver... The other great point ...."I enjoy computing... I actually enjoy using my computer..." FUN! Why shouldn't it be?! You only live once... ENJOY YOURSELF AND HAVE FUN!!! You definitely will with a Mac. Also, a refurb is another good suggestion... same warranty, etc. for a cheaper price!

Glad to help!

But its just the way I feel about being on a Mac... It's funny how I almost completely forgot about having to restart your computer after even the most basic and simplest installation... I mean if you actually think about it.. the little things... when so many of them... make a difference, and the fact that there is an overall consensus of mac users being happy... and generally speaking... windows users not being happy... that says it all by itself...

[brettcamp]

Apple - Get a Mac
Macs vs PCs - Education, Business, Anyone

[j03]

Originally Posted by eyerhyme 

Why should Apple put out crap? I don't expect my studio to put out sub standard work that others will judge me by because someone is being cheap just to make a quick buck... would you?



Again... if all you are using it for is web/email... why would you go for a virus magnet? It's gonna bite you in the ass eventually. Plus every person I know who gets into a Mac DOES MORE once they see all the cool software and possibilities. Why get less when you can get more? We're also talking about a younger person who's generation understands tech and the internet more than ever. It's a way of life, communication, personal expression, etc. Plus seriously... $399 for a "good" computer... come on. Yes Dell does laptops with 15" screens, etc for cheap... but again... you're getting what you pay for. USB ports are nothing more than a hub, the screen is cheap, the build is cheap, the processor stinks, etc. etc. and it's running WINDOWS!! Again ...why would you go for a virus magnet?
On top of all of this, here's something to really chew on. Dell is now reversing their decision of not offering Win XP and only allowing Vista. Hmmm... so is M$ a company that is at the forefront of new technology? Or are people realzing that Vista is nothing more than a cheap copy of OSX Tiger trying to tout "new" features that Macs have had for 2 or more years... I'd be putting my money on a company that is an innovator... not a cheap copy. OSX Leopard is gonna ROCK!

You hit the nail ON THE HEAD @@@!!!! Dell is a piece of garbage company. They offer laptops for only $600? OMG and guess what in the next 3 months its going to be an outdated piece of garbage filled with tons of adware from the second you take it out of the box. Conclusion: Mac > PC.