[turtle777]

The company I work for was acquired by another company. Of course, things change. For the worse.
Now they have migrated us from Outlook to Lotus Notes.

Oh WTF, this makes baby Jesus cry.

Not that Outlook is such a great email client and collaboration suite, but Lotus Notes ? What a piece of utter f****ing crap.

Ah, I'm so mad.

Time to look for a new job. This is ridiculous.

[/rant]

-t

[design219]

Dude, your entire job must focus around e-mail.

Yeah, I'd say time for a change.

[ctt1wbw]

People use Lotus anything these days?

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by design219 

Dude, your entire job must focus around e-mail.

Yeah, I'd say time for a change.

Pretty much so. With about 100 new emails each day, I need a well working tool.

Outlook was far from perfect, but in combination with Lookout and ClearContext, it was halfway useful.

Now, I'm definitely farked.

-t

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

People use Lotus anything these days?

Yeah, that's what I thought. The company is just too skimpy to pay the Outlook license fees. Of course, Lotus is cheaper. You get what you pay for.

-t

[MacosNerd]

Wow, quitting a job just because of the email client - seems kind of extreme. I wonder if they replace the browser what you'll do then

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

Wow, quitting a job just because of the email client - seems kind of extreme. I wonder if they replace the browser what you'll do then

Nah, it's not only email. This is just symptomatic of a pathetic organization. Stuff has become really bad in the past months. I hoped it would get better, but hope is all there was...

-t

[Eug]

IBM uses Lotus notes internally. People I know there actually like it. Or at least, they don't hate Lotus Notes, and they don't particularly like Outlook.

But that's probably because they're used to it.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Eug 

IBM uses Lotus notes internally. People I know there actually like it. Or at least, they don't hate Lotus Notes, and they don't particularly like Outlook.

But that's probably because they're used to it.

Example: Calendar entry - you want to clarify something.
You click on "Reply with memo" (Lotus lingo for email).
A new email opens, where you can type a comment.

Now I decided I wanted to add a recipient to that memo. You CAN'T.
Ok, fine, I thought, just close it and start a new memo.

Ha, YOU CAN'T. The only options to continue with this memo from calendar entry is

a) Send w/o comment
b) Send with comment

YOU effing can't just NOT send it.

If I run into this kind of crap after 30 mins of using Notes, I'm sure more crap is underneath the hood. It's an absolute nightmare.

-t

[MacosNerd]

My mother works for IDG and they use Lotus Notes. I was surprised when she started there about 8 years ago to see that they were using notes, and now its just as surprising to continue to see it.

Working in IT, I can definitely see why they don't move off of it. Sometimes its more cost effective to stick with a product that still works albeit not as efficiently as other, then to switch to another platform.

[Chuckit]

I kind of doubt IT has actually quantified how much it costs the workers to stick with Lotus for several more decades. They're probably just like, "Hey, easier for us!" That's judging by the places I know that use Lotus Notes.

[turtle777]

Response time creating new folder: 30 sec.
No button make emails unread - you have to go through nested menu entries.
You can't display unread emails in bold and black, it's always regular and RED !

WTF ?

-t

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

I kind of doubt IT has actually quantified how much it costs to stick with Lotus for several more decades. They're probably just like, "Hey, easier for us!" That's judging by the places I know that use Lotus Notes.

Actually the IT departments I have worked in, regularly do such quantification on costs. It would be very short sighted of them not too, or have an attitude of "Hey, easier for us!" I've been involved in a number of such plans and in some cases the move was made to switch to a new product and some cases the decision to stick with the existing solution was made.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

Actually the IT departments I have worked in, regularly do such quantification on costs. It would be very short sighted of them not too, or have an attitude of "Hey, easier for us!" I've been involved in a number of such plans and in some cases the move was made to switch to a new product and some cases the decision to stick with the existing solution was made.

In my companies case, they DID a financial assessment.

They decided for Lotus Notes because it would save them a couple of million per year.
For a company with almost $ 40B in Sales, that's a joke.

