[Xtopolop]

Originally posted by KellyHogan:
<STRONG>


The Gracie family have a great record. I trained throughout my teens in various martial arts but prefer Boxing (so did Bruce Lee). My last instructor was Bob Breen who was Dan Inosanto's student who was Bruce Lee's student. Then I went on to power-lifting and then gave that up when I got too big and found that it doesn't actually take you anywhere.

I have come across people who claim to be teaching Jeet Kune Do and yet they are not affiliated with anyone. Jeet Kune Do is a concept, not a martial art. Thus my last instructor never claimed to be teaching JKD, only a modern combat system.

Bruce himself was not a great fighter and never actually proved himself. He never claimed to be what some people associate him with. He was more a philosopher. Even a lot of those stories of him punching and kicking people one mile into the air are myths, he was only 130 pounds and was hospitalized for one year lifting a 125 pound barbell. I can do that with one hand and I don't claim to be invincibile. But he did what he did well and revolutionized his art.</STRONG>

Did you ever get a chance to train with Danny Inosanto? It would be weird training with someone in a pink ghi . Does he still offer anyone a $1000 check if they can defeat him?

Power lifting? How did you move from martial arts to power lifting? Was the intent to increase your abilities as a martial artist? Power lifting can only stiffen you up. We had a power lifter at our dojo... on a good day he could bend over and touch his shins . The only time he ever admitted to being in pain was when he tore his rotator cup!!

What you said about JKD is very true, thank you for debunking that common misconception.
JKD is the art of combat and is based on principles, not techniques.

While he may not have claimed to be what he is associated with, he did prove himself and his ideology in Japan, to a number of masters of a variety of arts.

Is Kali closely related to Eskrima? Both are stick fighting arts from the Philippines. I have trained in eskrima, as well as eskrido (the armed, disarming counterpart). Both deal with two sticks, combination of stick and dagger and open handed techniques. I'm not sure, but could it be that they are one and the same? If not could you enlighten me as to when/where they deviated from an older art?

[KellyHogan]

Originally posted by Xtopolop:
<STRONG>

Did you ever get a chance to train with Danny Inosanto? It would be weird training with someone in a pink ghi . Does he still offer anyone a $1000 check if they can defeat him?

Power lifting? How did you move from martial arts to power lifting? Was the intent to increase your abilities as a martial artist? Power lifting can only stiffen you up. We had a power lifter at our dojo... on a good day he could bend over and touch his shins . The only time he ever admitted to being in pain was when he tore his rotator cup!!

What you said about JKD is very true, thank you for debunking that common misconception.
JKD is the art of combat and is based on principles, not techniques.

While he may not have claimed to be what he is associated with, he did prove himself and his ideology in Japan, to a number of masters of a variety of arts.

Is Kali closely related to Eskrima? Both are stick fighting arts from the Philippines. I have trained in eskrima, as well as eskrido (the armed, disarming counterpart). Both deal with two sticks, combination of stick and dagger and open handed techniques. I'm not sure, but could it be that they are one and the same? If not could you enlighten me as to when/where they deviated from an older art?</STRONG>

I never met Inosanto personally. He's old. Powerlifting I did because I lifted weights since 12 years old and had all those strength competitions with friends at school. It was natural to try it out. It doesn't make you stiff though. A bigger muscle is more flexible than a smaller muscle. For martial arts it is perfect but not for something like Yoga or ballet which requires more range of movement. A body builder/power lifter might be able to do the splits but he won't be able to touch his hands behind his back for example.

Kali is part of the same Filipino family of martial arts as Escrima and Arnis. The movements are closer to classical boxing though.

Regarding Bruce Lee, he stayed away from people better than him. There was one American Italian in California who was just awesome (can't remember his name). Damn good. Bruce never tried to spar with him and instead sparred with other small oriental guys or guys like Chuck Norris and Bob Wall who were stiffs. Joe Lewis once challenged him to a fight on his front lawn (because he thought Bruce was sleeping with his wife) but Bruce never came out. There is also one Shotokan master who slaimed to have beaten him in a private bout. Forgot his name too! It's been years.

[Xtopolop]

Originally posted by KellyHogan:
<STRONG>

I never met Inosanto personally. He's old. Powerlifting I did because I lifted weights since 12 years old and had all those strength competitions with friends at school. It was natural to try it out. It doesn't make you stiff though. A bigger muscle is more flexible than a smaller muscle. For martial arts it is perfect but not for something like Yoga or ballet which requires more range of movement. A body builder/power lifter might be able to do the splits but he won't be able to touch his hands behind his back for example.

Kali is part of the same Filipino family of martial arts as Escrima and Arnis. The movements are closer to classical boxing though.

Regarding Bruce Lee, he stayed away from people better than him. There was one American Italian in California who was just awesome (can't remember his name). Damn good. Bruce never tried to spar with him and instead sparred with other small oriental guys or guys like Chuck Norris and Bob Wall who were stiffs. Joe Lewis once challenged him to a fight on his front lawn (because he thought Bruce was sleeping with his wife) but Bruce never came out. There is also one Shotokan master who slaimed to have beaten him in a private bout. Forgot his name too! It's been years.</STRONG>

Ahh... Kali, the western boxing of the Filipino stick arts! Heh. That was also some interesting stuff on Bruce Lee. If you could, the name of the Italian American would be most intriguing. Same goes for the Shotokan master .

[daimoni]

.

[Xtopolop]

Originally posted by daimoni:
<STRONG>Wow, guys... it has been a real pleasure to read this thread.

I'm personally very interested in the topic of martial arts and self defense. I've only had a few lessons in Aikido... but I threw my back out while learning to fall - and couldn't get up for nearly an hour! Ouch!

Well, that was a couple of years ago... and the only thing I've really done since was Yoga (which I enjoyed very much). Too bad my life is so hectic lately (work, wife and two small kids, etc.) that I haven't really kept up with that, either. Yes, I know. I suck.

Anyway, it seems to me that before I even consider practicing a martial art again, I need to have a certain amount of physical conditioning/flexibility before I get on the mat.

What do you guys think?</STRONG>

I think that you're never too old, too inflexible, or too out of shape to be doing martial arts. Where do you think you gain flexibility, and get in shape??? I, for one, will continue doing it for the rest of my life! Almost any person, male or female, of any age can participate in martial arts. Might be good/fun for the kids too. I know you live in the area, so I'll private message you some info if you'd like. If my dojo isn't what you're looking for, I can assure you that you will be pointed in the right direction.

[Miniryu]

Originally posted by Xtopolop:
<STRONG>

While my knowledge on Hankido is somewhat limited. It is better suited for street defense than Aikido. Even if you have used it, and have been successful with it, it does not mean that it is a combative art. When I say combative, I mean geared towards a real life threatening situation. Just like someone saying TKD is a good art for self defense.
Most people will say that their style is suited for certain situations, street fights being one of them. How else do you think these huge everything goes/open style tournaments started?

