[s o l i d s t e e l]

Not to dump Dreamweaver and buy GoLive.

I'm fed up of waiting for Dreamweaver.

Anyone using GL6 yet - and what is the speed like?

[chris v]

My GoLive 6.0 upgrade is coming next-day air!

I'll fill you in tomorrow.

CV

[MacAgent]

The only reason I use Dreamweaver for some things is for a few things with tables. GoLive is better for everything else, especially if you use a lot of Adobe products.

[Mediaman_12]

GoLive + Works seamlesly with other Adobe Products (& file types), Portable site file, OSX Version Available NOW.
- Can wright overly large and complex Javascript code (rollovers etc.) if not setup & used correctly.
Dreamweaver + Integrates with other Macromedia apps, wright's simpler tighter code, has appeared as the industry standard (especially on the Win side),
- Non portable site file, no OSX version around (not even leaked Betas).

The sole reason I have not bought Go LIve for personal use (we bought over 100 licenses at work) is that I do not want to have to spend time learning another peice of software to accomplish the same thing I can do without little though using another.

It's similar to why I don't use Windows....the software should aid you in accomplishing your goals, not stand in your way. Right now, Go Live would stand in my way until I learned to use it at a high level.

Also, I am nowhere near able to dump classic, so X compatibility is a luxury, butnot a neccessity. If Dreamweaver was the only thing holding me back, I might reconsider.

[KidRed]

I disagree with some of the opinions mainly because I use Adobe apps but prefer DreamWeaver over Golive. However, I'm faced with the simple decision, buy GoLive for X now and kiss clissic goodbye and get DreamWeaver when it comes out. Or stick with DreamWeaver in Classic till it comes out.

It would be an easier decision if I knew when DW for X was coming out.

[Mediaman_12]

Originally posted by KidRed:
<STRONG>I disagree with some of the opinions mainly because I use Adobe apps but prefer DreamWeaver over Golive. However, I'm faced with the simple decision, buy GoLive for X now and kiss clissic goodbye and get DreamWeaver when it comes out. Or stick with DreamWeaver in Classic till it comes out.

It would be an easier decision if I knew when DW for X was coming out.</STRONG>

If You use all the other Adobe Apps (and don't use Fireworks) You should really try switching. GL X is far better than the previous versions, (my old Company was an Official Adobe GoLive Beta tester) The ability of GoLive to inport all the other Adobe Formats (ill & Photoshop you can the edit the type & apply layer FX in PhotoShop files, save them multiple optimised files, & GoLive will remember the changes you have made to that version of the PSE file) and be able to optimise & slice the graphics 100% within GoLive (not the half cocked method used in Older versions) is it's Killer ability.

[ 02-26-2002: Message edited by: Mediaman_12 ]

[ 02-26-2002: Message edited by: Mediaman_12 ]

[godzookie2k]

Originally posted by KidRed:
<STRONG>It would be an easier decision if I knew when DW for X was coming out.</STRONG>

summer, 2002*. Why the hell anyone would want GoLive's bloated, crappy code in their sites boggles my mind.


Nick.

(*yes this is a fact)

[KidRed]

Originally posted by Mediaman_12:
<STRONG>


If You use all the other Adobe Apps (and don't use Fireworks) You should really try switching. GL X is far better than the previous versions, (my old Company was an Official Adobe GoLive Beta tester) The ability of GoLive to inport all the other Adobe Formats (ill & Photoshop you can the edit the type & apply layer FX in PhotoShop files, save them multiple optimised files, & GoLive will remember the changes you have made to that version of the PSE file) and be able to optimise & slice the graphics 100% within GoLive (not the half cocked method used in Older versions) is it's Killer ability.

[ 02-26-2002: Message edited by: Mediaman_12 ]

[ 02-26-2002: Message edited by: Mediaman_12 ]</STRONG>

You can optimize and slice in GL6!?!? WTF, so you think it's worth getting then? I don't mainly do alot of intensive sites anymore, mainly slicing up graphics for sites and some linking. The client takes care of all th linking, additional pages, etc. I just do the graphics and put them onto html for presentation. Of course I do webmaster a few sites and will need the functions, but not day to day.

[dogzilla]

Originally posted by Mediaman_12:
<STRONG>GoLive ...- Can wright overly large and complex Javascript code (rollovers etc.) if not setup & used correctly.</STRONG>

Actually GoLive writes overly large and complex Javascript if it is set up & used correctly. It's only if you mess and hack it's libraries (o rimport your own) that it writes anything like compact code. And if you're going to that much trouble, you might as well just write all your own code anyway - it'll be tighter, faster, more reliable, and work on more browsers.

