[Back up 15 and punt]

Originally posted by JKT:
<STRONG>

My bad.

Anyway, sp86 solves the problem... but I had to edit out two lines in my com.omniroup.OmniWeb.plist file before it would work properly so if anyone else is having the same problem do this:

1) Quit OmniWeb
2) open the com.omniroup.OmniWeb.plist file in TextEdit and find the following two concurrent strings:

&lt;key&gt;BookmarkPage&lt;/key&gt;
&lt;string&gt;file:///~/Library/Application Support/OmniWeb/Bookmarks.html&lt;/string&gt;

2) Delete those two lines and save the .plist
3) Delete the ~/Library/ApplicationSupport folder (recover your bookmark file if you have altered it at all since installing sp85)\
4) Restart OW sp86

Prior to doing this sp86 was still creating the ~/Library/ApplicationSupport folder for me, even though I had deleted it.</STRONG>

This worked but now I can't customize the toolbar. Is anybody else having this problem?
javascript:x()

[Sharky K.]

sneakypeek 87 fixed the problems you have?

[cpac]

Originally posted by Sharky K.:
<STRONG>sneakypeek 87 fixed the problems you have?</STRONG>

Yep.

No more ApplicationSupport folder.

[Spirit_VW]

(edit: people are)

[ 05-23-2002: Message edited by: Spirit_VW ]

[Sharky K.]

the speed of rendering is also not my concern. When OmniWeb renders you can't do anything else with almost all computers.

[cpac]

Originally posted by Sharky K.:
<STRONG>the speed of rendering is also not my concern. When OmniWeb renders you can't do anything else with almost all computers.</STRONG>

What are you talking about? I have a TiBook 500 (certainly not the fastest thing out there) and OS X remains very responsive regardless of what OW is doing (not that OW is rendering for a long time to begin with).

Are you saying you would rather OW limited itself to (say) 50% of the cpu and took twice as long to render?

[starfleetX]

Originally posted by Spirit_VW:
<STRONG>I keep hearing from various people about how slow OW is compared to Chimera, but I'm going to have to agree with Guy Incognito here - OW ain't no slouch.</STRONG>

Sure, on small, plain pages it "ain't no slouch" but why don't you try some larger, more complex ones where the Gecko engine kicks the crap outta Omni? Furthermore, the modem is probably a major bottleneck on your end, not just the browser.

Here are a few I just picked out:

http://forums.appleinsider.com/cgi-b...c&f=6&t=001069
chimera smooth off == 4 (2 seconds downloading, 2 seconds rendering)
chimera smooth on == 6 (2 seconds downloading, 4 seconds rendering)
omniweb 4.1 sp 87 == 8 (2 seconds downloading, 6 seconds rendering)

http://www.versiontracker.com/morein...atings=&db=mac
chimera smooth off == 18 (8 seconds downloading, 10 seconds rendering)
chimera smooth on == 25 (8 seconds downloading, 17 seconds rendering)
omniweb 4.1 sp 87 == 48 (8 seconds downloading, 40 seconds rendering)

http://features.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=32075&threshold=-1 &commentsort=0&tid=97&mode=flat&startat=50&pid= 0
chimera smooth off == 3 (1 second downloading, 2 seconds rendering)
chimera smooth on == 6 (1 second downloading, 5 seconds rendering)
omniweb 4.1 sp 87 == 8 (1 second downloading, 7 seconds rendering)

http://remix.overclocked.org
omniweb 4.1 sp 87 == 0... oh wait... OmniWeb doesn't like remixes so it's going to just refuse to load my page!

----------

I could go on, but I won't. I know when to use OmniWeb and when not to. OmniWeb is fine for casual browsing, but when trying to load any sites with CSS, DHTML, or even table-heavy pages I have to stand by Chimera (or Mozilla). Once the Omni Group finishes up the fabled 5.0 engine that's supposed to give us CSS and faster tables, I'll probably kick Chimera to the Trash. Until that day, though, I'll probably be using them 50/50.

[ 05-22-2002: Message edited by: starfleetX ]

[Zadian]

Originally posted by Spirit_VW:
<STRONG>I keep hearing from various people about how slow OW is compared to Chimera,</STRONG>

OmniWeb is slow in rendering tables. All the websites you mentioned are without tables (or don't have that much).