I'd love to hear your story!! With a hankido background, sounds like you threw 'em down and locked 'em up pretty good .</STRONG>

See, I agree with you that TKD is not useful as a means of self-defense in a truely threatening situation. My ex was incredible at TKD; I used to spar her friends a lot and as soon as the TKD tourney rules were thrown out the window the style is basically flash. I mean, the kicks are cake to catch since they are not used to people trying to cath them; they don't know how to fall if they are thrown; they don't know how to grapple on the ground once they are put there; they don't know how to punch effectively; and they don't even practice low kicks. Of course these are all generalizations made about American TKD that I have had experience with- I'm sure somebody will be able to debate me on this. As a sport, (as fun as it is) I get my ass kicked in TKD.

I would argue that Hankido is geared towards threatening situations: it is commonly taught in self-defense classes at a local comunity or womens center, for exammple. The first moves are evasive- I practiced a lot avoiding/bocking a right cross, for example. Pressure points are emphasized, locks, chokes, grabs, throws; all stuff you would use if you were attacked in close quarters. As far as being charged in a split-second moment you can't lose with a groin kick or taking out the front knee.

As far as the situation where I used it- I was coming back with a lady friend of mine from a party during my senior year of college. It was senior week on campus and this one european cafe was still open at 3:00 am. A buch of the local junkies were hanging around the street drinking. One of them thought he was a smart @$$ and threw a heavy metal chair threw the cafe window (while people were eating there). He was a fat kid, but he still tried to run away with his friends. The store owner ran out and tackled him. A few of the other merchant (the street usually stays open pretty late during grad week) came out of their stores after calling the police. They tried to form a circle around the dude to keep him from running away befor e they could put him into custody. A bunch of the guy's junkie friends went up to the merchants and spoke straight in their face, telling them that "he didn't do anything, let him go" The dude kept trying to walk away while his friends slowly made a screen for him. My friend and I followed as both parties walked down the street. Suddenly the dude made a break and got passed the merchants, so I charged after him. Two of his friends tried to get in my face, mid-stride I nailed the first guy in the groin with a front snap kick. After tripping a bit on him as he fell the second guy threw a punch aimed at my face. I reversed it and threw him with a sloppy hip throw. I took off after the dude (he was fat, remember) takled him, pinning one of his arms behind his back. By this point his friends had caught up with him, joined by more. They started kicking me in the ribs so got off of him. I was able to lands a solid palm-heel strike before the merchants were there and some other people to break it up. In all the commotion the guy got away, but the cops picked up a group of his friends for assisting in his escape (when they finally showed up).

I should note that I was slightly intoxicated and didn't feel any pain until the next day. Also, I had just tested for my upper blue belt a few days before, so a lot of stuff was fresh in my head.

[ 01-27-2002: Message edited by: Miniryu ]

[KellyHogan]

Hapkido.

[Miniryu]

Originally posted by KellyHogan:
<STRONG>Hapkido.</STRONG>

Hapkido and Hankido are different things, the difference between them is mostly political. Hankido will have you throw your opponent or put his arm in a lock, Hapkido will simply have you break your opponents arm at the elbow. The difference is basically dependent on how your instuctor teaches one the techniques.

[ 01-27-2002: Message edited by: Miniryu ]

[olePigeon]

I trained for a some odd years (don't remember how long) at Shotokan Karate Do under Sensei Laferty and also under Kenith Funokoshi himself, the great grandson of THE Funokoshi who started Shotokan. My mom got to visit their dojo in Hawai'i, the first dojo in the states.

I got my 1st degree purple belt and then stopped. I've always regretted not going for at least my 1st degree black belt. I'm going to be taking Shotokan again because a fellow student is now teaching it at my college. Gonna be a hoot.

The best way I can discribe Shotokan is that it's about well placed, strong, and accurate attacks and routines. Shouldn't take you more than one or two shots to take someone out. Well ballanced in both offensive and defensive moves.

I think my sensei descibes it the best:

"Anyone ever watch those Kung Fu movies? You know, they're doing all that fancy fighting. Throwing punches and kicks, flipping around, exchanging 30 or 40 hits, falling down, getting back up. The reason they don't use Shotokan in movies is very simple: one hit, they're down. That would make an extremely boring movie."

[skylight]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
<STRONG>

"Anyone ever watch those Kung Fu movies? You know, they're doing all that fancy fighting. Throwing punches and kicks, flipping around, exchanging 30 or 40 hits, falling down, getting back up. The reason they don't use Shotokan in movies is very simple: one hit, they're down. That would make an extremely boring movie." </STRONG>

Same goes for Wing Tsun. Got this from my Instructor a while back when I trained. The 3 Steps in a confrontation.
1. Try talking you out of it
2. Try leaving the place
3. If steps 1 and 2 don't work and violence must be used ,use the Wing Tsun and kick some ass.Then use step 2


Any one elese familiar with the Wing Tsun style ?

[Xtopolop]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
<STRONG>I trained for a some odd years (don't remember how long) at Shotokan Karate Do under Sensei Laferty and also under Kenith Funokoshi himself, the great grandson of THE Funokoshi who started Shotokan. My mom got to visit their dojo in Hawai'i, the first dojo in the states.

I got my 1st degree purple belt and then stopped. I've always regretted not going for at least my 1st degree black belt. I'm going to be taking Shotokan again because a fellow student is now teaching it at my college. Gonna be a hoot.

The best way I can discribe Shotokan is that it's about well placed, strong, and accurate attacks and routines. Shouldn't take you more than one or two shots to take someone out. Well ballanced in both offensive and defensive moves.

I think my sensei descibes it the best:

"Anyone ever watch those Kung Fu movies? You know, they're doing all that fancy fighting. Throwing punches and kicks, flipping around, exchanging 30 or 40 hits, falling down, getting back up. The reason they don't use Shotokan in movies is very simple: one hit, they're down. That would make an extremely boring movie." </STRONG>

Ahhh... Shotokan .

That's very true, it should only take a few moves to disable a person, and then possibly one more move to completely incapacitate them. While you may have been taught to believe your reverse punch is the end-all to any attacker, I beg to differ. Have you ever hit a heavy bag with your reverse punch? Most traditional Shotokan schools do not hit things (bags, makiwara, etc.). In the "olden days" Shotokan practitioners used to train on bags full of sand, developing a truly deadly punch. The one punch philosophy worked for them, but does not directly translate to today's Shotokan students. There are other reasons that it isn't the art you believe it is. Shotokan stiffens people up. This is true for any hard-style art. There is also the question about the front stance. After training day in and day out, doing your reverse punches in a front stance, and your kicks in a front stance, it becomes ingrained in you. Do you realize how easy it is to have your front leg broken in that stance? And mobility as well... in a front stance, it is difficult to move side to side. You are also exposing the largest surface area to your opponent in a front stance, and if you get hit in the gut, you'll fold over. When using your reverse punch, the head is left wide open. Imagine throwing a front punch at a boxer!

On a more historical note, the art I study, Okinawa-Te was the precursor to both Shotokan Karate-Do and Wado-Ryu Karate-Do. "THE (Gichin) Funokoshi you speak of started modern day Karate with his demonstration in the Mesei Juku in Tokyo in July of 1922. Even though he founded Shotokan Karate-Do, he was originally an Okinawa-Te practitioner.

[nonhuman]

Originally posted by Xtopolop:
<STRONG>On a more historical note, the art I study, Okinawa-Te was the precursor to both Shotokan Karate-Do and Wado-Ryu Karate-Do. "THE (Gichin) Funokoshi you speak of started modern day Karate with his demonstration in the Mesei Juku in Tokyo in July of 1922. Even though he founded Shotokan Karate-Do, he was originally an Okinawa-Te practitioner.</STRONG>

That's why it sounded so familiar...