But apparently, worth putting up with reduced productivity.

-t

[Gankdawg]

I had to use it at a company I worked for.......I hated it. And the people who said "Send me a Note" drove me crazy.

[analogika]

My last job had calendaring and email based around lotus Notes.

What. A. ****ing. Nightmare.

To the naysayers: If you're stuck with Lotus Notes for interoffice communication and planning, then yes, your job actually BECOMES centered around e-mail to a certain extent - no joke.

You waste so much frigging time on crap that has been efficiently and gracefully solved for a DECADE now, with (as mentioned) nested menus, awkward shifting buttons and obtuse application structuring not exactly aiding workflow.

[Paco500]

There are still some companies, including quite a few govt agencies, that stick with notes for security reasons. It's got exchange beat hands down in that regard. A lot of the enhanced security features actually make it more difficult and expensive to support.

[turtle777]

Just for those who never used Notes:

Think of how much better OS X 10.5 is over Windows 95
Thats about how much better Outlook is over Lotus Notes.

LN is absolutely archaic. The UI and UI guidelines must have been put together by a blind, retarded monkey. It goes against all common sense and standard conventions in interface design and usability.
At least, in Outlook there are always multiple ways of getting to do things, like right-click (context menu), menus commands, toolbar and keyboard shortcuts.

In LN, there is only ONE, maybe two ways to do it. If you can't find it, you're toast. It might be hidden in some obscure menu path that you'll never find.

I'm ready to shot myself. It's THAT bad.

-t

[analogika]

^ That is NOT an exaggeration (except for the shooting bit - that passes). Seriously.

I had to use it for a couple of years.

[Laminar]

I use LN at my job. Yes, it blows. It often won't tell me if I've received a new email and I have to manually refresh my inbox to see them. The calendar sharing functions suck. While you can "preview" new emails (view them in a section of the window under your inbox, just like Mail.app), the message isn't "read" until you open it in a separate window. The address lookup sucks, too. It's...well...awful. I remember the IT department saying something about how they were proud to be Microsoft-free. Well, except for every computer in the office running Windows XP or 2000 and Office 97.

[turtle777]

I'm so bumped, if I didn't have an interview tomorrow, I'd get seriously drunk tonight

The potential new job just become even more attractive - they're using Outlook.
I never thought I'd favor a job based on the email client they're using. Well, I learned my lesson.

-t

[besson3c]

It's too bad that groupware is locked up by proprietary vendors. If this platform supported an open standard like IMAP, it would provide plenty of client alternatives for Turtle to use rather than whatever Lotus provides.

We have an open calendar standard now, IMAP, and OpenLDAP... I hope we start to see some better groupware options in the not too distant future.

[Chuckit]

You think the existence of open standards will lead IT departments to take a laissez-faire approach to employees' computer setups?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

You think the existence of open standards will lead IT departments to take a laissez-faire approach to employees' computer setups?

Maybe over time. Right now, nobody wants to compete with Microsoft or Lotus as a commercial vendor, and open source developers are probably wondering whether it would be worth their while working on something to compete with these products considering how deeply entrenched these products are in corporate culture.

However, if we started to see a growing collection of viable, strong options, maybe this would chip away at the Exchange monopoly. One interesting way of doing this is breaking Exchange down into smaller pieces, and instead of developing a big monolithic thing, just support new standardized protocols that will allow developers to extend upon existing email clients. For instance, the Mozilla Lightening/Sunbird approach is rather interesting, as is Apple's iCal/OS X Mail.

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

You think the existence of open standards will lead IT departments to take a laissez-faire approach to employees' computer setups?

I don't think that will ever happen because the IT department is generally responsible to keeping the computers up to date and running. For instance, my company does not want anyone to use IE7 because it could (and has) caused compatibility issues with applications. All of sudden we're getting support tickets because a given applications suddenly stopped working, we then find out the person installed IE7 and that broke the application.

