[NewsPoster]

Apple is "hard at work" on a new version of Logic Pro, according to the company's head of music product marketing, Xander Soren. Last week, a rumor originating from a Pro Tools enthusiast website suggested that Apple was firing most of its professional audio software group, which if true would likely mean the end for Logic. Although other reports have since dismissed the claim, a MacRumors reader says he emailed Apple CEO Tim Cook, who then passed his concerns on to Soren.

"Nicholas, thanks for your email," reads Soren's response. "As the lead for our music creation apps, I always want to hear what our users are thinking. I want to assure you the team is still in place and hard at work on the next version of Logic Pro." Various other industry insiders have also disputed the claim. Apple has, however, been seen to have neglected Logic for years. The last major release, like that of the iWork suite, came in 2009, and since then the most the company has done is add 64-bit support, move the app to the Mac App Store, and post minor maintenance updates.

[Spheric Harlot]

"Eclipsed"?

Not really.


Of course it's "eclipsed" by Ableton Live. In the same way a turbo-charged delivery van is "eclipsed" by an MX5. What a stupid example to list.

By ProTools? Hm. I know I'd like the pitch-correction tools built into Steinberg's Cubase, but from a recent patent, it sounds like the folks in Rellingen are working on something a lot more complex than that.

Beyond that?

[blahblahbber]

I've lost interest in Logic just like crApple has lost interest in it.... Thank god for Native Instruments to make up for the neglect.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by blahblahbber 

I've lost interest in Logic just like crApple has lost interest in it.... Thank god for Native Instruments to make up for the neglect.

You must be referring to Maschine.

I'm not sure anyone could seriously compare the two unless one is really only dabbling in toys: they have completely different focus and capabilities. Maschine is related to Ableton Live, not a tracking/sequencing program like Logic or Cubase.

[mojkarma]

Originally Posted by blahblahbber 

I've lost interest in Logic just like crApple has lost interest in it.... Thank god for Native Instruments to make up for the neglect.

Logic = software sequencer
Nativ Instrument = company which produces vst/au instruments
Apples to oranges.

But it's true that Apple obviously lost any interest in their software. A shame how they bought the Emagic company, made the Logic application mac only and then they left a version as it is for more than three years.

[blahblahbber]

I am aware NI is VSTs.... I am just thanking them for adding value to DAWs; Logic would be near dead with out these VSTs/plugins keeping them alive.... What do you guys recommend??... I am ready to get into music creation and dust off my T-Racks 24. Anyone know of any good DAWs to work with that will work with NI under OSX? Kinda want to push this rMBP to its limits.

Also, if anyone knows of any really great high quality instrument sampling packs, please let me know. Thanks ahead.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by mojkarma 

Originally Posted by blahblahbber 

I've lost interest in Logic just like crApple has lost interest in it.... Thank god for Native Instruments to make up for the neglect.

Logic = software sequencer
Nativ Instrument = company which produces vst/au instruments
Apples to oranges.

But it's true that Apple obviously lost any interest in their software. A shame how they bought the Emagic company, made the Logic application mac only and then they left a version as it is for more than three years.

Native Instruments makes a production software/hardware combo called Maschine. But it has a completely different focus.

Since Emagic was only months away from bankruptcy (due in large part to the fact that some 80% of Windows-based users were pirating, vs. 20% of Mac users), I'd say goddamn thank you to Apple for buying them.

Since they bought Emagic, the audio engine got a complete overhaul (Logic 8 sounded much better than all previous versions), they've dropped the price to less than 5% of what it used to cost (full Logic platinum with all plug-ins used to cost over $5,000), and have given the interface a complete overhaul and made it actually usable (prior to Logic 7, you had to know exactly how a studio was built - to even start working with Logic, you had to construct and wire up the entire environment).

Logic has had continual maintenance updates, was one of the first audio apps to go 64-bit, and at 9.1.8, has been absolutely rock-solid for me.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by blahblahbber 

I am aware NI is VSTs.... I am just thanking them for adding value to DAWs; Logic would be near dead with out these VSTs/plugins keeping them alive....

You really haven't the slightest ****ing clue what you're talking about. Sorry.

Nobody buys Logic for the plugins except for hobbyists. They're okay for sketches and demos, but nobody uses anything other than Logic's effects (and maybe Sculpture) for production.

It is simply neither the focus, nor the purpose, of the software.