[godzappa]

Jeet Kune Do here, JKD Unlimited branch

[kertong]

Originally posted by skylight:
<STRONG>

Any one elese familiar with the Wing Tsun style ?</STRONG>

Yup, took it here with AWTO for about an year, working on Siu Lum Tao most of the time.

Its philosophy is pretty neat. A bit like boxing and aikido combined, if I had to describe it that way. All attacks coming at you are deflected by your attack, so your attack is a simultaneous attack/defense. Rooting yourself is key, so that you can stay rooted to the ground and deflect any incoming attack easily without too much footwork and movement, and to also give your attacks more power.

If you saw the "ideal" wing tsun demo, it'd be a big guy swinging a large, wide, roundhose punch to the WT guy's head. The WT guy would quickly step *into* the punch, towards the attacker, and out of the incoming punch's range.

Also, while he is stepping into the punch, he uses his forward momentum, and "adds" a quick punch into it. The punch shoots forward, and more force is behind it since his whole body is also moving foward. At the same time that the punch flies out, a kick would also be flying out at the attacker's groin.

But, as soon as the two connect, he's established his "center line" - he is on the shortest, straightest path to the attacker. As long as he maintains control over that center line, all of his attacks will connect, and arrive sooner than any other attack the attacker throws. Now that's all really basic wing tsun - the complexity comes in when something occupies your centerline. A lot of WT is techniques used to try to maintan control of the centerline and keep the attacks coming.

And after they connect, you don't strike, back off, and hop around like a stereotypical TKD/Boxer practitioner might. You keep pressing on - throw more punches, more kicks. You also take the initiative, move into his space aggressively, and don't let up until he's down for the count. Its not like boxing or tkd where you hop around, fake, parry, hop around some more, etc. If you fake at a skilled WT practitioner, you'd probably find yourself instantly on the ground.

I don't know how else to describe WT, that's a really long, confusing explanation. But its something that's really hard to describe - it takes some time to totally understand the WT concept.

Its an interesting art - but it takes years of practice. YEARs. And you have to be impeccable with your timing, angles, and location, or nothing will work. Its tough.

[Gee4orce]

Well, as I said, I did my first Wing Chun class last week. It was actually the 3rd week of the class, so I had a bit of catching up to do.

What did I think ? Well, in one word -- fantastic !

I was really impressed with how direct it is. No fannying around - get straight in there, get close, get closer. Even after 1 lesson I can see how it really has direct, realistic application; unlike Karate, which takes months before you feel confident that it might work in a real fight (and even then, I'd think twice about a Karate kick in a brawl).

The most obvious difference is the totally different way of punching. Karate punch = first two knuckles, palm down. Wing Chun = bottom three knuckles, palm vertical. Needless to say, the Wing Chun punch is much faster, and I feel, much stronger (as you have a straight wrist).

The on-guard position (hands open, occupying the centreline) makes sense too, making your attacker either go around it (slow) or go through it (deflect or grab).

[Xtopolop]

Originally posted by Gee4orce:
<STRONG>Well, as I said, I did my first Wing Chun class last week. It was actually the 3rd week of the class, so I had a bit of catching up to do.

What did I think ? Well, in one word -- fantastic !

I was really impressed with how direct it is. No fannying around - get straight in there, get close, get closer. Even after 1 lesson I can see how it really has direct, realistic application; unlike Karate, which takes months before you feel confident that it might work in a real fight (and even then, I'd think twice about a Karate kick in a brawl).

The most obvious difference is the totally different way of punching. Karate punch = first two knuckles, palm down. Wing Chun = bottom three knuckles, palm vertical. Needless to say, the Wing Chun punch is much faster, and I feel, much stronger (as you have a straight wrist).

The on-guard position (hands open, occupying the centreline) makes sense too, making your attacker either go around it (slow) or go through it (deflect or grab).</STRONG>

That's great!! I believe Bruce Lee started his formal training in Wing Chun. The small amount I have been exposed to has been very intriguing. Eventually when I have time, I'd like to explore this art more in depth.

If you're looking for something that will help increase your odds in a brawl, take up boxing, honest. While martial arts can be nice, a lot of styles teach control... and in a brawl you might use that control out of habit. I would much rather fight a black belt in karate, than a boxer.

Regarding punches: different punches are better suited for different situations. The vertical punch is quicker, but not as powerful as the horizontal punch. It is also better suited as a defensive technique. When you throw a vertical punch, you can bring your arm back (elbow down) faster to block/defend your short ribs. The horizontal punch is stronger because as you roll your hand over, it creates more power. That's why Karate uses a reverse punch for their one-hit-kills philosophy. Going from the most relaxed state to the least relaxed state is what maximizes the power in your punch. (note: a boxer's cross is a horizontal punch as well)

As for punching with your smallest three knuckles, I would HIGHLY recommend against it. The first two are the largest and line up best with the bone structure in your arm. The smaller two can easily be broken, and do not line up nearly as well. As for your wrists, if executed properly, during both punches, your wrist should line up just fine. Developing your wrist strength goes a long way towards improving your punch. Try doing pushups on your knuckles (just the first two). Another way to strengthen your wrists is to get a bow staff and hold it vertically from the very bottom of the staff with your arm oustretched in front of you. Very slowly turn your wrist until the staff is horizontal. Pause there for about 10 seconds, then go back to upright, and then down on the other side.

The fighting stance sounds good, do they want you to keep one hand up higher than the other, or at the same level? With both hands down, remember to watch your head .

[smacintush]

Bruce himself was not a great fighter and never actually proved himself. He never claimed to be what some people associate him with. He was more a philosopher. Even a lot of those stories of him punching and kicking people one mile into the air are myths, he was only 130 pounds and was hospitalized for one year lifting a 125 pound barbell. I can do that with one hand and I don't claim to be invincibile. But he did what he did well and revolutionized his art.

Now you are spreading untruth. Bruce Lee proved himself plenty. There have plenty of times where he was challenged by macho stuntmen or some militant chinese punk and wiped the floor with them. He didn't go out of his way to prove himself publicly, which is the way it should be. Yes he was a philosopher, but he was a great athlete and a great fighter also. The whole problem is that people seem to think that because he was Bruce Lee, he was infallible. He wasn't and neither is ANY great fighter. Yeah, sometimes he got his ass kicked, usually he kicked the ass though. He was human after all.

Regarding Bruce Lee, he stayed away from people better than him. There was one American Italian in California who was just awesome (can't remember his name). Damn good. Bruce never tried to spar with him and instead sparred with other small oriental guys or guys like Chuck Norris and Bob Wall who were stiffs. Joe Lewis once challenged him to a fight on his front lawn (because he thought Bruce was sleeping with his wife) but Bruce never came out. There is also one Shotokan master who slaimed to have beaten him in a private bout. Forgot his name too! It's been years.

These are all just unfounded rumors. Joe Lewis is a loud mouth jerk-off that has been talking smack for years. He is tough, sure, but he is a big overrated dumb loudmouth jerk. Shotokan who? Yeah, I've heard those stories before. If I say I beat up Bruce Lee, does that mean it is true? Funny these clowns are capitalizing on these stories AFTER he is dead. Joe Lewis was in awe of Bruce back in the day, now he talks shit.

