[starman]

I had this conversation with someone, which ended up in a disagreement and we no longer talk. It's sad, but that's how things are in the digital world I suppose.

There are certain aspects of what I put on the net that I expect to be archived by the owners of the sites I post on or write emails to, or taken from my own site and archived by others. My issue comes in the form of people that archive instant messenger chats. Even though I've been on the 'net for almost 20 years, I still think of IM conversations in the same vain as a regular conversation between two people: analog, fluid. Nobody records conversations with a voice recorder either in person or over a phone.

My dilemma came when I found that someone I was talking to on iChat was archiving not only my conversation, but the conversations of everyone they talk to, always. I found this to be disturbing because I just don't like the thought of someone archiving everything I write. Why? I don't think they're going to use it against me or anything, but I would prefer that my words not be archived on someone's hard drive; especially since logging is off by default. When I asked them to turn it off, they refused because you can't selectively turn off logging for specific people. I asked that they delete my posts from their hard drive on a regular basis using a cron job or some kind of automated script. Again, I was refused.

So, it bugged me to the point where I decided that I didn't think it was right that my requests as a "friend" were ignored and therefore I cut off contact with the person.

So, what are your thoughts on this? Should everything on the net be considered fair game? Should the person logging chats tell people that they are?

[alligator]

The entire net should turn over every 10 years. I have stuff on the net from 10 years ago that I no longer want out there. I contacted the owner, with no response. People make mistakes, and the internet should not be a permanent record of the mistakes.

[pooka]

What? Do you think all the teenage girls posting nudie pics online won't be proud of that fact in 15 years?

[Ghoser777]

Posting on the internet is like getting a tattoo - it seemed like a good idea at the time, but several years down the road you tend to regret it and the cost it takes to get 'em removed.

[starman]

Decent analogy. I try not to every put anything on the net that I regret.

This is more about control, though. Is it right for someone to have complete control over what you write without:

1) telling you about it up front?
2) refusing to not log what you say?

Is anything transferred over the net 'fair game'?

[Chuckit]

I don't have any problem with anybody saving Internet conversations. Like, what, are people supposed to take drugs to forget what I said to them yesterday too?

[AngelaBaby]

All of it.

[MRTrauffer]

I personally think you're making a big deal out of nothing. Do you have the right to tell me what I can or can't save to my hard drive?

There have been a number of occasions where I've needed a piece of information that was discussed digitally, that's when I search through my archived chats.

I find it surprising that you're just now figuring out that information tranfered via "the net" is fair game.

[davedecay]

Ever see what turns up at flea markets and estate sales?
Lots and lots of analog lives... photos, diaries, bits of people's lives.
Imagine in 200 years when you are gone, where will all of your belongings be?
Your baby pictures? Wedding pictures, family memories?
There's no guarantee that any of your descendents will save them; and even if they do, that disaster will not strike and render them unto the yard sales of the future.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by alligator 

The entire net should turn over every 10 years. I have stuff on the net from 10 years ago that I no longer want out there. I contacted the owner, with no response. People make mistakes, and the internet should not be a permanent record of the mistakes.

Archive everything. The benefits outweigh the risks.

As Samuel Johnson said, "There is nothing so minute or inconsiderable, that I would not rather know it than not."

[Faust]

Instant messengers are not entirely analogue.
I think you pose an interesting ethical issue though and I can understand your viewpoint but I also understand your friend's line of argument.

But, is it not also a nice thing that a friend saves instant messenger conversations with you? It could be a sign that your friend values the conversations you and he have. Like people writing letters or emails and saving them. In the old times this was something most people did. They had those little letter boxes where they kept all their communication with friends and loved ones. It doesn't need to have any evil implications.

If you don't want that though and specifically ask your friend to talk to you loosely like he would on the phone, then it probably is a wish he/she should respect.

[starman]

Originally Posted by MRTrauffer 

I personally think you're making a big deal out of nothing. Do you have the right to tell me what I can or can't save to my hard drive?

There have been a number of occasions where I've needed a piece of information that was discussed digitally, that's when I search through my archived chats.

I find it surprising that you're just now figuring out that information tranfered via "the net" is fair game.