Work environments for medium to large companies are much too complex to have the IT department take a hands off approach especially if its up to them to handle the problems that arise.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

I don't think that will ever happen because the IT department is generally responsible to keeping the computers up to date and running. For instance, my company does not want anyone to use IE7 because it could (and has) caused compatibility issues with applications. All of sudden we're getting support tickets because a given applications suddenly stopped working, we then find out the person installed IE7 and that broke the application.

Work environments for medium to large companies are much too complex to have the IT department take a hands off approach especially if its up to them to handle the problems that arise.

That would mean standardizing on Windows then, Office, etc. The whole point of having alternatives is to stimulate competition, which may result in companies choosing not to standardize on dumb, inferior products.

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

That would mean standardizing on Windows then, Office, etc. The whole point of having alternatives is to stimulate competition, which may result in companies choosing not to standardize on dumb, inferior products.

Exactly and most companies have done just that. It makes too much business and financial sense not to have a standard build computer that the user will be operating on.

alternative solutions doesn't mean you need to have both products on your computer or on your network. Competition is for the marketplace not internally on a company network

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

Exactly and most companies have done just that. It makes too much business and financial sense not to have a standard build computer that the user will be operating on.

You're missing my point.

I'm not disagreeing with this, I'm saying that competition is important so that companies don't have to standardize on dumb, inferior products. The fact that many standardize on these products is often because they are virtually a foregone conclusion with no real competition to consider. The net gains are less support resources, but an inferior product. With competition, the potential exists to standardize on a better product.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Maybe over time. Right now, nobody wants to compete with Microsoft or Lotus as a commercial vendor, and open source developers are probably wondering whether it would be worth their while working on something to compete with these products considering how deeply entrenched these products are in corporate culture.

Lotus as a commercial vendor ?

This piece of sh!t is worse than the worst, buggy and neglected open source product.
Even if Notes was free, I still think only stupid companies would give up Outlook for it.

Oh man, I'm SO MAD right now

-t

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

You're missing my point.

You're right I did.

To a degree you are correct but for some applications the competition is over, like office applications. While there are open source alternatives. Most companies will take the tried and true because its a known commodity. They can accurately gauge the support costs and know about any problems that could arise. Retraining the staff is another point to consider. Finally how much better can you improve applications like the office applications and does that out way the issues I just delineated. Generally the answer is no. For more enterprise applications there is still competition be even that is shrinking. i.e., take a look at how Oracle has been buying up companies.

[Shaddim]

I know a rather large company ($5B /yr) that switched all their email to gmail, no joke.

[turtle777]

Well, looking at the Lotus Notes disaster, I wouldn't mind if Outlook became a monopoly and the only available groupware platform for corporate communications.

Obviously, the existence of a utterly mediocre competitor (LN) does not help with making Outlook better.
Outlook is what it is. At least, it works, its use is halfway reasonable and the feature set is ok.

IBM should be charged with crimes against humanity.

-t

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

I know a rather large company ($5B /yr) that switched all their email to gmail, no joke.

I believe it. I don't understand why any company would pay for crap like LN.
If you want cheap, you might as well go GMail. At least the UI is up-to-date.

-t

[ctt1wbw]

Originally Posted by Gankdawg 

I had to use it at a company I worked for.......I hated it. And the people who said "Send me a Note" drove me crazy.

How about people that call you on the telephone to ask if you got their email?

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

How about people that call you on the telephone to ask if you got their email?

Oh I have that beat. One of the companies I used to work would routinely send out an email stating that the email system is down. Seriously, when the system came back up, I saw the email sitting there. Kind of crazy

[turtle777]

The basic problem with LN is the following:

• It is basically a semi-DBMS (database) system which uses forms (data entry screens) to enter data and view it. Data is stored as records (documents to be precise). [It is] something like MS Access, [but] actually worse, as the data is stored as free form unstructured documents unlike a true DBMS.
• These documents are stored in a so-called database, which is size limited (that is, you can have a very limited number of documents per database) for a supposedly enterprise tool.
• E-mail is an application (I would call it a hack) built on top of one such a database.

