[Kevin]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

I would hope that people don't care THAT much. That would just be sad.

I think you'd be shocked at the great lengths fanboys go when they get an emotional attachment to software/hardware. I've seen it get downright scary. Anyhow, back on topic.

I am planning on buying a new disc player in the next month. And I couldn't really care less about HD or blueray. I just want it to play DVDs. I think that's what most consumers care about.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by icruise 

Of course it's PS3-specific, but the point is that other manufacturers are free to make remotes if they want to. In fact, it should be perfectly possible to make a comination IR/Bluetooth remote that would solve all of these problems. Maybe the demand just isn't there.

It seems to me that maybe Sony just assumed the PS3 would sell craploads, and then 3rd parties would be falling all over themselves trying to get a Bluetooth remote out. However, that doesn't seem to be the case.

There are two main types of remotes out there:

1) IR
2) IR + RF

This covers a bazillion types of remotes out there. The Bluetooth remote would just be the PS3, so I guess those companies just figured it wasn't worth it, especially considering the PS3 is selling way less than expected, and most people buy it for gaming purposes anyway.

Originally Posted by jokell82 

My bet is that they just wanted to sell more Playstation Remotes. There really is no other explanation that makes sense.

Could be. It's curious that PS3 bundles with free movies still don't come with a remote.

[icruise]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

My bet is that they just wanted to sell more Playstation Remotes. There really is no other explanation that makes sense.

I think it's far more likely that they wanted to consolidate all of the remotes/controllers with a single interface and didn't see the point in putting IR hardware on every single PS3 when it wasn't necessary for most people. I'm not necessarily saying that it was the right decision. At the very least, they should have an official IR adapter for people who want to use IR universal remotes.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by icruise 

I think it's far more likely that they wanted to consolidate all of the remotes/controllers with a single interface and didn't see the point in putting IR hardware on every single PS3 when it wasn't necessary for most people.

Yeah, and IR ports aren't free either. They're cheap, but they needed to cut costs on the PS3, and it already had Bluetooth.

I'm not necessarily saying that it was the right decision. At the very least, they should have an official IR adapter for people who want to use IR universal remotes.

Yup.

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by icruise 

I think it's far more likely that they wanted to consolidate all of the remotes/controllers with a single interface and didn't see the point in putting IR hardware on every single PS3 when it wasn't necessary for most people. I'm not necessarily saying that it was the right decision. At the very least, they should have an official IR adapter for people who want to use IR universal remotes.

I guess, but if they were going to get rid of stuff that wasn't necessary why would they have the card readers?

[jokell82]

Looks like AVS has shut down all Blu-Ray/HD DVD discussions due to all the crap that both sides fling. Sheesh.

[Eug]

Nah... Price doesn't matter...

Video Business: Toshiba HD-A2 model sells 90,000 over weekend

The HD DVD format significantly pumped its installed base over the weekend, as dueling store clearances sold an estimated 90,000 Toshiba players, according to sources close to retailers.

Within three days, Toshiba corralled nearly as many sales as the best-selling stand-alone Blu-ray Disc player has sold since its launch. Sony’s dominant Blu-ray set-top, the $499 BDP-S300, has shipped about 100,000 since it bowed this summer.

In fact, the 90,000 figure for HD-A2 sales could be even higher, as it doesn’t appear to include all retailer information. The figure does span consumer activity on HD-A2s at Wal-Mart, Best Buy and Circuit City, among others.

Best Buy also shaved $100 off Toshiba’s $299 third-generation player, the HD-A3, Friday through Sunday. At deadline, a Best Buy spokesman did not provide updated sales on the HD-A3.

Originally Posted by jokell82 

I guess, but if they were going to get rid of stuff that wasn't necessary why would they have the card readers?

Yeah, that never made sense to me, especially since you can just plug in a 3rd party USB flash card reader.

Originally Posted by jokell82 

Looks like AVS has shut down all Blu-Ray/HD DVD discussions due to all the crap that both sides fling. Sheesh.

Holy crap!

Originally Posted by AVS Forum

Third, while AVS Forum seems to be the top place this war is being fought, we really do not like how the members are acting as of late. We have until now tried to deal with it as we can, but now it has come to this. We have seen members attacking other members not only in debate, which is the right way, but with physical threats that have involved police and possible legal action.

