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Turbulence in the Muslim world(Lebanon, Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen, Jordan) (Page 3)
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Originally Posted by BadKosh
You haven't noticed the rise of Muslim extremism, and how quiet the moderates (if there are any) are.
Moderates are, pretty much by definition, quiet.
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Originally Posted by Wiskedjak
Moderates are, pretty much by definition, quiet.
There you go again, pointing out the obvious.
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Originally Posted by OldManMac
There are lots of things that the rage at any given moment; do you simply jump on board, just because it's "in"?
I don't have a bomb shelter.
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Originally Posted by OldManMac
A few thousand (actually there are only about 50 Al-Queda in Afghanistan), are going to take over the most powerful military, and country, in the world. You just don't get it. You've scared yourself to death, and you're not even dead yet.
When I came home from school, as a young child, having recently emigrated from Germany, my parents and I would constantly be amused, and amazed, at the bomb shelters that our neighbors were building, because of the Communists coming to drop nuclear bombs. We couldn't get anyone to understand that it wasn't going to happen, and today the same irrational paranoia is happening all over again, because of people like you, who turn your emotion (or, more accurately, the emotional propaganda you've been conditioned to accept as "fact,") into your own version of the facts.
You also no doubt believe that the approximately 15% of the country that is non-religious is working to take over your religious institutions and force you to become an atheist, or that the few percentage points of the country that LBGT, are going to convert your children to homosexuals. You poor, persecuted, soul.
Sad
FIFTY?????? So you counted them? Who's lies are you repeating now? Maddow? Matthews/ Obama? LOL
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any unbiased, non-cool aid drinking mouth pieces of the Obama admin? ABC, CBS, Reuters, ".org"
Don't you think that there is more than just one terrorist group? You are either blind or a typical liberal media stooge.
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Originally Posted by BadKosh
any unbiased, non-cool aid drinking mouth pieces of the Obama admin? ABC, CBS, Reuters, ".org"
Don't you think that there is more than just one terrorist group? You are either blind or a typical liberal media stooge.
I believe stupendousman refers to this as "Attacking the messenger fallacy"
http://forums.macnn.com/95/political...e/#post4044677
But, in any case, does FoxNews count as a "non-cool aid drinking mouth piece of the Obama admin"? It's in OldManMac's list of articles, if you would have bothered to even glance at the list rather than jump straight to the (ironic) "blind or a typical liberal media stooge" attack.
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Last edited by Wiskedjak; Feb 11, 2011 at 09:39 AM.
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Originally Posted by BadKosh
any unbiased, non-cool aid drinking mouth pieces of the Obama admin? ABC, CBS, Reuters, ".org"
Don't you think that there is more than just one terrorist group? You are either blind or a typical liberal media stooge.
This fits you to a T. Denial is a very powerful emotion.
Standing Up To Glenn Beck | Mother Jones
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Well, Mubarak's out. Woohoo!
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Originally Posted by OldManMac
Yoiu still believe any BS you want. Another country therown into chaos by muslim extremists pretending to be democratic. Do you even pay attention to world events, or do you just believe the leftist BS...like our idiot president seems to have done? You keep trying to relate to everything as stereotypes.
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Originally Posted by Wiskedjak
I believe stupendousman refers to this as "Attacking the messenger fallacy"
http://forums.macnn.com/95/political...e/#post4044677
But, in any case, does FoxNews count as a "non-cool aid drinking mouth piece of the Obama admin"? It's in OldManMac's list of articles, if you would have bothered to even glance at the list rather than jump straight to the (ironic) "blind or a typical liberal media stooge" attack.
Did YOU read my full response? You also don't think any other muslim terrorist groups are operating there? LOL!! Talk about being an IDIOT!!!
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Originally Posted by BadKosh
Did YOU read my full response? You also don't think any other muslim terrorist groups are operating there? LOL!! Talk about being an IDIOT!!!
So, in your opinion, FoxNews is a biased, cool aid drinking mouth piece of the Obama admin?
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If you're using any US-based source for news on the Middle East, you've blown it.
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Yeah, the BBC seems to be the best source.
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Originally Posted by BadKosh
Yoiu still believe any BS you want. Another country therown into chaos by muslim extremists pretending to be democratic. Do you even pay attention to world events, or do you just believe the leftist BS...like our idiot president seems to have done? You keep trying to relate to everything as stereotypes.
The country was thrown into chaos by the people, who are demanding a greater say in what's going on. Mubarak was a dictator, and it would have happened soon enough anyway; it has nothing to do with Muslim extremists. You're the one who believes in monsters under your bed, and stereotypes of every Muslim as an extremist.
