[jlemons]

Ok, I am planning on a new HDTV. I am actually looking at a couple of them. I need a 42" for the family room and a 32" or 37" for our bedroom. I have decided on the Toshiba Regza for both TVs. Both TVs have a QAM tuner. Now for my question. With a QAM tuner do I pick up digital signals? Can I pick up HD signals without a box? I do not want to use a box. Will I be disappointed with the picture quality or if I get digital channels will they make up the difference. I have comcast, do they air the digital channels for free ( meaning included with my normal bill) or do I have to pay more? Please help me understand all of this.
Does anyone here use a LCD TV with no HD signal? Are you happy? Help, before I blow my money and mind.

[Railroader]

We need a "What HDTV should I buy?" forum.

Now.

[Dakar the Fourth]

If anything we just have a sticky and be done with it.

[jlemons]

Wow guys thanks for the great input. I will take all of these suggestions into consideration when making my decision.

[brassplayersrock²]

what they're saying jlemons is that there have been a few other threads about what you're inquiring. a thread search would help you out.

[imitchellg5]

I will admit that the world of HD can be confusing. You should search for a site dedicated to helping people live in HD.

[jlemons]

Yes, I know, I was just hoping for some quick answers. Most people around here seem pretty Tech Savvy and was hoping they could have some answers. But, it seems these days, the more I read forums, people are more interested in making wisecracks and telling people to do a forum search than they are interested in actually helping. I believed my post to be fairly specific and easy to answer if someone had comcast with an HDTV. I have found the answers I was looking for by just asking people in person. Seems people are a lot more helpful when they are asked face to face.

[brassplayersrock²]

if people didn't do thread searches, and just posted all their questions in new threads, there would be literally 100s of threads covering the exact same subject flowing throughout the forums.

btw, some of your org. post is asking questions only you can answer by trying out the systems you want.

"Will I be disappointed with the picture quality": example


"I have comcast, do they air the digital channels for free ( meaning included with my normal bill) or do I have to pay more?" : call comcast

"With a QAM tuner do I pick up digital signals"
http://www.highdefforum.com/archive/...p/t-37012.html

[Teronzhul]

A Tv with an integrated QAM tuner will have the ability to pick up digital channels broadcast "in the clear" on a cable system. Typically Comcast carries the local channels in digital such that your tv can see them. This may not be true in all Comcast markets. All other digital channels will be encrypted on Comcast's system, and will require either a cable box or a cablecard. The cablecard will allow the tv to view the additional encrypted digital channels, but they are often buggy and allow only 1 way communication so no VOD etc. Also, markets currently supporting CableCard may not do so in the future.

[goMac]

First, there are two kinds of HD channels.

There is what is called "Over the air" HD channels. These are just the HD channels you could normally pick up with an old fashion antenna (typically your local channels). The cable companies transmit these channels for free, unencrypted, over their cable lines.

Then there are your Cable HD channels. These are channels that are transmitted in HD that you cannot get over the air. These channels include your typical cable fair, USA HD, TNT HD, TBS HD, etc. The cable channels send these over your wire as encrypted channels.

A TV with a QAM tuner can pick up the unencrypted over the air channels (so pretty much a QAM tuner can pick up your local channels in HD). However, a TV with a QAM tuner cannot pick up your encrypted cable channels, because it doesn't know what kind of secret encryption your cable company uses (So no TNT HD, USA HD, ESPN HD, etc...).

There are a few solutions to this. The first is to get a cable box from your cable company, which will know how to decrypt your cable channels and send them to your tv in HD.

Solution number two involves something called CableCard. Some tvs come with CableCard, and what it is is a slot in your tv that you can put a card that you get from your cable company. This card tells your tv's QAM tuner how to decrypt those cable channels that normally your QAM tuner can't read.

Unfortunately it seems like the current batch of TV's generally don't ship with CableCard. I have one of last year's models and mine does have CableCard (although I'm yet to actually ask my cable company for the actual card). Your cable company is mandated by federal law that they have to provide you with a CableCard if you ask for one.

Also, be aware, Over the Air HD channels on cable are not broadcast on the same channel as their SD cousins. For example, here in Seattle we have KING channel 5, which is our NBC channel. The SD version is broadcast on channel 5 (obviously), but for a long time Comcast put KING HD on like channel 113. Every time I would contact them to ask them where they were transmitting KING HD, they would yank my chain and tell me I needed a cable box. Finally, under pressure, they moved King HD to channel "5-1" (that's right, HD channels can have dashes in their numbers...) It is federal law again that the cable channels have to transmit these over the air channels for free, so don't let the cable companies yank your chain on that either.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Teronzhul 

This may not be true in all Comcast markets.