[icruise]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Nah... Price doesn't matter...

Nobody has said that price doesn't matter. We have said that it's not the most important factor. HD-DVD would be in serious trouble if they didn't sell out of the limited stock they had at these prices. I don't think you can assume that this equals a similar increase in the HD-DVD user base, though. I'm sure many of the people buying the $99 players already owned HD-DVD players, and were getting them as second or third players, and no doubt some of them bought them to use primarily as normal upscaling DVD players. That's not to totally downplay what has been a very successful week. If the $99 price was the actual, normal retail price then I could see it affecting things.

[voodoo]

Is Toshiba the only significant maker of HD-DVD players? Onkyo and RCA certainly aren't. So.

It's Toshiba with support from Microsoft against the world?

Toshiba?

V

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Holy crap!

Do you have a link to one of those threads?

V

[Eug]

Originally Posted by icruise 

Nobody has said that price doesn't matter. We have said that it's not the most important factor.

Price is the most important factor... IMO, and as I've previously said. No, it's not the only factor, but at this stage of the war it's crucial.

Despite all the studio support, it basically took Sony many, many moons to accomplish what Toshiba did in 3 days... because of price.

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Is Toshiba the only significant maker of HD-DVD players? Onkyo and RCA certainly aren't. So.

It's Toshiba with support from Microsoft against the world?

Toshiba?

Yes... With a little help from Venturer this quarter at the low end.

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Do you have a link to one of those threads?

No, I don't know the specific threads they're talking about that lead to the police involvement. All I know is that there are a lot of nasty threads there. There are quite a few HD DVD p!ssheads of course, but it seems the latest events in the war (see above) have really brought out the Blu-ray uber-trolls. It's as if some Blu-rayers are in panic mode now or something, while the HD DVDers egg them on.

I do know there were some really nasty PMs going around though, cuz a few members chose to publish them.

Like really... WTF? We here get pretty animated in our discussions in this humungous thread, but I can't imagine someone threatening another member with physical bodily harm over this. That's just so odd.

[icruise]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if price was the most important factor, HD-DVD would have already won, instead of struggling to catch up with BR. (That said, if the price difference is a huge one and one that is sustainable rather than a limited time promotion, its effects will be much greater. In other words, if HD-DVD players are regularly priced at $99 and BR players are $399, HD-DVD will kick BR's ass.)

[goMac]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Is Toshiba the only significant maker of HD-DVD players? Onkyo and RCA certainly aren't. So.

On the other hand, no one in the Bluray camp is really making significant sales of Bluray standalones.

One could argue that Sony is the only significant maker of Bluray players (PS3).

[voodoo]

The way I see it, this 'format war' hasn't even started yet. There are far too few adopters of either technology.

Apple will choose either format when the time comes and that will be the format of choice. This 'war' will be fought and won on computers. Not consoles and not dedicated players.

Mark my words. Apple is selling more than a million HD capable machines every year. Add the drive and *boom* (/steve) a huuuge installed userbase ready to actually use the drive to watch movies.

On their fancy HD iMacs or MacBooks. The 'war' will last about a year when it starts. Until then, it's just going to be like this. Discussions by overly interested early adopters, hi-fi geeks and console players(!)

The 'war' will begin when *normal* people enter into it.

V

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by goMac 

On the other hand, no one in the Bluray camp is really making significant sales of Bluray standalones.

One could argue that Sony is the only significant maker of Bluray players (PS3).

Perhaps, but I maintain that the 'war' hasn't started yet. Except on nerdyforums. That the evil big faceless corporations are having people fight (voluntarily) on their behalf must surely bring a smile upon their otherwise perpetually frowning faces.

Insane, that's what it is

V

[icruise]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Perhaps, but I maintain that the 'war' hasn't started yet. Except on nerdyforums.

You're probably right, and even places like MacNN (which have higher than average nerdiness quotients) don't seem to be attracting a lot of people who are interested in this conflict. Admittedly, I just added the poll yesterday, but only 33 people so far have voted for all of the options combined.

Insane, that's what it is

It really is. I can't understand how someone can get so personally invested in this.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Apple will choose either format when the time comes and that will be the format of choice. This 'war' will be fought and won on computers. Not consoles and not dedicated players.