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Originally Posted by BadKosh
Yoiu still believe any BS you want. Another country therown into chaos by muslim extremists pretending to be democratic. Do you even pay attention to world events, or do you just believe the leftist BS...like our idiot president seems to have done? You keep trying to relate to everything as stereotypes.
Oh, you're one of the folks who thinks Muslim Brotherhood is an extremist organization, huh? Despite the fact that the Brotherhood condemns violence, takes an active stance against terrorism, and is a movement rather than an organization or distinct political party. You may remember that people who follow along with Brotherhood ideals won 20% of Egypt's parliamentary seats in 2005 and were thrown out and mostly killed by Mubarak. So you'll excuse me if I don't mind them having a voice this time around, especially since they seem to actively have chosen against turning violent against Mubarak even when they had every reason to.
A lot of people seem to think that true Muslims think that the government should be some theological institution, when in fact 99% of Muslims would much rather have a secular government that gives equal rights to all religions. A one-sided government is a double edged sword, and all Muslims know this through practical experience.
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Last edited by imitchellg5; Feb 11, 2011 at 04:01 PM.
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I think I'm going to be a modern day Paul Revere, and get a horse, and ride around proclaiming, "The Muslims are coming, the Muslims are coming."
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Originally Posted by The Final Dakar
Well, Mubarak's out. Woohoo!
This is a great day. And all the Muslim haters are foaming at the mouths.
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Originally Posted by The Final Dakar
Well, Mubarak's out. Woohoo!
As some of you might know, i just finished watching John Adams. A provisional/alternative government to replace the old was essential in maintaining stability after the revolution.
I fear chaos in Egypt, in the absence of a coherent opposition. And right now, the most coherent political force is the Muslim Brotherhood, which is deeply entrenched in the society there. You can guess what that would mean to peace and stability in the region, including implication on a "democracy".
There's probably going to be a power vacuum now that Mubarak has stepped down. I wonder who's going to fill it.
I'm kind of pessimistic now.
Hope for the best... prepare for the worst, i reckon.
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Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a
And right now, the most coherent political force is the Muslim Brotherhood, which is deeply entrenched in the society there. You can guess what that would mean to peace and stability in the region, including implication on a "democracy".
You mean like the peace and stability enjoyed by Turkey?
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I wonder if Lucas based the idea of Emperor Palpatine on Mubarak.
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Originally Posted by olePigeon
I wonder if Lucas based the idea of Emperor Palpatine on Mubarak.
Considering Mubarak came into power in 1981 and Empire Strikes Back featuring Palpatine came out in 1980, prolly not
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Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a
As some of you might know, i just finished watching John Adams. A provisional/alternative government to replace the old was essential in maintaining stability after the revolution.
You mean like the provisional government that Egypt has right now?
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Originally Posted by Wiskedjak
You mean like the peace and stability enjoyed by Turkey?
There you go again, bringing facts to the discussion.
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Originally Posted by OldManMac
There you go again, bringing facts to the discussion.
ya ... bad habit.
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Originally Posted by imitchellg5
Considering Mubarak came into power in 1981 and Empire Strikes Back featuring Palpatine came out in 1980, prolly not
The Emperor is referenced in the first movie, not to mention the script was written back in the 1970s. Not to mention Episodes I through III could have easily referenced Mubarak.
The Emperor and Mubarak share a similar political history in terms of how they stayed in office. Got elected, enacted "temporary" emergency powers, then stayed in office indefinitely.
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Originally Posted by olePigeon
The Emperor is referenced in the first movie, not to mention the script was written back in the 1970s. Not to mention Episodes I through III could have easily referenced Mubarak.
The Emperor and Mubarak share a similar political history in terms of how they stayed in office. Got elected, enacted "temporary" emergency powers, then stayed in office indefinitely.
Yes, but which outside power propped up the Emperor in order to prevent the emergence of leader not favorable to that outside power but representing the will of the people?
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Originally Posted by olePigeon
The Emperor and Mubarak share a similar political history in terms of how they stayed in office. Got elected, enacted "temporary" emergency powers, then stayed in office indefinitely.
Palpatine and Mubarak are hardly the first/earliest/only examples of this MO. Germany in the 1930s, Russia in the 1920s (where one "emergency powers" regime managed to be deposed by another that enacted its own emergency powers-though neither was actually "elected"), and so on. There are probably a number of other examples from areas where my education was skimpy (Africa, for example, didn't get much coverage in my world history courses).
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11/11/11 News Flash!
Population explosion in Egypt!
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Originally Posted by ghporter
Palpatine and Mubarak are hardly the first/earliest/only examples of this MO. Germany in the 1930s, Russia in the 1920s (where one "emergency powers" regime managed to be deposed by another that enacted its own emergency powers-though neither was actually "elected"), and so on. There are probably a number of other examples from areas where my education was skimpy (Africa, for example, didn't get much coverage in my world history courses).
It's happened in America too. FDR passed some pretty radical bills that gave him a lot more power than any President before had ever had.
Edit: I mean radical as in crazy, not radical as in mentalist.
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Originally Posted by imitchellg5
It's happened in America too. FDR passed some pretty radical bills that gave him a lot more power than any President before had ever had.
Edit: I mean radical as in crazy, not radical as in mentalist.
Precision is important: "Congress passed and FDR signed" some pretty radical bills. Roosevelt wasn't alone in trying to get the economy going by whatever means could be devised. The courts did their job and reined in Congressional and presidential efforts to conform with (the courts' interpretation of) the Constitution.
This was hardly similar to getting oneself into office then pushing through some sort of emergency "I am now all powerful" measure. See above mention of Germany in the 1930s... Emergency acts during the Depression got people to work, but did not put FDR in power for longer. The People did that, electing him (with good margins) FOUR times.
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Originally Posted by BadKosh
Yoiu still believe any BS you want. Another country therown into chaos by muslim extremists pretending to be democratic. Do you even pay attention to world events, or do you just believe the leftist BS...like our idiot president seems to have done? You keep trying to relate to everything as stereotypes.
Here's someone else who knows vastly more about this than you. BTW, one of the references I posted above, relating to the number of Al Queda in Afghanistan, was from Fox News, which is no doubt one of your favorites, as they're very good at spoon feeding the stupid.
My Take: Revolution 2.0 more secular than Islamic – CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs
From the article; "Anyone who pretends to know where this revolution will lead is as deluded [my emphasis] as Mubarak seemed to be when he refused to stand down in his Thursday speech."
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Originally Posted by Wiskedjak
Yes, but which outside power propped up the Emperor in order to prevent the emergence of leader not favorable to that outside power but representing the will of the people?
The Trade Federation, which we learn later was double-crossed in order to create the clone army and ultimately kill the Jedi. Typical children's stories.
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Originally Posted by OldManMac
The country was thrown into chaos by the people, who are demanding a greater say in what's going on. Mubarak was a dictator, and it would have happened soon enough anyway; it has nothing to do with Muslim extremists. You're the one who believes in monsters under your bed, and stereotypes of every Muslim as an extremist.
You don't KNOW anything. You are hearing BS from news sources who are also making much of their news up. you weren't there.
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Originally Posted by OldManMac
Here's someone else who knows vastly more about this than you. BTW, one of the references I posted above, relating to the number of Al Queda in Afghanistan, was from Fox News, which is no doubt one of your favorites, as they're very good at spoon feeding the stupid.
My Take: Revolution 2.0 more secular than Islamic – CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs
From the article; "Anyone who pretends to know where this revolution will lead is as deluded [my emphasis] as Mubarak seemed to be when he refused to stand down in his Thursday speech."
CNN? Again with opinions stated as news? You seem to think you actually know what deals were made and who was really behind the protests. Time will tell.
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Originally Posted by BadKosh
CNN? Again with opinions stated as news? You seem to think you actually know what deals were made and who was really behind the protests. Time will tell.
And, where is your news-not-opinion that the ousting of the Egyptian dictator was a move by "muslim extremists pretending to be democratic".
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Originally Posted by BadKosh
CNN? Again with opinions stated as news? You seem to think you actually know what deals were made and who was really behind the protests. Time will tell.
Changing your tune, now. You've been blathering on about how the Muslim Brotherhood, and all those nasty Muslims, will be coming for you soon; now it's "time will tell". Time will tell, but I'm sure I'll be vindicated. I've been around almost 64 years, and I can remember lots of ridiculous panicking over supposed outside influences working to destroy the United States, with gullible fools spouting nonsense. This too will pass.
Besides, we're doing a bang up job of destroying ourselves from within.
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Maybe BadKosh is just confused because he thinks Egypt is situated between Syria and Iran?
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Originally Posted by BadKosh
You don't KNOW anything.
Ironyyyyyyyyyy!
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Originally Posted by BadKosh
You don't KNOW anything. You are hearing BS from news sources who are also making much of their news up. you weren't there.
So you know more than Al Jazeera journalists who live and work in Egypt and were on the streets during the protests and the Egyptians who were interviewed by multiple news sources?