OmniWeb renders webpages without tables fast.

All the websites starfleetX tested make extensive use of tables and those pages take a long time in OmniWeb to get rendered.

[Sharky K.]

Originally posted by cpac:
<STRONG>

What are you talking about? I have a TiBook 500 (certainly not the fastest thing out there) and OS X remains very responsive regardless of what OW is doing (not that OW is rendering for a long time to begin with).

Are you saying you would rather OW limited itself to (say) 50% of the cpu and took twice as long to render?</STRONG>

ever opened 5 pages here on the macnn forum at the same time??? and then you must try the scrolling while omniweb is rendering/loading

[ 05-22-2002: Message edited by: Sharky K. ]

[cutterjohn]

Originally posted by Zadian:
<STRONG>

OmniWeb is slow in rendering tables. All the websites you mentioned are without tables (or don't have that much).

OmniWeb renders webpages without tables fast.

All the websites starfleetX tested make extensive use of tables and those pages take a long time in OmniWeb to get rendered.</STRONG>

er, we had this discussion a while back(April?) and there is a test link to a LARGE table which OW at the time took minutes to render.

Current OW builds now render large tables at a more reasonable rate, but I look forward to parity with Mozilla/Chimera/everyone else in OW5, along with greater "feature" support.

Also note the rendering speed of dual processor machines, they were on parity with every other browser, but it IS unfortunate that the rendering engine of OW is poorly written that it requires multiple processors to achieve this parity.

[Gul Banana]

Originally posted by Sharky K.:
<STRONG>

ever opened 5 pages here on the macnn forum at the same time??? and then you must try the scrolling while omniweb is rendering/loading

[ 05-22-2002: Message edited by: Sharky K. ]</STRONG>

Yes. I do so regularly. It scrolls fine, using the scroll wheel on my mouse.

[Spirit_VW]

Originally posted by starfleetX:
<STRONG>Sure, on small, plain pages it "ain't no slouch" but why don't you try some larger, more complex ones where the Gecko engine kicks the crap outta Omni? Furthermore, the modem is probably a major bottleneck on your end, not just the browser.
</STRONG>

We'll just have to agree to disagree, Starfleet. My only point is that on my Mac using my connection visiting sites I go to regularly, OW is comparable to Chimera in speed. Any problems OW has with that mix site you mention do not affect me, since I have no desire to go there regularly. So, please do use Chimera or any other browser over OW if it meets your needs better. I will be happy for everybody who makes that decision. I will sing the praises of that decision to the high rafters and across the mountaintops and through the shady valleys filled with waterfalls and happy rainbows and little pink bunnies and small children playing in the glen yelling "CHURALEE! CHURALEE! IT'S SAINT BARNABUS McMALLEY DAY! CHURALEE!" and puffy clouds all over the sky. My point is that from my perspective on my Mac, OW is the better option. It might not be for you. And that's okay. In the end, it's just a browser. And opinion. Mine's right, yours is right, let's get along. I won't be adding to another browser flame war, and I didn't mean to try to set one off. Peace, brother?

[cpac]

Originally posted by Sharky K.:
<STRONG>

ever opened 5 pages here on the macnn forum at the same time??? and then you must try the scrolling while omniweb is rendering/loading

[ 05-22-2002: Message edited by: Sharky K. ]</STRONG>

Unfortunately I'm only able to read one thread at a time, so no. (Although I will occasionally have threads open or loading in the background - no problem there)

Also, I have my preferences set to not display the page until the contents are entirely loaded. I've personally found this to make OW feel much more responsive: when the page appears, I can scroll like a madman and OW keeps up 'cause it's not trying to add in new table cells or anything.