As stated above, it's an ethical issue. If I don't want my conversations recorded, who are you to say that you won't respect my wishes? As people on the net say all the time, if you don't like the rules, your choice is to not use the service. The same applies here. I don't like a person's policy, I choose not to participate in chats with them.

So yes, I should have some rights to my own conversations, shouldn't I?

And no, I'm not "just figuring it out now", this is the first time the issue has come up. Nobody I know saves IM chats.

[ibookuser2]

I log all my chats, and have never thought that there was anything wrong with it. Occasionally, I go back to the logs to remind myself what time I informally agreed to meet with someone when I was chatting, or to retrieve a URL from a chat I remember.

I save all of my e-mail, too. I keep several years worth of correspondence on my computer that I occasionally refer to.

The way I see it is that it's private communication. I wouldn't ever share the contents of a log with someone who wasn't involved in the conversation. I also don't ever allow people to use my account on my computer who might accidentally or deliberately view private files like the logs. It's the same way I don't go around publicly announcing what I talked to my friends about while I was eating lunch on Tuesday or whenever.

Also, no matter how informally you use it, it's written correspondence. You shouldn't write things without the expectation that written correspondence is easy to save and once you give it to someone else, you've lost some control over what can be done with it.

Now, if your friend were recording telephone calls, video chats, face-to-face conversations, and other spoken communication without your knowledge, then I certainly agree, that would be creepy.

[Kerrigan]

Originally Posted by Tiresias 

As Samuel Johnson said, "There is nothing so minute or inconsiderable, that I would not rather know it than not."

I'm not very happy to know that all the crap I've posted here, plus all the porn sites I've visited, and all the time I've wasted reading Mac rumors, will be archived somewhere for all eternity.

[OwlBoy]

I think you will find most chat programs keep histories. If anyone uses Adium, I think it is on by default. It is really useful to get times, and dates, or urls. I don't see why you are surprised.

Any communication you do on the internet can be tacked or logged.

-Owl

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by starman 

So yes, I should have some rights to my own conversations, shouldn't I?

Do you ask people to burn your letters too? I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

I'm not very happy to know that all the crap I've posted here...

This is why I don't use my real name.

[Mastrap]

^ Anybody remember well.com? The reason they asked people to use, and verify, their real name was so posters stood by their words.

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by starman 

As stated above, it's an ethical issue. If I don't want my conversations recorded, who are you to say that you won't respect my wishes?

You sent the message, it's his/hers to decide what to do with it. No different than email.

So yes, I should have some rights to my own conversations, shouldn't I?

You gave up that right when you sent the message. If you didn't want it saved, you shouldn't have sent it to another party.

And no, I'm not "just figuring it out now", this is the first time the issue has come up. Nobody I know saves IM chats.

So you think. Might happen more than you think you know about.

[Person Man]

Originally Posted by Mastrap 

^ Anybody remember well.com? The reason they asked people to use, and verify, their real name was so posters stood by their words.

All well and good for them, but I like the freedom to post what we like here with the assurances that we have some control over who finds out our real names or not.

If I was ever to post on well.com (or whatever other sites that chose to do that), I'd create a real-life alias first. It's not that I have anything to hide, or don't want to "stand by my words," but what's acceptable to people my age today may not always be acceptable to the 60-100 year-olds in my practice. And I live in a small town, where people talk.

I do make posts under my real name online. Like when I write to Macintouch, for instance. They post the letters I write. And I use my full real name on Greek websites (my patients can't spell my name correctly with Latin characters, let alone Greek ones). But the point is that *I* get to control who sees my real name.

But I'll never have a FaceBook, LiveJournal, MySpace, YouTube, (insert future Web 2.0 or even Web 3.0 tech here), for the reasons I outlined above.

[Tiresias]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

I'm not very happy to know that all the crap I've posted here, plus all the porn sites I've visited, and all the time I've wasted reading Mac rumors, will be archived somewhere for all eternity.

But you did do all those things. And one day, long after you are dead, machines of infinite intelligence will analyze the cyber footprints of every member of the extinct human species in order to better understand us. Including you. They will want to know the truth.

