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Your question about why he would get a "second date" is reasonable. Perhaps Lemon should have asked that.
Indeed.
Originally Posted by subego
Here's some total conjecture.
It's a semi-public event she's being invited to. Cosby casually mentions all the Hollywood players who will be in attendance, also as guests. A backstage pass to this has obvious potential career benefits to an aspiring actress. She presumes, even backstage, there will be enough people around for him not to try anything. She thinks, "as long as I don't let myself be alone with him, I'll be okay".
No idea if this is how it happened. The point though is there are plausible explanations for why someone would do this.
I suppose that's possible for the one lady. But the other lady acknowledges an "on and off again affair" with Cosby for YEARS after this alleged incident. That just doesn't add up to me.
I suppose that's possible for the one lady. But the other lady acknowledges an "on and off again affair" with Cosby for YEARS after this alleged incident. That just doesn't add up to me.
Then you aren't familiar with how easy it is to manipulate people.
I should also add, many women consider themselves totally responsible for being raped, and thusly don't say anything about it until (sometimes, many years) later, when it finally gets mental processing.
This can very easily lead to a situation where someone continues to have a relationship with their rapist. It's actually scary common.
As your own anecdote shows, OAW, sometimes people do things that aren't good for them. Plenty of women stay in abusive relationships, out of survival, fear, shame, self-hate, and the misguided belief that they don't deserve any better. I might also add that in the past, true "rape" was believed to be only done by strangers in dark alleys, and all this greyarea stuff we're discussing was considered okeydokey by many. Want a job honey? Come to this casting couch. Go to a party and get tipsy? Free game. Go to a party? Have this *special* drink, and oh btw, free game. Wear a skimpy outfit? Asking for it.
I'm not ok with pulling consent retroactively, or trying to use a rape excuse to justify your own bad decisions, but there is too much victim-blaming. All the men who finally came forward to admit they'd been abused by a priest... should they have known better than to let it happen a second time? How come they couldn't stop it? Not just of course because they were children, but because the priests had more POWER over them. Because they felt shame to tell anyone.
Maybe this is an incorrect analogy, but I'm hoping it makes it better. Bill Cosby is a scam-artist, but instead of trying to get the women to hand over money, he's getting them to hand over their body, through guilt, shaming, manipulation, and aggressive acts. If he had swindled all these people out of money, repeatedly over the years, no one would ask "at what point does a grown ass woman become responsible for her own decisions?" A scam is a scam.
I'm not ok with pulling consent retroactively, or trying to use a rape excuse to justify your own bad decisions,
Agreed.
Originally Posted by andi*pandi
but there is too much victim-blaming.
But therein lies the rub. It's like a woman can merely make an allegation. 20 - 40 years later. In what is AT BEST a "he said/she said" situation. And yet in some quarters she's automatically considered to be a "victim" instead of an "alleged victim". Therefore her actions can't be questioned lest they be considered "victim-blaming". And that just strikes me as fundamentally unfair.
Maybe this is an incorrect analogy, but I'm hoping it makes it better. Bill Cosby is a scam-artist, but instead of trying to get the women to hand over money, he's getting them to hand over their body, through guilt, shaming, manipulation, and aggressive acts. If he had swindled all these people out of money, repeatedly over the years, no one would ask "at what point does a grown ass woman become responsible for her own decisions?" A scam is a scam.
Perhaps. But Bill Cosby is an incredibly wealthy celebrity. Fame and fortune beyond measure. All of that simply isn't necessary to get a woman to hand over her body. There's plenty of women from all walks of life who will willingly throw themselves at a man in his position. We call them "groupies". And I've yet to see any hard evidence that makes a "serial rapist" explanation more likely than the "groupie scorned" explanation for 2-3 of them. That being said, I have no reason to wonder this about Ms. Constand or Ms. Green. And given the sheer number of allegations made either he's the unluckiest SOB in the country this week or there's some kind of "smoke" there. The exact nature of which remains unknown. But something seems to be up one way or another.
