[fisherKing]

am a 12" powerbook user, and have been waiting for a 12" mbp forever (and waiting, and waiting).

decided to go see the air today, so spent some time at apple soho.
my main need for a laptop is bringing Reason 4.0, a music-making app (NOT an audio recording app) to other music studios (i do my work here on a mac desktop); also, of course, email, web, writing.

my G4 powerbook will not run Reason 4 well (it's really bad, it's a PPC thing alas); thought the air might suit me.

i also carry a lot of files on portable external drives (iomega, lacie); powered by the firewire port, they CAN be powered by usb, BUT need both ports.

i tried one of the drives (with a salesman assist) with my iomega; the air CANNOT mount it, so...would need to carry ac adapters for the drives. and of course, could not use my audio interface at the same time anyway,

the air is ok, but feels very 'consumer', sort-of the mattel version of an apple laptop. i don't care about 'world's thinnest', would have preferred 'small & powerful'.

anyway, gonna pass. and not sure what next; wait for a 12" mbp? or...???? damn u apple!!

[ibook_steve]

Seriously, don't hold your breath for a 12" MBP. The 12" PB cannibalized iBook sales as well as 15" and 17" PB sales. Yes, it was a great machine (I worked on them so I can truly appreciate it), but it ain't gonna happen. The closest you'll get is if, maybe, Apple starts using separate ATI or Nvidia GPUs in the MacBooks instead of the integrated graphics chips. This, too, is doubtful.

Steve

[peeb]

Apple tends to underpower usb ports for some reason.

[CharlesS]

Why would they care if it cannibalized iBook sales? The 12" PowerBook surely had a larger profit margin.

[peeb]

Possibly, but then you are maintaining two different designs for the same number of customers.

[fisherKing]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Possibly, but then you are maintaining two different designs for the same number of customers.

am not getting it.

there are probably 'good' reasons why there is no 12" mbp, but...i still want one.
i keep hoping that, with the next major change in the mbp design, we'll see a 12".

for now, will continue to work with my powerbook (until Reason is either fixed for the ppc macs, or a mac laptop comes out that is closer to what i want & need).

[peeb]

Well, let's make some simplifying assumptions, I know these are not strictly true, but let's assume:
1. There is a fixed number of potential customers who need a small (12 inch) laptop from Apple.
2. They will buy one.

If you have only one machine, you have one set of dev and maint costs, and you sell it to the whole group.
If you have two, your costs are increased, and you still don't sell more machines in total.
Does that make sense?

[fisherKing]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Well, let's make some simplifying assumptions, I know these are not strictly true, but let's assume:
1. There is a fixed number of potential customers who need a small (12 inch) laptop from Apple.
2. They will buy one.

If you have only one machine, you have one set of dev and maint costs, and you sell it to the whole group.
If you have two, your costs are increased, and you still don't sell more machines in total.
Does that make sense?

hmmm...all i can think of is, there is are 17" macbook pros, and the 15" macbook pros, and a 12" added to the lineup would be great (as apple did with the powerbook; something for everyone, sort-of...

speculation is fine (ie why there ISN'T a 12", or if there will ever be one).
for me, os x is the os i want, but, alas, the limited choices in a laptop is discouraging. so it goes..

[mduell]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Apple tends to underpower usb ports for some reason.

The Air's USB port is actually overpowered to support Apple's power-thirsty external Superdrive, but it may only supply the extra juice when it detects the Apple Superdrive.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Apple tends to underpower usb ports for some reason.

That's not the point. There are USB burners w/ no external power required that do indeed work with Apple notebooks.

Apple obviously chose a more power-hungry burner for the MBA and therefore had to overpower the MBA's USB port. Unfortunately that also means people can't use the slick MBA SD on anything else than a MBA. Unless of course Apple also starts overpowering the USB ports on MBPs or MBs. That however doesn't seem very likely.

[Connie]

So, the bottom line is none of the external hdd works under Macbook Air without extra AC?

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Connie 

So, the bottom line is none of the external hdd works under Macbook Air without extra AC?

Umm, no. External HDDs will work just fine. The point is that the MBA DVD burner only works with the MBA.

[OreoCookie]

External harddrives are rather finicky: I've bought a cheap USB enclosure to copy some data from a dead Mac mini to a new one, the enclosure was supposed to be USB-powered, but it wasn't for no reason that the manufacturer included a second USB cable for power only. It still wouldn't work on most active USB hubs nor on my ProBook, but fortunately it worked on the Mac mini companion harddrive.