[natnabour]

Originally Posted by ibookuser2 

I log all my chats, and have never thought that there was anything wrong with it. Occasionally, I go back to the logs to remind myself what time I informally agreed to meet with someone when I was chatting, or to retrieve a URL from a chat I remember.

I save all of my e-mail, too. I keep several years worth of correspondence on my computer that I occasionally refer to.

The way I see it is that it's private communication. I wouldn't ever share the contents of a log with someone who wasn't involved in the conversation. I also don't ever allow people to use my account on my computer who might accidentally or deliberately view private files like the logs. It's the same way I don't go around publicly announcing what I talked to my friends about while I was eating lunch on Tuesday or whenever.

Also, no matter how informally you use it, it's written correspondence. You shouldn't write things without the expectation that written correspondence is easy to save and once you give it to someone else, you've lost some control over what can be done with it.

Now, if your friend were recording telephone calls, video chats, face-to-face conversations, and other spoken communication without your knowledge, then I certainly agree, that would be creepy.

^ what he said.

When I first starting using iChat, I wasn't aware that it was defaulted to log all of my conversations so I didn't think anything of it - until I forgot details about a party we were going to, or lost the directions to a place we were to meet, so on and so forth. Not everyone who logs chats use it for malicious acts. It's nice to have written correspondence, to refer to a joke made - it doesn't mean we sit around and re-read old chats to reminisce about the "good old days"...it's just for personal use.

A friend of mine recently expressed grief over the loss of a friend he had only known through the internet. They were on separate continents, but spent 3-4 years chatting online, exchanging songs, writing letters, video-chatting. All he has left are their logged conversations. Really, a part of his friend remains with him still through those conversations. If you ask me, logging conversations really isn't a big deal.

[swiz]

I try not to ever say or do anything I would regret so I don't really care if my words are recorded. In the event I do say something I regret, I look at it as a learning experience to help me be a better person in the future.

[peeb]

How do you feel about snail mail letters you send?

[starman]

Originally Posted by peeb 

How do you feel about snail mail letters you send?

I guess you didn't read what I wrote.

[peeb]

Well, I did, but I must have missed the bit where you said anything about that.

[Face Ache]

I expect all of my digital life to be archived so that the church that forms around me will have lots of contradictory bullshit to base their faith on.

Now, would you care for some opinions I just pulled outta my butt?

[Kerrigan]

"When one types the letter K, one must follow through by affixing "errigan" to form my holy name, then delete this affixation and carry on typing. All who disobey this command shall have eternal damnation and rape visited upon them in the afterlife" Thus spake our Lord in Post 3563535.

[RAILhead]

[starman]

Awww, what's wrong, RailHEAD? Someone hide your Webster's dictionary for children and you could only find a pic?

[RAILhead]

Uh, no. It pretty much sums it up: you're a drama queen. Get a grip -- and welcome to the 21st Century.

[Koralatov]

Originally Posted by starman 

So yes, I should have some rights to my own conversations, shouldn't I?

Nice dream, but it's never going to happen. I say a hell of a lot of things--some amusing, some inventive, most not--and I have no control over whether someone reproduces these; whether it be by writing it down somewhere, or repeating it verbally.

Nobody I know saves IM chats.

I'm pretty sure at least one of your friends logs your chats with them. I would be truly astounded if none of them did.

Originally Posted by ibookuser2 

Also, no matter how informally you use it, it's written correspondence. You shouldn't write things without the expectation that written correspondence is easy to save and once you give it to someone else, you've lost some control over what can be done with it.

Absolutely. It's like scrawling "Koralatov woz 'ere" on a wall, and then complaining when someone takes a photo of it and it appears elsewhere. I take the view that by saying anything online, there's a certain implicit permission given for them to use save the conversations and refer to them later. You can't have it both ways; if you want the convenience of IM/email/electronic communication, you have to accept some of the downsides of it.

Originally Posted by Face Ache 

I expect all of my digital life to be archived so that the church that forms around me will have lots of contradictory bullshit to base their faith on.

I forsee a holy war, then. The Church of Koralatov declares the Face-Achians to be blasphemers and cultists, and make it their holy mission to destroy them.

So, in a thousand years when people find this post, there's no doubt where I stand on the issue.