[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by sek929 

In general I am skeptical about anyone who thinks they 'know the deal.'

My old sig:
Trust those who seek the truth. Distrust those who have found it.

[Shaddim]

or watch and then kill you, apparently snuff films are getting popular again. Personally, I blame Family Guy.

[Dakarʒ]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

But you don't have the right to tell someone to stop posting.

I didn't say that.

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Others may be interested though. I don't post just for you. You asked specific questions I had the answers to. I answered them. Why you wouldn't WANT that answer is beyond me. Maybe it's because I am giving you answers you don't like, or don't have a response to? I don't know. Makes no sense. If I was being honestly curious about a subject, and not just trolling I'd want to know all I could know about a subject. Esp from people that have studied these things. You attempting to pick and choose who gets to respond to you and who does not makes it seem like you have a different agenda than the one you are projecting.

Well, I got the full repertoire there. Look at the difference between how you and Railroader respond to me and you'll find your answer.

[Dakarʒ]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

Your soul for some pudding pops?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

I didn't say that.

I am sorry, you were telling me to stop responding to you

Kevin, what part of "I'm not interested in what you have to say" didn't you understand?

Basically telling me to shut up.

Well, I got the full repertoire there. Look at the difference between how you and Railroader respond to me and you'll find your answer.

It went from you not having any interest in anything I say, to now how I respond to you. Nothing in my posts to you was out of line.

However, your replies to me were rude and uncalled for.

I assure you me and Rail believe the same things.

I just don't "play the game" and cut to the chase and state it like it is.

There is really only one reason someone would want someone to stop responding to their posts. And it really has nothing to do with the person responding either.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by sek929 

It reminds me of the Mormon episode of South Park.

The whole time they basically sh!t on that religion, but in the end Stan realizes how happy the Mormon family is and eventually sees that even if you believe something others may consider 'stupid' it doesn't matter.

Love and compassion is what humans should strive for, no matter how you slice it.

Galatians 5:14 NASB - For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

[paul w]

My neighbor's pretty hot actually...

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by sek929 

I'm not talking on a personal level, but the whole idea of organized religion.

You and Kevin both practice your faith outside of the herd, and I respect that. It just seems (to me, of course) that to many believers are almost cocky about how they're saved, and the rest of us are not.

Again, not talking about anyone here personally. It's just my short experience in the Catholic church and observations among the less eloquent hordes of believers.

There's NOTHING cocky about biblical salvation. It's about the most humbling thing you can imagine. I question the beliefs of anyone who professes otherwise.

There are many people who claim to be Christians who are not. I used to be the guy who acted as though I could separate who is and who isn't. I now correctly leave that to God. But the Bible does say that many will say they know God, but really they don't.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by sek929 

As you have seen I have many issues with cocky Atheists, in fact it was the reason I made my first post in this thread.

In general I am skeptical about anyone who thinks they 'know the deal.'

I noted that. Another reason I have a high amount of respect for you.

I don't claim to know "the deal", I claim what I believe. When I am dead, I will know the deal.

[Dakarʒ]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

I am sorry, you were telling me to stop responding to you

Kevin, what part of "I'm not interested in what you have to say" didn't you understand?

Basically telling me to shut up.

I'm making sure you knew I wasn't interested in your content or going to respond. If you'd like to continue to pointlessly respond to the rest of my inquiries, go right ahead. Since this MacNN you may get a response from someone whom it wasn't addressed to.

Originally Posted by Kevin 

I assure you me and Rail believe the same things.

Maybe, maybe not. Christianity is notoriously diverse (its strength and weakness). It's pretty difficult to find two people who agree on everything.

But as I said, the key here is how RR is handling my inquires or difficulties.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

Your soul for some pudding pops?

Done.

[Dakarʒ]

You got fleeced my friend. I would have easily parted with Bill Cosby and some pudding pops.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

I'm making sure you knew I wasn't interested in your content or going to respond. If you'd like to continue to pointlessly respond to the rest of my inquiries, go right ahead. Since this MacNN you may get a response from someone whom it wasn't addressed to.

This is too true!

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

Maybe, maybe not. Christianity is notoriously diverse (its strength and weakness). It's pretty difficult to find two people who agree on everything.

We do agree* more than anyone else on here so far. Well, as far as the vocal one on here are. There are probably some who are wise (joke) enough not to get into these discussion. And they may agree with what I/wee believe, but may have entirely different ways of responding. As you well noted.