There's plenty of women from all walks of life who will willingly throw themselves at a man in his position.
We live in a world where Hugh Grant paid for sex at the height of his stardom. What people want and what people can get aren't always aligned. As someone else pointed out Cosby may have been into the power trip of getting less than willing women to acquiesce to his demands.
Perhaps. But Bill Cosby is an incredibly wealthy celebrity. Fame and fortune beyond measure. All of that simply isn't necessary to get a woman to hand over her body. There's plenty of women from all walks of life who will willingly throw themselves at a man in his position. We call them "groupies".
Again: you're arguing from the erroneous assumption that rape/abuse are about sex.
The availability of sex has nothing to do with the abuse of positions of power over others.
Tarshis has explained the details of the "second date".
It should be noted Tarshis was a writer, and the stated purpose of their first meeting was for her to write some jokes.
That is the claimed lure for the second meeting. Cosby was going to use some of her jokes. Cosby also invited her mom, which undoubtedly lowered her defenses.
She had a drink in the limo to calm her nerves, and was flattened by the time she was at the show. She went to lay down in the limo, and woke up naked in a hotel room.
A former NBC employee has shown NBC News receipts for money orders that he says he sent to women at Bill Cosby's direction.
Frank Scotti, now 90, says he also regularly brought women to Cosby's dressing room. He told Kate Snow in an interview that aired on TODAY Monday that the job made him feel “like a pimp.”
But one of the women whose name appears on several money orders says the gifts were purely the product of Cosby’s “generosity” and were intended to help pay for her son’s boarding school.
“It is a shame that Dr. William Cosby’s generosity is being questioned and maligned,” said Alva Chinn, a model and actress who appeared in several episodes of “The Cosby Show.” “The source could have asked me first before releasing these money orders.”
Scotti said that he left a job at NBC to work as a special assistant to Cosby during the taping of “The Cosby Show” in Brooklyn and Queens, New York. The show ran on NBC from 1984 to 1992.
According to Scotti, Cosby asked him to send money to various women, sometimes thousands of dollars a month. He showed NBC News receipts for eight money orders that he says he mailed to four women. The amounts range from $398 to $1000 and the money orders date from 1989 and 1990.
Three money orders are made out to Alva Chin (sic). Two are for $1,000 and the amount on the third is illegible.
Two money orders totaling $1400 are made out to “Angela Leslie,” which is the name of a woman who alleges that Cosby sexually assaulted her in Las Vegas in 1992. Leslie, who said she had only met Cosby once before, told TODAY that Cosby put his hand “where it shouldn’t have been” and she pushed him off. The money orders were dated August 13, 1990.
Leslie told NBC News she got two checks from Cosby and that the money was intended to fly her to see him at an awards show, and also included money for her to spend while there. She said she did not make the trip and returned the money.
Another is made out to Shawn Thompson. Shawn Thompson is the mother of Autumn Jackson, who was convicted in 1997 of trying to extort money from Cosby to keep her from telling the tabloids that he might be her father. During Jackson’s trial, Cosby said he had had an affair with Shawn Thompson and had given her money. Autumn Jackson refused to take a paternity test.
Said Scotti, “All I know is that Bill Cosby told me that certain people, I want you to send this money out to them. He told me how much and I said fine and I went and got money orders.” He said he never delivered the money but always sent it by mail, and never met the women to whom he sent money.
Scotti said he sent one of the women $2,000 a month. Scotti said he kept evidence of the money orders in case Cosby ever questioned him, because he didn't want Cosby to think he was stealing.
He also said he stood guard outside Cosby’s dressing room while women were inside. Said Scotti, "He said, , 'Frank, I want you to stand outside and don’t let anyone in.' So I said fine and I did that.“ He said he suspected Cosby was having sex with the women but did not know.
