[Hawkeye_a]

After Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the United Nations was formed. Yet this so called �neutral� power did not do anything to impose sanctions, conduct arms inspections or anything of the like on the one country, in the history of the world, to use such weapons of mass destruction against humanity. The word that comes to mind is genocide. And yet, to this day NOT A DAMNED THING has been done to combat the threat. Bear in mind, that I�m talking about civilian casualties here�obviously the Geneva Convention does not apply here.

And now just over have a century later the trigger of the world�s largest arsenal of biological/chemical/nuclear/ and any other kind of destructive technology ever created, has been handed to a retarded Hick from Hicksville U.S.A.

�Fight for peace��.has there ever been a better oxymoron ?

[hytek]

Give me a f*cking break.

[ 03-13-2002: Message edited by: hytek ]

[Hawkeye_a]

I wonder..... i am one of the the "other" 5.7billion people on this planet, and to me there is nothing scarrier than a redneck with a nuclear arsenal and an itchy trigger finger screaming "it's coming right for me".

[shmerek]

I will second that motion for feeling a uneasy.

[The Jackalope]

I like your bigoted speak of 'rednecks'. Do say more.

By the way, does anyone here actually know where the term "redneck" come from, and why it's associated with white people from the south? I doubt most have...

[chris_h]

Originally posted by Hawkeye_a:
<STRONG>After Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the United Nations was formed. Yet this so called �neutral� power did not do anything to impose sanctions, conduct arms inspections or anything of the like on the one country, in the history of the world, to use such weapons of mass destruction against humanity. The word that comes to mind is genocide. And yet, to this day NOT A DAMNED THING has been done to combat the threat. Bear in mind, that I�m talking about civilian casualties here�obviously the Geneva Convention does not apply here.

And now just over have a century later the trigger of the world�s largest arsenal of biological/chemical/nuclear/ and any other kind of destructive technology ever created, has been handed to a retarded Hick from Hicksville U.S.A.

�Fight for peace��.has there ever been a better oxymoron ?</STRONG>

Listen up, Angsty McAngst, I'm gonna learn you some sense.

In regards to us leveling some japanese cities... yeah, that doesn't sit too well with me either. But, the job of our government in those situations is to save american lives. Droping those bombs more or less made japan surrender. That meant no more japanese shooting at american soldiers. And its not like we weren't provoked, you know.

edit:

Originally IM'd by Juanvaldes
<STRONG>
you might want to add how if we didn't bomb we were going to invade. we expected to lose 600K soldiers and were to kill around 2million japanese in the process
</STRONG>

good point, john.

If japan did today what they did back then, you can f_cking bet we'd level the whole damn country... and they should be glad we didn't then.

Are japanese lives worth less than american lives? Of course not. Are they to the american government? OF COURSE.

You think the japanese gov't gave two sh_ts about american civilians? hell no.

As for the UN not doing anything to "impose sanctions, conduct arms inspections or anything of the like" on america? HAHAHAHAHA oh man, you made my day. Without america there'd be no U.N.
And for the record, I don't think there should be one at all.

As for the retarded hick comment... oh man you're a sucker. Bush is not retarded. He's ****ing Ivy leage. And he's from maine, not texas. He's an asshole, sure, but he's not dumb. It's all an act.

Go earn some history.

p.s. i'm no fan of america either, but lets not be retarded about it.

-ch

[ 03-14-2002: Message edited by: chris_h ]

[theUpsetter]

Originally posted by The Jackalope:
<STRONG>I like your bigoted speak of 'rednecks'. Do say more.

By the way, does anyone here actually know where the term "redneck" come from, and why it's associated with white people from the south? I doubt most have...</STRONG>

I think it refers to the farmers who worked outside in the sun and the back of their necks got sunburned. Could be wrong though.

Right or wrong, calling President Bush a "redneck" or a "hick" is a little bit bigoted, show a little class.

Japan attacked us first, and when the war was over we rebuilt their country better than it was before! In addition the bombing carpet of Dresden in WWII killed more people than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined, so why don't we charge all the allied nations.

Talk about genocide, the USSR kill millions of their own citizens, as did China.

I am sick the hate America crowd, I think the USA is the greatest country on earth, nobody else enjoys level if freedoms that US citizens do; and no other country has done more to help others.

[ 03-14-2002: Message edited by: theUpsetter ]

[hytek]

Originally posted by Hawkeye_a_:

�Fight for peace��.has there ever been a better oxymoron ?