Mark my words. Apple is selling more than a million HD capable machines every year. Add the drive and *boom* (/steve) a huuuge installed userbase ready to actually use the drive to watch movies.

Honestly, I think Apple will choose neither. They have a storefront, and they have a distribution system. They could begin distributing HD content to millions of users without even requiring them to spend money on hardware upgrades.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Honestly, I think Apple will choose neither. They have a storefront, and they have a distribution system. They could begin distributing HD content to millions of users without even requiring them to spend money on hardware upgrades.

Oh I'm sure they'll move to on-line HD content as soon as they possibly can. However, the future there isn't as bright as in hard-media HD content. Universal has jumped ship and other content providers are not overly happy with Apple.

It doesn't make sense that Apple will sit on the fence much longer. After all, they are a hardware company and new tech moves units.

The iTS exists to support iPods and the movies sold there are to support AppleTV sales along with iPods. To sell computers Apple will need to choose either of the HD formats.

Apple managed to make a market out of home movie editing and pushed USB way before the market while dumping the floppy-drive.

Point being, HD is the future. Perhaps Apple can support both formats. I guess Apple will choose one and end the war thusly.

V

[icruise]

I don't think Apple can choose neither in the long term, since one format or the other is going to eventually replace DVD-R as a computer-based backup medium. It's possible, maybe even likely, that they will wait until a clear winner has emerged before including it with their computers, though.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by icruise 

I don't think Apple can choose neither in the long term, since one format or the other is going to eventually replace DVD-R as a computer-based backup medium. It's possible, maybe even likely, that they will wait until a clear winner has emerged before including it with their computers, though.

This is true, either format will replace DVD-R. I'm saying Apple has the influence to make it so that the format Apple arbitrarily chooses *will* be the successor.

I can understand that not everyone has the same faith in Apple on this matter as I, but knowing how determined they can be and how powerful Apple's marketing machine is and their respect in digital media is, I have great faith in them.

See how impotent the respective clusters are at marketing their own technology?!

See how sucky all Samsung MP3 players were before the iPod? (They still aren't that hot) Windows Media Audio was actually a major player before Apple decided it should be MP4 and that WMA should die with a whimper.

Apple made that, because they made an MP3 player that 'got it' in a way the impotent Samsung, Microsoft, Sony, Toshiba et al just *didn't* get.

So when Apple moves, the market will listen. It's not just that Apple tends to make lemonade out of lemons, it's that they've made it so many times that their decisions on multimedia tech is in higher regard than Redmond. Not bad for a beleagured company.

V

[Eug]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Mark my words. Apple is selling more than a million HD capable machines every year. Add the drive and *boom* (/steve) a huuuge installed userbase ready to actually use the drive to watch movies.

HDCP

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Perhaps, but I maintain that the 'war' hasn't started yet. Except on nerdyforums.

By all accounts, a LOT of those 90000 HD-A2s went to non-nerdyforum types.

Originally Posted by voodoo 

This is true, either format will replace DVD-R. I'm saying Apple has the influence to make it so that the format Apple arbitrarily chooses *will* be the successor.

I can understand that not everyone has the same faith in Apple on this matter as I, but knowing how determined they can be and how powerful Apple's marketing machine is and their respect in digital media is, I have great faith in them.

I guess HD DVD has already won then, considering that DVD Studio Pro makes spec-compatible HD DVDs.

And like I said before... DVD-RAM, FTW!!!

[goMac]

Originally Posted by icruise 

I don't think Apple can choose neither in the long term, since one format or the other is going to eventually replace DVD-R as a computer-based backup medium. It's possible, maybe even likely, that they will wait until a clear winner has emerged before including it with their computers, though.

If you haven't noticed, Apple already has a backup solution. It's called Time Machine, and it doesn't work with Bluray or HD-DVD, much less DVD-R.

Apple wants people to buy hard drives for backup purposes, not optical media.

Edit: Oh, but it does let you backup your iTunes Store content.

[icruise]

Do you really think that Apple would for people to use hard disks for every backup need, just to subsidize their (as yet non-existent) sale of HD movies via the iTunes store? Hard disks are not suitable for every type of backup, and neither are they suitable for passing information from one person to another.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by icruise 

Do you really think that Apple would for people to use hard disks for every backup need, just to subsidize their (as yet non-existent) sale of HD movies via the iTunes store?