FireWire harddrive have always worked without a hitch … but it seems as if Apple is starting to phase FireWire out, too

[Connie]

Originally Posted by Simon 

Umm, no. External HDDs will work just fine. The point is that the MBA DVD burner only works with the MBA.

Thanks, Simon. I actually opened a thread before got here. So, I hope any comments should go there for a more appropriate heading to cut down redundant topic.
Here's the thread:
http://forums.macnn.com/69/mac-noteb...compatibility/

Anyway, thanks! So it is perfectly safe to go for:
http://www.amazon.com/Iomega-33832-P...892720&sr=1-24
or
http://www.amazon.com/Western-Digita...2892925&sr=1-4

Appreciate any comments.

[Connie]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

External harddrives are rather finicky: I've bought a cheap USB enclosure to copy some data from a dead Mac mini to a new one, the enclosure was supposed to be USB-powered, but it wasn't for no reason that the manufacturer included a second USB cable for power only. It still wouldn't work on most active USB hubs nor on my ProBook, but fortunately it worked on the Mac mini companion harddrive.

FireWire harddrive have always worked without a hitch … but it seems as if Apple is starting to phase FireWire out, too

That's the real pain, I experienced similar on Dell Latitude D400 before, hooking extra AC is utterly *NOT* cool for mobile user, damn it.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Connie 

Anyway, thanks! So it is perfectly safe to go for:
Amazon.com: Iomega 33832 eGo 160 GB USB 2.0 Portable Hard Drive (Red): Computers & PC Hardware
or
Amazon.com: Western Digital 160GB 2.5-inch Passport USB Portable Hard Drive: Computers & PC Hardware

Appreciate any comments.

I don't know about the former, but I've used the latter with a MBP and a MB on several occasions and it worked just fine with only a single USB cable. It's not fast, but it's compact and it's nice to have only one short cable. If that's what you're looking for, you'll be fine with the WD.

[Connie]

Originally Posted by Simon 

It's not fast, but it's compact and it's nice to have only one short cable. If that's what you're looking for, you'll be fine with the WD.

Thanks! I'll go for it, but do you have any other(brands) recommendation?
Since you mentioned, not fast. I plan to place some mp3 and parallel desktop application and virtual machine on there, will that be a problem?

[Eug]

Do we have a link somewhere that confirms that Macs underpower USB?

I thought the issue was that USB was just inherently underpowered. Remember, USB is 5V x 0.5A, or just 2.5 Watts. 2.5 Watts is very iffy for powering external drives. That's why powered Firewire is preferred for external drives. It's 12V x 1.25A, or 15 Watts.

I always wondered why USB 2 didn't introduce 5 Watt support. That would have solved a heluvalot of problems (but would of course have introduced other design difficulties I'm sure).

[Cadaver]

Western Digital Passport external USB hard drives are fully functional/powered via only one USB port. I have two of these drives.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Cadaver 

Western Digital Passport external USB hard drives are fully functional/powered via only one USB port. I have two of these drives.

Some drives are fine powered off a single USB port, and some drives aren't. That's why I said 2.5 Watts is "iffy". With 5 Watts (or even 4 Watts), it would no longer be a hit-or-miss endeavour.

Remember, some 2.5" drives can draw up to almost 3 Watts for the drive alone, and that's not even including the enclosure.

I suspect that's why some drives specify a 5V x 1.0A supply. 5x1 = 5 Watts.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Do we have a link somewhere that confirms that Macs underpower USB?

I thought the issue was that USB was just inherently underpowered. Remember, USB is 5V x 0.5A, or just 2.5 Watts. 2.5 Watts is very iffy for powering external drives. That's why powered Firewire is preferred for external drives. It's 12V x 1.25A, or 15 Watts.

I always wondered why USB 2 didn't introduce 5 Watt support. That would have solved a heluvalot of problems (but would of course have introduced other design difficulties I'm sure).

I'm not sure that they are underpowered relative to the spec, but most laptop makers allow USB to power higher than the spec for hungry externals. Apple doesn't do this. It's embarrassing to be given a drive that works fine on a Dell, but chokes on an Apple unless you have a funky cable.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by peeb 

I'm not sure that they are underpowered relative to the spec, but most laptop makers allow USB to power higher than the spec for hungry externals. Apple doesn't do this. It's embarrassing to be given a drive that works fine on a Dell, but chokes on an Apple unless you have a funky cable.

Well, that's a good reason to get drives that support Firewire, or both USB 2 and Firewire.

With Macs, they pretty much always work over Firewire... except for the MacBook Air. With PC laptops, some drives may or may not work powered over USB 2, regardless of brand of laptop. And yes, this applies to Dell too.