[mojkarma]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Since Emagic was only months away from bankruptcy (due in large part to the fact that some 80% of Windows-based users were pirating, vs. 20% of Mac users), I'd say goddamn thank you to Apple for buying them.
Since they bought Emagic, the audio engine got a complete overhaul (Logic 8 sounded much better than all previous versions), they've dropped the price to less than 5% of what it used to cost (full Logic platinum with all plug-ins used to cost over $5,000), and have given the interface a complete overhaul and made it actually usable (prior to Logic 7, you had to know exactly how a studio was built - to even start working with Logic, you had to construct and wire up the entire environment).
Logic has had continual maintenance updates, was one of the first audio apps to go 64-bit, and at 9.1.8, has been absolutely rock-solid for me.

1. I'll rather not express what I think about the "win users are pirating, mac users are not" crap because I could get an immediate ban from here. I'd just like to here how one comes to such a crazy conclusion?
2. Yes, Apple dropped the price. They did it just to wink people over to the Mac. Good for users. On the other side, they almost ruined the whole competition who lives just from making sequencer software with that dumping price.
3. I use Logic and I know what is new and what has changed. Considering how long Apple owns Logic, they didn't change very much. But I don't want to discuss with you whether the glass is half empty or half full. For me, fact is that Apple neglected their professional and semiprofessional software. No new Logic for more than 3 years, but instead we have some new Garageband with features from Logic every 6 to 9 months.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by mojkarma 

1. I'll rather not express what I think about the "win users are pirating, mac users are not" crap because I could get an immediate ban from here. I'd just like to here how one comes to such a crazy conclusion?

It doesn't matter what you think. At all. Platform wars are *so* '90s. And the computer market was a very different place in 2002 than it is today.

Look at it this way: Either I'm right, or I'm wrong.
But either way, Emagic was close to bankruptcy, so whatever they were doing wasn't working, and if Apple hadn't bought them, they probably wouldn't exist anymore. (Note that Steinberg, maker of Cubase, was bought up shortly afterwards.)

I don't recall exactly whether I read the "80% pirated vs. 80% legal" figure back at the time, or whether it came from one of my friends at Emagic (the company was, and still is, around the corner from here), but figure this:
Emagic made some 65% of their revenue off Mac versions of their software. 65% off <5% of the market at the time. You do the math.

Originally Posted by mojkarma 

2. Yes, Apple dropped the price. They did it just to wink people over to the Mac. Good for users. On the other side, they almost ruined the whole competition who lives just from making sequencer software with that dumping price.

Yep. The attitude behind the initial bundling of all plug-ins and Logic into the "Pro" package (and the slashing of the price to ⅕ of what it had been) was that a Logic license meant a Mac sold. They went far beyond that when they slashed it to $500 (from the original $5,000) and dropped the XSKey copy protection dongle—after all, you'd already bought the dongle (your Mac).

Emagic had an installed legal user base of around 200,000 licenses. I'm sure that Apple's dropping of the price with Logic Studio (Logic 8) put that number in the millions, and every one of those bought a Mac.

It also meant that you could get a Macintosh AND a full production suite for the same price as JUST buying Steinberg's Nuendo. I know that the Logic Studio release party was a mixed affair for the Emagic team, the relief of finally having the best version ever out the door (with a completely re-done audio engine, and a completely redesigned interface) tempered by the knowledge that they'd just delivered a massive kick in the nuts to the entire industry.

It didn't matter that much to Steinberg; IIRC, they were already a wholly-owned subsidiary of Yamaha at this point (after having been bought out of near-bankruptcy by Pinnacle in 2003, a year after the Emagic buy-out. Pinnacle sold them to Yamaha a year later, and were themselves bought by Avid/digidesign a year after that).

Originally Posted by mojkarma 

3. I use Logic and I know what is new and what has changed. Considering how long Apple owns Logic, they didn't change very much. But I don't want to discuss with you whether the glass is half empty or half full. For me, fact is that Apple neglected their professional and semiprofessional software. No new Logic for more than 3 years, but instead we have some new Garageband with features from Logic every 6 to 9 months.

Sorry, but if that's your impression: You're wrong.

The latest version of GarageBand was released in October 2010.

When Apple bought Emagic, it was at version 5.
—The interface overhaul in Logic 8 was MASSIVE. It took the entire thing from "nightmarish" to "oh wow, I actually WANT to work with this" overnight. I am not kidding, and I know I'm not alone in this.
—The difference in audio quality was pretty notable (at least to me).
—The addition of Flex Time was HUGE. So was comping.
—And there are TONS of little interface tweaks (like per-region dB adjustments) that made work SO much more effective and quick.

What else needs to happen?

Really, the only things I'd like to see are some Melodyne-like capability (Cubase has this, monophonic only though AFAIK), and an option for more loop-based approaches a la Live or Maschine (working with Ultrabeat for this is a pain in the ass). I'm fine with its priority being on linear workflows, though.
Oh, and PLEASE give it phase-accurate plug-in processing. I'd really appreciate it if delays and reverbs didn't sound different depending upon CPU load or low-latency mode, just because I hit stop and then played the segment again. It's subtle, but subtlety happens to be part of my job.

I know Logic is due for an overhaul, and I'm looking forward to the next version.

[blahblahbber]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

You really haven't the slightest ****ing clue what you're talking about. Sorry.
Nobody buys Logic for the plugins except for hobbyists. They're okay for sketches and demos, but nobody uses anything other than Logic's effects (and maybe Sculpture) for production.
It is simply neither the focus, nor the purpose, of the software.

Guess you jumped the gun here, again. I did not say I use Logic just for plugins. I am explaining how I use Logic, which includes the use of plugins. Absorb what I give, and don't interpret it any other way. Simple Logic, mind my pun


I've used Ableton Live before and got it making great pieces near instantly; though I have yet to spend time with cubase, reason, cakewalk, etc.

[Charles Martin]

I don't know beans about Logic, but I just wanted to add that I recently interviewed a NY-based composer for a long-running TV show everyone here has heard of. He uses Logic to do the music for the show. He liked Cubase better, but eventually moved to Logic because its better for the music he has to create for this TV show.

Thus, I think I can say with some confidence that people who claim Logic is an inferior choice for music creation simply don't know what they are talking about. It may not be your favourite, that's fine; you couldargue it's not the very best tool, that's fine too(I wouldn't know) -- but plenty of award-winning professional composers seem to use it in real-world work environments, so I'd have to say that even lacking any major overhaul in the last three years (which a lot of users would dread anyway, as it risks disrupting their workflow) that Logic as it stands is still a world-class contender.

As for the long gap between overhauls, getting such things right is really hard. Adobe, MS and most other major software makers don't really overhaul their flagship products any more often that that either, so it doesn't surprise me that its been a while since Logic got a real makeover. It just takes time unless you're just doing it for changes' sake it seems to me.

[blahblahbber]

Logic does have the ability to create your own instrument... so it does have infinite possibilities, that's for sure. I just think that it needs a real overhaul, like better optimization for better CPU utilization and maybe cuda processing enhancement to help out with the processing... and if anything... the ability to change the color schemes to your individual taste; that would be a great addition though not exactly necessary. I mean the interface works but can feel cluttered real fast.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by blahblahbber 

Logic does have the ability to create your own instrument… so it does have infinite possibilities, that's for sure.

I have absolutely no idea what this is supposed to mean, and I strongly suspect that you don't either.

"Create your own instrument…"?

Originally Posted by blahblahbber 

I just think that it needs a real overhaul, like better optimization for better CPU utilization and maybe cuda processing enhancement to help out with the processing...

Why?

Are you running into CPU limits?

I haven't managed to do so yet, and I'm running 80+ track productions on an early-2011 (dual-core) i7 13" MacBook Pro.

Of course, I don't use many software instruments at all (if any), so YMMV.

It just GOT A COMPLETE OVERHAUL in Logic 8. THE ENTIRE AUDIO ENGINE HAS BEEN REWRITTEN.

If you think a professional tool needs a complete revamp simply because it doesn't tickle your fancy to look at something that hasn't changed much, then go get yourself another ****ing hobby, because they better not fix a tool that ain't broken if my livelihood depends upon it.

Although, speaking of which: A lot of what I do involves notation.
Logic's notation functionality Really Does Suck Ass Balls. It's very deep and quite competent, but some stuff is still pretty ass-backwards — they fixed pretty much the entire rest of Logic's interface in their huge Logic 8 makeover, but they neglected the notation aspect of it.

Also: Color schemes? WTF?
Yeah, it can feel cluttered. Studios aren't toys. I find Airbus cockpits can look "cluttered" too. Maybe they should eliminate three-fourths of the functionality and add color-schemes.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by blahblahbber 

I've used Ableton Live before and got it making great pieces near instantly; though I have yet to spend time with cubase, reason, cakewalk, etc.

My conclusion was apparently perfectly reasonable: You are using it as a toy, and you have no clue about the difference between a linear production software and a loop-based one like Ableton, other than that Ableton Live allowed you to make "great pieces near instantly".

They are entirely different concepts, used to do entirely different things.

I'd like a loop-based sequencer mode in Logic for things like what Ableton Live was conceived to do, but I'd in no way expect it to rival Ableton (just like Ableton's linear mode is shit if you wish to primarily work linearly).

[blahblahbber]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

My conclusion was apparently perfectly reasonable: You are using it as a toy, and you have no clue about the difference between a linear production software and a loop-based one like Ableton, other than that Ableton Live allowed you to make "great pieces near instantly".
They are entirely different concepts, used to do entirely different things.
I'd like a loop-based sequencer mode in Logic for things like what Ableton Live was conceived to do, but I'd in no way expect it to rival Ableton (just like Ableton's linear mode is shit if you wish to primarily work linearly).

Hey any software can be used as a toy... so why bring that up?? Anyhow, Logic has choked on me before so YMMV is right. Ball is in my court bud.

Cluttered stuff becomes apparent when using instruments and effects... not sure how to optimize 3rd party interface stuff; that part of the issue.

Lastly, I'm not sure what part of "creating your own instrument" in Logic do YOU not understand?I understand it can take HOURS to make and master music, so save your linear talk. What are you trying to prove here? Now I like Logic for the total control you can have in most aspects of piecing things together. Remember Peak DV?

[Spheric Harlot]

I have no idea what you mean by being able to "create your own instrument" in Logic.

There is no part of it that I understand.

I can use any of Logic's internal instrument plug-ins, and I can install any number of third-party instruments, and I can process any of those and real instruments to my heart's content using standard studio tools, er "clutter".

Also, thank you for bringing up Peak. It also has absolutely nothing to do with Logic, at all. Completely different focus, completely different tool.

Enjoy playing with Logic. Next time it "clogs up", let us know what it reported. 10 times out of 10 it's been "disk too slow" here. A situation unlikely to be alleviated by "better CPU utilization and maybe cuda processing enhancement to help out with the processing", but then, maybe I'm just clueless as to the needs if the average audio toy.

What do I know, right?

"Color schemes", indeed.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by blahblahbber 

Also, if anyone knows of any really great high quality instrument sampling packs, please let me know. Thanks ahead.

What for?

Drums? Pianos? Strings? Horns? Guitars? Vintage Synths?

There's tons and tons of specialty packs out there. Be prepared to spend *well* into the triple-digit amounts for the good ones, though.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Nobody buys Logic for the plugins except for hobbyists. They're okay for sketches and demos, but nobody uses anything other than Logic's effects (and maybe Sculpture) for production.

Are you saying that professional Logic users mainly rely on the built-in plug-ins, or are you saying no one uses the built-in plug-ins? Just curious.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Nobody buys Logic for the plugins except for hobbyists. They're okay for sketches and demos, but nobody uses anything other than Logic's effects (and maybe Sculpture) for production.

Are you saying that professional Logic users mainly rely on the built-in plug-ins, or are you saying no one uses the built-in plug-ins? Just curious.

I'm saying that nobody I know uses the built-in virtual instrument plug-ins for production, other than Sculpture and maybe Ultrabeat (which actually is a pretty kick-ass, if complex, drum machine). The sampler is of somewhat more use now that there's a "chop up and assign to notes in sampler" function built into Logic.

Basically, most Logic instruments just aren't very good. They *are* okay for demos and for background stuff, and they're certainly fine for being included with what would still be a ridiculously cheap high-end sequencer even WITHOUT them.
But if this is your job, you're buying Logic for other reasons. The plug-ins are pretty much gravy, with some exceptions.

The PROCESSING plug-ins, I do use pretty widely. 'Specially the Space Designer. That reverb plug-in used to cost €600 ON ITS OWN when I first bought into the platform, a year or so before Apple bought Emagic out.

[gradient]

Originally Posted by blahblahbber 

Hey any software can be used as a toy... so why bring that up??

If you're using it as a toy then your opinions on what the software should or should not do and be capable of are totally irrelevant because it was not designed to be used as a toy, even if it can be. It is designed with much higher goals in mind.

Anyhow, Logic has choked on me before so YMMV is right. Ball is in my court bud.

Spheric's response to this is bang on.

Cluttered stuff becomes apparent when using instruments and effects... not sure how to optimize 3rd party interface stuff; that part of the issue.

To support an earlier comment by Spheric, professionals (for whom this software is designed) need tools. Some times a lot of tools. What they don't need is a feature set that's been dumbed down so as to appear "uncluttered" to hobbyists.

I understand it can take HOURS to make and master music, so save your linear talk. What are you trying to prove here?

Thank you for this, it gave me a good laugh. HOURS? Really? Trust me - if you are consistently writing, producing, and mastering music in a time frame that would be counted in hours you're likely to be producing something that's only really suitable for the amusement of yourself and your friends. Again, not what this software is designed for. The time frame for producing music from end to end is most often measured in weeks and months.

Now I like Logic for the total control you can have in most aspects of piecing things together. Remember Peak DV?

Peak was (and still is) a fantastic software platform. Really, really good. And it has nothing to do with Logic whatsoever.

Overall, I have no clue why you're trying to argue with Spheric on this. He clearly has an understanding of this topic which is far superior to yours.

[blahblahbber]

Originally Posted by gradient 

If you're using it as a toy then your opinions on what the software should or should not do and be capable of are totally irrelevant because it was not designed to be used as a toy, even if it can be. It is designed with much higher goals in mind.
Spheric's response to this is bang on.
To support an earlier comment by Spheric, professionals (for whom this software is designed) need tools. Some times a lot of tools. What they don't need is a feature set that's been dumbed down so as to appear "uncluttered" to hobbyists.
Thank you for this, it gave me a good laugh. HOURS? Really? Trust me - if you are consistently writing, producing, and mastering music in a time frame that would be counted in hours you're likely to be producing something that's only really suitable for the amusement of yourself and your friends. Again, not what this software is designed for. The time frame for producing music from end to end is most often measured in weeks and months.
Peak was (and still is) a fantastic software platform. Really, really good. And it has nothing to do with Logic whatsoever.
Overall, I have no clue why you're trying to argue with Spheric on this. He clearly has an understanding of this topic which is far superior to yours.

Not arguing with Spheric, but I don't need to be placed in a corner just cause I don't do this for a living. When I say hours, I do include weeks and months END to END. I have produced music, mastered music, and have serious pieces if anyone is interested in listening... and have trained individuals to produce music as well since 2004. Now again, I am admitting I DO NOT USE LOGIC TO EAT AND LIVE. So, when I ask what kind of sound banks or packages work well with LOGIC, I just want to update my database of bytes... And I do want mostly wind, string, and drums, the electronic samples I can create myself. I am wanting to not go below 96kHz quality so keep in mind please.

on a final note, I mention peak dv because it is nostalgic to me, it came bundled with final cut 1 or 2, I cannot remember I believe. It's been quite a while since my modded dual 500 G4. hehe

I love making music, and I would love to get back into it again. Anybody have a favorite pair of headphones for these tasks?? I cannot really pull out my complete sound monitor setup just yet... But I do have a great headphone driver if it helps. Thanks

[blahblahbber]

sorry folks I got the yard stick again.


Warning Issued
Conversation between chas_m and me

chas_m
Yesterday at 9:15 am
Putting "haha" in front of a personal attack is not going to work here, I'm afraid. I've deleted the post, please re-submit without the dig at Spheric, because the rest of it is perfectly fine and indeed nice to see from you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blahblahbber

hey, I don't get paid to use logic spheric, so I hope you do. Color schemes would be good for setting the mood to your "music" with glow priorities in your immediate/active workspace; "clutter" can blur out for a more focus in the UI elements directly in relation to the execution at hand.... I can see it may be a drag for someone who works for someone else for a living.... but maybe I am too advanced for your kind.

All in all, I am glad you feel confident on all this, cause now I know at least you are close to knowing something in life.

I used Peak to work my audio before when I'd create my Director animation portfolios although the effects were what I craved for... back when "new media" was coined.

I like logic, but it's a bit stale now for my tastes. Wonder if there will be more than a "Retina" update soon.