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Is [Person/Place/Thing] Racist? The Thread
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The Final Dakar
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Jan 13, 2018, 11:50 PM
 
Its a contentious issue, and I'm not helping things by making a thread devoid of nuance or definition, but the point here is to get some snap judgements and debate from there. So I present to you: Is He Racist? The thread

In here, a poster can present the name of a person or an organization or program or even just an action, and give their opinion. It can be a simple yes or no, or feel free to delve deeper and explain your reasoning. Maybe you just can't suss it out.

The impetus for finally making this thread is I've spent the past two years either designating or contemplating whether various GOP and Trump related figures are white supremacist, 'vanilla' racist or merely some shallower but still deplorable classification I don't know there's a name for.

A list of people/things I've considered, in no particular order:

Donald Trump
Jeff Sessions
Steve Bannon
Stephen Miller
Steve King
Tom Cotton
John Kelly
Some NFL owners
Immigration 'reform'
The Response in Puerto Rico after Hurricane Maria
Ben Shapiro/TheDailyWire
Voter ID
Concerns over terrorism/National Security
The Neimoidians from Episode I: The Phantom Menace
iOS Face ID
School Choice
Medicaid Work Requirements


The big finish here is after hemming and hawing for way too long, the shithole comments give me the confidence to say definitively, our President is your garden variety racist. I'd also say I've hesitated so long because it's not 'PC' to use the term.
     
subego
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Jan 14, 2018, 01:17 PM
 
FaceID?
     
Brien
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Jan 14, 2018, 11:59 PM
 
Yes to all.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jan 15, 2018, 12:22 AM
 
I would say there a few I wouldn't deem so.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jan 15, 2018, 10:54 AM
 
Part of the reason I started this thread: subego, do you still disagree Trump is racist?
     
OAW
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Jan 15, 2018, 03:23 PM
 
Regarding Trump, it would be "illuminating" to review this and before making a determination if his behavior warrants the benefit of the doubt.

Donald Trump's Racism - The Definitive List | NYTimes.com

OAW
     
subego
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Jan 17, 2018, 03:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Part of the reason I started this thread: subego, do you still disagree Trump is racist?
If we go back to when Trump announced his candidacy, my argument then wasn’t Trump isn’t a racist, but that he’s racist well within the parameters of conservative, old, rich, white people.

If forced to translate this into binary, either racist or not-racist, the question becomes where the line is drawn.

My approach to this isn’t particularly philosophical. I draw the line at whether what’s under consideration is salvageable. The issue with this group is they’re isolated and out of touch. I consider that salvageable, and has thus not crossed the line.

Trump himself may be unsalvageable, but this has nothing to do with belonging to that group, it’s due to him being a man-child.
     
andi*pandi
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Jan 17, 2018, 04:21 PM
 
So basically, he's not as racist as other old rich white guys?

The bar, it is sunk in the swamp.
     
subego
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Jan 17, 2018, 04:34 PM
 
I argued he’s equivalently racist.

“[H]e’s racist well within the parameters of conservative, old, rich, white people.”
     
andi*pandi
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Jan 17, 2018, 05:01 PM
 
That still makes me sad on behalf of white people.
     
BLAZE_MkIV
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Jan 17, 2018, 07:39 PM
 
But we've seen him acting badly toward other white people too.
     
andi*pandi
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Jan 17, 2018, 08:54 PM
 
True. He can be both a racist and a jackass though, right?
     
subego
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Jan 18, 2018, 12:13 AM
 
He’s an assist?
     
BLAZE_MkIV
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Jan 18, 2018, 04:19 PM
 
Can you though? Doesn't racism have to be specific? If you hate all poor people does that make you racist because some of them are mexican?
     
Thorzdad
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Jan 18, 2018, 08:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by BLAZE_MkIV View Post
If you hate all poor people does that make you racist because some of them are mexican?
No, that would simply make you classist.

Now, if you hated all brown poor people only, or believed that white poor people have just had bad luck, but the brown poors are poor because they’re lazy and just want free food and money, then, yeah, you’re a racist.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jan 18, 2018, 08:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by BLAZE_MkIV View Post
But we've seen him acting badly toward other white people too.
I thought this was parody, but apparently it's not. Does being racist somehow mean you're only nice to white people?