No, this country fights to preserve the freedoms you and me get to enjoy everyday when we wake up in the morning. Our nuclear arsenal is there as a deterent to any country or any person that seriously tries to take back what our country won in 1776, for every other threat there is the good men and women of the United States military waiting.

Sun Tzu wrote, "In war prepare for peace, in peace prepare for war." Oh how true those 2,500 year old words are.

[nonhuman]

Originally posted by theUpsetter:
<STRONG>Talk about genocide, the USSR kill millions of their own citizens, as did China.</STRONG>

If the USSR and China jumped off a cliff should the US do it too?

<STRONG>I am sick the hate America crowd, I think the USA is the greatest country on earth, nobody else enjoys level if freedoms that US citizens do; and no other country has done more to help others.</STRONG>

See, that's not quite true. US citizens may have more rights than most, if not all, other peoples, but for the most part those freedoms are taken for granted, and given away. People trust the government to safeguard their freedoms, and in doing so shirk the responsibility of maintaining them on their own. And now, many of them are questioned and/or taken away. The US may be the greatest country on earth, but it can only be so as long as it's people take responsibility for their own freedoms and fight to prevent it's government from taking them away. The price of freedom is vigilance, and if necessary rebellion. If you lack the means for either of those, then you lack freedom.

[theUpsetter]

Originally posted by nonhuman:
<STRONG>

See, that's not quite true. US citizens may have more rights than most, if not all, other peoples, but for the most part those freedoms are taken for granted, and given away. People trust the government to safeguard their freedoms, and in doing so shirk the responsibility of maintaining them on their own. And now, many of them are questioned and/or taken away. The US may be the greatest country on earth, but it can only be so as long as it's people take responsibility for their own freedoms and fight to prevent it's government from taking them away. The price of freedom is vigilance, and if necessary rebellion. If you lack the means for either of those, then you lack freedom.</STRONG>

actually I agree with you...thats why i support the right to bear arms.

[hytek]

See, that's not quite true. US citizens may have more rights than most, if not all, other peoples, but for the most part those freedoms are taken for granted, and given away. People trust the government to safeguard their freedoms, and in doing so shirk the responsibility of maintaining them on their own. And now, many of them are questioned and/or taken away. The US may be the greatest country on earth, but it can only be so as long as it's people take responsibility for their own freedoms and fight to prevent it's government from taking them away. The price of freedom is vigilance, and if necessary rebellion. If you lack the means for either of those, then you lack freedom.

If we could keep corperate America away from Capitol Hill and keep the number of elected far left Democrats and far right Republicans down, our freedoms would be a lot safer.

[Hawkeye_a]

Nuclear weapons to protect freedoms ? GIVE ME A BREAK. With that argument, ever nation in the world should have the right to have Nuclear weapons to protect their freedoms, whether communist or otherwise. And why shouldnt they ? NO other country has a t rack record of delibritaly using them against people.

On the redneck issue....... all i know is that "he" fits the description quite well.

[Myrkridia]

Originally posted by theUpsetter:
<STRONG>

I am sick the hate America crowd, I think the USA is the greatest country on earth, nobody else enjoys level if freedoms that US citizens do; and no other country has done more to help others.

[ 03-14-2002: Message edited by: theUpsetter ]</STRONG>

First it usually takes a whole lot to get this country of it's fast ass to lend a hand. We had to be attacked in Pearl Harbor, before we joined WWII and we had to have the world trade centres destroyed before we freed afgahnistan from the tyranny of the taliban. As for "nobody enjoys level of freedoms that US citizens do." Article 21:
Freedom of assembly and association as well as speech, press and all other forms of expression are guaranteed. 2) No censorship shall be maintained, nor shall the secrecy of any means of communication be violated.
That's from the Japanese constitution. I'll bet the 2 Live Crew wish the first amendment had been in place when they were arrested on stage for their lyrics. They say you have free speech but it's the governement that determines what is and isn't free speech. Doesn't sound like such a rock solid freedom to me. And last I got a brother in the army. When he came back from basic training almost every word out of his mouth about another country is a racial/ethnic slurr. If that's the kind of "patriotism" they teach in the army then you can keep it.

[boots]

While I'll dodge the hate mongering, I think there have been some interesting comments made on these fora about the UN. Many are pro, but a lot are anti.