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Originally Posted by imitchellg5
So you know more than Al Jazeera journalists who live and work in Egypt and were on the streets during the protests and the Egyptians who were interviewed by multiple news sources?
They're clearly biased and in the employ of the Muslim Brotherhood.
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Originally Posted by imitchellg5
Amongst all the snark and smarm of others, this is the relevant point and one that might assuage some of the more pervasive concerns. The military has the general trust of the populace and can help facilitate a peaceful transfer of powers. Otherwise, the powers would generally be granted to those most organized among the populace which include groups like the Muslim Brotherhood. To say they are "peaceful" or "violent" is to miss the point of any group so large. It is said that the MB will be the king-maker in Egypt, but I remain cautiously optimistic that this change will bring about leadership that represents the will of the people. A people who through 18 days of generally peaceful protesting have changed the hands of power in their country. If barbarism were in their blood, the numbers of those who took to the streets in protest would surely have involved more violence, but... it didn't. I've never thought this region was incapable of democracy unlike the Iraq naysayers and those remarkably silent during Iranian protests.
We'll see who shakes out to the top and how interested they are in progress, peace, and prosperity or the tired, violent ideals of yesteryear that have gotten them nowhere.
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Originally Posted by ebuddy
I've never thought this region was incapable of democracy unlike the Iraq naysayers and those remarkably silent during Iranian protests.
Many of us Iraq naysayers weren't saying that the region was incapable of democracy. We were saying that it couldn't be forced upon the people in the region (as in Iraq) and that, for democracy to be successful, the people must demand it for themselves (as appears to be the case in Egypt).
Contrary to your point, I find it interesting that many of the people who supported an outside establishment of democracy in Iraq are now uneasy about the Egyptians demanding democracy for themselves.
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Even been to the "Muslim Brotherhood" web site?? Sure they sound like Muslims. Jihad...... sure... peaceful.
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Originally Posted by Wiskedjak
Many of us Iraq naysayers weren't saying that the region was incapable of democracy. We were saying that it couldn't be forced upon the people in the region (as in Iraq) and that, for democracy to be successful, the people must demand it for themselves (as appears to be the case in Egypt).
Indeed.
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak
Contrary to your point, I find it interesting that many of the people who supported an outside establishment of democracy in Iraq are now uneasy about the Egyptians demanding democracy for themselves.
Well that's because when democracy is imposed by the US government it's in a much better position to control the outcome. Whereas true democracy that has its origins in the people at a grassroots level may not result in an outcome that is "palatable" to US corporate government interests.
OAW
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Originally Posted by BadKosh
Even been to the "Muslim Brotherhood" web site?? Sure they sound like Muslims. Jihad...... sure... peaceful.
I'll completely overlook your statement of "sure they sound like Muslims" for now. Copied and pasted from their website, their standards for government:
15 Principles for Agreement
the following 15 principles can be considered a compendium for the democratic principles which we call for. We have declared these principles in public and invited all the political parties and powers in Egypt to support them as a "National Charter". Also, it was included in my political program for the general elections which took place in Nov., 1995.
First: To confirm unequivocally that people are the source of all power so that it is not permissible for anyone individual, party, group, or institution to claim the right to authority, or to continue in power except with the consent of the people.
Second: Total commitment to, and the respect of, the principle of power exchange through free and fair general elections.
Third: To confirm the freedom of personal conviction (religious conviction).
Fourth: To confirm the freedom of establishing religious rites for all the known heavenly religions.
Fifth: To confirm the freedom of opinion and the right to publicize it, and to call, peacefully, to it, within the limitations of the moral values of society that are detailed in the first section of the constitution. An important consideration in ensuring the above is the freedom of owning and using the different mass media outlets (television, radio, video tapes and equipment, fax machines, newspapers, magazines, books and newsletters).
Sixth: To confirm the right of forming political parties and that no administrative body should have right of restricting or stopping the application of this right. An independent judicial authority should be the only source in confirming what falls outside the ideals and standards of society, or that which can be thought of as a rejection of peaceful political participation.
Seventh: To confirm the right to public gatherings, the invitation to them, and participation in them, all within the limitations of public of public safety, so long as the usage of violence or arms or the threat of doing so is not included.
Eighth: to confirm the right of peaceful demonstrations.
Ninth: To confirm the importance of representing the people through a parliamentary council elected through a free and fair elections, and for a limited period, after which elections are held again.
Tenth: The right of every citizen (man or woman) to take part in parliamentary elections.
Eleventh: The right of every citizen to become a member of parliament through elections.