JKD and Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu (Masaaki Hatsumi, not that Stephen Hayes moron) for 14 years here. No, no real fights. I avoid them skillfully. I guess I must be a poor fighter because I have never really proven myself.

[olePigeon]

Originally posted by Xtopolop:
<STRONG>On a more historical note, the art I study, Okinawa-Te was the precursor to both Shotokan Karate-Do and Wado-Ryu Karate-Do. "THE (Gichin) Funokoshi you speak of started modern day Karate with his demonstration in the Mesei Juku in Tokyo in July of 1922. Even though he founded Shotokan Karate-Do, he was originally an Okinawa-Te practitioner.</STRONG>

That's pretty neet, I didn't know about that.

On a side note, I noticed that Ken & Ryu on the Street Fighter game use Shotokan.

No, we can't throw fireballs. But there is a "dragon" punch that you use in the 4th or 5th kata (don't remember which.) You start with a crouch, uppercut behind you, then thrust forward and spin upwards in another uppercut (like in the game) and back down in a cross block from a low attack. From there you grapple (one of the very few grapples in Shotokan) and take down.

Kinda funny cuz our Sensei had two bamboo sticks (been so long I don't remember what they were called) and he'd swing one of them under your feet when you jump, then again at your shins after the uppercut. Unless you did it right, 1 of 2 things happened: You didn't jump high enough and you fall on your ass after the stick hits you, or you fall on your ass anyway cuz your shins hurt like hell.

Which wasn't too bad cuz we used to have carpeting. But then he went to hardwood floors. OUCH! Hehe.

[Xtopolop]

Originally posted by olePigeon:
<STRONG>

That's pretty neet, I didn't know about that.

On a side note, I noticed that Ken & Ryu on the Street Fighter game use Shotokan.

No, we can't throw fireballs. But there is a "dragon" punch that you use in the 4th or 5th kata (don't remember which.) You start with a crouch, uppercut behind you, then thrust forward and spin upwards in another uppercut (like in the game) and back down in a cross block from a low attack. From there you grapple (one of the very few grapples in Shotokan) and take down.

Kinda funny cuz our Sensei had two bamboo sticks (been so long I don't remember what they were called) and he'd swing one of them under your feet when you jump, then again at your shins after the uppercut. Unless you did it right, 1 of 2 things happened: You didn't jump high enough and you fall on your ass after the stick hits you, or you fall on your ass anyway cuz your shins hurt like hell.

Which wasn't too bad cuz we used to have carpeting. But then he went to hardwood floors. OUCH! Hehe.</STRONG>

Yea, I know a little bit about Shotokan . You said one of the very few grapples in Shotokan... there are much more in the upper levels. It's either at the brown belt level, or first dan that you get into ground fighting/grappling in Shotokan.

The bamboo sticks are called shinai. They're great for conditioning! He should hit you with them all the time, not just when you're doing kata . I used to condition my legs with them, but not so much any more. You get quite a few strange looks when you're wailing away on your shins with a bamboo sword... even in a dojo!!

I know what you mean about the floors man... we grapple on hardwood sometimes. It's great fun, and results in lots of bruising.

[Xtopolop]

Originally posted by smacintush:
<STRONG>
No, no real fights. I avoid them skillfully. I guess I must be a poor fighter because I have never really proven myself.</STRONG>

No, if you are a Ninjitsu practitioner, you f*cked up if you have to actually touch the person .

[Gee4orce]

Originally posted by Xtopolop:
<STRONG>

If you're looking for something that will help increase your odds in a brawl, take up boxing, honest. While martial arts can be nice, a lot of styles teach control... and in a brawl you might use that control out of habit. I would much rather fight a black belt in karate, than a boxer.

</STRONG>

I actually used to practice Sport Karate, which is a combination of Wado Ryu and boxing. Basically, you have a very tight guard around your face, and a boxer's footwork. In practice, the tight guard is more of a hinderance, as you can't see attacks as well, and such a close guard doesn't actually protect you much unless you are wearing gloves.

I see what you mean, about inadvertanly pulling punches -- I don't really think that's much of a danger. Again, Sport Karate involved a lot of semi/full contact sparring, and with Wing Chun I intend to do a lot of bare knuckle bag work.

<STRONG>

Regarding punches: different punches are better suited for different situations. The vertical punch is quicker, but not as powerful as the horizontal punch. It is also better suited as a defensive technique. When you throw a vertical punch, you can bring your arm back (elbow down) faster to block/defend your short ribs. The horizontal punch is stronger because as you roll your hand over, it creates more power. That's why Karate uses a reverse punch for their one-hit-kills philosophy. Going from the most relaxed state to the least relaxed state is what maximizes the power in your punch. (note: a boxer's cross is a horizontal punch as well)
</STRONG>

You can also 'roll' the hand just before impact with a vertical knuckle punch -- this is how bruce did the legendary '1-inch punch'. I honestly don't think there's much difference as far as power goes - don't forget that the power of a reverse punch comes from the fact it's thrown with the rear fist, and is driven by body movement. Anyway, I'm talking more about the 'jab' punch here, which makes up 80%+ of all that you throw.

The most powerful puch I ever threw was a reverse spinning backfist - imagine reaching around backwards with your rear arm to strike the target infront of you. The target was a guy about my size holding an air-bag (which normally soak up anything). I knocked him off his feet, and about 5 foot to the right !

<STRONG>

As for punching with your smallest three knuckles, I would HIGHLY recommend against it. The first two are the largest and line up best with the bone structure in your arm. The smaller two can easily be broken, and do not line up nearly as well. As for your wrists, if executed properly, during both punches, your wrist should line up just fine. Developing your wrist strength goes a long way towards improving your punch. Try doing pushups on your knuckles (just the first two). Another way to strengthen your wrists is to get a bow staff and hold it vertically from the very bottom of the staff with your arm oustretched in front of you. Very slowly turn your wrist until the staff is horizontal. Pause there for about 10 seconds, then go back to upright, and then down on the other side.
</STRONG>

Maybe for you, but I have oversized first knuckles that are large and bony -- they would hurt if you got hit, but I'm more likely to hurt or break them. To get them in line, I have to **** my wrist too much. The three knuckle punch is much more natural for me. (FWIW, this was Bruce Lee's recommended technique too).

As for wrist training I've done plenty. A good method is to get a short rod (like a dumbell bar), tie a string to it and to a small weight. Now, hold your arms out infront, and twist the bar to roll up the string until the weight is all the way to the top. Them lower it down again.

<STRONG>

The fighting stance sounds good, do they want you to keep one hand up higher than the other, or at the same level? With both hands down, remember to watch your head .</STRONG>

eg, left stance: left foot forward, weight on rear foot, both feet pointing about 45 degrees to right. Shoulders fairly square-on, hands open left arm half extended towards opponent, right arm across body, palm near upper part of left arm.

[Gee4orce]

LOL ! I said 'c-o-c-k' as in "c-o-c-k a gun" and the UBB **** it out because it thought I meant c-o-c-k as in dick!

