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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > Feedback > The Hammer Returns: Na-nana-na, Can't Touch This

The Hammer Returns: Na-nana-na, Can't Touch This
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subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
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Aug 26, 2017, 03:38 PM
 
It's so dusty, I'm a little surprised to see it used to knock someone into next week.
     
The Final Dakar
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
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Aug 26, 2017, 05:23 PM
 
What'd i miss?
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
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Aug 26, 2017, 05:34 PM
 
Shaddim got a week in the hole.
     
The Final Dakar
Games Meister
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Aug 26, 2017, 06:07 PM
 
For what, I meant.
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
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Aug 26, 2017, 06:37 PM
 
This I do not have an answer to, and was figuring the mods would fill us in.
     
Paco500
Professional Poster
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Aug 26, 2017, 07:54 PM
 
Well somewhat surprisingly (I don't think) it had anything to do with me.
     
OreoCookie
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Aug 27, 2017, 11:17 AM
 
What happened is quite straightforward, really: There were a number of reports about Shaddim's behavior in the PL. After some deliberations, we issued several infractions. Because the sum total of points exceeded the limit, Shaddim was automatically temp banned.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
besson3c
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Aug 27, 2017, 11:30 AM
 
I was wondering where he went. I don't remember seeing anything out of the ordinary from him in recent days prior to his departure...
     
Spheric Harlot
Clinically Insane
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Aug 27, 2017, 11:34 AM
 
I was debating whether to have my (voluntary) ban from the Poli Lounge lifted...I probably shouldn't.
     
OreoCookie
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Aug 27, 2017, 11:47 AM
 
Nah, feel free to try it again. If you insist, we'll reinstate your PL ban.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
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Aug 27, 2017, 11:51 AM
 
For subego:

     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
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Aug 27, 2017, 11:53 AM
 
Also for Subego (doesn't really have much to do with this thread, but I thought he would enjoy it):

     
subego  (op)
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Aug 27, 2017, 12:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
What happened is quite straightforward, really: There were a number of reports about Shaddim's behavior in the PL. After some deliberations, we issued several infractions. Because the sum total of points exceeded the limit, Shaddim was automatically temp banned.
Was there any warning, or did he suddenly get hit with the total pile of infractions?

If the individual complaints were minor, a shorter ban would have made the point.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Aug 27, 2017, 12:52 PM
 
Believe it or not, not one of those complaints or reports came from me.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego  (op)
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Aug 27, 2017, 01:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Also for Subego (doesn't really have much to do with this thread, but I thought he would enjoy it):

     
besson3c
Clinically Insane
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Aug 27, 2017, 01:36 PM
 
That's actually the picture I was trying to find, subego! It is really comforting knowing that there is somebody else my age-ish with the maturity level of a 15 year old
     
subego  (op)
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Aug 27, 2017, 02:10 PM
 
Tits or GTFO.
     
Chongo
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Aug 27, 2017, 02:27 PM
 
We need an animated meme.


For AntiFa and friends.

 
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
subego  (op)
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Aug 27, 2017, 02:31 PM
 
The rotoscoping gives it an ironic Ralph Bakshi feel.
     
OreoCookie
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Aug 27, 2017, 09:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Was there any warning, or did he suddenly get hit with the total pile of infractions?

If the individual complaints were minor, a shorter ban would have made the point.
In our judgement the complaints were not minor, otherwise we would have opted to issue warnings instead. The ban period is a default we have chosen a long time ago if the ban is triggered by the infraction point count. Shaddim is a long-time member of the forum with a history, he knows the rules and it is not his first rodeo. In this instance, we decided to aggregate the discussion of the various abuse reports and to “measure twice and cut once” (i. e. reacting to all of them after we had made up our minds). So on Shaddim's end it may seem as if we “piled on”, but that wasn't the case.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Chongo
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Aug 27, 2017, 09:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The rotoscoping gives it an ironic Ralph Bakshi feel.
Daffy?
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
subego  (op)
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Aug 27, 2017, 10:20 PM
 
Not of Daffy himself, but his target.
     