Lotus Notes Sucks: Example 58



-t

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

You're right I did.

To a degree you are correct but for some applications the competition is over, like office applications. While there are open source alternatives. Most companies will take the tried and true because its a known commodity. They can accurately gauge the support costs and know about any problems that could arise. Retraining the staff is another point to consider. Finally how much better can you improve applications like the office applications and does that out way the issues I just delineated. Generally the answer is no. For more enterprise applications there is still competition be even that is shrinking. i.e., take a look at how Oracle has been buying up companies.

The second businesses think they can replace businesses with a free alternative, they will either switch, or let the old system/workflow die by attrition. You can't compete with free, and every business is looking to save money.

Saving money may not be enough incentive in every and all circumstance, but it is obviously an important factor that may be the tipping point for some.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

I know a rather large company ($5B /yr) that switched all their email to gmail, no joke.

We are doing this where I work, as well as to Microsoft Exchange Labs. This is a very bad idea in terms of control of data and accountability - two things you obviously give up entirely.

[peeb]

I've worked in companies where employees were largely responsible for their own productivity and could opt out of IT support and go their own way if they wanted (within certain minimum requirements). Companies focussing on creatives or consulting can do this pretty easily.

[ctt1wbw]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

Oh I have that beat. One of the companies I used to work would routinely send out an email stating that the email system is down. Seriously, when the system came back up, I saw the email sitting there. Kind of crazy

Yeah, that is exactly what the NMCI, the Navy and Marine Corps Intranet, does. They'll send out en email telling you something like that. Or if you call they 800 tech support number, they'll ask for an email... the email server, or Outlook, or whatever, is down...

[angelmb]

I know this is not going to make you any happier but at least 'maybe' you could laugh @ this… the thread title suggested me it was related to an old e-mail account you haven't used for years, that kind of stuff… so I got a snapshot from one of such an e-mail accounts, it is just a 3MB inbox one and I have to delete something like 20 spam e-mails everyday

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

The second businesses think they can replace businesses with a free alternative, they will either switch, or let the old system/workflow die by attrition. You can't compete with free

That's why most desktop users are on Gentoo by now, right?

[analogika]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

The basic problem with LN is the following:

• It is basically a semi-DBMS (database) system which uses forms (data entry screens) to enter data and view it. Data is stored as records (documents to be precise). [It is] something like MS Access, [but] actually worse, as the data is stored as free form unstructured documents unlike a true DBMS.
• These documents are stored in a so-called database, which is size limited (that is, you can have a very limited number of documents per database) for a supposedly enterprise tool.
• E-mail is an application (I would call it a hack) built on top of one such a database.

Lotus Notes Sucks: Example 58



-t

Oh wow, thanks for that link. That brought me way back to my last job.

I suddenly remembered my favorite ever Lotus Notes dialog box, which read, I kid you not: "Would you like document? Yes / No / Cancel" ("Möchten Sie Dokument? Ja / Nein / Abbrechen").

I appear to have deleted the screenshot I made.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

That's why most desktop users are on Gentoo by now, right?

My caveat was when the switch becomes viable. If Gentoo allowed people to run their apps with no real downside, you'd bet that more companies would switch to it in larger numbers.

[Dakar the Fourth]

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

Ahhh.. the things you miss out on with an ad block!

[turtle777]

People say Lotus Notes might be the worst app evar.

Survival of the unfittest | Technology | The Guardian

While I want to be careful with superlatives like "worst evar", in the case of LN, I have to agree.

F***ing #^%*&$# SH*T

-t

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Ahhh.. the things you miss out on with an ad block!

That's not an ad, genius, that's the site's banner.

[- - e r i k - -]

I'm surprised to hear so much praise heaped on Outlook from a guy who writes Microsoft with a dollar sign.

[MacosNerd]

Oh the irony, I forgot about that thread