No, I think that Apple believes that hard drives are the best consumer technology for backing up, and therefore they have no need of Bluray or HD-DVD for backing up. It's coincidental with the existence of the iTunes Music Store, but not necessarily justified by it.

Originally Posted by icruise 

Hard disks are not suitable for every type of backup, and neither are they suitable for passing information from one person to another.

Hard drives are very suitable for consumer backups. They support deltas, they are automatic, and they are far higher capacity than Bluray or HD-DVD, and they don't make the user pay per backup.

If you're dealing with something like a server farm where you are dealing with capacities in the terabytes, the only reasonable option is tape backups. Bluray and HD-DVD is even less useful in those settings.

[exca1ibur]

Apple will wait it out as long as possible and just rape the market like the studios will do, by not making a decision one way or another. The longer the war, the better for them. When there is a winner, IF there is a winner, they can resell the same content from one format to the other camp. Hence, Lord of the Rings, version 60.5, Extra edition, The Directors Edition, Part 6. If they wanted to really end this all the studios would pick one format and go with it, there would be no riding the line and jumping back and forth and Apple and Microsoft waiting, instead of trying to push for one or the other.

This war is nothing but a big chicken and egg. No one wants to commit till the other one puts forth the effort. Until someone grows a pair the war will stretch out until someone else comes along.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Eug 

HDCP

How nerdy of you. I had to look that up. My point wasn't that there was a lack of DRM'd media in HD. There's plenty. However one of the largest distributers of such media just cancelled it's co-operation with Apple.

Apple is not in the business of distributing media unless for support of hardware. You are aware of this? Grass is also green btw. HD content will sell no iPods, no Macs specifically, maybe some AppleTVs.

Originally Posted by Eug 

By all accounts, a LOT of those 90000 HD-A2s went to non-nerdyforum types.

On what nerdyforum did you read that?

Seriously though.. you wouldn't consider yourself a nerd? Seriously..

Originally Posted by Eug 

I guess HD DVD has already won then, considering that DVD Studio Pro makes spec-compatible HD DVDs.

You're not a very good guesser or willfully obtuse. I suspect the latter, seeing your next comment below. Apple hasn't chosen until they start selling drives with HD-DVD or Bluray.

Originally Posted by Eug 

And like I said before... DVD-RAM, FTW!!!

Yeah, WTF! As in WTF can't you understand about the idiocy of that comparison. DVD-RAM is part of the DVD specification. The HD-DVD specification has HD-DVD RAM. You know that?

You know that until DVD+R then DVD RAM was the most reliable way to back up on DVD? You realize that DVD RAM was only on Macintosh towers, workstations that needed such backups?

Excuse me for being vulgar, but how far up your own ass do you have to be to know all about these "HD" formats and not the basic things about the DVD it is replacing? How pretentious?


V

[goMac]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Apple is not in the business of distributing media unless for support of hardware. You are aware of this? Grass is also green btw. HD content will sell no iPods, no Macs specifically, maybe some AppleTVs.

Apple is interested in becoming a gatekeeper for all media. They want you to be able to take the same content from your TV, to your iPod, and then to your computer. HD will sell more iPods because people will want to take the HD content they watch on their TV with them on the go.

Apple's goal is to replace the cable company and the DVD store. Physical media is about as un-Apple as you can get, and obviously breaks the entire concept of having your media with you whether you are on the go or in the living room. The big advantages of Bluray and HD-DVD, such as lossless audio or 7.1 audio, make little to no sense on a computer anyway.

[voodoo]

I would like to have a 15+ GB DVD to back up to. Plenty of things that I have that don't need to be on a hard-drive and are annoying to back up on DVDs (even dual layer).

Apple is a hardware company because its media services just about break even. That's their only goal and that's why the labels are pissed at Apple.

They've gone on record, displaying their discontent that Apple refuses to make money from media distribution.

Apple has no interest in being a distributor of media unless it sells hardware.

V

[Montezuma58]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

I guess, but if they were going to get rid of stuff that wasn't necessary why would they have the card readers?

Or a a Blu-Ray drive?

[Eug]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

How nerdy of you. I had to look that up.