*Except for his love of Neons. I can't STAND them.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

We do agree* more than anyone else on here so far. Well, as far as the vocal one on here are. There are probably some who are wise (joke) enough not to get into these discussion.

I think Jawbone and I agree on the second part there...

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

I think Jawbone and I agree on the second part there...

Don't think I haven't noticed that. I'd love to know how you and him feel about some of this.

Jawbone, being Pentecostal, is probably someone who I agree on Biblical topics quite a bit. I'd LOVE going to a Church service with him.

You have held your Christian "affiliation" cards quite tightly to the chest. What denomination do you most affiliate with? Feel free to PM that to me if you don't want to reveal it publicly.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

You have held your Christian "affiliation" cards quite tightly to the chest. What denomination do you most affiliate with? Feel free to PM that to me if you don't want to reveal it publicly.

I'm all over the place.

Until I was 10, I went to a Covenant church, I was confirmed in a Methodist church, went to a non-denominational split from an E. Free church throughout high school, I've attended and worked with a non-denominational (but with close Baptist affiliations) church throughout college, but just this year I started going to a Vineyard church with the other leaders of the high school ministry I helped start.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

I'm all over the place.

Until I was 10, I went to a Covenant church, I was confirmed in a Methodist church, went to a non-denominational split from an E. Free church throughout high school, I've attended and worked with a non-denominational (but with close Baptist affiliations) church throughout college, but just this year I started going to a Vineyard church with the other leaders of the high school ministry I helped start.

Only in America!

You guys like your churches like you like your coffee - about 80 million variations!

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

You got fleeced my friend. I would have easily parted with Bill Cosby and some pudding pops.

As a gag I used to keep "soul contracts" in the pocket of my briefcase, even got some nice black envelopes to keep them in. Had a lawyer friend write it up to make them look really official.

Anyway, most of the time people would just look at the "contract" and laugh. A few times I "bought" souls for $5 or $10, they'd sign the document with a red Montblanc pen that I kept in my case, and we'd all get a get laugh out of it.

However, one time at a coffee shop some girl I barely knew told me she'd give anything for a cigarette, so I whipped out a contract and took a whole pack of Camel Lights out of my jacket pocket and placed them next to it. She giggled over it, but then took the pen and signed her name. We joked over the whole thing, and she picked up the pack of smokes and went off to wherever she was going. Many months later I ran into her again and she was kinda freaked out over the whole thing and asked me to give her the signed contract. I just smiled and winked at her and told her "a deal's a deal", but then she went nuts and started crying. As you could imagine, I felt bad at that point, but I didn't have my case with me. So, we agreed to meet the next day and I'd bring it to her, but unfortunately she died in a car accident that night.

Well, no she didn't die, that last part was a joke. But she did meet me, and even brought me a pack of Camel Lights to pay for the "contract". She even burned the thing in the parking lot while we were standing there, and then stalked away, giving me dirty looks over her shoulder. It was priceless.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

You have intentionally misconstrued what I said.

If I have misconstrued what you said, I assure you it wasn't intentional.

Originally Posted by Railroader 

We are all evil. Christians have simply chosen to acknowledge God, worship Him, and try to live the life worthy of the gift we are given. That is why we do good things. Not for "Heaven points" as someone said earlier. Atheists's good deeds are all from a selfish stand point. They are done to make themselves feel good.

I was the one who mentioned "Heaven Points." I meant it as mirror of your "atheists' good deeds are selfish" claim. Both are ways of cynically framing other people's good deeds so that they look selfish. I don't believe you have any more reason to believe your cynical assessment than I do to believe mine, though admittedly mine was just a parody.

Originally Posted by Railroader 

What's a shame is you not realizing that it is exactly what I thought.

I don't mean what you thought of the first sentence of my post, which is all Kevin replied to. That first sentence was just me objecting to something you said. It wasn't my actual point at all.

Originally Posted by Railroader 

Galatians 5:14 NASB - For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

But here's the problem: It's possible for an atheist to do this just as much as it is for a Christian. Was there an addendum to this verse where he said, "LOL J/K, IT'S ACTUALLY ABOUT GOING TO THE RIGHT CHURCH"?

[sek929]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

But here's the problem: It's possible for an atheist to do this just as much as it is for a Christian.

Which is why the idea of heaven being exclusive doesn't sit well with me.