It's federal law that they have to transmit anything over the air in HD for free. Comcast will try hiding the channels to trick customers, but they are there.

Originally Posted by Teronzhul 

Also, markets currently supporting CableCard may not do so in the future.

They have to. Again, CableCard is a federally mandated standard. As of July 2007 this year cable companies could no longer sell standard cable boxes. They had to either give their new customers CableCards, or cable boxes that used CableCard.

[Teronzhul]

The wording on the law you mention is debatable, goMac. The majority of cable companies are currently rebroadcasting because there hasn't been exact clarification, but several cable companies are currently attempting to have that law ammended such that they can downconvert network channels for rebroadcast to analog subscribers post 2009. I doubt the law will remain as it is, since it largely doesn't make sense right now.

Federally mandated or not, CableCard is going to either go away or see major changes. Time Warner has already abandoned it in a few markets they're converting to switched digital. Either something will have to change or other companies will proceed to ignore the law as well since it makes progress for them impossible with the current state of the systems.

Also, to clarify your previous statements, an ATSC tuner is used to gather off air networks. A QAM tuner is used for Cable systems. They are quite different in function, but most televisions built today have both types of tuners integrated and the differences are often well concealed from the end user.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Teronzhul 

The wording on the law you mention is debatable, goMac. The majority of cable companies are currently rebroadcasting because there hasn't been exact clarification, but several cable companies are currently attempting to have that law ammended such that they can downconvert network channels for rebroadcast to analog subscribers post 2009. I doubt the law will remain as it is, since it largely doesn't make sense right now.

I didn't think the plan was that analog would exist on anyone's systems post 2009. That's why we have the converter boxes to get analog people on the digital system

Originally Posted by Teronzhul 

Federally mandated or not, CableCard is going to either go away or see major changes. Time Warner has already abandoned it in a few markets they're converting to switched digital. Either something will have to change or other companies will proceed to ignore the law as well since it makes progress for them impossible with the current state of the systems.

Two way CableCard supports switched digital, and from what I have heard, cable companies testing switched digital are also testing two way cablecards.

CableCard is here to stay. Without CableCard, Tivo would be dead in the water, and the cable companies would be able to control what cable boxes you use.

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by jlemons 

Yes, I know, I was just hoping for some quick answers. Most people around here seem pretty Tech Savvy and was hoping they could have some answers. But, it seems these days, the more I read forums, people are more interested in making wisecracks and telling people to do a forum search than they are interested in actually helping. I believed my post to be fairly specific and easy to answer if someone had comcast with an HDTV. I have found the answers I was looking for by just asking people in person. Seems people are a lot more helpful when they are asked face to face.

One of the forum rules is to search for a topic before starting a thread. MacNN is a great place for help, but sometimes it would just be easier to use Google. There are a ton of resources on the internet that could help you, even with your specific issue.

[Teronzhul]

Originally Posted by goMac 

I didn't think the plan was that analog would exist on anyone's systems post 2009. That's why we have the converter boxes to get analog people on the digital system

The digital conversion has everything to do with off air signals, and nothing to do with cable systems. Considering there are still TONS of cable systems out there broadcasting analog only with no digital or HD signals, there is essentially no chance that they will all move to an all digital platform by 2009. Again, the analog cutoff date pertains only to vhf/uhf network transmissions and not to cable or satellite systems(which are already digital anyway). The digital conversion boxes coming with the government discount coupons are ATSC tuners, not QAM tuners, and will not assist a customer on a cable system. Beyond 2009 there will still be tens of millions of homes with analog only sets, connected to cable systems using analog tuners.

The reason that I brought that up to begin with, is that the law concerning retransmission currently reads (i don't have it in front of me) that the cable companies must rebroadcast the original transmission without modifications. Now, that doesn't make sense because after the digital conversion, that means that the cable companies must only rebroadcast the original transmission in original aspect ratio and native resolution. So any market that has a 16x9 1080i signal can only be rebroadcast like that, and not downconverted to 480i for the people with analog televisions whether or not they have a converter box; cable company provided or otherwise. Thus, the law is expected to be ammended, since it would lock out anyone without a tv capable of receiving the native transmission. Once that is done, it is possible that the ammendment could carry provisions or loopholes which would allow them to encrypt those channels as well.