If you had to look "HDCP" up, then it would suggest to me you don't understand digital media very well. HDCP support is crucial, and a fairly basic piece of info about this stuff.

Yeah, WTF! As in WTF can't you understand about the idiocy of that comparison. DVD-RAM is part of the DVD specification. The HD-DVD specification has HD-DVD RAM. You know that?

Indeed. I own several DVD-RAM drives, and wrote a DVD FAQ for one nerdy forum, including a section on DVD-RAM capabilities in Windows and OS X. However, I don't claim to be an expert... and don't claim to know which way Apple will go either.

However, it was my understanding that the HD DVD spec does NOT include HD DVD-RAM. This is a proposed technology, but AFAIK, it's not officially approved. I could be wrong, though. Feel free to correct me.

You know that until DVD+R then DVD RAM was the most reliable way to back up on DVD? You realize that DVD RAM was only on Macintosh towers, workstations that needed such backups?

Excuse me for being vulgar, but how far up your own ass do you have to be to know all about these "HD" formats and not the basic things about the DVD it is replacing? How pretentious?

??? DVD-R you mean. DVD+R is not even part of the DVD specification.

It would seem you don't understand the issue very well yet you are willing to make broad and baseless statements. I mean seriously. You proclaimed that Apple's installed base meant that they were all set up for HD movies... but hadn't even heard of the basic concept of HDCP. And then you go on to suggest that DVD+R was the successor of DVD-RAM, which of course is wrong. It might also be of interest to you that after Apple's stint with DVD-RAM, Apple "chose" DVD-R, not DVD+R.

If you don't understand even the basics, then it's hard to take your proclamations seriously, especially when they are based on arguments simply (and incorrectly) citing the infallibility of Apple.

[jokell82]

Another thing that negates the "who Apple chooses automatically wins" is the situation we have for home movies now. Back when the DVD-R and DVD+R battle was going on, when Apple chose a side it mattered because people wanted to make movies that played on their new DVD players. Now, though, that need is not there. Higher capacity discs would really be used more for backups and data transfer than for videos. And why is that? Youtube.

The trend has been to lower quality with more accessibility, with less of an emphasis on higher definition.

[icruise]

Amazon is doing a special where you get $10 off if you buy Ratatouille and either Cars or The Pixar Short Films Collection

Combined with the 10% discount on Blu-ray/HD-DVD that they give me, I got Ratatouille and Cars for about $33. Not too bad.

[jokell82]

That's not a bad deal at all!

[Eug]

Originally Posted by icruise 

Amazon is doing a special where you get $10 off if you buy Ratatouille and either Cars or The Pixar Short Films Collection

Combined with the 10% discount on Blu-ray/HD-DVD that they give me, I got Ratatouille and Cars for about $33. Not too bad.

That's a pretty good deal, esp. with our $1.10 Canadian dollar.

My GF wants to buy Ratatouille, but was disappointed to find out it doesn't exist on HD DVD. We'll have to get the DVD. We're not too interested in Cars though. I don't think she'd be interested in the Pixar Short Films Collection either, but I'd consider picking that up if it was part of a nice sale.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

I would like to have a 15+ GB DVD to back up to. Plenty of things that I have that don't need to be on a hard-drive and are annoying to back up on DVDs (even dual layer).

Ok, but this really is not something your average consumer would be interested in.

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Apple is a hardware company because its media services just about break even. That's their only goal and that's why the labels are pissed at Apple.

This isn't true. Apple has been making money off of the iTunes Store, and I'm sure Apple would love to sell more Apple TVs.

Originally Posted by voodoo 

They've gone on record, displaying their discontent that Apple refuses to make money from media distribution.

Huh? No, they've gone on record saying that they don't feel they make enough money, which is quite simply absurd.

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Apple has no interest in being a distributor of media unless it sells hardware.

Of course being a distributor of media sells hardware.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Eug 

If you had to look "HDCP" up, then it would suggest to me you don't understand digital media very well. HDCP support is crucial, and a fairly basic piece of info about this stuff.

Jargon usually hides ignorance and carries little knowledge. Besides, knowing acronyms and initialisms by heart isn't knowledge or understanding. As well you know.