Good deeds through an entire life should deserve reward no matter what the religious affiliation.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

I see a habit of this by the same few people in here. I just say drop it. They are obviously just trolling, aren't into actually having a civil conversation, and your words are going to wasted ears.

WTF? When I say that he's claiming all atheists' good deeds are selfishly motivated, you tell me that of course he wasn't claiming such a thing and I just misunderstood. Now he comes right out and says it: "Atheists's good deeds are all from a selfish stand point." And somehow I'm trolling? I know you and Railroader are buddies and all, so you don't want to attack him, but you could at least not make up **** about me.

[Face Ache]

I've worked with a few people who were complete and utter knobs before becoming "born again".

Then they became holier-than-thou complete and utter knobs.

[sek929]

I don't think Jesus can cure being an asshat.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

If I have misconstrued what you said, I assure you it wasn't intentional.

I was the one who mentioned "Heaven Points." I meant it as mirror of your "atheists' good deeds are selfish" claim. Both are ways of cynically framing other people's good deeds so that they look selfish. I don't believe you have any more reason to believe your cynical assessment than I do to believe mine, though admittedly mine was just a parody.

I don't mean what you thought of the first sentence of my post, which is all Kevin replied to. That first sentence was just me objecting to something you said. It wasn't my actual point at all.

But here's the problem: It's possible for an atheist to do this just as much as it is for a Christian. Was there an addendum to this verse where he said, "LOL J/K, IT'S ACTUALLY ABOUT GOING TO THE RIGHT CHURCH"?

Have you kept the Law? Have you treated everyone as you would want to be treated? If you have not, then you have fallen short of keeping the Law. I can't see an atheist (let alone any human) being able to keep the Law and never breaking it.

And who said anything about the right Church??!?! You really need to drop this misconception.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Only in America!

You guys like your churches like you like your coffee - about 80 million variations!

That's just Baptists and Methodists!

[shifuimam]

Back to what the OP asked...

I'd have to say I don't believe in karma. The most horrible people I know IRL have had EVERYTHING work out for them perfectly.

This guy I know is possibly the biggest asshole on the planet after the typical list of totalitarian and facist dictators, and at 53 he now has a trophy wife, a huge house in an affluent neighborhood, a $45,000 Lexus, and he makes around $250k a year. You tell me how karma fits into that.

[Laminar]

$250K a year and the best he can think to do is a Lexus?

That's what's wrong with him: Karma stole his taste.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

This guy I know is possibly the biggest asshole on the planet after the typical list of totalitarian and facist dictators, and at 53 he now has a trophy wife, a huge house in an affluent neighborhood, a $45,000 Lexus, and he makes around $250k a year. You tell me how karma fits into that.

So because things don't work out exactly how you would like, you suppose causality doesn't exist?

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

So because things don't work out exactly how you would like, you suppose causality doesn't exist?

And therein lies the problem with "karma." Who decides who deserves what?

[Chuckit]

No more than the problem with gravity is "Who decides what deserves to fall fast or slow?"

The real problem is that people think karma means "I'm right and you're wrong and you should be punished for it." Like I said earlier, karma is not some flyswatter God smacks you with when you do bad things. Karma is causality. If you screw someone over in order to get rich, you have done an action with the consequence of getting rich — that is in your karma. It's not surprising if you get rich. People get this stuff all confused just because you use the Eastern term rather than the Western.

[Laminar]

I think your definition doesn't fit what the OP had in mind when he posted.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

There are probably some who are wise (joke) enough not to get into these discussion.

There are. And I think I just joined their ranks. I'll leave any talking to be done in private. Those usually participating in these threads aren't doing it to learn something new, or be enlightened.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

And therein lies the problem with "karma." Who decides who deserves what?

You do. You make the decision as to what happens to you by your actions. No one does anything to you.

[Graviton]

Behaving morally because a celestial creator says so, or you fear karmic reprisals, or you have a social contract, or you read a book on secular ethics, are all crappy reasons for being moral. None of them are logically sound excuses for why you should be moral, but then morality is not a thing of logic.

Moral choices are ultimately about self definition. You are the way you are because you choose to be that way, because that is the person you wish to be in the world. Your excuses (religious or secular) do not make you moral, your actions do.

As the great philosopher Popeye said "I yam what I yam"

[CharlesS]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

No more than the problem with gravity is "Who decides what deserves to fall fast or slow?"

Galileo would be slapping himself in the face at that comment. Everything falls at the same rate!