[lucylawless]

Originally posted by Gee4orce:
<STRONG>LOL ! I said 'c-o-c-k' as in "c-o-c-k a gun" and the UBB **** it out because it thought I meant c-o-c-k as in dick!</STRONG>

sure, and we're supposed to just take your word that you weren't trying to dick your wrist...

[Xtopolop]

Originally posted by Gee4orce:
<STRONG>I actually used to practice Sport Karate, which is a combination of Wado Ryu and boxing. Basically, you have a very tight guard around your face, and a boxer's footwork. In practice, the tight guard is more of a hinderance, as you can't see attacks as well, and such a close guard doesn't actually protect you much unless you are wearing gloves.

I see what you mean, about inadvertanly pulling punches -- I don't really think that's much of a danger. Again, Sport Karate involved a lot of semi/full contact sparring, and with Wing Chun I intend to do a lot of bare knuckle bag work.
</STRONG>

When I said you should consider boxing, I was talking about hitting the local boxing gym, not sport Karate. You shouldn't hold a tight guard, you may very well be knocked out by your own hand. It certainly is a hinderance as well. You should keep your front hand out a little to encroach on your opponent's space (works best if you're tall and long of limb). You shouldn't block with your hands when you're bareknuckles, instead you should "shield" with your arm. You can absorb the blow of a kick to the head that way. Mostly I was suggesting boxing (or Thai boxing) because they condition you the best to take hits. You're taught to seriously take a heavy beating and keep on attacking. The matches are fought in rounds as well, which means you have to be able to take a sustained beating.

Pulling punches was just because I was not aware that you had previous experience . It's not a problem if you know how to train yourself to follow through. Bag work is great!! If you don't bleed on the bag, you haven't worked out . I can still remember going to school with bloody knuckles from my first week on a 150 lb banana bag. Not being able to use your pockets for a week sucks! Sport Karate may involve some contact, but the point sparring is ridiculous as far as contact goes. You don't even have to make contact to score a point some times. The heavy contact is where it's at for more realistic training.

<STRONG>You can also 'roll' the hand just before impact with a vertical knuckle punch -- this is how bruce did the legendary '1-inch punch'. I honestly don't think there's much difference as far as power goes - don't forget that the power of a reverse punch comes from the fact it's thrown with the rear fist, and is driven by body movement. Anyway, I'm talking more about the 'jab' punch here, which makes up 80%+ of all that you throw.

The most powerful puch I ever threw was a reverse spinning backfist - imagine reaching around backwards with your rear arm to strike the target infront of you. The target was a guy about my size holding an air-bag (which normally soak up anything). I knocked him off his feet, and about 5 foot to the right !</STRONG>

The power of the reverse punch does not only come from the body. While that is a large factor, the fact that you are going from relaxed to tense also plays a large part. A reverse punch is not "driven through" the same way a right-cross is though. You are very upright when doing a reverse punch. Form is very important, and it is maintained throughout the punch, where as a boxer will lean into it a lot more, using his hips for the most power. When I was considering power in a punch, I was refering to rear hand punches (vertical and horizontal). The rear hand is where the most power is generated, so that would amplify the effect. The jab is not a power punch to begin with. While you can knock someone out with it if you develop it, it is mainly used for distancing and disturbing an opponents guard (in boxing). Ideally you're using it to set yourself up for that finishing cross! It makes up 80% of what you throw in what application? In a boxing ring? In a street fight? When/where? The spinning backfist... I agree, that has to be the most powerful hand technique that I know of too . You can really take someone's head off with that thing. No wonder Thai boxers love it . My only problem with it is the fact that you turn your back, and it's also telegraphed, and if you miss you are royally screwed!

<STRONG>Maybe for you, but I have oversized first knuckles that are large and bony -- they would hurt if you got hit, but I'm more likely to hurt or break them. To get them in line, I have to **** my wrist too much. The three knuckle punch is much more natural for me. (FWIW, this was Bruce Lee's recommended technique too).

As for wrist training I've done plenty. A good method is to get a short rod (like a dumbell bar), tie a string to it and to a small weight. Now, hold your arms out infront, and twist the bar to roll up the string until the weight is all the way to the top. Them lower it down again.</STRONG>

I too have large first knuckles, although I have to admit, they have increased in size slightly from my martial arts experience. When you hit your hand with a three knuckle punch, which part feels the most solid to you? For me it has GOT to be the middle finger knuckle. I guess this is more personal preference and dictated by physical attributes though.

I remember seeing a contraption of your description in the Bruce Lee exhibit they held in San Francisco last Fall. Supposedly it was the one he used for training. While it is good for the wrists, it mostly works the forearms (which is also great and gives you a nice grip).

<STRONG>eg, left stance: left foot forward, weight on rear foot, both feet pointing about 45 degrees to right. Shoulders fairly square-on, hands open left arm half extended towards opponent, right arm across body, palm near upper part of left arm.</STRONG>

Sounds awfully similar to my fighting stance! I try to keep my weight centered, and maybe a little forward. I like to keep forward pressure on my opponent and not let up . If your weight is on the back leg, you are more likely to fight defensively. If your weight is on the front leg, you are more likely to attack. I fight south-paw though, but can really fight on either side. While it may feel a bit unnatural at first (esp. for boxing), the idea is to keep your stronger and faster hand/leg forward. Techniques thrown from the front hand/leg are faster than rear hand/leg ones, and with my power-side forward, they are faster and stronger than if I were to fight out of a normal stance. I also keep my body somewhat side ways, to present a smaller target and for mobility's sake. Both feet at 45, while the rear one might be up on the ball of the foot a bit for faster attacks. The left hand is near the right shoulder, but a little higher up, and the right hand is half extended. That was a little confusing.

You should never hold the same stance throughout a whole fight though. An experienced fighter will be able to read your stance after a while. And in a tournament situation, the other fighters are going to watch and analyze you as you fight, hoping to gain the upper hand if they happen to be paired with you next. It is good to be able to fight both sides, and be comfortable with a variety of techniques on both sides.

lucylawless - LOL!

[smacintush]

On the three knuckle punch:

It is somewhat of a misnomer to say that you "c0ck" your wrist. Actually you drop the wrist. It is complicated and I don't feel like typing it all out but basically the point is the transference of energy. If you stiff arm a brick wall with your two first knuckles, even a well trained Karateka could easily injure himself. All of that energy is transfered from you, into the wall and back to you. We are trained to fire the punch very loosely(in terms of muscle tension), tensing only at the instance of impact, and loosening the fist, dropping the wrist, and pulling the arm back as quickly as possible. The energy is transfered into the target because we don't give the energy a stiffened arm to recoil into. If you can feel the "solidness" of any knuckle when you punch, you are punching wrong.

Hope I made sense there�

[nonhuman]

Originally posted by smacintush:
<STRONG>On the three knuckle punch:

It is somewhat of a misnomer to say that you "c0ck" your wrist. Actually you drop the wrist. It is complicated and I don't feel like typing it all out but basically the point is the transference of energy. If you stiff arm a brick wall with your two first knuckles, even a well trained Karateka could easily injure himself. All of that energy is transfered from you, into the wall and back to you. We are trained to fire the punch very loosely(in terms of muscle tension), tensing only at the instance of impact, and loosening the fist, dropping the wrist, and pulling the arm back as quickly as possible. The energy is transfered into the target because we don't give the energy a stiffened arm to recoil into. If you can feel the "solidness" of any knuckle when you punch, you are punching wrong.</STRONG>

So how exactly would you punch through a board?