Originally Posted by Eug 

Indeed. I own several DVD-RAM drives, and wrote a DVD FAQ for one nerdy forum, including a section on DVD-RAM capabilities in Windows and OS X. However, I don't claim to be an expert... and don't claim to know which way Apple will go either.

Goody. DVD-RAM discs came in a cartridge and were only used for backup purposes. It was never to be 'the DVD writeable' format. That would come later as DVD-R, again as well you know. DVD-RAM is comparable to Jaz drives if anything. Not actual DVDs.

It's not a very good argument against Apple's media predictions now is it? Of course not.

Originally Posted by Eug 

However, it was my understanding that the HD DVD spec does NOT include HD DVD-RAM. This is a proposed technology, but AFAIK, it's not officially approved. I could be wrong, though. Feel free to correct me.

HD-DVD RAM is a proposed technology, that is correct. Toshiba (the lone ranger of HD-DVD) is making the disc, so one can safely assume that if it is any good it will be approved. It's a formality, the disc exists.

New Manufacturing Process for HD DVD-RAM Media

Originally Posted by Eug 

??? DVD-R you mean. DVD+R is not even part of the DVD specification.

I know. It is still widely used and most drives are compatible. It can be used more reliably than DVD-R for cheap backup. When DVD-RAM discs were used on the Apple towers, one disc was enough for most machines. Smaller hard-drives back then.

Originally Posted by Eug 

It would seem you don't understand the issue very well yet you are willing to make broad and baseless statements. I mean seriously. You proclaimed that Apple's installed base meant that they were all set up for HD movies... but hadn't even heard of the basic concept of HDCP.

I had not heard of the intitalism. At least I did not remember it. Throwing jargon at people and expecting them to understand is lazy at best. Impolite at worst.

Originally Posted by Eug 

And then you go on to suggest that DVD+R was the successor of DVD-RAM, which of course is wrong. It might also be of interest to you that after Apple's stint with DVD-RAM, Apple "chose" DVD-R, not DVD+R.

There never was a 'format war' between DVD-R and DVD+R. DVD-R came first, but Apple didn't support it in 1997. It was using DVD RAM. You are so stuck in some format war that you missed the point entirely. Point was that Apple always chose DVD (and compatibles) as the optical format. DVD-RAM is DVD, so is DVD-R and DVD+R (except it doesn't get the forum's seal of approval).

You were insinuating that DVD-RAM was a competitor to DVD-R/+R. It never was. It isn't even compatible. It was just used as a large Jaz drive until something cheaper would come along.

Even so, I am talking about Apple today. Not Apple of 1997. Only if you were willfully obtuse could you understand my meaning any differently. Apple wasn't a media giant back in '97. It wasn't a media 'anything'. This is a strawman argument you are making. Apple in the last 7 years has been incredible at leading the digital world. So you bring up an example from 10 years ago when Apple was a master of nothing and was about to go under. Nice strawman.

Originally Posted by Eug 

If you don't understand even the basics, then it's hard to take your proclamations seriously, especially when they are based on arguments simply (and incorrectly) citing the infallibility of Apple.

Sure if you take Apple from 1992 or 1997 or 1985 or etc etc. Since 2000 Apple has been infallable compared to any other company in the industry. It's because they have a market that works for them. It was Mac users who first got the iPod and realized that this was something cool. Mac users want to do something with their computers. I don't know why. Many companies had made mp3 players before. With really cool specs and all. Cheap. Whatever. They were still crap and nobody wanted them.

Mac users made the iTMS possible, because they proved there was market for digital DRM'd music sold on the internet. Still many had tried before and failed. Many would try after and fail.

History repeats itself. People find faith in the marketing and development skills of Microsoft. Again. This time, surely it will work. Do people never learn?

The amount of dedicated HD-DVD players and Blu-Ray players sold is pathetic. There isn't even a market yet. Apple could overnight change that. That's power, that's influence. People actually do watch movies on their Macs or PCs. 7.1 sound too much for a PC? Probably but so is 5.1 sound and heck DVDs are widely used on computers.

More so in computers than dedicated players. Picture that.

V

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

The amount of dedicated HD-DVD players and Blu-Ray players sold is pathetic. There isn't even a market yet. Apple could overnight change that. That's power, that's influence. People actually do watch movies on their Macs or PCs. 7.1 sound too much for a PC? Probably but so is 5.1 sound and heck DVDs are widely used on computers.

