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esc · Jul 3, 2002, 11:04 AM

Since Apple is not doing anything involving the "Trusted Computing Platform Alliance" in general or Palladium in particular, some folks may see OS X as a more viable platform than Windows.

Ross Anderson has an excellent TCPA/Palladium <a href="http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html" target="_blank">FAQ</a> ... Send a copy to your windows friends.

It is interesting to note that some of the features already come with Windows XP and it would be easy to add others well before Palladium hits the streets.

sadie · Jul 3, 2002, 11:33 AM

For twenty years we've been calling Microsoft "evil". Now they've finally admitted it.

Palladium is M$'s attempt to grasp control of all digital content. That may sound extreme, but it's true. Take a look at the details:

Applications that subscribe to Palladium will use it to digitally sign (encrypt) all their content. This will prevent them being used by anyone who hasn't been granted a key by the proper authority.</li>
CDs, DVDs etc will come encrypted, and the only authority that can grant you the key will be the publisher. This is intended to make them much harder to rip - or, say, play on another machine.</li>
Those discs therefore cannot be played on non-Palladium machines - such a Mac or Linux box.</li>
At the same time, Congress will try to ban the sale of any non-"Trusted" devices.</li>
Microsoft will have key access to any computer with Windows. They will use this key to install any software they like, and prevent installation of any software they don't like.</li>
Any software that allows or promotes free use or free discussion can now be shut down from a central source.
[*}Bingo. M$ are now more powerful than any government.
</li>

Do you see? After a few decades of freedom and security, it's finally come. The struggle to decide whether big business or little users control all information and personal freedom. This is the war.
[edit: is my grammar really that bad? i must be in a bad mood]

[ 07-03-2002, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: sadie ]

chris v · Jul 3, 2002, 11:48 AM

I may be mis-reading all this stuff, but I for one, won't be buying any computers that have a chip on the logic board that can control what software or file types I can load on to my hard drive.

I suspect that Microsoft/Intel are underestimating the sh*tstorm that this is going to cause. Let's all hope it blows up in their faces real good.

If it becomes a crime to run open source software, and freely trade files w/o govt. approval, then they're going to have to build a lot more prisons.

CV

[ 07-03-2002, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: chris v ]

gorickey · Jul 3, 2002, 11:53 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by chris v:
I may be mis-reading all this stuff, but I for one, won't be buying any computers that have a chip on the logic board that can control what software of file types I can load on to my hard drive.

I suspect that Microsoft/Intel are underestimating the sh*tstorm that this is going to cause. Let's all hope it blows up in their faces real good.

CV<hr /></blockquote>I agree, I think this will totally backfire in their face and tick off ALOT of people...of course, all of which will come hardcore Mac users <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

sadie · Jul 3, 2002, 11:59 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />I think this will totally backfire in their face and tick off ALOT of people<hr /></blockquote>Go have a look at slashdot; a lot of people are very ****ed off. But this plan will still have a good chance of success, because it will be carried along by the overpowering weight of sheep.

dreilly1 · Jul 3, 2002, 12:40 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by sadie:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />I think this will totally backfire in their face and tick off ALOT of people<hr /></blockquote>Go have a look at slashdot; a lot of people are very ****ed off. But this plan will still have a good chance of success, because it will be carried along by the overpowering weight of sheep.<hr /></blockquote>Exactly. A lot of /.ers (including myself) are ticked off. But most people aren't /.ers (although there are plenty of people out there who are trolls, and don't know it), and most people will buy this hook, line, and sinker, as long as they aren't inconvenienced by it. (By "aren't inconvenienced", I mean that they can still watch TV, which is what most of America does now, anyway.)

People upgrade their PC's every three to five years anyway; If MS introduces this in 2004, they can keep it quiet until 2009, and then turn the switch, and have an instant installed base of well over 90%.

They'll take my Macs and Linux boxes from me when they pry them from my cold, dead hands! (or, when Fritz Hollings makes them illegal because they don't have DRM in them.)

Developer · Jul 3, 2002, 12:44 PM

I don't see how this could work.