Yes, if you punch a brick wall without pulling the punch you will almost definitely injure yourself. That's because the brick wall, no matter how hard you punch, isn't going to go anywhere. It's basic physics: force = mass times acceleration. If you punch a brick wall, there's no way you have the power to overcome it's inertia and cause it to move, so the body that accelerates is your fist when it stops dead against the wall, so all the force is applied back to you, the most likely result of which is the bones of your hand, and possible forearm, breaking. If you're punching a person, or a heavy bag, or a board (assuming you actually put some force into the punch and are properly braced in a good stance) the inertia of your fist is enough to overcome the inertia of the object/person that your hitting. As a result, your target undergoes acceleration, meaning force is applied to it. If you pull your punch your fist undergoes much more acceleration that it would if you followed through and pushed your target out of the way (the purpose of a punch), and therefore more of the force of the punch is redirected into your fist. So, to inflict maximum damage on your target, and minimum damage on yourself, you want to follow through with your punch, assuming, of course, that the thing you are punching is not immovable.

This is a simple enough concept to prove. Just punch through a board. You'll find that the only way to do it easily and reliably is to punch through the board as if you were actually aiming for a point on the other side. If you punch at where the board itself is, or pull back your fist just bounces off it, and you get hurt more than the board does.

[smacintush]

So how exactly would you punch through a board?

Yes, if you punch a brick wall without pulling the punch you will almost definitely injure yourself. That's because the brick wall, no matter how hard you punch, isn't going to go anywhere. It's basic physics: force = mass times acceleration. If you punch a brick wall, there's no way you have the power to overcome it's inertia and cause it to move, so the body that accelerates is your fist when it stops dead against the wall, so all the force is applied back to you, the most likely result of which is the bones of your hand, and possible forearm, breaking. If you're punching a person, or a heavy bag, or a board (assuming you actually put some force into the punch and are properly braced in a good stance) the inertia of your fist is enough to overcome the inertia of the object/person that your hitting. As a result, your target undergoes acceleration, meaning force is applied to it. If you pull your punch your fist undergoes much more acceleration that it would if you followed through and pushed your target out of the way (the purpose of a punch), and therefore more of the force of the punch is redirected into your fist. So, to inflict maximum damage on your target, and minimum damage on yourself, you want to follow through with your punch, assuming, of course, that the thing you are punching is not immovable.

This is a simple enough concept to prove. Just punch through a board. You'll find that the only way to do it easily and reliably is to punch through the board as if you were actually aiming for a point on the other side. If you punch at where the board itself is, or pull back your fist just bounces off it, and you get hurt more than the board does.

What I was describing does not exclude punching through the target. Any martial art that is worth a shit will train you to punch through the target, it is elementary. My point basically was, if you stiff arm through your target, like a Karateka would, you are absorbing too much energy back into yourself in the form of recoil. Tense muscles and locked joints are an excellent conduit for recoil energies. The purpose of punching as I described above is to minimize the recoil energies returning to the puncher, resulting in most of the energy being transfered to the target. Every person I have demoed this to has been amazed at how much more powerful it is than what they were taught.

Yes, you CAN punch a brick wall, full force, with follow through if you punch correctly. I have done it plenty of times to prove a point.

I am NOT a teacher so I'm sorry if I am not coming across clearly.

[Xtopolop]

Originally posted by smacintush:
<STRONG>On the three knuckle punch:

It is somewhat of a misnomer to say that you "c0ck" your wrist. Actually you drop the wrist. It is complicated and I don't feel like typing it all out but basically the point is the transference of energy. If you stiff arm a brick wall with your two first knuckles, even a well trained Karateka could easily injure himself. All of that energy is transfered from you, into the wall and back to you. We are trained to fire the punch very loosely(in terms of muscle tension), tensing only at the instance of impact, and loosening the fist, dropping the wrist, and pulling the arm back as quickly as possible. The energy is transfered into the target because we don't give the energy a stiffened arm to recoil into. If you can feel the "solidness" of any knuckle when you punch, you are punching wrong.

Hope I made sense there�</STRONG>

Actually, it is true to say that you c0ck your wrist into position. Punching position is not completely natural for everyone. When you are about to punch, some people may actually have to "c0ck" their wrist into position. You are thinking about cocking the wrist in the same manner as a gun is cocked after the punch(or at least that's what I assume, since you mentioned dropping the wrist...), which is not what Gee4orce was refering to. He was merely saying that he had to contort his wrist to get it into the "proper" position before the punch. Nobody was talking about relieving pressure after the attack or tweaking the wrist after a punch has been executed.

You said that one should relax in order to maximize the energy transfer. This is true for a snap attack (jab, TKD roundhouse). You should tense upon contact, and immediately relax, while still "punching through" the target. When you are punching to inflict maximum damage, you do not pull back, but follow through completely, committing to the attack 100%. Try telling a Thai boxer that he should pull his attacks to maximize the amount of energy transfered to the target. How does one go about pulling a shin kick back?

When were we talking about stiff arming the opponent? I think it's safe to say that no one is pulling a stiff arm here, that's best left for the runningbacks of the boards.

You should never lock your joints when attacking (with a few exceptions for weapons). If you are locking your elbow as you punch, then it is you my friend, that is punching horribly wrong. If you happen to lock your elbow as you punch, then by all means, release the tension after the strike by dropping your wrist, before you seriously injure yourself!! Most people, however, do NOT lock their elbow as they punch. When you lock any joint while striking, there is the danger of hyper-extending it. You should learn to stop just before that point, or else risk injury.

[smacintush]

[quote]

Quote from Gee4orce:
You can also 'roll' the hand just before impact with a vertical knuckle punch -- this is how bruce did the legendary '1-inch punch'.

This is what I was referring to. I Guess I thought he meant the same thing when he was talking about c0cking his wrist.

Nobody was talking about relieving pressure after the attack or tweaking the wrist after a punch has been executed.

Acually, the "roll" referred to above is designed to do exactly this. Most people are not properly trained and mistakenly "c0ck" the wrist just before the impact. It is no wonder they notice little power difference, they doing half the technique and doing it wrong to boot.

You said that one should relax in order to maximize the energy transfer. This is true for a snap attack (jab, TKD roundhouse). You should tense upon contact, and immediately relax, while still "punching through" the target. When you are punching to inflict maximum damage, you do not pull back, but follow through completely, committing to the attack 100%. Try telling a Thai boxer that he should pull his attacks to maximize the amount of energy transfered to the target.

This is exactly what I described, in different words.

Try telling a Thai boxer ANYTHING is better than what they practice. Thai boxing is so highly overrated it isn't even funny. Mostly because of NHB fights. Thai boxing is a great ring art, but in the real world it is sloppy, and they commit way too much into their attacks.

How does one go about pulling a shin kick back?

Gee, I would try to answer this , but I was referring a straight PUNCH. The Thai shin kick is a completely different technique, based on different principles.

When were we talking about stiff arming the opponent? I think it's safe to say that no one is pulling a stiff arm here, that's best left for the runningbacks of the boards.