[peeb]

Right, but I have never seen a drive that will work on my powerbook but not on another laptop, whereas I have often been caught out thinking that a USB drive will work on my machine because it works on someone else's. Sure, I use FW drives when I don't need to share them, but it's frustrating not to have the level of interoperability I would like. Coming from a Thinkpad, where I never had a drive choke, I didn't even realise this issue existed.

[Eug]

I have a few Firewire-only drives, but nowadays I only get drives that support both Firewire and USB 2. This is not only for wider compatibility, but also so that I can boot off them if necessary. The lack of USB 2 booting support on the MacBook Air is a real downer, considering it has no Firewire at all.

It also came in handy for my backup 3.5" drives when my iMac's Firewire port bit the dust.

The main problem with this is that the combo USB 2/Firewire drives cost significantly more. It's usually a $15-30 premium.

[fisherKing]

having several portable fw/usb drives (2 iomega, 1 lacie), and NOT being able to power them from the mb air is just sad...by time i add an ac adapter, the external superdrive...not worth it. the macbook is a much better option.

the air is an engineering marvel, but personally, i need a REAL computer.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by Connie 

So, the bottom line is none of the external hdd works under Macbook Air without extra AC?

Some external HDDs have been designed to run and run fine on USB spec power.
1.8" drives can always run off a single USB plug; they're smaller (100GB max), slower, and more expensive (per GB), but they work. There are 4200RPM 2.5" drives that can run off a single plug, and probably some 5400RPM drives too. Look for drives from reputable manufacturers who only include a single plug with the drive.

Originally Posted by Eug 

That's why powered Firewire is preferred for external drives. It's 12V x 1.25A, or 15 Watts.

Sometimes. There's no minimum requirement for FW power, so some Macs will give you 15W while others will give you 12W or 8W or 7W, and that power is shared among all FW ports on that Mac.

[OreoCookie]

@mduell
Every bus-powered FireWire harddrive has worked on any of my Macs so far whereas my experience with USB harddrives is the exact opposite: there were few drives that just worked.

[ctt1wbw]

Originally Posted by fisherKing 

having several portable fw/usb drives (2 iomega, 1 lacie), and NOT being able to power them from the mb air is just sad...by time i add an ac adapter, the external superdrive...not worth it. the macbook is a much better option.

the air is an engineering marvel, but personally, i need a REAL computer.

The playstation 3 is a REAL computer. It has an optical drive inside and you can play games on it.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

@mduell
Every bus-powered FireWire harddrive has worked on any of my Macs so far whereas my experience with USB harddrives is the exact opposite: there were few drives that just worked.

Even if mduell's statement is correct that powered Firewire can be as low as 7 W in the real world, that still would be fine, as that's still almost 3X the power of USB 2.

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

The playstation 3 is a REAL computer. It has an optical drive inside and you can play games on it.

[ctt1wbw]

Just poking fun at people who say the Air is not a real computer because it doesn't have an optical drive, and also making fun of people who say the Mac in general is not a real computer because you can't play games on it.

[amazing]

Seems to me there should be a forum sticky about how some people specifically should not get an MBA. For example, if you need a "real" laptop, or if you need firewire or have lots of external drives, or if you need to burn disks for clients while you're on the road, or if you wanna play games or you're loving lots of music and HD space, or if it's your main computer. Stuff like that. Not that people ever read forum stickies...

The MBA is aimed at a specific subset of laptop users, and it fills a void in Apple's lineup. But it isn't for everybody, although it is an incredibly attractive laptop. Just like the Buddha said, attachment leads to suffering, suffering leads to posting pointless forum-threads.

Meantime, I'm still enjoying my 12" PB.

[fisherKing]

my whole thing is, i'm ALSO still enjoying my 12" pb, just a problem that my main app won't work well on it!

still my favorite mac ever (well, the 2400c, my first mac, was amazing for it's day).

[iJeff]

Below is an interesting read:

Daring Fireball: The Appeal of the MacBook Air

[Love Calm Quiet]

As I feel required to do every week or two, just note that MBA is *still* atop the Apple Store's list of hardware best sellers.

So the question can't logically be "will it be a sales flop" but only... "how long will it continue to sell at such a pace?"

[analogika]

Originally Posted by iJeff 

Below is an interesting read:

Daring Fireball: The Appeal of the MacBook Air

Wrong approach.

It's not just a luxury toy like a sports coupé; there's actually a rather large market (business travellers) where it's an extremely sensible machine.