Call me crazy, but a racist turning out to be an asshole in general seems like the less surprising option.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jan 18, 2018, 08:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
If we go back to when Trump announced his candidacy, my argument then wasn’t Trump isn’t a racist, but that he’s racist well within the parameters of conservative, old, rich, white people.
Apologies because your argument does sound familiar.

Originally Posted by subego View Post
If forced to translate this into binary, either racist or not-racist, the question becomes where the line is drawn.

My approach to this isn’t particularly philosophical. I draw the line at whether what’s under consideration is salvageable. The issue with this group is they’re isolated and out of touch. I consider that salvageable, and has thus not crossed the line.
Doesn't the old part make them less salvageable?

Originally Posted by subego View Post
Trump himself may be unsalvageable, but this has nothing to do with belonging to that group, it’s due to him being a man-child.
Would you disagree that his actions as president superseded the 'run-of-the-mill' racism of a 'conservative, old, rich, white' person? That his actions that affect people of color are well outside the parameters we're used to from the GOP?
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jan 18, 2018, 08:47 PM
 
Is [Karl Higbie] Racist?

http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/18/politi...dio/index.html
"I told this story the other day on my show. Somebody who lives in my condo association that has five kids, and it's her and her husband with the five kids and the mother, the grandmother of the kids, and they don't have jobs, they're there all the time -- I bet you can guess what color they are -- and they have no job," he said.
"Only one person was actually cordial to me," Higbie said. "Every other black person was rude. They wanted me to either load the wood, completely split it for them or some sort of you know assistance in labor. Now, mind you the ad was for free firewood, come take it all you want. And I believe that this translates directly into the culture that is breeding this welfare and the high percentage of people on welfare in the black race. It's a lax of morality."
"We're promoting birth control to a black woman because of the incredibly high rate of children born out of wedlock that are under-cared for or not cared for at all. The taxpayers are tired of supporting government checks going to these people who think that breeding is a form of employment. I'm sorry if black people are the majority of the targeted audience. They are, statistically they are."
Higbie, a former Navy SEAL and conservative media personality, was a surrogate for Trump during the 2016 presidential campaign, appearing on cable news and serving as the spokesman for the Trump-aligned Great America PAC. He was appointed to the Corporation for National and Community Service (CNCS) in 2017 to direct the public image and messaging of the federal department that manages millions of Americans in volunteer services like AmeriCorps and Senior Corps.
 
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jan 19, 2018, 12:54 AM
 
Is This Racist?
https://twitter.com/FoxNews/status/954163554181140480
.@MarkSteynOnline on DACA: "In Arizona, a majority of the grade school children now are Hispanic. That means Arizona's future is as a Hispanic society. That means in effect, the border has moved north." #Tucker
     
Thorzdad
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Jan 19, 2018, 09:55 AM
 
Is This Racist?

.@MarkSteynOnline on DACA: "In Arizona, a majority of the grade school children now are Hispanic. That means Arizona's future is as a Hispanic society. That means in effect, the border has moved north." #Tucker
Racist as hell.
His statement might have passed muster had he stopped with the line about school kids (whether it's an accurate statement, though, is another matter.)

But, when he went forward with the statement about Arizona's future, which implies the future is being stolen or derailed from what its future should be (*COUGH*white*COUGH) by these others, and then topped it off with the border statement, which denies any Hispanic being capable of being a US citizen, he drove right off the "I'm a big, ugly racist" cliff.
     
subego
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Jan 20, 2018, 04:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Apologies because your argument does sound familiar.

Doesn't the old part make them less salvageable?


Would you disagree that his actions as president superseded the 'run-of-the-mill' racism of a 'conservative, old, rich, white' person? That his actions that affect people of color are well outside the parameters we're used to from the GOP?
(In reverse order)

Not really. Trump’s “pillars of racism” are mainstream Republican policy. The GOP always had a cop boner, disliked illegal immigrants, and (in this century) picked a fight with Islam.