Two way CableCard supports switched digital, and from what I have heard, cable companies testing switched digital are also testing two way cablecards.

CableCard is here to stay. Without CableCard, Tivo would be dead in the water, and the cable companies would be able to control what cable boxes you use.

OCAP is making progress, but that would do the OP little good since his TVs purchased today would be incompatible. Tivo has a converter on the horizon which will solve their issues with SD, but again not useful to the OP since he wants no converter box.

Since we did get on this tangent though, CableCard has a lot of issues that will have to be resolved for it to be of any use to anyone down the road. Maybe they'll get it all worked out, but I remain skeptical.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Teronzhul 

The reason that I brought that up to begin with, is that the law concerning retransmission currently reads (i don't have it in front of me) that the cable companies must rebroadcast the original transmission without modifications. Now, that doesn't make sense because after the digital conversion, that means that the cable companies must only rebroadcast the original transmission in original aspect ratio and native resolution. So any market that has a 16x9 1080i signal can only be rebroadcast like that, and not downconverted to 480i for the people with analog televisions whether or not they have a converter box; cable company provided or otherwise. Thus, the law is expected to be ammended, since it would lock out anyone without a tv capable of receiving the native transmission. Once that is done, it is possible that the ammendment could carry provisions or loopholes which would allow them to encrypt those channels as well.

I doubt Congress will let them modify the transmissions. They may put in a provision for allowing cable to convert them only for analog users. Regardless, the local stations have already been doing this with their analog broadcasts. Our NBC affiliate is already just taking the letterbox feed and scaling it down for the 4x3 feed so that the feed has black bars on the top and bottom for 4x3 tv's.

Originally Posted by Teronzhul 

OCAP is making progress, but that would do the OP little good since his TVs purchased today would be incompatible. Tivo has a converter on the horizon which will solve their issues with SD, but again not useful to the OP since he wants no converter box.

Since we did get on this tangent though, CableCard has a lot of issues that will have to be resolved for it to be of any use to anyone down the road. Maybe they'll get it all worked out, but I remain skeptical.

The reason I mentioned CableCard and Tivo is that without CableCard, Tivo can't view any HD cable channels. This is why Cablecard is a very good thing. It's lets 3rd party device makers get their devices onto proprietary cable networks. It's standardization that the industry needs.

The cable companies are going to be forced to use CableCard one way or another. If the cable companies would stop dragging their feet, I'm sure we'd have more of CableCard's issues worked out. Regardless, I have a friend with a dual CableCard Tivo and he hasn't had any issues.

[Tyre MacAdmin]

I will not be buying an HDTV until the blockiness and mosquito noise is finely accounted for. Even the best 1080p's still give artifacts.

This product here helps:
Algolith: Mosquito

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Tyler McAdams 

I will not be buying an HDTV until the blockiness and mosquito noise is finely accounted for. Even the best 1080p's still give artifacts.

I believe the fix is called FIOS.

[jlemons]

Wow, thank you all. Great reading. Just one comment. It was mentioned above that I could call Comcast. That was the first thing I did. Get this, my friend just bought a 32" Toshiba Regza a few days ago. He tells me after hooking up his new tv and doing the auto channel program he is picking up around 30 extra channels. They are channels such as 3.1 etc. Well one of the channels is Sprout a PBS kids station. His kid is watching Dora or something and is loving it. He adds this station to his favorites. They turn off the tv and the next morning his wife turns it on for their daughter and the channel that was Sprout last night is Porn this morning. Sprout is now gone. He is freaking out. I call Comcast and ask about getting these extra channels and they tell me that he is mistaken. He would not be getting any extra channels at least with a picture worth viewing. Well, I go over to his house and I saw it for my self. No mistake. Not only are they there, they are a better quality than all the other channels.

[Teronzhul]

Those are digital channels broadcast over QAM in the clear. What is fun is that sometimes OnDemand channels are broadcast and are viewable on these channels, but the QAM channels are constantly shifting the OnDemand content around. When using a TVs internal tuner you may catch an OnDemand PPV movie that someone else is watching and controlling real time, and that content could change at any given moment depending on who is requesting it. It isn't an issue with their boxes, because the box knows what it should/shouldn't be seeing. That is likely why he had Sprout one night, and Porn the next morning.

[Chongo]

try these two for info on HDTV's and content providers
www.avsforum.com
DBSTalk.Com