[OAW]

Originally posted by cpac:
<STRONG>

Unfortunately I'm only able to read one thread at a time, so no. (Although I will occasionally have threads open or loading in the background - no problem there)

Also, I have my preferences set to not display the page until the contents are entirely loaded. I've personally found this to make OW feel much more responsive: when the page appears, I can scroll like a madman and OW keeps up 'cause it's not trying to add in new table cells or anything.</STRONG>

Indeed you are correct. It seems counter-intuitive, but OW is more responsive when you tell it not display the page until it is completely loaded. One would think that seeing information appear on the screen ASAP would give the impression of being "faster" ... but with OW it is the opposite. If I'm not mistaken, I believe the Omni guys have stated that the rendering engine and the GUI have to use the same thread in the 4.x architecture. So it seems to me that this is the reason why it seems more responsive when it doesn't try to load and render at the same time. I find that if the page starts to display before it's done loading/rendering ... I'm tempted to start scrolling or otherwise navigating the page. But since these GUI actions are running in the same thread that is already being used to load and render at the same ... things get bogged down. OTOH, when I set the preference to not load and render at the same time ... things are very smooth. The page displays faster ... and once it does it scrolls and navigates without any appreciable delay.

Just my 2 cents ....

OAW

[Don Pickett]

All this dick measuring about OW's speed aside, anyone else have problems with sp87 rendering incorrectly? I couldn't see Versiontracker's "download now" link. Went back to sp82.

[Back up 15 and punt]

Has anybody found SP87 unstable. I can't keep up and it dies constantly.

[Mike Pither]

I think that it is true that the more windows you have open in Omniweb the slower it gets, I use the right click open behind current window trick a lot (I once had 42 windows open at once and it was really slow until they had all finished loading then it speeded up a bit. HOWEVER with Chimera / navigator 2,7 there is no equivalent to loading in background with or without the tabs yet which is pain (in Mozilla there is the option you can set to get the tabs to open in the background) and with more than 3 tabs open Chimera is also very slow with the spinning beachball being visible for a long long time when I open or try to swap tabs. It is unusable on my system with more than 7-8 tabs open (much slower than Omniweb with with 7-8 windows. Turning off the font smoothing helps but then it all looks ugly. Still as prototype it shows a lot of promise and I actually prefer its look to that of Omniweb

[cpac]

Originally posted by Don Pickett:
<STRONG>All this dick measuring about OW's speed aside, anyone else have problems with sp87 rendering incorrectly? I couldn't see Versiontracker's "download now" link. Went back to sp82.</STRONG>

It appears just fine in sp88. (and I width problem I was getting with MacNN's main page (cutting off the edge of the right hand column) seems to be fixed as well.

[dont.wanna.tell]

Yehaw, 88 fixed my problems with VersionTracker as well

cu Martin

[Sharky K.]

I think they also fixed the submit button =&gt; black bug

[JKT]

Originally posted by Mike Pither:
<STRONG>I think that it is true that the more windows you have open in Omniweb the slower it gets, I use the right click open behind current window trick a lot (I once had 42 windows open at once and it was really slow until they had all finished loading then it speeded up a bit. HOWEVER with Chimera / navigator 2,7 there is no equivalent to loading in background with or without the tabs yet which is pain (in Mozilla there is the option you can set to get the tabs to open in the background) and with more than 3 tabs open Chimera is also very slow with the spinning beachball being visible for a long long time when I open or try to swap tabs. It is unusable on my system with more than 7-8 tabs open (much slower than Omniweb with with 7-8 windows. Turning off the font smoothing helps but then it all looks ugly. Still as prototype it shows a lot of promise and I actually prefer its look to that of Omniweb</STRONG>

I think having 42 windows open will slow any browser in OS X as the main impact on speed in that case will be due to the nature of Quartz rendering and the Window Manager sucking up CPU. If you minimise the majority to the Dock, it will speed up again. However, rendering 42 pages at once will obviously slow down OW significantly.

FWIW, sp88 is meant to cure the long standing (since early sp eighties) Table bug at numerous sites. If you continue to have problems with it, be sure to mail OW about the site where it is occurring. So far it seems to have cured the issues I was having e.g. at webmail.mac.com and macosxhints.com

[ 05-23-2002: Message edited by: JKT ]

[Sharky K.]

OmniWeb acts strange with javascript. sometimes it does not work.
http://62.108.6.218/kunst/

but when I enter an other site an go back it works

I have seen this before with other websites but not this much.