Let's say I run a Linux PC, and make some changes to the OS. The 'Fritz' chips recognizes that my OS has been changed and refuses to run it.
Then I send the source code to Disney, they inspect it and send me an encrypted code so that the OS is recognized again??? That doesn't sound very practical.

zerologic · Jul 3, 2002, 12:46 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by sadie:
this plan will still have a good chance of success, because it will be carried along by the overpowering weight of sheep.<hr /></blockquote>110% agreed. People don't care. Geeks care, but the average AOL user couldn't care less about this issue. My wife's parents don't know about Palladium much less what it means to them WRT privacy and content management. (Her mom is a Mac user FWIW

)

I fear for the future of this country, not for the country itself, but for the SHEEP that reside in it. No one cares that they give up a freedom here and a freedom there as long as it is for the greater good. One day they'll realize that there are no more freedoms to give.

Scary.

0

Sine · Jul 3, 2002, 12:46 PM

Apple need to put out a new "switched" campaign.

"I switched over to OS X, once I heard about Palladium"

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

MacGorilla · Jul 3, 2002, 12:49 PM

What M$ coul;dn't do with software (security, control) they're trying with hardware. Someone call the DONJ...oh wait..never mind... <img border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" title="" src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" />

hushmail · Jul 3, 2002, 12:52 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by chris v:
I may be mis-reading all this stuff, but I for one, won't be buying any computers that have a chip on the logic board that can control what software or file types I can load on to my hard drive.<hr /></blockquote>Actually, you won't be buying _any_ computers at all.

Once the CBDTPA passes, even Apple will have to implement this scheme.

(no, moving to Europe won't help, this as every other piece of corrupt legislation will be successfully exported by our MPAA & RIAA friends).

chris v · Jul 3, 2002, 01:28 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by hushmail:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by chris v:
I may be mis-reading all this stuff, but I for one, won't be buying any computers that have a chip on the logic board that can control what software or file types I can load on to my hard drive.<hr /></blockquote>Actually, you won't be buying _any_ computers at all.

Once the CBDTPA passes, even Apple will have to implement this scheme.

(no, moving to Europe won't help, this as every other piece of corrupt legislation will be successfully exported by our MPAA & RIAA friends).<hr /></blockquote>Do you really think the big IT/institutional users are going to stand for this? The UNIX community isn't going to take it lying down-- you think server farms and mainframes everywhere will be upgraded to machines with this kind of scheme implemented? I think not. And for better or worse, Apple is now part and parcel with UNIX, and should fight this tooth and nail if they know what's good for them. Apple/Sun/IBM have a little lobbying power, too. Let's hope they use it.

CV

esc · Jul 3, 2002, 01:40 PM

The big IT institutional firms seem positive at this point. It transfers power from the users into a smaller set of hands. By partnering with Microsoft they can become even richer.

The govt probably also likes it and could negotiate backdoors for tracking information. It is possible and in the current spirit of trading freedom for "security" it could happen.

The best approach is to make end users nervous about it. Make this a topic of conversation with your Windows using friends. Perhaps some of them will even switch. Point out that some aspects already exist in XP and the X-Box.

I strongly agree with the "sheep" characterization for most users. If they are told this will control their junk email and allow for *strong* parental control, most people will probably go along with it.

- where is Microsoft going to let you go today?

Lew · Jul 3, 2002, 01:53 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by hushmail:
(no, moving to Europe won't help, this as every other piece of corrupt legislation will be successfully exported by our MPAA & RIAA friends).<hr /></blockquote>Is that why we can buy region-free DVD players in Europe and Australia? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

hushmail · Jul 3, 2002, 01:54 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by chris v:
Do you really think the big IT/institutional users are going to stand for this? The UNIX community isn't going to take it lying down-- you think server farms and mainframes everywhere will be upgraded to machines with this kind of scheme implemented? I think not. And for better or worse, Apple is now part and parcel with UNIX, and should fight this tooth and nail if they know what's good for them. Apple/Sun/IBM have a little lobbying power, too. Let's hope they use it.<hr /></blockquote>Users don't matter. Users don't have money and lawyers. MPAA/RIAA/Microsoft do. IBM has money and lawyers too, but they won't do anything about the situation until it's absolutely necessary.

Users couldn't stop the DMCA, and users can't stop the CBDTPA either.