Chongo
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Aug 27, 2017, 10:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Not of Daffy himself, but his target.
thhhhhat's what meant.
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
subego  (op)
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Aug 28, 2017, 03:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
In our judgement the complaints were not minor, otherwise we would have opted to issue warnings instead. The ban period is a default we have chosen a long time ago if the ban is triggered by the infraction point count. Shaddim is a long-time member of the forum with a history, he knows the rules and it is not his first rodeo. In this instance, we decided to aggregate the discussion of the various abuse reports and to “measure twice and cut once” (i. e. reacting to all of them after we had made up our minds). So on Shaddim's end it may seem as if we “piled on”, but that wasn't the case.
I could be completely off, but my perception are things have gotten at least slightly more freewheeling since NN proper died, and as I said it's been ages since I've seen the ban counter. I can't remember the last time it happened.

If the first thing reported/seen is worth tagging him for a week, then there's nothing which can be done other than tagging him for a week.

If that first infraction wasn't worth a week, and he got a week because he piled up other infractions while the first one was being deliberated on, that seems at least a little unfair when matched with my (perhaps incorrect) perception things have been more hands-off than in the past. He very well may have reeled it in before the hole got so deep.
     
OreoCookie
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Aug 28, 2017, 04:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I could be completely off, but my perception are things have gotten at least slightly more freewheeling since NN proper died, and as I said it's been ages since I've seen the ban counter. I can't remember the last time it happened.
I haven't seen any figures, but traffic has come down — after all, how are you going to find these forums if you don't already know about them? So naturally, temp bans have become more rare of a thing.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
If that first infraction wasn't worth a week, and he got a week because he piled up other infractions while the first one was being deliberated on, that seems at least a little unfair when matched with my (perhaps incorrect) perception things have been more hands-off than in the past. He very well may have reeled it in before the hole got so deep.
We have just applied the points system as it has existed for many years: different infractions have different point scores. Active infraction points have a finite shelf life, and they become inactive after some period. If you cross a certain threshold, you are banned until you drop below the threshold — in this case, one week. We could manually adjust the ban period, but we have been using the point system consistently for the last few years. From experience, a one-week ban is practically the minimum temp ban duration. If we want to lengthen the vacation we give to an offending member, we would adjust the ban period manually. On rare occasions we block people just from the PL, but we haven't done that in a while.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Laminar
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
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Aug 28, 2017, 01:33 PM
 
I think subego's point is that MacNStein didn't get any warning infractions or any notice of reports or deliberation, just nothing and then all of a sudden a ban.

The point of the infraction system is that a user knows infractions that are coming in and can temper behavior to cool off before the infraction count gets too high. It's like your bank gathering a whole bunch of charges over time and sitting on them, then processing them all at once to ensure the account goes overdrawn. If the charges came in one by one, spending could be halted in time.

Or it's a leftist conspiracy by the liberal SJW mods.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Aug 28, 2017, 02:15 PM
 
My bank actually does that. Bastards.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
The Final Dakar
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
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Aug 28, 2017, 02:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
I think subego's point is that MacNStein didn't get any warning infractions or any notice of reports or deliberation, just nothing and then all of a sudden a ban.

The point of the infraction system is that a user knows infractions that are coming in and can temper behavior to cool off before the infraction count gets too high. It's like your bank gathering a whole bunch of charges over time and sitting on them, then processing them all at once to ensure the account goes overdrawn. If the charges came in one by one, spending could be halted in time.

Or it's a leftist conspiracy by the liberal SJW mods.
yes that seems like a fair analysis
     
reader50
Administrator
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Aug 28, 2017, 03:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
My bank actually does that. Bastards.
All banks used to do this. When the daily charges came in, they were sorted and processed from biggest to smallest. So if you hit an overdraw, they'd get as many overdraft penalties as possible.

I don't know if it's still this way. Paper checks are converted to electronic drafts, which mostly seem to get processed in real time. But in the past, they most definitely were after those penalties.
     
Chongo
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Aug 28, 2017, 04:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
All banks used to do this. When the daily charges came in, they were sorted and processed from biggest to smallest. So if you hit an overdraw, they'd get as many overdraft penalties as possible.