I think the UN is an interesting experiment. The general assembly is the only example of a truly pluralistic governing body. That is something that has no real model, so it is increadibly ineffient right now. I assume that as it matures (and it has matured a lot in the last 10 or so years) it will become better. The biggest problems I see with the UN are that a) it lacks any kind of real enforcement; and b) the security council model is a major hinderance beacuase of the absolute veto power any member of the council enjoys. There is no real room for honest debate because the US or China could simply squash any measure...even if a plurality thought it was a good idea. It's kind of like having a president who could not be over-ridden if he vetoed something. Think how much more ineffective congress would be then? Even the threat of a veto would kill open debate.


As for "fighting for peace" being an oxymoron, it depends on how you fight. The "passive resistance" that Ghandi used was a very effective form of fighting that was also sucessfully used in the US deep south during the civil rights movements. The events that transpired in and around memphis during the lunchroom boycots was simply amazing. And anything but non-violent (Watch an interview with Dr. J. Lawsons. The protesters often got the sh*t beat out of them. How many Indians died in the "non-violent" overthrow of the british?

Unfortunately, there are no published studies on the effectiveness of passive resistance. PBS ran a series call "A Greater Power" (I think it was called) on the use of this "non-violent" conflict resolution around the world.

[darcybaston]

I don't think freedom of speech is real. Political nor personal.

Call the white house and tell them you hope Osama and terrorism and your support of all things evil are great to kill Bush and all americans, you will be visited. Even if you lied the whole time.

I don't have that view btw, I'm just using an example.

Other example: tell your spouse her behind is getting a little dimpled and watch what happens. It's just an observation, something you noticed, not that you think it undesireable in any way, and yet...

Fear needs to be eliminated as the most frequent sponsoring thought from which all other experiences are derived before anyone can declare themselves as who they are and not get punished in some way.

db

[hytek]

Originally posted by Hawkeye_a_:

NO other country has a track record of delibritaly using them against people.

And why did the US use two nuclear weapons against Japan? Oh yeah that's right, to keep from having to invade the Japanese mainland that would have costed the lives of close to a million or more people, Japanese and American, and would have totally destroyed and ruined Japan beyond repair. btw/ You do know that the Japanese developed and tested Bubonic Plague bombs against Manchuria, China during WWII and that the US mainland was the real target given enough time. So, I don't even want to hear that crap about how "evil" America is because we dropped the bomb on Japan.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by hytek:
<STRONG>Originally posted by Hawkeye_a_:


And why did the US use two nuclear weapons against Japan? Oh yeah that's right, to keep from having to invade the Japanese mainland that would have costed the lives of close to a million or more people, Japanese and American, and would have totally destroyed and ruined Japan beyond repair. btw/ You do know that the Japanese developed and tested Bubonic Plague bombs against Manchuria, China during WWII and that the US mainland was the real target given enough time. So, I don't even want to hear that crap about how "evil" America is because we dropped the bomb on Japan.</STRONG>

Could'a, would'a, should'a. But they didn't.

The US had two nuclear bombs dropped. The intresting thing about these bombs is that they were not identical, but used two different cores. Little Boy had a uranium core (Hiroshima), while Fat Man had a plutonium core. Maybe the army wanted to see the difference 'on the field'. And they did. That is why they bombed Japan twice, that is why they bombed civilian targets instead of demonstrating the power they wielded before Japanese officials. In my humble...

[theUpsetter]

Originally posted by Myrkridia:
<STRONG>

First it usually takes a whole lot to get this country of it's fast ass to lend a hand. We had to be attacked in Pearl Harbor, before we joined WWII and we had to have the world trade centers destroyed before we freed afgahnistan from the tyranny of the taliban. </STRONG>

We were trying to avoid fighting in WWII, or at lest put it off, many americans opposed getting involved in the war in the Pacific or Europe, but we did supported England with arms and supplies. Now when we try to nip something in the bud so it doesn't turn into a WWII we yelled at for "imposing our will" on other countries.

As for not doing something about terrorism, I blame that on the last administration who at many chances to catch Osama,but never took advantage of it. But, for arguments sake, lets say that the WTC thing never happened, but Bush decided to free "afgahnistan from the tyranny of the taliban," well then would be talking about the US imposing its will on others again.