[Krypton]

Originally posted by Sharky K.:
<STRONG>I think they also fixed the submit button =&gt; black bug</STRONG>

I wish... Looks like they continue to fix things that I've never noticed. Sp 88 feels dog slow on my iMac as if it's got some huge memory leak problem.

Back to playing with Chimera for me

[Guy Incognito]

Originally posted by Krypton:
<STRONG>

Back to playing with Chimera for me </STRONG>

Yes, you go do that.

[davidb224]

Originally posted by Krypton:
<STRONG>Sp 88 feels dog slow on my iMac as if it's got some huge memory leak problem</STRONG>

Not on my G4.

Sp88 is very quick on dual processors....

[cpac]

Originally posted by Krypton:
<STRONG>

I wish... Looks like they continue to fix things that I've never noticed. Sp 88 feels dog slow on my iMac as if it's got some huge memory leak problem.

Back to playing with Chimera for me </STRONG>

Yes, damn them for not making it faster for *your* iMac. (Plenty fast on my parents'). Couldn't possibly be something else you're doing with your machine.

[Spirit_VW]

Originally posted by Don Pickett:
<STRONG>All this dick measuring about OW's speed aside</STRONG>

rg!!!!!

[Mr. Blur]

for those still keeping score, we are up to sp89 now.....

[Joost]

I'd try this myself but I'm away from my Mac.

Can someone with the latest SP check excite.com, specifically how OmniWeb renders the navigation bar at the top of the page.

The versions of OmniWeb I've used don't render it "properly" and often place another page element right on top of it. Any change?

Thanks

[benh57]

Originally posted by Joost:
<STRONG>I'd try this myself but I'm away from my Mac.

Can someone with the latest SP check excite.com, specifically how OmniWeb renders the navigation bar at the top of the page.

The versions of OmniWeb I've used don't render it "properly" and often place another page element right on top of it. Any change?

Thanks</STRONG>

Looks fine in 89.


I just had a crash of sp89 while rendering slashdot, though.

[Joost]

Originally posted by benh57:
<STRONG>

Looks fine in 89.


I just had a crash of sp89 while rendering slashdot, though.</STRONG>

Thanks for the Excite check. Hope the Slashdot crash was a one-off.

[shortcipher]

going back to Omniweb with sp89!

scrolling speed seems much improved now, although this may be to do with the fact that I am running my monitor in 16bit...

anyway, Ive got tired of Chimeras inability to download files properly, even though it renders like a demon, it just lacks a few of the niceties ive come to depend on, so back to OW it is, here's hoping they get it finished real soon now.

[Krypton]

Originally posted by cpac:
<STRONG>

Yes, damn them for not making it faster for *your* iMac. (Plenty fast on my parents'). Couldn't possibly be something else you're doing with your machine.</STRONG>

Well, well all looks like you took my post tooooooo seriously. I said it felt like it had a memory leak (which it may have done) - the speed is fine now.

And although Chimera is relatively fast (on slow machines with slow connections - i.e *me* ) I like the way OmniWeb is faster in reverse - Instant back

[Gregory]

I had a crash in SP87 on a site I often frequent, and I tend to load a dozen pages at a time (opening a forum, let 8-10 threads load in background) and it does not seem to impact windows or performance. The only thing that does is if I command click on URLs in the Favorites toolbar it will bog down trying to handle the menu itself.

I assume that a G4/500, 768MB, using the WinCompressX utility, but also a monitor that has high bandwidth support (200-300 MHz) so that all that video isn't bogged down..... it may not be totally due to Aqua/Quartz or video card. My B&W and Beige working off same monitor - and the beige isn't even using a PCI video card.

Netscape 7 is slow to launch but fine after that and it or Mozilla can replace IE for sites that don't work in OmniWeb.

I DO wish that OmniWeb would not launch another copy if there is one open.

[Gul Banana]

Originally posted by Gregory:
<STRONG>I DO wish that OmniWeb would not launch another copy if there is one open.</STRONG>

Since when does it do that?

[Amorph]

Originally posted by Gul Banana:
<STRONG>



Since when does it do that?</STRONG>

It can happen if you fail to unmount the disk image after installing. Until you do, there are two copies of OmniWeb.app lying around, and both can (and sometimes will) get launched.