I don't know if it's still this way. Paper checks are converted to electronic drafts, which mostly seem to get processed in real time. But in the past, they most definitely were after those penalties.
After Wells Fargo took over First Interstate, the State of Arizona would not take WF checks for that very reason.
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" Saint Tertullian, 197 AD
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
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Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
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Aug 28, 2017, 04:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
I think subego's point is that MacNStein didn't get any warning infractions or any notice of reports or deliberation, just nothing and then all of a sudden a ban.

The point of the infraction system is that a user knows infractions that are coming in and can temper behavior to cool off before the infraction count gets too high. It's like your bank gathering a whole bunch of charges over time and sitting on them, then processing them all at once to ensure the account goes overdrawn. If the charges came in one by one, spending could be halted in time.
This is correct.

As luck would have it just got an infraction to remind me of the process.

I made a shitpost at about noon yesterday, within 24 hours I got dinged. I now know if I keep shitposting, I'm engaging in unacceptable behavior.
     
ghporter
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Aug 28, 2017, 10:01 PM
 
While it's possible to rack up a bunch of points pretty quickly, and "suddenly" find yourself banned, in this case it was not "quick" at all. "Warnings" in the form of infraction reports were issued over a long enough period of time that nobody could have been taken by surprise by the eventual temporary ban.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
OreoCookie
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Aug 28, 2017, 11:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
I think subego's point is that MacNStein didn't get any warning infractions or any notice of reports or deliberation, just nothing and then all of a sudden a ban.
Shaddim is no spring chicken, and has been warned in the past. The system worked exactly as intended, and if we had wanted to, we would have issued warnings rather than infractions.
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Or it's a leftist conspiracy by the liberal SJW mods.
We have always had these accusations regularly in the past, even when we had more (active) conservative mods taking care of the PL. The offended member would usually assume that it was this one liberal mod who went rogue and had it out for them, and “punished them” for their political opinions (rather than being a d*ck or trolling). Bans, especially manual bans are never, ever the action of a single person (sans spam, of course). Of course, even after so many years, the reprimanded (long-time) member often doesn't see it that way.

Since we introduced the infraction point system, things got a lot easier, because we no longer have to manually track which mod sent what to which member to cool things down. It was more subjective to issue temp bans and all that. You can see the number of past points and warning points, so that you immediately get an idea of how much trouble that member was in in the past.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
subego  (op)
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Aug 29, 2017, 01:56 AM
 
Now I'll admit I'm totally confused.

Was he hit with infractions as abuse reports came in, or were they aggregated for the purposes of "measure twice, cut once"?
     
OreoCookie
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Aug 29, 2017, 02:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Was he hit with infractions as abuse reports came in, or were they aggregated for the purposes of "measure twice, cut once"?
It is exactly as I wrote initially: we discussed the abuse reports in aggregate (as they were related) and then took action, temp banning Shaddim for a week.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
subego  (op)
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Aug 29, 2017, 02:38 AM
 
This is why I'm confused, because Glenn said,

"'Warnings' in the form of infraction reports were issued over a long enough period of time that nobody could have been taken by surprise by the eventual temporary ban."
     
OreoCookie
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Aug 29, 2017, 02:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
"'Warnings' in the form of infraction reports were issued over a long enough period of time that nobody could have been taken by surprise by the eventual temporary ban."
Glenn was speaking about how the infraction point system works in general: we can issue infractions and warnings, although you should be warned by the infractions and warnings you have received in the past. Receiving warnings will not increment your infraction point counter, but they are still tracked separately by the system (in the form of active warning points). That means if I issue 20 points worth of warnings, you will not be auto temp banned.

Depending on the type of infraction, the warning points become inactive after a set amount of time. That's useful for knowing how merciful to be: if you are a long-time member with a clean sheet and you post something you later regret on a bad hair day, it's likely we will either send you a pm or issue a warning. I have done this from time to time where I have sent messages to people who got wound up in a discussion, and most of them were courteous in how they replied (others less so).