Martin Singer, Cosby’s attorney told NBC News that Scotti was seeking attention. "It appears that his story is pure speculation so that he can get his 15 minutes of fame,'' said Singer.
In a statement released Friday, Singer said, “It is completely illogical that so many people would have said nothing, done nothing and made no reports to law enforcement or asserted civil claims if they thought they had been assaulted over a span of so many years.”
Cosby has never been charged with a crime, but 18 women have now publicly accused the comedy legend of sexual assault or attempted assault. The actor has always denied allegations of assault.
"I know people are tired of me not saying anything, but a guy doesn't have to answer to innuendos,'' Cosby told Florida Today after receiving a standing ovation at a comedy show on Saturday. "People should fact-check."
I doubt Heffner even meets most of the people who are in the mansion at any given time.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
I'm still not convinced of the credibility of some of the accusers. I have a big problem with publicly accusing someone of a rape that allegedly occurred in the 1960s since there's no way to prove that one way or the other. I suspect there may be some "jumping on the bandwagon" in some instances. But indeed ... there's way too much smoke to ignore.
Woman alleges Cosby raped her -- and other Playboy bunnies
By Greg Botelho, CNN
December 6, 2014 -- Updated 0014 GMT (0814 HKT)
New Cosby accuser: 12 more were raped
P.J. Masten says she was a Playboy bunny when she met comedian Bill Cosby
She alleges that Cosby drugged and raped her in a Chicago hotel
Masten says other former Playboy bunnies were sexually assaulted by Cosby
The comedian's camp has repeatedly, vigorously denied similar stories
(CNN) -- By the late 1960s, Bill Cosby was a married man well on his way to having five children, not to mention a landmark career in stand-up comedy, television and beyond.
He was also no stranger to Playboy.
Now that connection is among those coming back to him, as more and more women -- at least 21, by CNN's count -- accuse him of sexual misconduct. Many of them claim the legendary comedian drugged and raped them.
Among Cosby's accusers is Judy Huth, who recently sued Cosby alleging he sexually molested her at the Playboy Mansion when she was 15 years old. Another woman who worked as a server, or "bunny," at a Playboy club accused Cosby of forcibly kissing her, and a former Playboy playmate alleged he drugged and raped her.
And, P.J. Masten, one of the two ex-bunnies who have publicly accused Cosby of sexual assault, told CNN's Alisyn Camerota that there are other women who have not come forward, or will not.
"(There are) 12 former bunnies that I know of that are ashamed to come forward, frightened to come forward, married with families (and) don't want to come forward." Masten said. "But they were also drugged and raped by Bill Cosby."
Cosby's camp didn't respond to a CNN request for comment on Masten's allegation, though his lawyer has repeatedly and strongly denied such accusations in recent weeks. Notably, too, none of the accusers is known to have immediately gone to law enforcement, nor has Cosby been ever charged with a crime.
As to Playboy, Masten says she told her supervisor soon after she claimed Cosby had drugged and raped her at a Chicago hotel.
"She said to me, 'You know that's Hef's best friend, right?'" Masten recounted, referring to Playboy founder Hugh Hefner. "I said, 'Yes.' She said, 'Well, nobody is going to believe you. I suggest you keep your mouth shut.'"
Hefner responded to the allegations in a statement Friday, saying "Bill Cosby has been a good friend for many years and the mere thought of these allegations is truly saddening. I would never tolerate this kind of behavior, regardless of who was involved."
The new accusations could further sully the reputation of Cosby -- the man behind children's programming like "Fat Albert" and "Little Bill," and whose eponymous No. 1 sitcom, "The Cosby Show," cast him as a wisecracking, doting family man.
Ex-bunny: 'I was raped' at Chicago hotel
Open the centerfold of a Playboy magazine, and you might glimpse a "playmate" oftentimes nude and sometimes living or near Hefner's mansion in Los Angeles.
P.J. Masten was a "bunny." Or, in other words, she was a waitress -- albeit one in 3-inch high heels, 5-inch bunny ears and a tight-fitting costume.