[KidRed]

I just tried a beta and realized why I switched to DreamWeaver. I'm sorry, but GoLive is a joke when it comes to opening a file with a lot of graphics. It took almost a full minute "Parsing html". And once open, if you switch to source code, then back to edit mode it takes the same amount of time to once again "parse html". In DreamWeaver it's instant.

Yes, I have GoLive 4 (5 was a total joke and totally unusable) and it was the same with parsing html taking forever. Why does Adobe do that? Yes, I do use some pirated apps, but was going to buy the GoLive/LiveMotion bundle and now I'm glad I didn't. I will get LiveMotion by itself and PS 7 when it comes out and stick to classic until DreamWeaver X comes out.

[Simon Mundy]

Originally posted by KidRed:
<STRONG>I just tried a beta and realized why I switched to DreamWeaver. I'm sorry, but GoLive is a joke when it comes to opening a file with a lot of graphics. It took almost a full minute "Parsing html". And once open, if you switch to source code, then back to edit mode it takes the same amount of time to once again "parse html". In DreamWeaver it's instant.

Yes, I have GoLive 4 (5 was a total joke and totally unusable) and it was the same with parsing html taking forever. Why does Adobe do that? Yes, I do use some pirated apps, but was going to buy the GoLive/LiveMotion bundle and now I'm glad I didn't. I will get LiveMotion by itself and PS 7 when it comes out and stick to classic until DreamWeaver X comes out.</STRONG>

I think I'll reserve judgement until I see the FINAL, rather than a beta. Then there's also the cost issue vs Dreamweaver...

[KidRed]

I understand it was a beta, but the beta was still doing the same thing it has been sense version 4.

DreamWeaver $299 (assuming X version about the same)
GoLive $399

And DreamWeaver is better? Easy choice for me.

Kid Red...I think a more accurate cost comparison would be Ultra Dev, at $539 (or so), vs. Go Live at $399. Take a look at the feature set of Go Live...it is much more comparable to Ultra Dev than to Dreamweaver. Go Live 6 has a full set of Server Side scripting tools (actually superior to those in Ultra Dev). Go Live also comes with a site management server, which Macromedia gets about $200 a user liscense (with a minimum of 5 lisenses) for in the form of Site Spring.

I agree, though, that Go Live is an increadible peice of garbage...I just got a chance to play around with 6 at work today and it is no better than previous egenerations in terms of usability. You just can't polish sh!t.

Let's just hope Macromedia brings Dreamweaver in line in terms of feature set and price.

[KidRed]

Originally posted by &lt;Mojo Rising&gt;:
<STRONG>Kid Red...I think a more accurate cost comparison would be Ultra Dev, at $539 (or so), vs. Go Live at $399. Take a look at the feature set of Go Live...it is much more comparable to Ultra Dev than to Dreamweaver. Go Live 6 has a full set of Server Side scripting tools (actually superior to those in Ultra Dev). Go Live also comes with a site management server, which Macromedia gets about $200 a user liscense (with a minimum of 5 lisenses) for in the form of Site Spring.

I agree, though, that Go Live is an increadible peice of garbage...I just got a chance to play around with 6 at work today and it is no better than previous egenerations in terms of usability. You just can't polish sh!t.

Let's just hope Macromedia brings Dreamweaver in line in terms of feature set and price.</STRONG>

Ah ok, but at least you agree that golive 6 looks to be a peice of crap. I can't believe they can't fix that parsing html 5 minute wait feature.

As for the other ultra dev stuff, I don't know what that contains so I guess I don't need to concern myself with it. So if others don't need the extra stuff then DreamWeaver is hands down a no brain decision.

[Riastradh]

Without wanting to sound as if I'm flaming you, I'll ask a question that has puzzled me for some time: is it really that hard to learn HTML? I learned it in a few days without much effort, and if you learn HTML then you can make your code as small as possible without having some expensive application distort it into proportions that make godzilla seem small.

[KidRed]

Originally posted by Riastradh:
<STRONG>Without wanting to sound as if I'm flaming you, I'll ask a question that has puzzled me for some time: is it really that hard to learn HTML? I learned it in a few days without much effort, and if you learn HTML then you can make your code as small as possible without having some expensive application distort it into proportions that make godzilla seem small.</STRONG>

Yes and no DreamWeaver doesn't do the coding that bad and has a clean up option, GoLive on the other hand.....