I imagine that this behavior is not unique to OW.

[Gregory]

Nothing to do with disk image. I have a couple hard drives mounted.
Also, what if you want to keep multiple SP versions?
Which one will Internet Control Panel point to? probably the one in /Applications.

PS: MacNN forums reply dialogue boxes wouldn't "wrap to window" or something,
all thanks to the com.omnigroup.OmniWeb.plist. Odd. I had made some recommended changes to disable cascading windows and other stuff by someone at OmniGroup six months ago, and those seem to have recently interfered with OmniWeb reply dialogue behavior. I couldn't see my typing as it goes off the right side.

[ 05-24-2002: Message edited by: Gregory ]

[Hudson]

Originally posted by Gregory:
<STRONG>
Also, what if you want to keep multiple SP versions?
Which one will Internet Control Panel point to? probably the one in /Applications.</STRONG>

Correct, the Internet Control Pane will launch the copy that is in /Applications. I also keep the latest SP in the Home directory and it never interferes with the main version.

[dj247046]

OmniWeb - 4.1b7 is UP!

Download

[ac2c]

And 4.1beta7 build 410 arrives on the scene. Is this the last of the 4.1 SPs? We will see.

[Rickster]

Maybe.

[unfaded]

Originally posted by Rickster:
<STRONG>Maybe.</STRONG>

The ever-mysterious Rickster strikes again.

Man I would love to work an Omni. Do you guys need an official Omni band member? I can drum, sing, play guitar, bass, whatever! :o) or someone to do a port of something onto a TI calculator? That's about the extent of my abilities...

Or something to do with the public...I'm good with people!

...anyways, I love beta 7 :o)

[Mr. Blur]

Originally posted by unfaded:
<STRONG>

Do you guys need an official Omni band member? I can drum, sing, play guitar, bass, whatever! :o) </STRONG>

Hey, yeah.....and OmniGraffle would be such a cool name for a Seattle grunge band.....

[MrBS]

Beta 7 seems to be much faster with frames...
~BS

[oeyvind]

I can't get OW to render my own board at www.oeyvind.org/board/zboard.php?id=MacOSX correctlt since sp86 or 87... same problem in b7.

No problem when view with MSIE or Mozilla....

[Jerommeke]

ok, i don't know what makes this bug appear over all the versions, but you should try it:

1. go to www.cnn.com
2. browse to a topic overthere and let it load
3. close the window

and see: it crashes

and it has done this behaviour for a long time, and i have sent so many bug reports about it with the crashcatcher, can it be fixed please?

[Mr. Blur]

Originally posted by Jerommeke:
<STRONG>
1. go to www.cnn.com
2. browse to a topic overthere and let it load
3. close the window

and see: it crashes
</STRONG>

hmmm....i just tried it, a couple times even. no crash. tried different topics too...law, politics....no problem???

[Back up 15 and punt]

Originally posted by Mr. Blur:
<STRONG>

hmmm....i just tried it, a couple times even. no crash. tried different topics too...law, politics....no problem???</STRONG>

I had a similar problem develop when using SP 84 and above. It got so bad that I had trouble keeping OW up for more than a few pages. But one thing was consistent, it dumped every time I closed a window. It turned out that OW was corrupted in some way that I ended up purging all remnants of OW from my system. I reinstalled OW SP89 and I am now running beta7. Everything is now fine. These are the risks you take when you run beta software and I hope this information is helpful.

[benh57]

Originally posted by Back up 15 and punt:
<STRONG>It turned out that OW was corrupted in some way that I ended up purging all remnants of OW from my system. I reinstalled OW SP89 and I am now running beta7. Everything is now fine. These are the risks you take when you run beta software and I hope this information is helpful.:</STRONG>

Stop spouting this "I cleaned it up, and it worked!" nonsense. Omniweb has been crashing closing windows due to documented omniweb bugs. They were even mentioned in the freakin' release notes. It did NOT stop crashing because your purged anything.

Tip: Don't apply for a job in QA.

-B

[Jerommeke]

it's weird

I got the problem begfore i erased my whole system, �nd after it, every time, only with that site....