I think the old part makes it more difficult, but not impossible. Perhaps incorrectly, I consider Newt to be the poster child for this group. I consider him someone who isn’t entirely calcified.


No apologies necessary!

It’s my fault if I lose sight of my own argument.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jan 20, 2018, 05:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Not really. Trump’s “pillars of racism” are mainstream Republican policy. The GOP always had a cop boner, disliked illegal immigrants, and (in this century) picked a fight with Islam.
This is where I've been getting frustrated. While you can argue, yes, the underlying sentiment may be the same, it's stark that their actions and rhetoric are not.

You say the GOP has always disliked illegal immigrants. However Ronald Reagan famously gave amnesty. George W Bush supported the Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act of 2007 which had a path to citizenship. Trump has called Mexicans rapists, argues immigration is a scam for countries to dump unwanted citizens here, wants a wall which is essentially a symbolic middle finger to Mexico, has cranked up ICE actions, deported non-criminals, separated children from their parents at the border, cancelled DACA, and is, at best, inconsistent on a legislative fix for DACA and a path for citizenship.

You say the GOP has always picked a fight from Islam. But in the face of the worst terrorist act perpetrated on American soil, Bush fought against hateful rhetoric against Muslims. A muslim ban in 2001 would have made more emotional sense than one in 2017. Bush was careless about civilian deaths in Iraq. Trump encouraged them during the campaign. I'd also remind you, Trump is a birther, which is decidedly not mainstream Republican policy. He said Obama founded ISIS.

Trump is not remotely in the same ballpark as his republican predecessors.
( Last edited by The Final Dakar; Jan 20, 2018 at 06:09 PM. )
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jan 20, 2018, 06:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
Racist as hell.
His statement might have passed muster had he stopped with the line about school kids (whether it's an accurate statement, though, is another matter.)

But, when he went forward with the statement about Arizona's future, which implies the future is being stolen or derailed from what its future should be (*COUGH*white*COUGH) by these others, and then topped it off with the border statement, which denies any Hispanic being capable of being a US citizen, he drove right off the "I'm a big, ugly racist" cliff.
I mean, I think it goes past racism right into white supremacism. He's arguing that American hispanics are somehow less American.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jan 20, 2018, 06:13 PM
 
Three-fer incoming:
https://twitter.com/KenDilanianNBC/s...97127618256903
Wow, @LindseyGrahamSC just called @SenTomCotton "the Steve King of the Senate." On @MSNBC with @GarrettHaake
How would you rate Steve King and Tom Cotton, as racists?

---

Given he doesn't push back on Steyr's comments and a pattern of other 'troubling' guests, is [Tucker Carlson's Show] Racist?
     
subego
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Jan 21, 2018, 02:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
This is where I've been getting frustrated. While you can argue, yes, the underlying sentiment may be the same, it's stark that their actions and rhetoric are not.

You say the GOP has always disliked illegal immigrants. However Ronald Reagan famously gave amnesty. George W Bush supported the Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act of 2007 which had a path to citizenship. Trump has called Mexicans rapists, argues immigration is a scam for countries to dump unwanted citizens here, wants a wall which is essentially a symbolic middle finger to Mexico, has cranked up ICE actions, deported non-criminals, separated children from their parents at the border, cancelled DACA, and is, at best, inconsistent on a legislative fix for DACA and a path for citizenship.

You say the GOP has always picked a fight from Islam. But in the face of the worst terrorist act perpetrated on American soil, Bush fought against hateful rhetoric against Muslims. A muslim ban in 2001 would have made more emotional sense than one in 2017. Bush was careless about civilian deaths in Iraq. Trump encouraged them during the campaign. I'd also remind you, Trump is a birther, which is decidedly not mainstream Republican policy. He said Obama founded ISIS.

Trump is not remotely in the same ballpark as his republican predecessors.
I used a little hyperbole with “always”, but I stand behind my general sentiment.

Yes, we can go back 25 years and find a different Republican Party.