As far as doing it by hand, you go ahead and code a site by hand, when your doing the &lt;body&gt; tag I'll be done with the site. Sorry, but I want to make money, and as we all know, time is money.

Regardless of what kind of editor you use, at some point, you have to do some coding...at least when your web site expands past a page or 2. For me, products like Dreamweaver and Go Live have their greatest utility in their medium size site management capabilities. They are also pretty good for small sites with static pages. I use Dreamweaver for these purposes.

Both of these products lose their appeal altogether when you are dealing with a large (albeit usually dull) database driven websites that consists of maybe a dozen page templates that are populated by all sorts of different dynamic data.

Bottom line, though, is that there is not a WYSIWYG editor on the planet that can code more efficiently than someone with a modest knowledge of HTML. For a Mac web developer, BBEdit is an absolute neccessity and for a PC developer, I have found Homesite to be indespensible. More importantly, there is a certain zen to hand-coding.

[KidRed]

While I do find knowing code when I have an error I can check the code or add some tags to it, I have never and will never think about coding an entire page by hand, much less a site. I guess it boils down to need and individual. I have found artists tend to want the wysiwyg wheres as programmers tend to be more geared towards coding.

However, a partner of mine (PC) codes php, cgi, perl, does his websites with the above, has search engine spam scripts he wrote that dynamically calls index pages taylored for each spider, etc and yet he's the one who turned me on to DW. He uses it a lot and and at the same time can edit his pages live online because of his knowledge of code. I can as well, but only per tag basis and not as braodly as he can. Mainly, because I don't have the need to, I'm a graphic artist, not a database engineer.

I guess golive and DW weren't meant to be used for huge sites, most of those should be done professioanlly, by a programmer.

[philzilla]

Originally posted by KidRed:
<STRONG>While I do find knowing code when I have an error I can check the code or add some tags to it, I have never and will never think about coding an entire page by hand, much less a site. I guess it boils down to need and individual. I have found artists tend to want the wysiwyg wheres as programmers tend to be more geared towards coding.</STRONG>

you should try it. from scratch, a few pages. see if you can. you'll enjoy it!

i use dreamweaver when i'm in a rush. if time is on my side, i'll hand code. i just prefer it.

as for golive, about 30% of that code is uncalled for

[Simon Mundy]

Originally posted by philzilla:
<STRONG>

you should try it. from scratch, a few pages. see if you can. you'll enjoy it!

i use dreamweaver when i'm in a rush. if time is on my side, i'll hand code. i just prefer it.

as for golive, about 30% of that code is uncalled for</STRONG>

Which code? Everyone seems to talk about this bloated code that creeps into the page...

If it's Javascript you mean, then why not write your own? I would say the high proportion of people that actually care about the way your HTML and Javascript reads and parses would 'roll their own' anyway. Most other uses wouldn't give a toss!

I wouldn't say GoLive writes HTML any worse than Dreamweaver. You can customise both to output the way you like them. Both have both a source editor as well as a layout editor (now GoLive has an extra preview pane it looks more handy).

Yeah, GL5 IS buggy, but from what I've seen of GL6 it is going to be much smoother and easier to use - from both an end-result perspective and from the benefits it gives while you're using it.

Anyway, that's just me it seems

[KidRed]

Yeah, GL5 IS buggy, but from what I've seen of GL6 it is going to be much smoother and easier to use - from both an end-result perspective and from the benefits it gives while you're using it.

If you have Golive (doesn't have to be 6, 4+ will do) then open a 80k + page and see how long it takes to parse (just to open). Then while in layout mode, click on source mode. Then type something, or make simple changes. Then click back on layout mode. Note how long that takes.

Then open the same file in DW, then click on the toggle source button. The source preview pane jumps down instantly. There's just no comparing speed. DW wins hands down.

Golive doesn't display marginwidth="0" in the body tag. So, basically, 95% of my sites don't view correctly in golive, I have to go to the web to preview.

My frustartion with DW being the only classic app I use had me concidering getting Golive 6, but after trying out the beta, uh huh, I'll wait for DW.