[Graviton]

Everybody knows gravity is controlled by invisible purple pixies, all called Bernard (Bernard 1, Bernard 2, Bernard3, aaaand so on)..

[Dakarʒ]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

We do agree* more than anyone else on here so far. Well, as far as the vocal one on here are. There are probably some who are wise (joke) enough not to get into these discussion. And they may agree with what I/wee believe, but may have entirely different ways of responding. As you well noted.

It's a fact. It's also been noticed that you seem to get when I'm joking, even if you may not find it funny.

Originally Posted by Laminar 

I think Jawbone and I agree on the second part there...

Yeah, I'm a little surprised you dabbled in the thread. Luckily very rarely do we agree so strongly that I have to take it to you.
yeah that's right

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Only in America!

You guys like your churches like you like your coffee - about 80 million variations!

That may the best I've ever seen it put.

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

As a gag I used to keep "soul contracts" in the pocket of my briefcase, even got some nice black envelopes to keep them in. Had a lawyer friend write it up to make them look really official.

Anyway, most of the time people would just look at the "contract" and laugh. A few times I "bought" souls for $5 or $10, they'd sign the document with a red Montblanc pen that I kept in my case, and we'd all get a get laugh out of it.

However, one time at a coffee shop some girl I barely knew told me she'd give anything for a cigarette, so I whipped out a contract and took a whole pack of Camel Lights out of my jacket pocket and placed them next to it. She giggled over it, but then took the pen and signed her name. We joked over the whole thing, and she picked up the pack of smokes and went off to wherever she was going. Many months later I ran into her again and she was kinda freaked out over the whole thing and asked me to give her the signed contract. I just smiled and winked at her and told her "a deal's a deal", but then she went nuts and started crying. As you could imagine, I felt bad at that point, but I didn't have my case with me. So, we agreed to meet the next day and I'd bring it to her, but unfortunately she died in a car accident that night.

Well, no she didn't die, that last part was a joke. But she did meet me, and even brought me a pack of Camel Lights to pay for the "contract". She even burned the thing in the parking lot while we were standing there, and then stalked away, giving me dirty looks over her shoulder. It was priceless.

I would have tried to get sex out of it, or at the very least a bj. no not really

I think I now imagine you as the devil from Reaper.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Dakarʒ 

Yeah, I'm a little surprised you dabbled in the thread. Luckily very rarely do we agree so strongly that I have to take it to you.
yeah that's right

Experience has taught me that an internet message board doesn't always foster the most productive conversation. But people seemed to be asking honest questions, so I went for it.

Originally Posted by Railroader

You have held your Christian "affiliation" cards quite tightly to the chest. What denomination do you most affiliate with? Feel free to PM that to me if you don't want to reveal it publicly.

To complicate things further, I spent the summer working at a Lutheran Bible camp and I'm dating the daughter of a Lutheran pastor. So I'm all over the place.

[Dakarʒ]

I think you're just trying to cover all bases, religious and sexual.

[Laminar]

Well I figure if I dabble in every denomination at least once, I have to be right at some point.

[Shaddim]

I would have tried to get sex out of it, or at the very least a bj. no not really

I think I now imagine you as the devil from Reaper.

Nah, no sex. For one, she's not a small woman, by any stretch of the imagination. Two, it was just a gag, though it did run out for quite some time. Those usually are the best though, I've got some jokes in the works that have been going for several years. The all time best was a practical joke that took 12 years to materialize, and when it did the person called me from Norway, twice, just to yell at me.

It's safe to say that most of my friends and family think I have a very morbid sense of humor. I've worked on it all my life.

[Dakarʒ]

You sound like a freakin' master. My picture selection stands.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Graviton 

Everybody knows gravity is controlled by invisible purple pixies, all called Bernard (Bernard 1, Bernard 2, Bernard3, aaaand so on)..

I don't suppose that's very different than the Graviton particle theory.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by CharlesS 

Galileo would be slapping himself in the face at that comment. Everything falls at the same rate!

No, everything accelerates at the same rate under the same gravitational influence, and that's only guaranteed in a vacuum.

[Kevin]

[Chuckit]

Says the guy with the Mac GUI modification sig? At least I have the good sense to have a stupid signature.

[Kevin]

It wasn't a personal jab Chuckit. It was just an attempt at humor.

I apologize if you took offense to it.

[Chuckit]

Nah, I wasn't offended. Mine was an attempt at humor, too, though obviously less successful. I figured bragging that my signature was stupid would be a tip-off.