In that 25 years the only predecessor was W. His own party told him to take his pro-immigration stance and shove it up his ass. Yes W urged restraint towards Muslims, while launching a literal “get me, I’m a ****in Templar” crusade.

As for the birther thing, Hillary took that dump on the racetrack.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jan 25, 2018, 11:30 PM
 
Sorry, I've been avoiding this thread because the Mueller/Trump news has been constant this week. Will try for this weekend.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jan 30, 2018, 11:26 PM
 
I feel like your answer glossed over most of my points regarding Trump.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I used a little hyperbole with “always”, but I stand behind my general sentiment.

Yes, we can go back 25 years and find a different Republican Party.

In that 25 years the only predecessor was W. His own party told him to take his pro-immigration stance and shove it up his ass. Yes W urged restraint towards Muslims, while launching a literal “get me, I’m a ****in Templar” crusade.
He launched a revenge war, which wasn't about muslims but about his dad.


Originally Posted by subego View Post
As for the birther thing, Hillary took that dump on the racetrack.
This is a cop-out. The birther thing was revived by conservatives. They took it from Hillary, nursed it, gave it HGH and trained it for war.


Originally Posted by subego View Post
Yes, we can go back 25 years and find a different Republican Party.
So which republican party are you claiming Trump reflects? The one from 25 years ago or the one from now?
     
subego
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Jan 31, 2018, 03:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
So which republican party are you claiming Trump reflects? The one from 25 years ago or the one from now?
If this is a serious question, I’m going to have to throw in the towel and admit bridging the communication abyss which separates us requires more effort than I can give.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Feb 3, 2018, 06:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
If this is a serious question, I’m going to have to throw in the towel and admit bridging the communication abyss which separates us requires more effort than I can give.
It's not a communication abyss its a reality abyss. I can't fathom how a guy who has let ICE run rampant in ways we haven't dreamed is "run-of-the-mill" racist to you.

How is someone who said there are 'very fine people' among the white supremacist protesters in Charlottesville just your average old man racist?

The only way your reality makes sense is if you're comparing him to racists now.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Mar 8, 2018, 08:18 PM
 
Is the term Globalist racist?
     
OreoCookie
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Mar 8, 2018, 09:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Is the term Globalist racist?
In some circles terms are used in a particular way, where globalist is code for “global Jewish conspiracy”. Or where names of Jews are put in three brackets. That doesn't make brackets racist, but the way they are used are.
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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Mar 8, 2018, 10:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
In some circles terms are used in a particular way, where globalist is code for “global Jewish conspiracy”. Or where names of Jews are put in three brackets. That doesn't make brackets racist, but the way they are used are.
Is there anywhere that uses it in a non-racist manner nowadays?

Would it be fair to say that:

A. Its origin was as a 'dogwhistle' to obscure anti-semetic opinion
B. It's increasing use in the political lexicon reflects that dog-whistle

?
     
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Mar 8, 2018, 10:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Is there anywhere that uses it in a non-racist manner nowadays?
More importantly than focussing on the word itself, we should tear off that fig leaf that is the difference between their use of the word and the original meaning, and focus what these racists actually say. When someone uses globalist (or an emoji of the globe bracketing someone's name), then what they mean by this is racist and we should call that out. Focussing on the word feels to me like acting like the Chinese automated internet censoring filter: they will just find a new, innocuous keyword. Similarly, some keywords may fade over time, e. g. bourgeois was also once another word for “the Jewish conspiracy that controls the world”, but has lost that meaning for many.
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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Mar 8, 2018, 10:36 PM
 
Maybe it would help you if I posted what prompted the question:


How do you read that? How do you think it should be read?
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Mar 8, 2018, 10:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Focussing on the word feels to me like acting like the Chinese automated internet censoring filter: they will just find a new, innocuous keyword.
Don't racist dog-whistles deserve to be called out? Saying they'll find new dog-whistles seems like a poor reason not to point out veiled racism.
     