[Adam Silver]

Originally posted by philzilla:
<STRONG>

you should try it. from scratch, a few pages. see if you can. you'll enjoy it!

i use dreamweaver when i'm in a rush. if time is on my side, i'll hand code. i just prefer it.

as for golive, about 30% of that code is uncalled for</STRONG>

I think you just proved why WYSIWYG editors are necessary. Hand coding has its place, but it's a waste of time to only hand code. I know a number of places that won't hire anyone who boasts that he or she can writes all code by hand.

[Simon Mundy]

Originally posted by KidRed:
<STRONG>

If you have Golive (doesn't have to be 6, 4+ will do) then open a 80k + page and see how long it takes to parse (just to open). Then while in layout mode, click on source mode. Then type something, or make simple changes. Then click back on layout mode. Note how long that takes.

Then open the same file in DW, then click on the toggle source button. The source preview pane jumps down instantly. There's just no comparing speed. DW wins hands down.

Golive doesn't display marginwidth="0" in the body tag. So, basically, 95% of my sites don't view correctly in golive, I have to go to the web to preview.

My frustartion with DW being the only classic app I use had me concidering getting Golive 6, but after trying out the beta, uh huh, I'll wait for DW.</STRONG>

I never said GL was quick

But the problem with marginwidth='0'??? Golive 5/6 both have an option to set the page margins to 0 automatically for you (i.e. setting marginwidths, etc to 0) or back to defaults. It boths previews it and parses it correctly! I don't understand the problem.

But hey, I'm not going to twist yer arm. That's the beauty of choice! I agree that DW did not get to be the web developer's tool of choice without having some pretty good strong points.

Have you ever tried Freeway from Softpress? If you just want to create a web page without thinking about HTML code, this tool is much, much better than GL or DW. It works like any DTP application. And it's powerful, too. There's support for JavaScript actions, dynamic pages using PHP (and soon ASP) etc. The OS X version will be out in a few days.

[MojoRising022]

Is there a WYSIWG editor on the planet that handles stylesheets in a half way intuitive manner? If I recall directly, in this respect, both Go Live and Dreamweaver are trainwrecks.

[awcopus]

GoLive's CSS editing is incredibly intuitive. Easier than setting up style sheets in Quark.

I like GoLive's interface better than DW's, in general. I know that DW makes better code. I've done jobs that pleased clients using either app.

I think the market speaks for itself. Dreamweaver is more robust and makes cleaner code in general. But is the difference enough? In some cases, yes, but in most, not really.

That said, the value of being able to be in OS X full time is worth it to me. So, when GoLive arrives early next week, I'll be using it with Illustrator and Photoshop (late beta) FULL TIME in X. If I need to massage or supplement the code, BBEdit's there for me.

Of course, I will evaluate DW when it comes out for X, and make the move back if I need to. The notion that one can't pick up either of these programs pretty quickly is sort of silly. Learning curves come into play for Perl and Java. Both DW and GW are cakewalks.

Just my opinion.

[starman]

I tried DW. Hated it in about 30 seconds. Bad CSS tools and the ftp integration is very NON-intuitive. I'll stick with GL.

Mike

[Riastradh]

Originally posted by &lt;Know-It-All&gt;:
<STRONG>Bottom line, though, is that there is not a WYSIWYG editor on the planet that can code more efficiently than someone with a modest knowledge of HTML. For a Mac web developer, BBEdit is an absolute neccessity and for a PC developer, I have found Homesite to be indespensible. More importantly, there is a certain zen to hand-coding.</STRONG>

Actually, I have never done any HTML coding with BBEdit &mdash; I find no need to, as I can make the code fine with Emacs/XEmacs. But I have nothing against BBEdit; &mdash; I think it's a very good tool, and it has plenty of good features to make the actual coding a lot easier.

[KidRed]

Originally posted by Simon Mundy:
<STRONG>

I never said GL was quick

But the problem with marginwidth='0'??? Golive 5/6 both have an option to set the page margins to 0 automatically for you (i.e. setting marginwidths, etc to 0) or back to defaults. It boths previews it and parses it correctly! I don't understand the problem.

But hey, I'm not going to twist yer arm. That's the beauty of choice! I agree that DW did not get to be the web developer's tool of choice without having some pretty good strong points.</STRONG>

If I open one of my sites (most of which have a 0 margin) GL doesn't display the graphics with a 0 margin, but the defualt of what 10 is it? Anyways, it's just one of many gripes I have, still waiting for DW.

You will find that the parsing issue is not an issue in the Final GoLive 6...not in some swiped beta. The GM is quite speedy even in X.