<STRONG>As for "nobody enjoys level of freedoms that US citizens do."Freedom of assembly and association as well as speech, press and all other forms of expression are guaranteed. 2) No censorship shall be maintained, nor shall the secrecy of any means of communication be violated. That's from the Japanese constitution. I'll bet the 2 Live Crew wish the first amendment had been in place when they were arrested on stage for their lyrics. They say you have free speech but it's the government that determines what is and isn't free speech. Doesn't sound like such a rock solid freedom to me. And last I got a brother in the army. When he came back from basic training almost every word out of his mouth about another country is a racial/ethnic slurr. If that's the kind of "patriotism" they teach in the army then you can keep it.</STRONG>

Hey, so the United States isn't perfect. 2 Live Crew was arrested for being obscene in public, laws that I don't really agree with, but I believe they were acquitted based because their arrest violated their first amendment right. As for your brother, he has free will, if he's using foul language thats his right, they don't teach patriotism in the army, they create warriors.

[ 03-14-2002: Message edited by: theUpsetter ]

[boots]

Originally posted by theUpsetter:
<STRONG>
[snip]....
Now when we try to nip something in the bud so it doesn't turn into a WWII we yelled at for "imposing our will" on other countries.

[snip...]</STRONG>

When it comes to using milary force, it does have the appearance of imposing ones will. It's all about the timing and perception. Frankly, (and I know hind sight is 20/20) we should have been in afghanistan (non-militarily) well before the budda's were destroyed.

There are two forms of pacifism. 1) turn the other cheek and let people do what they want and 2) proactive peace seeking. Identifying potential problems and diffusing them before they get to a point where military intervention is necessary. I tend to be one of the latter. I believe in supporting a functional and skilled military, but I think our goal should be to avoid using it. Maybe merge the military with a jobs program...sort of like expanding the army corp of engineers kinda thing. So that they are being used for more than just show during our times of peace.

[theUpsetter]

Originally posted by boots:
<STRONG>
Frankly, (and I know hind sight is 20/20) we should have been in afghanistan (non-militarily) well before the budda's were destroyed.
</STRONG>

Somehow I still think a lot of people would still be criticizing America if we did something then. Look at the Gulf war, Kuwait asks for our help, we come to the rescue, and now (at lest here at San Francisco State University) the incident is looked at as an example American imperialism.

[anarkisst]

The Japanese attacking Pearl Harbor was a cowardly act...the Japanese admitted that. Wasn't part of their warrior code of ethics to sneak upon an enemy. But they did it and we paid them back for their stupidity.

The attack of innocent civilians at the World Trade Center and the Pentagon was a cowardly act too (I don't give a shit what Bill Mahr said). As are all terrorist acts. And they should (will) be punished for this.

As far as I'm concerned the US can bomb Afganistan, Iraq, Iran into oblivion...I wouldn't care a damn bit. Unless they can sit down face to face and settle their differences with us in a civilized, intelligent manner...without stupid religions getting in the way either.

[boots]

Originally posted by theUpsetter:
<STRONG>

Somehow I still think a lot of people would still be criticizing America if we did something then. Look at the Gulf war, Kuwait asks for our help, we come to the rescue, and now (at lest here at San Francisco State University) the incident is looked at as an example American imperialism.</STRONG>

Key word: non-military


It's amazing what diplomacy can do before the parties are painted into a corner. If we had gone into these places when we first had a whiff of something rotten (using diplomates, and strengthening ties - economic and culteral), then a lot of the threat disappears before it gets out of hand. Create some sort of mutual interdependance. Mutual interdependance is a good thing, and really should be the goal of globalization. As it is, globalization is about pillage the weak and run with the profits (oh my gosh, that was a KH thing ) With mutual interdependance, not only does the MAD paradigm still exist as a deterant (although in a much broader context than the current nuclear context) it isn't "interference" because both sides benefit from the relationship.

One of the problems with our middle east policy is that it does nothing to try to reconcile cultural differences. We are seen as the great satan because of misperception reinforced by things like the current afghanistan situation. We only react AFTER the "situation calls for force." Then we just look like bullies because we don't understand how they think and live...and they don't understand how we think and live.

One wonders what the world would be like if the world community had acted when hitler was just starting to ramp up the propaganda machine. The world DID have a lot of clues as to what was going to happen, but they chose to wait until it got out of hand. Better yet would have been a more mature world response to the events which precipitated WWI. Many would argue that WWI was just a continuation of the same war after a brief intermission.

One of the biggest challenges I see the world facing is the in coexisting in a pluralistic world. We don't have a real model for that. We don't know what that looks like. There is no majority, there aren't always significant coalitions, and there is no upside to military enforcement of will (as the last 100 years has demonstrated). That is why I think the UN is an interesting experiment.

flame away, I gave people a lot of ammo with that one.