As soon as someone mentioned Karate. I didn't mean literally "stiff arm" like you wrote, but rather the "TeNse" ass methods taught by Karate and many others.

I obviously didn't make myself clear, and probably still haven't, but I think we just have difference of opinion about technique here. When you punch correctly the way I described you get much more power with much less effort and less over-extending. It is about body mechanics and there is more to it than I am describing here, like what the rest of your body is doing when punching.

Have fun.

[Xtopolop]

Originally posted by smacintush:
<STRONG>Acually, the "roll" referred to above is designed to do exactly this. Most people are not properly trained and mistakenly "c0ck" the wrist just before the impact. It is no wonder they notice little power difference, they doing half the technique and doing it wrong to boot.

This is exactly what I described, in different words.
</STRONG>

I think there was just a miscommunication in terminology. It seems that we agree on application, our descriptions could just use a little work. But I think what Gee4orce was saying, was that in a natural position, his hand did not line up correctly for striking with the first two knuckles, and that was why he had to c0ck his wrist if he wanted to strike that way. He wasn't refering to post-punch movements.

<STRONG>Try telling a Thai boxer ANYTHING is better than what they practice. Thai boxing is so highly overrated it isn't even funny. Mostly because of NHB fights. Thai boxing is a great ring art, but in the real world it is sloppy, and they commit way too much into their attacks.
</STRONG>

Thai boxing is not just a great ring art. While it is sloppy, telegraphed, and the attacks are completely committed, it can be VERY effective on the street, especially if one is conditioned thoroughly. By itself it could possibly be a disaster on the street because of these reasons, but in conjunction with another art or a good understanding of these drawbacks, it can be devastating. Knowing when to use a technique is the most important thing on the street (and otherwise), and knowing a multitude of techniques just gives you a broader arsenal to draw from. The "finishing" techniques of Muay Thai work especially well in a street situation, so long as they are used most effectively.

<STRONG>As soon as someone mentioned Karate. I didn't mean literally "stiff arm" like you wrote, but rather the "TeNse" ass methods taught by Karate and many others.</STRONG>

Joke... haha... laugh, damnit!

Karate is definitely very stiff, which takes a lot out of it.

<STRONG>I obviously didn't make myself clear, and probably still haven't, but I think we just have difference of opinion about technique here. When you punch correctly the way I described you get much more power with much less effort and less over-extending. It is about body mechanics and there is more to it than I am describing here, like what the rest of your body is doing when punching.</STRONG>

Yep, you were a bit unclear, but I was also posting at 4:45 am . It's very hard to describe martial arts online. It's much more effective when you're able to show someone what you are talking about. It is definitely to know what to do with the whole REST of your body when throwing a particular technique. If you only concentrate on only the arm when punching, you are missing out on a lot of other aspects of the punch.

[nonhuman]

Originally posted by smacintush:
<STRONG>Yes, you CAN punch a brick wall, full force, with follow through if you punch correctly. I have done it plenty of times to prove a point.</STRONG>

When I said "brick wall" I meant a real brick wall, not just a stack of brick in a generally wall-shaped configuration. One with mortar, and usually an inter-locking two layer design. Something like the 3' thick one my bed is up against. If you can punch through that, with or without following through, I'll be very impressed.

[Xtopolop]

Originally posted by nonhuman:
<STRONG>

When I said "brick wall" I meant a real brick wall, not just a stack of brick in a generally wall-shaped configuration. One with mortar, and usually an inter-locking two layer design. Something like the 3' thick one my bed is up against. If you can punch through that, with or without following through, I'll be very impressed.</STRONG>

Please link to a video too! iMovie at its finest!

[kertong]

One thing to add about Muay Thai (seeing as how I take it).

I can see why people would say its sloppy, telegraphed, etc.. and I completely agree that a lot of its attacks are very telegraphed.

But I think the appeal/effectiveness of Muay Thai comes in with its "bang for the buck" ratio - any average joe schmoe can pick up some basic techniques, and can learn to use it reasonably well in a short amount of time.

I mean, a lot of arts have such precise techniques that take a LONG time to learn. Take Wing Tsun, for example. The correct way to "straight punch" takes more than a few months to learn. The rooted stance working in conjunction with the punch, the angles, etc.

However, any dummy can come into muay thai and learn to throw a pretty devastating shin kick to the leg in a month or two. And the cool thing is, in the streets, it'll work pretty damn well on 90% of the people you meet.

Plus, once you get pretty proficient in Muay Thai, you can supplement it with western boxing, and some sort of grappling art (the MMA fighters seem to like brazilian jiu jitsu or gracie), and you'd be pretty well off. Throw in some weapons training, and voila!

Bottom line is, Muay Thai can be learned reasonably quick, and will work on the average schmoe. I think that's the strong point.. its not exactly known for its finesse or lightning fast flying kicks.

[kertong]

Xtopolop:
http://www.csboyfriend.com/linden2.mov &lt;-- iMovie at its finest.

Its a video of me throwing a sloppy hook, and a cross with too much followthrough. Don't laugh! It was way before I started Muay Thai. And I'm only 130 lbs. Asian too. Then, the 3rd punch: My other 180lbs roomate came in and knocked him out pretty good. haha.

(and if you're wondering why I socked my roomate... its quite a long story. And he was sh!t-faced drunk at that moment, so he says he felt nothing, haha.)

[andymcdeee]

Far out have I learned something here today.

Thinking about learning Ningitsu (I have absolutely no idea how to spell that). I'm definitely not the violent type but would be keen on learning self defense and "inner strength". if you know what I mean. Would that be a good option?

[Xtopolop]

Originally posted by kertong:
<STRONG>But I think the appeal/effectiveness of Muay Thai comes in with its "bang for the buck" ratio - any average joe schmoe can pick up some basic techniques, and can learn to use it reasonably well in a short amount of time.</STRONG>

If you want bang for the buck, again, I stress western boxing!! It's much easier to learn to punch effectively than it is to learn to throw a Thai shin kick. People tend to be much more coordinated with their arm than with their legs, and if you pound away on a heavy bag, the right cross will give you the most "bang for the buck."

Muay Thai has a reputation for being brutal. It's true, it is very intense stuff, focused purely on power techniques. That is why so many people flock to it. They hear how it's all elbows and knees and they think it's the fastest way to becoming a street fighter (often the case, but not always).

<STRONG>However, any dummy can come into muay thai and learn to throw a pretty devastating shin kick to the leg in a month or two. And the cool thing is, in the streets, it'll work pretty damn well on 90% of the people you meet.</STRONG>

I don't believe that the Thai shin kick is as easy to learn as you claim it to be. I know how to execute the kick, and have been assigned the job of trying to teach it more than once. A lot of people have a hard time picking it up. The only ones that "get it" right away are the same ones that pick up on martial arts in general really quickly. I found it very easy to learn, as may well have been the case with you too, but for the average Shmoe out there, it's probably a lot trickier than your standard cross. It's an awkward feeling to swing your leg around, only to hit with the shin, as opposed to the foot. Most people are used to kicking balls and such, and to move from using the "laces" to using your shin is downright strange to a lot of people. The balance and positioning of the hip and follow through are also difficult for people to learn as well.