I think you overestimate the demand for HD media, at least when it comes to the computer. People watch movies on their computers, but they're low-def youtube videos and dvd rips in half resolution. Adding an even higher resolution optical media option isn't going to change that at this point. People want content fast and are sacrificing quality.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

I think you overestimate the demand for HD media, at least when it comes to the computer. People watch movies on their computers, but they're low-def youtube videos and dvd rips in half resolution. Adding an even higher resolution optical media option isn't going to change that at this point. People want content fast and are sacrificing quality.

Not to intentional come to voodoo's defense, but people are not watching full-length feature movies on youtube.

I'd love a HD DVD drive in my MacBook. I do all of my video rentals through Netflix, and I am on the road enough that I watch about half my movies on my MacBook or in locations that people don't have HDDVD units. So I can't take a movie I planned to watch at home on my HDDVD player with me on the road.

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Not to intentional come to voodoo's defense, but people are not watching full-length feature movies on youtube.

I'd love a HD DVD drive in my MacBook. I do all of my video rentals through Netflix, and I am on the road enough that I watch about half my movies on my MacBook or in locations that people don't have HDDVD units. So I can't take a movie I planned to watch at home on my HDDVD player with me on the road.

That is true. However I would bet (read: have no stats on and am just guessing) that most full-length movies are only watched on computers in your same circumstance - because of travel. The demand will only be there when people start building libraries with these new formats, and outside of the early adopter nerds that just hasn't happened yet.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Not to intentional come to voodoo's defense, but people are not watching full-length feature movies on youtube.

No, but I do know many many people who watch low def TV and movie content on their computers and iPods.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

That is true. However I would bet (read: have no stats on and am just guessing) that most full-length movies are only watched on computers in your same circumstance - because of travel. The demand will only be there when people start building libraries with these new formats, and outside of the early adopter nerds that just hasn't happened yet.

Who you calling a NERD!!!???!!!

Go on a predominately business flight. More than half will be watching movies.

I must concede one point though, I do watch movies on my iPod on occasion when my laptop is inconvenient.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by goMac 

No, but I do know many many people who watch low def TV and movie content on their computers and iPods.

Possibly because HD content of that type is nearly impossible to find.

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Who you calling a NERD!!!???!!!

Go on a predominately business flight. More than half will be watching movies.

I must concede one point though, I do watch movies on my iPod on occasion when my laptop is inconvenient.

Actually I'm calling myself a nerd.

I've started watching videos on my iPhone, since it's a hassle to pull out the MacBook and squeeze everything into the 6" of space the airplanes give you now.

[ort888]

To be honest, so far I am not super impressed with my HD DVD player.

The movies do look noticeably better, but the increase in quality is not that big of a deal.

We are talking about a 10% - 20% increase in noticeable difference between a regular DVD and an HD DVD.

In some ways I'm relieved. I was kind of worried that I would never want to go back to regular DVDs again, but I'm finding that normal DVDs look so good on the HD-A2 that it isn't going to be an issue.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Jargon usually hides ignorance and carries little knowledge. Besides, knowing acronyms and initialisms by heart isn't knowledge or understanding. As well you know.

HDCP is not jargon. This is basic information, and one piece of information that nullifies a large part of your previous argument. ie. Most Macs are NOT set up for proper support of either optical hi-def format, because they simply don't support HDCP. This is actually quite a signficant problem, in terms of installed base.

Goody. DVD-RAM discs came in a cartridge and were only used for backup purposes. It was never to be 'the DVD writeable' format. That would come later as DVD-R, again as well you know. DVD-RAM is comparable to Jaz drives if anything. Not actual DVDs.

Companies in the DVD Forum developed DVD-RAM to be THE writeable computer format on DVD. However, people didn't like it (for good reason), and other companies within the DVD Forum pushed DVD-R and DVD-RW instead, cuz it was cheaper, easier to implement, and more convenient.

It's not a very good argument against Apple's media predictions now is it? Of course not.
I had not heard of the intitalism. At least I did not remember it. Throwing jargon at people and expecting them to understand is lazy at best. Impolite at worst.

And criticizing people who poke holes in your ill-formed theories is arrogant at best.