This is the war of the titans.

hushmail · Jul 3, 2002, 02:00 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by GFive:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by hushmail:
(no, moving to Europe won't help, this as every other piece of corrupt legislation will be successfully exported by our MPAA & RIAA friends).<hr /></blockquote>Is that why we can buy region-free DVD players in Europe and Australia? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>No. That's because the exported legislation, the European Copyright Directive, won't be implemented in the European Union until December 2002. Perhaps you should read up on these issues before spouting off smart ass remarks.

hushmail · Jul 3, 2002, 02:05 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by esc:
The govt probably also likes it and could negotiate backdoors for tracking information. It is possible and in the current spirit of trading freedom for "security" it could happen.<hr /></blockquote>Exactly. When "everyone" is using these new "secure government-friendly" computers, don't let anyone see you using your old PC. They'll report you to the government for being a terrorist. Obviously, only terrorists use these old computers so that they can play the old version of Microsoft Flight Simulator which does not report you to the FBI when you crash into buildings.

[ 07-03-2002, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: hushmail ]

nibeck · Jul 3, 2002, 02:11 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I don't see how this could work.

Let's say I run a Linux PC, and make some changes to the OS. The 'Fritz' chips recognizes that my OS has been changed and refuses to run it.
<hr /></blockquote>If I understand this correctly, you probably wouldn't be able to install Linux in the first place. Ther's talk about this technology denying access to GPLd software.

- Mike

hushmail · Jul 3, 2002, 02:16 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by nibeck:
If I understand this correctly, you probably wouldn't be able to install Linux in the first place. Ther's talk about this technology denying access to GPLd software.<hr /></blockquote>Actually, they would probably still allow you to run your own software. The problem is that this software would be not signed and certified, so your computer will be operating in non-secure mode. This means that your GNU/Linux installation is practically useless. You can't send email to people whose ISP use certified and signed operating systems. Same problem with web browsing. You can't open files from people who use certified operating systems, nor will they be able to open files from you. Microsoft would obviously like their operating system to be the only one which is certified and signed.

[ 07-03-2002, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: hushmail ]

dreilly1 · Jul 3, 2002, 02:19 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Developer:
I don't see how this could work.

Let's say I run a Linux PC, and make some changes to the OS. The 'Fritz' chips recognizes that my OS has been changed and refuses to run it.
Then I send the source code to Disney, they inspect it and send me an encrypted code so that the OS is recognized again??? That doesn't sound very practical.<hr /></blockquote>It's not practical, that's the whole point. You will have to "certify" each binary to run on the Palladium PC platform, because uncertified binaries will not run. And cerifying costs $$$, which is the one resource that community-developed open-source project (read: Linux or any GNU program) does not have.

Even if a company like RedHat or IBM were to fork over the dough to certify Linux and its apps, the certification would be, by definition, on each binary only, rendering source code availability useless, since you won't be able to actually execute a re-compiled binary with your changes in it.

It's very impractical for everyone except proprietary software vendors. Because any other software development model is Unamerican.

Developer · Jul 3, 2002, 04:13 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by dreilly1:
It's not practical, that's the whole point. You will have to "certify" each binary to run on the Palladium PC platform, because uncertified binaries will not run. And cerifying costs $$$, which is the one resource that community-developed open-source project (read: Linux or any GNU program) does not have.

Even if a company like RedHat or IBM were to fork over the dough to certify Linux and its apps, the certification would be, by definition, on each binary only, rendering source code availability useless, since you won't be able to actually execute a re-compiled binary with your changes in it.

It's very impractical for everyone except proprietary software vendors. Because any other software development model is Unamerican.

<hr /></blockquote>I guess such a system would be illegal.

crystalthunder · Jul 3, 2002, 05:23 PM

Holy ****e I thought this was a joke, but this is damn serious. Who the hell do these Intel and Microsoft bastards really think they are?!! I can't believe this. There is no way the US gov w/ approve of such a system.

dreilly1 · Jul 3, 2002, 05:51 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by crystalthunder:
Holy ****e I thought this was a joke, but this is damn serious. Who the hell do these Intel and Microsoft bastards really think they are?!! I can't believe this. There is no way the US gov w/ approve of such a system.<hr /></blockquote>They're the ones who give the congressmen the money they need to campaign. Believe me, the congressmen will approve.

zerologic · Jul 3, 2002, 06:01 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by crystalthunder:
There is no way the US gov w/ approve of such a system.<hr /></blockquote>You're funny. Congress approves whatever pays the most. Look at the history of legislation and who supported it since the 40s and you'll see it.

This is the same government mind you that brought anti-trust suits against Microsoft, yet MANDATE the use of Windows in the name of a consistent platform.