Boxing works great in the street too. When someone gets RIGHT in your face, you're not likely going to have as much room as you'd like to kick them. If you see them coming at you, sure, but if they get in your face and then start mouthing off at you, then they've covered the kicking range and have moved into the "punching" range (which involves more than just punches). That's one reason I suggest boxing.

The great thing about Muay Thai, is the conditioning they give you. If you don't undergo that conditioning process, your shin kick will be relatively weak. Most people aren't willing to go through that.

<STRONG>Plus, once you get pretty proficient in Muay Thai, you can supplement it with western boxing, and some sort of grappling art (the MMA fighters seem to like brazilian jiu jitsu or gracie), and you'd be pretty well off. Throw in some weapons training, and voila!</STRONG>

This is true of any art. Once you are as proficient as you feel you need to be, you can move on and expand your learning/arsenal. One thing that people should is that a Black Belt isn't the final goal or final destination. A Black Belt is the first major stepping stone. A lot of people seem to forget this, and think that once they've reached black belt, they know all there is to know. In some styles, you don't even begin to get into the real advanced stuff until you have proven yourself as a decent black belt.

Note: Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu .

That was a GREAT movie. Funniest thing I've seen in a while . Damn, too bad there's no way in hell any of my friends would ever volunteer for a movie project like that!!

<STRONG>Far out have I learned something here today.


Thinking about learning Ningitsu (I have absolutely no idea how to spell that). I'm definitely not the violent type but would be keen on learning self defense and "inner strength". if you know what I mean. Would that be a good option?</STRONG>

Ninjitsu? You're not likely going to find a good school around. I have to question most ninjitsu schools, actually, but that's another topic altogether . What I would do if I were you is visit all the local schools, any that are within the distance that you'd be willing to drive to on a weekly basis. If they're actually about the art, they'll most likely let you take a couple classes for free, to see what they offer. Look to see how the students respond to the instructor. Beware of anyone that is immediately interested in signing you up for a contract you can't get out of. Just go out and get a feel for what's around. Once you have a good idea of what the area has to offer, then you should make a decision. It's kind of like getting broadband !!

[nonhuman]

Originally posted by Xtopolop:
<STRONG>Ninjitsu? You're not likely going to find a good school around. I have to question most ninjitsu schools, actually, but that's another topic altogether .</STRONG>

Hehehe, he should go to Steve's.

[kertong]

Xtopolop:
Hm, I know the shin kick won't be picked up in a week or two, but for the time you take to learn it, it can be pretty rewarding, I guess. I'll writ emore on that later, as I have to get to class in 10 min.

Have you checked out the boxing program ucb has at the RSF gym? Its only $40 for teh semester. How are they, have you heard anything? I go to Muay Thai mondays, tuesdays, and thursdays.. ti'd be kinda cool to train in western boxing on wednesdays and fridays =D

[Xtopolop]

Originally posted by kertong:
<STRONG>Xtopolop:
Hm, I know the shin kick won't be picked up in a week or two, but for the time you take to learn it, it can be pretty rewarding, I guess. I'll writ emore on that later, as I have to get to class in 10 min.

Have you checked out the boxing program ucb has at the RSF gym? Its only $40 for teh semester. How are they, have you heard anything? I go to Muay Thai mondays, tuesdays, and thursdays.. ti'd be kinda cool to train in western boxing on wednesdays and fridays =D</STRONG>

Yea, I suppose that is true. My point was just that while it may be rewarding, a big part of it is the conditioning involved, and that can't just be "picked up in a week or two."

Hrmm... haven't really heard much about the UCB martial arts programs or the boxing. I just know that the TKD is supposed to be the best in the immediate area (from my Sensei). What times are the Muay Thai classes MTTh? Are you getting 1/2 a unit for PE for it, or just recreational? What about the boxing too? I'd like to hear about the boxing if you find anything out.

Love to talk some more, but I must be off to the dojo . Hit me up on AIM sometime, kertong.

[ 01-31-2002: Message edited by: Xtopolop ]

[smacintush]

Thai boxing is not just a great ring art. While it is sloppy, telegraphed, and the attacks are completely committed, it can be VERY effective on the street, especially if one is conditioned thoroughly.

I do agree that in Thai Boxing, conditioning is the key. It really takes A LOT of toughening to really be good. As for a street art, I would argue that nearly ANY art is better than nothing. (even *gag* TKD * choke*) Thai Boxing being relatively easy to pick-up is a plus. However, I am a little more scientific minded than that (in everything), so I would rather spend the time that I would be spending learning to be tough and sloppy, learning to be swift, precise and elusive.

Karate is definitely very stiff, which takes a lot out of it.

My brother and I have a private joke, if you get a�uh�stiffy�we say that we got a Karate.

Ok, I just made that up, but I like it!

It's very hard to describe martial arts online.

AMEN BROTHER!

When I said "brick wall" I meant a real brick wall, not just a stack of brick in a generally wall-shaped configuration. One with mortar, and usually an inter-locking two layer design. Something like the 3' thick one my bed is up against. If you can punch through that, with or without following through, I'll be very impressed.

Well, I tape up a towel for knuckle protection�the cinder block wall are best because they have larger, flat areas than a red brick type. Yeah it sounds like BS at first, but it isn't really a big deal.

Thinking about learning Ningitsu (I have absolutely no idea how to spell that).

N-I-N-J-U-T-S-U or even N-I-N-P-O. (Ninpo is a little more spiritual than Ninjutsu)

I'm definitely not the violent type but would be keen on learning self defense and "inner strength". if you know what I mean. Would that be a good option?

Ninjutsu is very interesting. They focus on relaxation and natural body movements and leverage, all without any kata crap!

There is also ALOT of tradition involved, so IF you would EVER find a decent school (laughs to himself), be warned.

I got lucky, my brother lived in Japan and trained in the school owned by Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi, the 34th Grandmaster of Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu. He got his 4th Dan black belt and teaching authorization and came home. (he had to come home for personal reasons, he would've/should've stayed IMO) So I have my own personal FREE teacher.

As far as inner strength, this is cool: for the 4th Dan, one of the tests is to sit in the seiza position (Kneeling, and did I spell seiza right?), with your eyes closed and another student with a bokken tried to whack the crap out of you from behind! The thing is, he has to MEAN it, and you have to move out of the way in the right direction at the right time. I think it is 6th or 8th Dan, they use a real sword!

It is also important to note that Togakure Ryu is the ONLY Ninjutsu school that can prove their lineage, and therefore that they are genuine. There are alot of clowns like Harunaka Hoshino that really are a joke.

I have to question most ninjitsu schools

More wisdom! 99.99% are gonna be BS in this country. Most that are Togakure Ryu, have been bastard-ized to the point that they really should not be called Togakure Ryu. (thanks to our friend Stephen K. Hayes) Did you see the UFC with Scott Morris getting his face mashed into the canvas by Pat Smith? Scott Morris is a student of Robert Bussey, who is a student of Stephen K. Hayes. They are CHANGING and misrepresenting the art, which is shameful considering that Hayes was a student of Hatsumi. (in Hatsumi's own words he has "given up" on Hayes, though I still don't know why they don't remove him from the Ryu� )

I would definately agree about taking boxing classes. It does have a lot to offer IMO. I would dump Tae Kwon Do in a heart beat if possible.