Anyways, so far, your response to my HDCP comment is to attack me for saying it, without actually addressing the issue.

There never was a 'format war' between DVD-R and DVD+R. DVD-R came first, but Apple didn't support it in 1997. It was using DVD RAM. You are so stuck in some format war that you missed the point entirely. Point was that Apple always chose DVD (and compatibles) as the optical format. DVD-RAM is DVD, so is DVD-R and DVD+R (except it doesn't get the forum's seal of approval).

DVD-R and DVD+R had quite a serious format war. Even Jobs himself used to lob jabs at +R during the war. Again, DVD+R was NEVER a sanctioned format by the DVD Forum. It is completely separate, hence the DVD+/- format war. I simply can't understand how you completely missed the DVD-/+R format war, considering it's pretty much common knowledge.

Luckily, the formats were alike enough that eventually cheap dual-format drives made the whole war moot.

You were insinuating that DVD-RAM was a competitor to DVD-R/+R. It never was. It isn't even compatible. It was just used as a large Jaz drive until something cheaper would come along.

As I said, DVD-RAM was originally developed as THE writable format by those who developed it, but many people didn't like it. Competing interests (esp. Pioneer) pushed DVD-R. Remember, the DVD Forum isn't one monolithic organization, but a series of competing companies which obtain different amounts of royalites on DVD technologies based on their contributions to the various formats approved by the DVD Forum.

Even so, I am talking about Apple today. Not Apple of 1997. Only if you were willfully obtuse could you understand my meaning any differently. Apple wasn't a media giant back in '97. It wasn't a media 'anything'. This is a strawman argument you are making. Apple in the last 7 years has been incredible at leading the digital world. So you bring up an example from 10 years ago when Apple was a master of nothing and was about to go under. Nice strawman.

So, how is saying "Whatever Apple chooses must be correct" more than blind fanboyism on your part?

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by ort888 

To be honest, so far I am not super impressed with my HD DVD player.

The movies do look noticeably better, but the increase in quality is not that big of a deal.

We are talking about a 10% - 20% increase in noticeable difference between a regular DVD and an HD DVD.

In some ways I'm relieved. I was kind of worried that I would never want to go back to regular DVDs again, but I'm finding that normal DVDs look so good on the HD-A2 that it isn't going to be an issue.

I couldn't disagree more. I never want to go back to regular DVDs again, and I don't even have the best HD setup.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by ort888 

To be honest, so far I am not super impressed with my HD DVD player.

The movies do look noticeably better, but the increase in quality is not that big of a deal.

We are talking about a 10% - 20% increase in noticeable difference between a regular DVD and an HD DVD.

In some ways I'm relieved. I was kind of worried that I would never want to go back to regular DVDs again, but I'm finding that normal DVDs look so good on the HD-A2 that it isn't going to be an issue.

Really? I find that even on my 720p TV that the cheapo Toshiba HD-DVD player has much better sound and picture over my top of the line sony DVD player.

They thing that bugs me is the little features that are absent. When I push stop on the HD-DVD player the movie restarts from the beginning, where as I can eject and reinsert a DVD on the Sony and it will pick up where it left off. I turn on the HD-DVD player and about 5 minutes later I am watching a movie. I turn on the Sony DVD player and I am watching a movie in 20 seconds or less.

Playing DVDs in the Toshiba is a miserable experience. I find the picture quality is better on the Sony DVD player.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by jokell82 

I couldn't disagree more. I never want to go back to regular DVDs again, and I don't even have the best HD setup.

Other than the issues I stated in the post above, I agree with you.

[icruise]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

I turn on the HD-DVD player and about 5 minutes later I am watching a movie. I turn on the Sony DVD player and I am watching a movie in 20 seconds or less.

5 minutes? I recall some discussion about this issue before, but that's insane! That would drive me absolutely crazy.

[ort888]

Well, I went from a 360 to the HD-A2. So the jump in quality is noticeable.

It might have something to do with the fact that I have a 51" screen and sit 15 feet away from it.

Don't get me wrong, I definitely see a difference. It's just that, in my opinion, regular DVD look pretty good to me.

I'm much more worried about the movie itself then how good it looks. How much will HD add to my experience? Probably not that much in the grand scheme of things.

Still very happy with my purchase.