Twelfth: Ensuring the independence of the judicial system at all levels while taking all the necessary steps and laying down all the conditions to ensure that it is safe from any source fear or manipulation, and that no one is to be tried except by a qualified judge. That all exceptional courts are cancelled, and jurisdiction of the military courts are restricted to cases involving military crimes and violations only.
Thirteenth: separation between the prosecution and investigation authorities, and that the public defense authority should be independent from the minister of justice. Furthermore, whoever it (public defense authority) condemns to imprisonment should the right of appeal to a judicial authority against that decision.
Fourteenth: The army must stay clear of politics, concentrating only on protecting the country"s external security, and that it should not be used, neither directly nor indirectly, by the governing authority in enforcing its wishes and control, or in prohibiting the people"s rights.
Fifteenth: The police and all other security services must protect the security of the nation and as a whole, and that its utilization in maintaining the government or as a means of crushing opposition opinion should be prohibited. A system overlooks its work and leadership, and ensures the above, should be imposed; more specifically, it (security forces) must not be allowed to intervene in political activities and general elections.
Sure sounds like an oppressive group to me!
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Posting Junkie
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Cape Cod, MA
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I still wonder why any of you bother replying to B4dK0$h with any seriousness. He's here to spout quick, uneducated one-liners and never defend any position past a few minutes.
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Posting Junkie
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: midwest
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Originally Posted by Wiskedjak
Many of us Iraq naysayers weren't saying that the region was incapable of democracy. We were saying that it couldn't be forced upon the people in the region (as in Iraq) and that, for democracy to be successful, the people must demand it for themselves (as appears to be the case in Egypt).
You mean... a few hundred thousand men took to the streets and they are speaking for over 82 million men, women, and children. Of course any system of governance can be forced upon a people just as tyranny was, this is exactly what just happened. They've witnessed that even fledgling and feeble examples of democracy around them provide better opportunity than their present conditions afford them.
Contrary to your point, I find it interesting that many of the people who supported an outside establishment of democracy in Iraq are now uneasy about the Egyptians demanding democracy for themselves.
Egyptians want their piece of the pie and likely have for many, many years. In this condition, the most organized win. The most organized in Egypt (MB) carry with them interests and risks of their own. I don't find the sudden resolve of protesters very surprising or coincidental and I remain cautiously optimistic that this will be an upgrade as was the case in Iraq. IMO, it is right to be uneasy about such a massive movement bolstered by an element void of everything other than angst-laden, male youth.
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ebuddy
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Professional Poster
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Just west of DC.
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Originally Posted by sek929
I still wonder why any of you bother replying to B4dK0$h with any seriousness. He's here to spout quick, uneducated one-liners and never defend any position past a few minutes.
You sound like a typical German at the start of WWII.
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Professional Poster
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Just west of DC.
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Peaceful?
Slogan of the Muslim Brotherhood:
Allah is our objective.
The Prophet is our leader.
Quran is our law.
Jihad is our way.
Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope.
* The Brotherhood is widely believed to have had a "secret apparatus" responsible for attacks in Egypt, including the assassination of Mahmoud an-Nukrashi Pasha, the Egyptian Prime Minister in 1948[97] and the president of Egypt in 1981[98]
* Rachel Aspden's article, The Rise of the Brotherhood states that The Muslim Brotherhood currently advocates suicide bombing attacks on civilians to fight Zionism, and its self-admitted Palestinian wing Hamas indiscriminately targets Jews as such, both civilians and the military, in Israel.[99] In its Charter, Hamas cites The Protocols of the Elders of Zion and prophesizes the ultimate complete annihilation of Jewry.[100]
* Newsweek journalists Mark Hosenball and Michael Isikoff reported connections between al-Qaeda and Brotherhood figures Mamoun Darkazanli and Youssef Nada.[101]
* A similar article in the Financial Times reported financial links between 74-year-old Swiss Muslim convert, and businessman Ahmed Huber, and members of the Muslim Brotherhood, notably Youssef Nada, Ali Ghaleb Himmat. According to the U.S. government, Al Taqwa "has long acted as financial advisers to al-Qaeda." Huber is noted in Europe for his links with alleged neo-Nazi and other far right elements.[102][103] He is reported to have "confirmed" having "had contact with associates of Osama bin Laden at an Islamic conference in Beirut," whom he called `very discreet, well-educated, very intelligent people.`[102]
* Abdul Rahman al-Amoudi was an influential lobbyist and founder and head of the Brotherhood-linked American Muslim Council before being convicted and sentenced to 23 years in prison for conspiracy to murder Saudi Prince Abdullah at the behest of Libyan leader Muammar al-Gaddafi.[104]
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