There's *also* a rather potent luxury toy market, though, that this thing appeals very nicely to. But the *real* market is bigger, methinks.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

The playstation 3 is a REAL computer. It has an optical drive inside and you can play games on it.

Yes, in a technical sense.

As much as, technically, you're a dummy.

-t

[ctt1wbw]

Gee thanks! That was called sarcasm.

[@pplejaxkz]

I definitely think the Macbook Air is a sleek looking notebook. But I too don't really care much about the "Worlds thinnest notebook" aspect. I currently have a C2D Macbook and so far it's the sleekest laptop I've owned. Also the Macbook Air doesn't really suit my needs right now, a little pricey for me too. I will probably keep my Macbook until I get a nice MacPro, then I might get a newer generation of the Macbook Air.

[icruise]

Originally Posted by fisherKing 

am a 12" powerbook user, and have been waiting for a 12" mbp forever (and waiting, and waiting).

I also decided not to get a MacBook Air. Like fisherKing, I am also a 12" PowerBook user and have been waiting for a smaller and lighter Mac laptop literally for years. So I watched the introduction of the MBA with great interest, and basically assumed that I would be getting one.

But in the end I decided to get a regular MacBook (bottom-of-the-line white model). Let me try and explain my reasoning. I prefer the weight and thinness of the MBA, and its metal casing. But in the end, those were the only advantages it had for me. The MacBook was $700 cheaper, could have more total memory, had the ability to use an extra battery, had a combo drive (and while I rarely use optical disks on my laptop, it occurred to me that I do like to be able to watch DVDs), and was faster than the MBA to boot.

I'm not bashing the MBA at all here, and I'd be lying if I said I wasn't still a little conflicted about my choice, but I just couldn't justify paying more for something that did less. I don't travel with my PowerBook much -- I normally just use it at cafes and the like, and just have to carry it very short distances. And the extra battery issue was the issue that ultimate made up my mind for me. Just today I had to change the battery in my PowerBook so I could finish up a job I was working on.

Anyway, the MacBook arrives tomorrow. My 12" PowerBook has served me well (and it's going to my wife to replace her ailing G3 iBook), but I'm looking forward to having a faster computer with a bigger and better screen. I considered a MacBook Pro, but I can't justify the price jump, especially since it's not going to be my primary computer -- I have an Intel iMac connected to a 23" Cinema Display, and the laptop is only for portable computing (or for use around the house, etc.)

[amazing]

I've owned both a PB 100 and a Duo. Both were bought at huge discount, after being discontinued. Both were great and totally appropriate to the niche in which they were used. They had a very, very useful life, and were retired. The duo is still in my closet, in honor of its past glory, along with a micro-dock and a duo-dock.

I can definitely see how appropriate and useful the MBA would be for those whose needs are met by its feature set. It's not overpriced, if anything it's somewhat of a good buy in the subnotebook market.

And if money were no object, I'd have one by now. If I win the lottery, I'll buy one tomorrow, plus one for everyone in the family.

In other words, it's not a good choice under present financial circumstances.

If you look behind the words of all the criticism dumped on the MBA, you can see the implicit recognition that the reviewers love it to bits, but can't afford it, or can't justify the purchase in some way or other, whether financial or feature-wise.

Hence the bitterness of the reviews. When you're upset with your inability to buy champagne on a coca-cola budget, you trash the champagne.

[JoshuaZ]

Originally Posted by Eug 

I have a few Firewire-only drives, but nowadays I only get drives that support both Firewire and USB 2. This is not only for wider compatibility, but also so that I can boot off them if necessary. The lack of USB 2 booting support on the MacBook Air is a real downer, considering it has no Firewire at all.

It also came in handy for my backup 3.5" drives when my iMac's Firewire port bit the dust.

The main problem with this is that the combo USB 2/Firewire drives cost significantly more. It's usually a $15-30 premium.

I recently bought a new external drive and was super annoyed that I couldn't find firewire anywhere in japan. Everything was USB 2.0 only (and super ugly and expensive). I ended up getting a USB 2.0, firewire 400 and 800 drive. I do love the speed and fun of firewire 800.

I find it extremely bad design to require someone to plus in TWO usb plus to power an external hard drive.

[icruise]

Originally Posted by amazing 

If you look behind the words of all the criticism dumped on the MBA, you can see the implicit recognition that the reviewers love it to bits, but can't afford it, or can't justify the purchase in some way or other, whether financial or feature-wise.

Hence the bitterness of the reviews. When you're upset with your inability to buy champagne on a coca-cola budget, you trash the champagne.