[Hawkeye_a]

America didnt want to enter WWII, how true, only fuel tensions all over by supplying weapons everywhere...there is the true peacemaker at work. a hidden enemy ?....i wonder... and if "history is written by those who have hanged heroes"...i wonder what history would have to say about the American empire and the Bush dynasty.

[Hawkeye_a]

Originally posted by anarkisst:
<STRONG>The Japanese attacking Pearl Harbor was a cowardly act...the Japanese admitted that. Wasn't part of their warrior code of ethics to sneak upon an enemy. But they did it and we paid them back for their stupidity.

The attack of innocent civilians at the World Trade Center and the Pentagon was a cowardly act too (I don't give a shit what Bill Mahr said). As are all terrorist acts. And they should (will) be punished for this.

As far as I'm concerned the US can bomb Afganistan, Iraq, Iran into oblivion...I wouldn't care a damn bit. Unless they can sit down face to face and settle their differences with us in a civilized, intelligent manner...without stupid religions getting in the way either.</STRONG>

hehehe..... there are 5.7billion people outside the U.S. once you start the bombing, you wont be able to stop until u kill em all. lol.

[v0id7]

[only read half of the thread, but cant believe there are ppl who dont know what redneck means]


im from georgia

[hytek]

Originally posted by voodoo:

Could'a, would'a, should'a. But they didn't.

The US had two nuclear bombs dropped. The intresting thing about these bombs is that they were not identical, but used two different cores. Little Boy had a uranium core (Hiroshima), while Fat Man had a plutonium core. Maybe the army wanted to see the difference 'on the field'. And they did. That is why they bombed Japan twice, that is why they bombed civilian targets instead of demonstrating the power they wielded before Japanese officials. In my humble...

Could'a, would'a, should'a. Perhaps you should study the incidents in Manchuria more closely. In fact, and this goes for anyone, look into some of the secret bio-warfare projects Japan was developing during WWII. They made the German death camps look like a day in the park. Also look into the subject of how some American POW's were forced to serve as lab rats for those bio-warfare experiments. Japan also had blue prints drawn up, based off of blue prints for American build transport planes, for a huge 6 engine heavy bomber designed to fly all the way across the Pacific, drop the Bubonic Plague bombs, which were filled with Plague infested fleas, over west coast cities in the US, and then fly all the way back to Japan. They were also very aware of the Jet Stream currents and actually used them to deliver small conventional bombs over the US mainland using ballons, many of those bombs lay unexploded in several western states, but they didn't used the Plague bombs with these ballons because the fleas wouldn't survive the prolonged exposure to the intense cold of the upper atmoshpere. The bottom line is their intent was to use biological weapons against the US mainland.

Japan's "officals", as were a few other countries, were all to aware of the Manhattan Project (they needed no demostration). They knew we were developing a Atomic weapon but did not believe we would use it against them, so they decided to continue on with the war hoping the US would choose to invade the Japanese mainland instead. They were possibly fed false intelligence on whether the US would invade or use the atomic bombs, who knows, but the end result was that those two bombs ended WWII. Japan was later rebuilt better than it was and they are now a very important member of the world community. If didn't have the bombs and we were forced to invade, Japan would have lost so much in the way of their culture, their history, everything.

[C33]

yeah, you tell em hytek! if it weren't for the bomb we wouldn't have toyota or godzilla or mothra or reinventions of everything but smaller.

[hytek]

Originally posted by Hawkeye_a_:

hehehe..... there are 5.7billion people outside the U.S. once you start the bombing, you wont be able to stop until u kill em all. lol.

That's right. If the US launches, every country on our sh!t list gets nuked, repeatedly. It doesn't matter if they did anything wrong or not. The reason being is because the only countries you would want to survive such a event would be your very closest allies. We've all heard the saying "Trust No One", well this is what it means.

Sorry, but I gotta ask why does all this bother you so much? You're a few years too late for the Cold War party, the Bush Administration didn't launch any nukes when the Pentagon was hit, which is surprising, and the conflict in Afganistan doesn't require nuclear weapons, so why lose sleep over this subject. All that crap that happened in Japan happened almost 60 years ago and is old news. The US nuclear arsenal is safer now than it was before Sept. 11th, so what's really eating you?

[C33]

hell, we should just nuke everybody. wouldn't it be great if it were just us americans on the planet. so whadaya say america, are you with me?



[ 03-14-2002: Message edited by: C33 ]