Whatever... this government stinks, but it is the best on the planet. Go figure

0

JLL · Jul 3, 2002, 06:09 PM

I guess that George Orwell was wrong - about the year!

nforcer · Jul 3, 2002, 06:18 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by crystalthunder:
Holy ****e I thought this was a joke, but this is damn serious. Who the hell do these Intel and Microsoft bastards really think they are?!! I can't believe this. There is no way the US gov w/ approve of such a system.<hr /></blockquote>There are too many stupid politicians who too easily trust companies like Microsoft or could be bought out. They are the same ones who approved the DCMA. If there are ever laws passed in favor of this crap requiring people to use it or companies to support it, I move out of this country.

Chris Grande · Jul 3, 2002, 06:30 PM

It's just a matter of time before it happens, and it will. Thata the scary part.

hushmail · Jul 3, 2002, 06:31 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by zerologic:
Whatever... this government stinks, but it is the best on the planet. Go figure

<hr /></blockquote>They're best at accepting bribes

zadak · Jul 3, 2002, 06:45 PM

Mr Bush scares the **** out of me.
He is evil.

zadak · Jul 3, 2002, 06:49 PM

hushmail < if you think that the Bush goverment is the best on the planet: go travel.

hushmail · Jul 3, 2002, 07:21 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by zadak:
hushmail < if you think that the Bush goverment is the best on the planet: go travel.<hr /></blockquote>I don't think that. I do however think that you're a moron. Wait, strike that. I know for a fact that you're a moron; your post proves it.

Mr Scruff · Jul 3, 2002, 07:43 PM

This marks a large step towards the centrally controlled computer platform, with centrally controlled internet. It was always going to happen though. The main thing to understand is that all western governments are essentially there to protect the abilities of the larger multinational companies to make money. They are not interested in politics for the advancement of the populace as a whole.

This is sometimes because they are essentially employees of a particular company or organisation (eg. Senator Hollings is mainly funded by the RIAA). Sometimes it is because they are raging capitalists who regard the advancement of big business as the way forward for society.

Many politicians are decidedly anti-freedom and anti-privacy. They see all computer users as thieves, after all why would you concern yourself with DRM unless it is so you can steal media?

I share some of the RIAA's concerns with music sharing being a threat to the recording industry. But then again, they are the ones who have been ferociously overcharging for CDs over the last 20 years, so my sympathy will only stretch so far. Also, DRM can be used as a trojan to bring in a lot of other, unsavory big brother technologies that will have serious implications for computer users this century.

As a side effect, all non approved platforms (like those GPL commies) will be eradicated. Ah well says Microsoft, can't make an omlette without breaking a few eggs. Sorry if this has strayed dangerously close to lounge material.

neoTony · Jul 3, 2002, 07:50 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by hushmail:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by GFive:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by hushmail:
(no, moving to Europe won't help, this as every other piece of corrupt legislation will be successfully exported by our MPAA & RIAA friends).<hr /></blockquote>Is that why we can buy region-free DVD players in Europe and Australia? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> <hr /></blockquote>No. That's because the exported legislation, the European Copyright Directive, won't be implemented in the European Union until December 2002. Perhaps you should read up on these issues before spouting off smart ass remarks.<hr /></blockquote>I'd make some smartass comment about us Aussies getting out of it, but we're just becoming mini-America...god the world blows...

Cipher13 · Jul 3, 2002, 08:39 PM

Don't worry.

One day everyone will realise that us power users hold all the keys.

I already know it... many others do... think about it.

booboo · Jul 3, 2002, 08:41 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JLL:
I guess that George Orwell was wrong - about the year!<hr /></blockquote>No he was right, just nobody noticed...

Mac Guru · Jul 3, 2002, 09:46 PM

Sad thing, M$ already has too much power, had someone of influence seen this coming years ago we MIGHT have had a chance. I'm very annoyed at a governmental system that claims they don't tolerate monopolistic behavior then turns around and hands pretty much ALL thier political power to ONE company and says SURE, go ahead and control EVERYTHING we need to communicate! The Fall of the Roman Empire Part 2 anyone?

Mac Guru

fsauer1 · Jul 3, 2002, 11:27 PM

Does anyone out there read the papers or work in the real world?

System security today does not exist, for all practical purposes. If you are even slightly "geek", you can find scripts to send a virus, hack into systems and deny access. Teenagers are blocking or shutting down 911 and hospital systems, just for fun! It can get worse by those with really criminal/terror intentions: water supplies, identities of individuals, power grids, telephone grids, the internet. Today's systems are reactive, plugging the hole after someone abuses it; they stop the 2nd virus attack or hack, but not the 1st since they don't know that vulnerability until after that 1st attack.

While many don't like M$, the problem with Palladium is the inherent problem of all the OS's (including Mac OS X and OS 9.) They have so many holes it is almost impossible to find them, let alone fix them. So, building something new and using some hardware (chips) to limit some of the vulnerabilities is the current approach.

This is a real problem for everyone posting here. Your ability to use the net can be cut off at any time by a single hacker or virus. You can complain about M$, but at least they are trying to do something. Unless you can propose a better solution, don't pretend that bitching about M$ will somehow solve this. (BTY, I use Macs and use to be an executive at Apple)

spectre · Jul 3, 2002, 11:42 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by booboo:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JLL:
I guess that George Orwell was wrong - about the year!<hr /></blockquote>No he was right, just nobody noticed...<hr /></blockquote>BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU

Person Man · Jul 4, 2002, 12:06 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mr Scruff:

Sorry if this has strayed dangerously close to lounge material.<hr /></blockquote>Actually, I think this whole thread is lounge material. It has nothing to do with general discussion of OS X...

funkboy · Jul 4, 2002, 12:29 AM

I have two questions:

- What can we as users seriously do about this? This is very scary shiznat.
- Why did they have to use the word Palladium? That was, as Tito Puente said, "the home of the mambo." You don't take the home of the mambo's name and slap it on a world-domination scheme... Tito Puente's spirit won't stand for it, methinks...

joeswell · Jul 4, 2002, 12:32 AM

Reading these posts is very upsetting. Please forgive the question, but does this "Paladium" thing mean that some outside entity (Microsoft, etc.) will control what I can and cannot do on my computer? If a computer does not have this "Paladium thing" then it will be locked out of the internet, e mail, etc.?
I guess when that happens, I will revert back to pre-digital days. I lived for many years without CD's, computers, video games, etc. and I can take it or leave it. I am all in favor of safety and national security, it seems to me that this whole thing is about money and greed.
I guess the only way out of this would be if Microsoft can be caught stealing like Enron and Worldcom. Maybe that would slow them down a bit.

Sine · Jul 4, 2002, 02:50 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by zadak:
Mr Bush scares the **** out of me.
He is evil.<hr /></blockquote>You're afraid of little girls too aren't you?

Cipher13 · Jul 4, 2002, 03:13 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by fsauer1:
Does anyone out there read the papers or work in the real world?

System security today does not exist, for all practical purposes. If you are even slightly "geek", you can find scripts to send a virus, hack into systems and deny access. Teenagers are blocking or shutting down 911 and hospital systems, just for fun! It can get worse by those with really criminal/terror intentions: water supplies, identities of individuals, power grids, telephone grids, the internet. Today's systems are reactive, plugging the hole after someone abuses it; they stop the 2nd virus attack or hack, but not the 1st since they don't know that vulnerability until after that 1st attack.

While many don't like M$, the problem with Palladium is the inherent problem of all the OS's (including Mac OS X and OS 9.) They have so many holes it is almost impossible to find them, let alone fix them. So, building something new and using some hardware (chips) to limit some of the vulnerabilities is the current approach.

This is a real problem for everyone posting here. Your ability to use the net can be cut off at any time by a single hacker or virus. You can complain about M$, but at least they are trying to do something. Unless you can propose a better solution, don't pretend that bitching about M$ will somehow solve this. (BTY, I use Macs and use to be an executive at Apple)<hr /></blockquote>This is nothing to do with MS trying to make the digital world a safer place... it's about them gaining power.

If anything, it only poses problems, given that every system running Paladdium can be controlled remotely. Every aspect of it. The same weaknesses will be present on every system.

It wouldn't take much to exploit them.

And just remember... all these security holes... you only get t bitch about the ones you know about.

Many people, whom if they found a security hole yielding complete control of a target computer, would keep it to themselves and use it malisciously. Why tell MS about it?

This can't happen. The sheep are unimportant. They have no influence - but without people like us, tech support people, programmers, scripters, and so on, they have nothing.

If this happens, it'll be as much our fault for not stopping it, as MS's for implementing it.

CarpetFluff · Jul 4, 2002, 03:56 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Teenagers are blocking or shutting down 911 and hospital systems, just for fun! It can get worse by those with really criminal/terror intentions: water supplies, identities of individuals, power grids, telephone grids <hr /></blockquote>Huh? Will somebody please explain to me why these systems need to be hooked up to the net? I've never understood this. In any event, I'd rather take my chances with the teenagers and script kiddies.

I don't believe for a second that any of these measures will combat terrorism, all it does is sh*t on the little people so that corporations can keep their fat profit margins.

America, land of the brave and home of the free? I think not, America is edging more and more towards a corrupt crypto-fascist state ruled by corporations and the rest of the world is rapidly following suit. Why is it every morning I wake up and read something that makes me think i'm living my life in a Paul Verhoven movie?, that'd be great if it was Striptease but unfortunately not.

Where's Robocop to sort this lot out?

This being independence day and all, I'm pretty sure that those who fought and died for freedom from the greed of the English monarchy didn't think they were fighting for this.

zadak · Jul 4, 2002, 04:15 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Sine:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by zadak:
Mr Bush scares the **** out of me.
He is evil.<hr /></blockquote>You're afraid of little girls too aren't you?<hr /></blockquote>Only thoose who starts wars.

Mr Scruff · Jul 4, 2002, 05:06 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by fsauer1:
Does anyone out there read the papers or work in the real world?

System security today does not exist, for all practical purposes. If you are even slightly "geek", you can find scripts to send a virus, hack into systems and deny access. Teenagers are blocking or shutting down 911 and hospital systems, just for fun! It can get worse by those with really criminal/terror intentions: water supplies, identities of individuals, power grids, telephone grids, the internet. Today's systems are reactive, plugging the hole after someone abuses it; they stop the 2nd virus attack or hack, but not the 1st since they don't know that vulnerability until after that 1st attack.<hr /></blockquote>Can you please present evidence of teenagers shutting down hospital or 911 systems?

sadie · Jul 4, 2002, 05:17 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Cipher13:
The sheep are unimportant. They have no influence - but without people like us, tech support people, programmers, scripters, and so on, they have nothing.

If this happens, it'll be as much our fault for not stopping it, as MS's for implementing it.<hr /></blockquote>Does anybody know how to spam? I want to send a message to all Microsoft's developers, saying "please don't do this!"

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Joswell voiced:
I guess when that happens, I will revert back to pre-digital days. I lived for many years without CD's, computers, video games, etc. and I can take it or leave it.<hr /></blockquote>I can't take it or leave it. I'm a programmer by trade, a geek by nature, and keep in touch with most of my friends through technology more than by actually meeting them. How am I supposed to put technology aside?

olli_g · Jul 4, 2002, 06:10 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by nibeck:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr /> I don't see how this could work.

Let's say I run a Linux PC, and make some changes to the OS. The 'Fritz' chips recognizes that my OS has been changed and refuses to run it.
<hr /></blockquote>If I understand this correctly, you probably wouldn't be able to install Linux in the first place. Ther's talk about this technology denying access to GPLd software.

- Mike<hr /></blockquote>Uh... perhaps I didn't understand, but: you can always turn this Fritz chip off. If you want to install Linux or Mac OS X (

) on a PC, just turn the f�kcing chip of and there you go.

Greets
olli_g

Cipher13 · Jul 4, 2002, 07:24 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by olli_g:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by nibeck:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr /> I don't see how this could work.

Let's say I run a Linux PC, and make some changes to the OS. The 'Fritz' chips recognizes that my OS has been changed and refuses to run it.
<hr /></blockquote>If I understand this correctly, you probably wouldn't be able to install Linux in the first place. Ther's talk about this technology denying access to GPLd software.

- Mike<hr /></blockquote>Uh... perhaps I didn't understand, but: you can always turn this Fritz chip off. If you want to install Linux or Mac OS X (

) on a PC, just turn the f�kcing chip of and there you go.

Greets
olli_g<hr /></blockquote>Until bootchecks make sure the chip is present and active... which will be bypassed... then the chip will be integrated with the processor or something... and it will be bypassed... and on and on.

Either way, it's not gonna be pleasant.

Developer · Jul 4, 2002, 07:49 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by olli_g:

Uh... perhaps I didn't understand, but: you can always turn this Fritz chip off. If you want to install Linux or Mac OS X (

) on a PC, just turn the f�kcing chip of and there you go.<hr /></blockquote>The question is, will a Palladium Internet Server send copyrighted material (images, news...) to a client, that didn't identify itself as "trusted" computer?