I think you're oversimplifying there. The problem is not that it's too expensive. The problem is that buying the MBA involves quite a few compromises in addition to the extra money that you're spending. I can afford the MBA (although the extra $700 is hardly chump change). But buying it would mean making some pretty important sacrifices (no firewire, no DVD drive, less RAM, and no swappable battery). That's hard to reconcile with the higher price, at least for me.

I do think that the MBA has a place in the market, and I think that its price isn't that out of line compared with similar products from other companies. But when I looked at it within Apple's own product lineup, it was very hard for me to come up with reasons that I personally should spend the extra money when the MacBook actually seemed to be a better fit. The thing is, I really wanted to like the MBA.

[Love Calm Quiet]

Face it: the big *practical* (not aesthetic) advantage of the MBA is the size/weight.

So it's suited for those folks with more money than shoulder muscles. I'd *love* to get one for wifey... she'd be so much more likely to put it in her book bag for travels (compared to her current 6-pount IceBook). She does not use firewire nor ethernet.

And... then there's the IMpractical benefits: It's a HUGE piece of jewelry to show off.

[mduell]

Well my MBAir is going back to the Apple Store this afternoon to be replaced. It has this rolling failure where after about 4-6 hours of use the USB Ethernet adapter will die, then Airport will die ~30 min later, then USB keyboard/mouse die, and finally internal keyboard/mouse (which is just another USB device) die too. AppleCare is calling it DOA and replacing with the same.

[mduell]

And things start to go downhill... they refused the exchange in store (talked to 3 managers... why do they have so many?) because the part number of my 1.6/HDD CTO upgrade to 1.8/SSD doesn't match the part number for the 1.8/SSD stock item. They admit it's the same hardware, but because it's a different number the exchange is not going to happen. I understand if this might cause some complication in their internal billing system that they have to deal with, but c'mon guys, this should not effect the customer.

So I call up AppleDoesntCare again, get the tier 1 rep after 5 minutes, rehash the short story with case number, 20 minute wait to be transfered to the group that handles exchanges, who says some other person has to contact me to send me the FedEx labels. They'll order a new one once FedEx scans the package, but with the store showing a 5-7 day wait that's like two weeks away.

I'm really disappointed I didn't walk out of the Apple Store this afternoon with one of their 1.8/SSD stock models.

[wataru]

I'm also not going to buy a MacBook Air. And I'm not going to buy a Porsche. And I'm certainly not going to buy an aircraft carrier. Or a pony.

Oh wait, you don't care what I'm not planning to buy?

(Hint: It works both ways.)

[fisherKing]

Originally Posted by wataru 

I'm also not going to buy a MacBook Air. And I'm not going to buy a Porsche. And I'm certainly not going to buy an aircraft carrier. Or a pony.

Oh wait, you don't care what I'm not planning to buy?

(Hint: It works both ways.)

i started a thread about the new macbook air, why i had hoped it would work for me, and why it didn't...

since this is a forum about macs (and mac notebooks specifically), seems the place for such a thread. not sure what a porsche or a pony has to do with anything...

[icruise]

Well, my new MacBook arrived yesterday and less than 24 hours later they announce new MacBook Pros and MacBooks. I'll have to admit that I was totally taken off guard by the MacBook upgrade. I was expecting the MBPs, but they just released the MacBooks not that long ago. After I got done swearing, I decided to return the new MacBook to Amazon, who thankfully has a good return policy for items like this. It should only cost me return shipping.

In the end, I decided to get a discounted previous model MacBook Pro instead. I didn't like the MacBook keyboard very much, so maybe it was best that I was pushed to return it.

[chrisutley]

Regarding the original topic, I'd suggest the OP take a close look at the MacBook. The 13" really isn't much bigger than the 12" PowerBook, and it's my opinion that the current MacBook is an amazing value in terms of price/performance. Probably one of the best values Apple has ever offered in a Mac - period. In terms of power - the MacBook is almost overkill if the PowerBook has served you this long.

Of course you could keep waiting for Apple to release your dream machine, but you could be waiting a very, very long time.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by icruise 

Well, my new MacBook arrived yesterday and less than 24 hours later they announce new MacBook Pros and MacBooks. I'll have to admit that I was totally taken off guard by the MacBook upgrade. I was expecting the MBPs, but they just released the MacBooks not that long ago. After I got done swearing, I decided to return the new MacBook to Amazon, who thankfully has a good return policy for items like this. It should only cost me return shipping.

Rumor is that Intel pushed Apple to adopt the new chips as part of their 45nm transition... Apple has been pretty slow adopting the last couple releases from Intel, but those stayed on the same process so it wasn't a huge deal for Intel to keep producing the older.