However, if you have racked up a number of infraction points and warnings in the past, we are less inclined to let you off with a warning, especially if we deem that this behavior is standard of your MO. And of course, if you are someone who has racked up quite a few infractions and warnings, you should know that we will be more aggressive when it comes to the enforcement of forum rules (i. e. you have been warned). It's all pretty straight-forward really.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
subego  (op)
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Aug 29, 2017, 04:27 AM
 
I meant "warning" in the sense if I receive an infraction below the ban threshold, points or no, I've been "warned".

If I receive the infraction at the same time as a bunch of other infractions, enough so I get pushed over the total, I never got a chance to alter my behavior.

The latter strikes me as unfair, unless my transgressions are so rapid-fire it makes no sense to consider them as individual infractions.
     
OreoCookie
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Aug 29, 2017, 05:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I meant "warning" in the sense if I receive an infraction below the ban threshold, points or no, I've been "warned".
It's a judgement call if a warning suffices or not, one made by us. We don't go running around issuing infractions willy nilly, and we give special leeway to discussions in the PL (and I try to be diligent that this doesn't spill over to the other sub forums).
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The latter strikes me as unfair, unless my transgressions are so rapid-fire it makes no sense to consider them as individual infractions.
At the end of the day it is up to the staff to determine what is and isn't fair.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
subego  (op)
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Aug 29, 2017, 05:30 AM
 
At the end of the day it's up to the staff to run the forum. Most would hope this is done in a fair manner. If it is, the staff will be adjudicated by the members as having behaved as such. If not, they won't.

Again, the debate about the terminology is irrelevant. The question is whether users are given adequate opportunity to alter their behavior. Going from zero to ban does not offer this opportunity.

If this is what happened, I don't approve of it. I venture most don't.
     
sek929
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Location: Cape Cod, MA
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Aug 29, 2017, 05:44 PM
 
I went back through recent posts of his and honestly didn't see anything specifically more antagonistic than usual. Then again, I remain pretty far out of the loop with what happens in the Forbidden City.

Classist bigot and incurable ideologue
     
subego  (op)
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Aug 29, 2017, 06:00 PM
 
As someone pretty deep in the P-hole, my perception is the same. I saw no difference in what's been happening for months. This is the source for my claim it seems sudden.

The last time I reported "the usual", the thread got locked, or some other similarly drastic measure (I forget the exact details). I've kept my mouth shut from that point forward.
     
reader50
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Aug 29, 2017, 06:09 PM
 
8 posts were deleted at the time, including replies.

4 Cap'n Tightpants (3 infractions, 2 on deleted posts)
3 besson3c (1 infraction on a deleted post)
1 Paco500 (removed for the quote - no foul)
     
subego  (op)
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Aug 29, 2017, 06:11 PM
 
Useful information to know! Thank you!
     
andi*pandi
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Aug 29, 2017, 08:13 PM
 
I lost track of how many were moved to the derailment thread.
     
subego  (op)
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Aug 30, 2017, 06:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
I was debating whether to have my (voluntary) ban from the Poli Lounge lifted...I probably shouldn't.
The added viewpoint would be appreciated, but I ain't gonna lie, it's a slow-motion car crash.
     
Laminar
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Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
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Aug 30, 2017, 01:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Glenn was speaking about how the infraction point system works in general:
Doesn't sound like it.

Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
in this case it was not "quick" at all.
     
subego  (op)
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Aug 31, 2017, 02:12 AM
 
I'll start fresh.

If I were to look at the timestamps on the infraction list, would I go "it is obvious this person was given an opportunity to alter their behavior", or "it is unclear whether this person was given an opportunity to alter their behavior"?
     
OreoCookie
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Aug 31, 2017, 03:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Doesn't sound like it.
Maybe I misunderstood what subego was getting at (who I thought asked something along the lines of “How can he be warned if he directly received infractions?”), but I thought he was confused about issuing warnings as opposed to infractions and being warned. That part is general and applies to all members, not just this specific situation.

If I misunderstood subego here, then yes, you're right, l was giving an answer to a different question.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
subego  (op)
Clinically Insane
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Aug 31, 2017, 04:37 AM
 
I apologize for any semantic confusion caused by me using the wrong terminology.

What I'm trying to determine is the period of time over which the infractions in question were handed out. Was it a couple days? A couple minutes?
     
 
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