She was in her 20s when, in 1972, she began working at a Playboy club in northern New Jersey. Masten would end up working at similar clubs in Los Angeles and Chicago.
It was in Chicago that Cosby invited her out to lunch one afternoon, even jumping behind the counter to make hot dogs.
"Everybody was in there laughing," Masten recalled. "It was a lot of fun."
The comedian called the next day, asking her out to dinner and to meet her at the Whitehall Hotel. Masten went up to his room -- not suspicious at all, she said -- and four of Cosby's friends were with him watching sports, smoking cigars and playing cards.
Cosby asked Masten if she wanted a cocktail before dinner, preparing a glass of Grand Marnier and ice behind her. She took it and drank it, she said.
"The next thing I knew, it was 4 o'clock in the morning," she alleged. "I woke up in a bed naked, bruised. He was laying next to me, and I slithered out of the bed... I got myself together, I went downstairs, I got in a cab, and I went home."
Asked by CNN's Camerota what she think happened, Masten didn't hesitate.
"There were bruise marks all over me," she claimed. "I knew I was raped."
Several other public accusers with Playboy connection
Masten said she's been in therapy for years, trying to salve her emotional wounds. But it's only now, about four decades later, that she's decided to come public -- feeling compelled to act after hearing about Huth.
"That was it for me," Masten said. "This man has to be held accountable. He's a serial rapist. He's been that way since the '60s."
Huth's story also has a Playboy connection. In her lawsuit, filed in Los Angeles Superior Court, she claims that Cosby met her and a 16-year-old friend when he was filming a movie in the Southern California city's Lacy Park.
He invited them to his tennis club, serving them alcoholic beverages there, then took them to the Playboy Mansion, according to the lawsuit.
Huth claims Cosby sexually molested her after she came out of a bathroom there, alleging his actions were "malicious, oppressive and fraudulent."
The comedian's lawyer, Martin D. Singer, has since filed a pleading calling Huth's claims "absolutely false" and accusing her of attempted extortion.
Another accuser, Carla Ferrigno, says she was an 18-year-old Playboy bunny when she went with a male friend to Cosby's Beverly Hills home in 1967 and kissed her roughly after her date left the room.
Playboy playmate Victoria Valentino says a friend introduced her to Cosby hoping to help her get work on his show "I Spy" in the late 1960s. She alleges he gave her pills at dinner to "cheer up," after which she felt "stoned" as he took her to another place.
There, Valentino said Cosby pushed himself near her mouth, before turning her around and raping her.
Asked by CNN why she didn't speak out about the incident until recently, Valentino said, "As a playmate, I thought, who would believe me?"
Lots of talk among Playboy bunnies
Masten is convinced there are other women with ties to Playboy who have similar stories.
She said Cosby has come up at a recent reunion of Playboy bunnies, as well as in blogs and Facebook pages restricted to them.
The public allegations stirred up lots of private conversations, involving a number of women, Masten says.
"A couple of (them) private messaged me and said, 'He did me too. It happened to me, too.'"
Not quite the same IMHO. Groupie of a rock band in the 70s, it was basically a given that there would be drugged orgies. Forced sex is another matter.
mb mine was a bad comparison.... but my point is that groupies/fans are a curious dilemma if you've ever experienced it. People forget themselves, at least for the moment, and walk into all kinds of trouble quite willingly only to regret the act later.
"Faster, faster! 'Till the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death." - HST
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
Sometimes I'll hear a woman's voice on the radio, and wonder if she's hot. Surprise! I'm a guy!
The obvious thought is to Google for a picture. What's relevant here is I don't even need to see a picture anymore. Once you get to the first letter of her last name, the second autocomplete choice will be:
Salma Hayek back in `96? Yeah, no doubt I would have sucked on her tequila-drenched toes, and I'm not even a foot man (legs are where it's at).
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr