 |
 |
Blu-ray/HD DVD... Who is winning? (Page 129)
|
|
|
|
|
Posting Junkie
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Portland, OR
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by aristotles 
If you don't give a crap about Pip, then you can save money on a Profile 1.0 player or you can pay a little more for a profile 1.1 player if you want pip. Not all TV's support pip through dual tuners so why do you expect all players to have all the same features?
But HD-DVD had all those features at a $199 price point (now fire sale $149). Why are those features so expensive on the Bluray side? I mean, half of them are just software and don't actually cost anything to add. And the cost of an Ethernet port? Not exactly expensive.
|
|
8 Core 2.8 ghz Mac Pro/GF8800/2 23" Cinema Displays, 3.06 ghz Macbook Pro
Once you wanted revolution, now you're the institution, how's it feel to be the man?
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Moderator Emeritus  Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Illinois
Status:
Offline
|
|
The features themselves aren't expensive, it's just that you can only get them on the newest models -- which are obviously going to be more expensive than older ones. Once this profile business levels out all players on the market will be equally able to play all discs.
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Professional Poster
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: T •
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by icruise
The features themselves aren't expensive, it's just that you can only get them on the newest models -- which are obviously going to be more expensive than older ones. Once this profile business levels out all players on the market will be equally able to play all discs.
The $399 ps3 is future proof
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Illinois
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES
The $399 ps3 is future proof
Yes it is, but my point is that I don't expect there to be problems in the future like we're seeing now. They had to make some major changes to the profile to match what HD-DVD was doing, and that left some of the older players in the cold, but they're not likely to do that on a regular basis. It's just like how my early DVD player had a lot of trouble playing DVDs with "advanced" features like seamless branching and pop-up graphics. That isn't an issue with new players today, just like future BR players will be able to play everything. Chalk it up to teething problems.
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Professional Poster
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: T •
Status:
Offline
|
|
Hey I remember my first $1000 upconverting DVD platyer couldn't handle CD-R's.
The important thing is the movie itself will pay on any BR player it is just the silly PiP and web features that won't work.
Considering the people with these old players are early adapters who spent $800 on a BR player they knew what they were getting into unless they are total idiots.
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Professional Poster
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by aristotles
And you still don't get it. Movie sales drive the market. People are willing to spend thousands of dollars on a decent HDTV that will last them a while. HD DVD players vary in price based on features and performance. With Blu-ray, the profiles are a way of having product segmentation among different player models. If you don't give a crap about Pip, then you can save money on a Profile 1.0 player or you can pay a little more for a profile 1.1 player if you want pip. Not all TV's support pip through dual tuners so why do you expect all players to have all the same features?
Profile 1.1 standalone players are available for under 300 dollars and you are likely to save on the cost of titles that difference between 199 and the cost of the player after buying say 10 movies on blu-ray through sales and promotions. Unless you plan on only renting, your point is moot and renters are really not going to make a difference at all in this war.
Hardware sales only benefit the one CE while movie "sales" as opposed to rentals provide a direct benefit to the studios which drive the market and adoption. Content is king.
I've never seen anyone try to explain away an incomplete hardware specification like that. It's a feature, not a bug! Bravo.
|
All glory to the hypnotoad.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posting Junkie
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Portland, OR
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES
Hey I remember my first $1000 upconverting DVD platyer couldn't handle CD-R's.
Except uhhh... DVD players aren't technically supposed to handle CD-R's. Your DVD player was perfectly within spec.
|
|
8 Core 2.8 ghz Mac Pro/GF8800/2 23" Cinema Displays, 3.06 ghz Macbook Pro
Once you wanted revolution, now you're the institution, how's it feel to be the man?
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Professional Poster
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: T •
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by goMac
Except uhhh... DVD players aren't technically supposed to handle CD-R's. Your DVD player was perfectly within spec.
Except I knew that. Since I was an early adopter I knew what trouble I was getting into and so did BR users.
And guess what... they still won. So I guess it isn't a big issue considering even when it was out of spec and it had no PiP it still outsold HD over a year ago. If it wasn't a big deal when players were $1000 it sure as hell isn't going to be a big deal now. People aren't going to skip BR forever because of this so if it takes another 6 months it won't be an issue.
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posting Junkie
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Portland, OR
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES
Except I knew that. Since I was an early adopter I knew what trouble I was getting into and so did BR users.
And guess what... they still won. So I guess it isn't a big issue considering even when it was out of spec and it had no PiP it still outsold HD over a year ago. If it wasn't a big deal when players were $1000 it sure as hell isn't going to be a big deal now. People aren't going to skip BR forever because of this so if it takes another 6 months it won't be an issue.
See, here's the difference:
• DVD + CD-R Compatibility = Not part of the DVD spec
• Bluray + Profile 2.0 = Part of the Bluray spec
It's like buying a Bluray player and being upset that I can't play VCD's vs. buying a Bluray player and being upset I can't play everything on the latest titles.
|
|
8 Core 2.8 ghz Mac Pro/GF8800/2 23" Cinema Displays, 3.06 ghz Macbook Pro
Once you wanted revolution, now you're the institution, how's it feel to be the man?
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Illinois
Status:
Offline
|
|
Thanks for ignoring my original point about my DVD player not properly handling things that were in the DVD spec.
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Professional Poster
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: T •
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by goMac
See, here's the difference:
• DVD + CD-R Compatibility = Not part of the DVD spec
• Bluray + Profile 2.0 = Part of the Bluray spec
It's like buying a Bluray player and being upset that I can't play VCD's vs. buying a Bluray player and being upset I can't play everything on the latest titles.
Here is the point thought... it didn't make a difference 13 months ago and it sure as hell won't now.
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by goMac
But HD-DVD had all those features at a $199 price point (now fire sale $149). Why are those features so expensive on the Bluray side? I mean, half of them are just software and don't actually cost anything to add. And the cost of an Ethernet port? Not exactly expensive.
Nope. The HD DVD's from Toshiba (the only CE left) differentiate based on speed, DVD upscaling performance and 1080i versus 1080p ouput while all blu-ray players offer 1080p output. Ethernet is only useful if you have broadband and you either wired your living room with CAT 5e/6 or your computer is in your living room. Most consumers don't give a crap about it and have no interest in configuring their router to allow the player's MAC address. It is much easier for J6P to surf on a computer, burn the firmware to a CD-R, walk over to the living room and pop in the disc. Alternatively, they can just get their geeky relative to download and burn it for them.
PS. The 199 price point was already a firesale when you add in the free movies. Toshiba chased away their partners with below cost prices.
(
Last edited by aristotles; Jan 26, 2008 at 06:02 PM.
)
|
|
--
Aristotle
15" rMBP 2.7 Ghz ,16GB, 768GB SSD, 64GB iPhone 5 S⃣ 128GB iPad Air LTE
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by jokell82
I've never seen anyone try to explain away an incomplete hardware specification like that. It's a feature, not a bug! Bravo.
It is a feature since Profile 1.0 and 1.1 were finalized long ago. The two profiles existed but initially 1.0 was implemented because it was cheaper to manufacture and test. This kept the early adopter prices lower than they would have been with 1.1 hardware, the product reached the market sooner and it allowed for different tiers of product lines in the future.
Perhaps I have a better grasp of this concept as I works as a developer as I'm aware that software these days is developed using iterations where you can ship software in stages. You are advocating what we would call waterfall development in software. This latter approach has the disadvantage of long times between releases and the danger of delivering features that the customer does not care about.
An example of features that most people don't care about would be the whole online content/store features touted by HD DVD.
I have no doubt that BD Live will eventually find use once more people get broadband but even then, it will be a niche feature limited to a select few titles.
|
|
--
Aristotle
15" rMBP 2.7 Ghz ,16GB, 768GB SSD, 64GB iPhone 5 S⃣ 128GB iPad Air LTE
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Professional Poster
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by aristotles
Most consumers don't give a crap about it and have no interest in configuring their router to allow the player's MAC address. It is much easier for J6P to surf on a computer, burn the firmware to a CD-R, walk over to the living room and pop in the disc.
So wait, you think that J6P has his router configured to filter by MAC addresses and will go online in search of new firmware for his electronics devices????
|
All glory to the hypnotoad.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Professional Poster
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: T •
Status:
Offline
|
|
Ya now that I think about it I know almost ZERO people with ethernet cabling running around the house instead of Wifi. I also know that 100% of these people would not run a cable just to hook up to an HD-DVD player.
I even found it a huge inconvenience to run a cable to my Xbox 360 as it should have come with wireless.
I'd love to see the numbers of how many HD owners on stand alones hook up with ethernet.
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status:
Offline
|
|
J6P can't set up his HDDVD player to connect to net, but yet able to set up his computer to connect to the net and know how to burn an ISO to a CD-R?
All I have to do on my HDDVD player is go to the network menu and select HDCP. That's it. Most people with internet connection has a router these days.
|
|
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Professional Poster
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: T •
Status:
Offline
|
|
So is 1080p output not mandatory on HD?
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by jokell82
So wait, you think that J6P has his router configured to filter by MAC addresses and will go online in search of new firmware for his electronics devices????
If he cannot manage that, he will ask someone else to do it for him. So how is J6P supposed to get broadband in an area not served by either DSL or Cable internet?
|
|
--
Aristotle
15" rMBP 2.7 Ghz ,16GB, 768GB SSD, 64GB iPhone 5 S⃣ 128GB iPad Air LTE
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES
Ya now that I think about it I know almost ZERO people with ethernet cabling running around the house instead of Wifi. I also know that 100% of these people would not run a cable just to hook up to an HD-DVD player.
I even found it a huge inconvenience to run a cable to my Xbox 360 as it should have come with wireless.
I'd love to see the numbers of how many HD owners on stand alones hook up with ethernet.
+1
That is what makes the PS3 popular. It has WiFi making it easier to hook up if you already have a wireless router.
|
|
--
Aristotle
15" rMBP 2.7 Ghz ,16GB, 768GB SSD, 64GB iPhone 5 S⃣ 128GB iPad Air LTE
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES
So is 1080p output not mandatory on HD?
Nope. The HD-A1, HD-A2 and HD-A3 do not have 1080p output. Did I miss a model?
|
|
--
Aristotle
15" rMBP 2.7 Ghz ,16GB, 768GB SSD, 64GB iPhone 5 S⃣ 128GB iPad Air LTE
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Professional Poster
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by aristotles
If he cannot manage that, he will ask someone else to do it for him.
I can't believe you think that J6P even knows what a "firmware" is.
|
All glory to the hypnotoad.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by jokell82
I can't believe you think that J6P even knows what a "firmware" is.
When J6P opens up his Blu-ray disc, it might have a piece of paper telling him that the disc may require a firmware update. It is similar to what you might see in HD DVD cases. This will prompt J6P to ask what firmware is from his dealer or techie friends and ask whether it needs updating.
Nice try pal but HD DVD devices also require firmware updates and the process is not automatic or intuitive even with an ethernet cable.
|
|
--
Aristotle
15" rMBP 2.7 Ghz ,16GB, 768GB SSD, 64GB iPhone 5 S⃣ 128GB iPad Air LTE
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Fresh-Faced Recruit
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Georgia
Status:
Offline
|
|
Stop the war and let's unite into one - I don't care which one
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 46 & 2
Status:
Offline
|
|
It's no big deal, everyone gets firmware. You just pull on it for a while until it goes away.
****, I'm really drunk. 
|
|
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posting Junkie
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Portland, OR
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by aristotles
This will prompt J6P to ask what firmware is from his dealer or techie friends and ask whether it needs updating.
A good consumer device shouldn't require J6P to go to anyone to get a title to play. It's kind of absurd to at all assume this is a reasonable thing for a consumer to do.
|
|
8 Core 2.8 ghz Mac Pro/GF8800/2 23" Cinema Displays, 3.06 ghz Macbook Pro
Once you wanted revolution, now you're the institution, how's it feel to be the man?
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Professional Poster
Join Date: Aug 2001
Status:
Offline
|
|
|
|
|
"It's weird the way 'finger puppets' sounds ok as a noun..."
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Professional Poster
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by aristotles
When J6P opens up his Blu-ray disc, it might have a piece of paper telling him that the disc may require a firmware update. It is similar to what you might see in HD DVD cases. This will prompt J6P to ask what firmware is from his dealer or techie friends and ask whether it needs updating.
Nice try pal but HD DVD devices also require firmware updates and the process is not automatic or intuitive even with an ethernet cable.
Who said anything about HD DVD?
And if he's like anyone I know, J6P will skip right over the ads and other papers in his new case, pull out the disc, and try to watch.
And if it doesn't work he won't go searching for answers, he'll return it to the store and complain.
|
All glory to the hypnotoad.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Professional Poster
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: T •
Status:
Offline
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: South Detroit
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by cjrivera
that's very funny!
|
I love the U.S., but we need some time apart.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by goMac
A good consumer device shouldn't require J6P to go to anyone to get a title to play. It's kind of absurd to at all assume this is a reasonable thing for a consumer to do.
This has been a common issue for both formats. Going forward, I don't see this being such an issue with newer models.
I tried updating the firmware by the internet on my HD-A2 but gave up because of the unintuitive UI and server time outs so I resorted to going to toshiba's site and downloading the firmware from my mac to burn on a CD-R.
|
|
--
Aristotle
15" rMBP 2.7 Ghz ,16GB, 768GB SSD, 64GB iPhone 5 S⃣ 128GB iPad Air LTE
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Caught in a web of deceit.
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by aristotles
This has been a common issue for both formats.
Yes it has.
Going forward, I don't see this being such an issue with newer models.
I do, at least in 2008 and probably 2009. Maybe not so much after 2010 though.
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status:
Offline
|
|
Blu-ray: Free Blu-ray Players Boosted Numbers, by Rachel Cericola - Electronic House Product News
Free Blu-ray Players Boosted Numbers
NPD spills the real deal on their report, and Toshiba talks about its disappointing sales numbers.
January 25, 2008 | by Rachel Cericola
Tech sites turned into battlegrounds again this week, when stats from an NPD report about Blu-ray sales were made public—and weren’t supposed to be. Now NPD is speaking out.
Although the report was not ready for release, it stated (via BetaNews) that Blu-ray sales accounted for 93 percent of the high-def market during the week of January 12. NPD doesn’t say that the numbers are false, but admits that one week’s sales are hardly a long-term indicator.
They also said that deals that bundled free Blu-ray players with TVs had a lot to do with the jump for Blu-ray. Sharp and Panasonic both had offers; Sony alone offered $400 off the two together.
Blu-ray: HD DVD: A Demise Greatly Exaggerated?, opinion by Cindy Davis - Electronic House Info and Answers
(
Last edited by Chongo; Jan 27, 2008 at 02:14 PM.
)
|
|
45/47
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Professional Poster
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: T •
Status:
Offline
|
|
" NPD doesn’t say that the numbers are false, but admits that one week’s sales are hardly a long-term indicator."
I am sure it will be back to 40/70 next week 
"They also said that deals that bundled free Blu-ray players with TVs had a lot to do with the jump for Blu-ray. Sharp and Panasonic both had offers; Sony alone offered $400 off the two together."
Ya Toshiba never had any sort of deals on HD's did they? 
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Union County, NJ
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by cjrivera
Someone please timeline that.
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status:
Offline
|
|
|
|
|
45/47
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Professional Poster
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by Chongo
|
All glory to the hypnotoad.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posting Junkie
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Portland, OR
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by aristotles
This has been a common issue for both formats.
I know, and I don't feel either format is currently consumer ready.
Originally Posted by aristotles
Going forward, I don't see this being such an issue with newer models.
We'll see. I think there will be another round of updates when BR2.0 comes out and probably when Bluray is next cracked.
|
|
8 Core 2.8 ghz Mac Pro/GF8800/2 23" Cinema Displays, 3.06 ghz Macbook Pro
Once you wanted revolution, now you're the institution, how's it feel to be the man?
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: South Detroit
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by starman
Someone please timeline that.
I really think if anyone knew about that video it would have been posted in this thread dude!
|
I love the U.S., but we need some time apart.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Professional Poster
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by mrtew
I really think if anyone knew about that video it would have been posted in this thread dude!
It was - over a week ago when the video was released.
|
All glory to the hypnotoad.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: South Detroit
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by jokell82
It was - over a week ago when the video was released.
No it wasn't. You probably post constantly in a lot of other HD-DVD threads.
|
I love the U.S., but we need some time apart.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Illinois
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by mrtew
No it wasn't. You probably post constantly in a lot of other HD-DVD threads.
Analogue Sprinkles posted it on the 15th, but it's not like it's that old. Not everyone can read every post in the thread.
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Professional Poster
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by mrtew
No it wasn't. You probably post constantly in a lot of other HD-DVD threads.
Found it. And this is the only hi def thread I participate in on any forum.
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES
|
All glory to the hypnotoad.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Professional Poster
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: T •
Status:
Offline
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status:
Offline
|
|
I think that clip was posted no less than 5 times on this thread. It's funny though.
|
|
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Professional Poster
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: South Detroit
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by hyteckit
I think that clip was posted no less than 5 times on this thread. It's funny though.
No it wasn't. You probably post constantly in a lot of other HD-DVD threads.
|
I love the U.S., but we need some time apart.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Professional Poster
Join Date: Aug 2001
Status:
Offline
|
|
Sorry for posting it again.... didn't see it the first time.
|
|
"It's weird the way 'finger puppets' sounds ok as a noun..."
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Louisiana
Status:
Offline
|
|
Can't this thread just die along with HD-DVD?
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Professional Poster
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by mrtew
No it wasn't. You probably post constantly in a lot of other HD-DVD threads.
Heh. Well played.
|
All glory to the hypnotoad.
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Professional Poster
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: T •
Status:
Offline
|
|
|
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Professional Poster
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Why do you care?
Status:
Offline
|
|
Originally Posted by goMac
I know, and I don't feel either format is currently consumer ready.
They are ready enough for me and I'm a consumer. You forgot to qualify your post by saying "average consumer". 
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 
|
|
|
Forum Rules
|
|
|
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Top