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Mar 9, 2018, 01:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Don't racist dog-whistles deserve to be called out? Saying they'll find new dog-whistles seems like a poor reason not to point out veiled racism.
Isn’t that exactly what I said? The only difference is that I would like to force people to say what they mean when they say “globalists” or use other words that have become code for something else. So instead of focusing on the word, ask Mulvaney WTF he actually means by “globalist” here.
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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Mar 9, 2018, 10:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Isn’t that exactly what I said? The only difference is that I would like to force people to say what they mean when they say “globalists” or use other words that have become code for something else. So instead of focusing on the word, ask Mulvaney WTF he actually means by “globalist” here.
Okay, I didn't catch that you meant you wanted journalists to call them out. I'd love to see that too, but I think places where it can be effectively done are pretty few. An inquiry to Mulvaney will not pin him down. You have to catch him in person. And nowadays the standard rebuttal if you explain the anti-semetic connotation is for it be called fake news.

Anyway, I think Mulvaney's statement is pretty galling because if you replace 'globalist' with 'Jew', it reads exactly the same, only blunter.

(Also, it's another argument for diversity. Tea Partier thinks Jews ok after working with him!)
     
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Mar 22, 2018, 05:58 PM
 
We're the bombings in Austin racially motivated?
     
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Mar 23, 2018, 10:57 AM
 
If the two white guys who were hit were a mistake, maybe (but it seems like a sidewalk tripwire is not a very precise targeting device)
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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May 14, 2018, 09:16 PM
 
http://www.wbtv.com/story/38154221/f...litical-caucus
A large number of key positions in local leadership across Charlotte and Mecklenburg County are now held by African-Americans.

The Queen City has an African American mayor, and the heads of the county commission and school boards are also black. For some of those positions, it is the first time someone who is black has held that job, but there is a new level of scrutiny coming from former North Carolina Governor Pat McCrory.

“All primaries are then determined by the Black Political Caucus, a small group of individuals,” McCrory said on his morning talk show on News Talk 1110 WBT Radio.

That analysis comes one day after Spencer Merriweather was elected to District Attorney and Garry McFadden won the sheriff’s race. It is the first time two African Americans have been elected to those offices in Mecklenburg County.

"Within that party, we now see that the Black Political Caucus is the major influencer in who wins the Democratic primary," McCrory told WBTV.

McCrory says he's looking for balance.

"I'm worried about the segregated aspects of Charlotte-Mecklenburg politics, and lack of diversity we might have," McCrory said.
This doesn't count as a dog-whistle. This is straight-up racist.
     
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May 15, 2018, 11:18 AM
 
Let me guess, she has evolved on the issue.

     
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Jun 24, 2018, 03:16 PM
 
https://apnews.com/1da389a535684a5f9d0da74081c242f3
The U.S. government agency that oversees immigration applications is launching an office that will focus on identifying Americans who are suspected of cheating to get their citizenship and seek to strip them of it.
Until now, the agency has pursued cases as they arose but not through a coordinated effort, Cissna said. He said he hopes the agency’s new office in Los Angeles will be running by next year but added that investigating and referring cases for prosecution will likely take longer.

“We finally have a process in place to get to the bottom of all these bad cases and start denaturalizing people who should not have been naturalized in the first place,” Cissna said. “What we’re looking at, when you boil it all down, is potentially a few thousand cases.”
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jul 2, 2018, 11:49 PM
 


Just another nail in the Ron Paul is racist coffin for me, but putting it in here for other voices to chime in.

     
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Jul 3, 2018, 11:38 AM
 
From the same cartoonist:

     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jul 3, 2018, 12:48 PM
 
It should be noted that the heads in Paul's tweet were photoshopped in. So he posted something modified to be super racist.
     
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Jul 3, 2018, 12:58 PM
 
The artist is also the one who did the trump surfing the blue wave.
     
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Jul 3, 2018, 11:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
The artist is also the one who did the trump surfing the blue wave.
This one?
     
subego
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Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
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Jul 4, 2018, 09:37 PM
 
Are you trolling with the Q sig?
     
Chongo
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
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Jul 4, 2018, 11:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Are you trolling with the Q sig?
Who, me?

     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
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Jul 5, 2018, 12:15 AM
 
I know Garrison is trolling.
     
 
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