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VisualForces · Nov 2, 2005, 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by foosh

Fusion, your healthy dose of pragmatism is appreciated.

But the bottom line is that a professional-grade notebook, with a (presumably) professional-grade display, should not have pixel rows that alternate in brightness or color or whatever it is.

You've decided that it's futile to "fight the machine," that we're all better off accepting things as they're handed to us and not questioning or being assertive... And that may be practical. But I am personally grateful for those who demand more, from Apple or from any other service/goods provider, because they're the ones that drive the bar up for the rest of us.

You took the words out of my mouth, foosh. I was going to buy a new PowerBook regardless of what the "updates" were mainly because I use a previous 17" at work and was needing one for home and travel. I was just shocked to see the "quality" of the screen diminish from the previous model. I just wanted something of at least equal quality.

It's actually becoming a bigger deal as more people are receiving them. I've read quite a few posts from photographers, designers, and video editors that have already sent their PB's back.

My laptop is on its way to Apple Care, so we'll see how it goes. If they claim it's normal, then I'm just going to buy an older model.

danny_gasperini · Nov 2, 2005, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by foosh

Fusion, your healthy dose of pragmatism is appreciated.

But the bottom line is that a professional-grade notebook, with a (presumably) professional-grade display, should not have pixel rows that alternate in brightness or color or whatever it is.

You've decided that it's futile to "fight the machine," that we're all better off accepting things as they're handed to us and not questioning or being assertive... And that may be practical. But I am personally grateful for those who demand more, from Apple or from any other service/goods provider, because they're the ones that drive the bar up for the rest of us.

Agree. If we all settled for mediocrity, nothing will ever improve.

Fusion · Nov 2, 2005, 08:48 PM

I never once mentioned to just accept it and not fight the machine. What I did say, that posting on a forum is not the way to fight the machine.

What you are forgetting is that Apple does not care about you and your "fight." What they do care about is their shareholders. And, people higher paid than us have decided on the current PowerBook offering as the best way to go to make the shareholders profit. In doing so, the shareholders have the power to accept or deny this, not you. And, as I said before, in some small way, we as consumers have the ultimate power because if we all stopped buying their product, then their strategy of poor quality assurance or low-quality items on a high priced machine would look pretty silly to the shareholders. BUT, that won't happen, because, there are many people, in fact the majority, that do not feel the current offering with the lined screens are mediocre. In fact, I own one and consider it far from mediocre.

If an Apple representative were to show up at my door right now with a machine the same as mine except it had a brand new screen that did not have the lines, I wouldn't take it. The bother of copying my information over to the new machine is not even worth it... that is how much the "problem" DOESN'T bother me. And I notice them... most people don't.

If the majority of people thought that the screens were bad and wanted them changed, it would happen... BUT, that's not the way it is, and so your fight with the machine is going to seem rather ridiculous. What is your move? Simply return it? Show me they care about that and I will stick my foot right up my own ass.

VisualForces · Nov 2, 2005, 09:41 PM

Last I checked this was a hardware troubleshooting & discussion forum. Someone posted asking if anyone else has seen the lines...I confirmed it and posted a pic...then people discussed it.

I've talked to about 6 Apple Techs now and they are aware of the widespread, negative feedback and want to look at the issue. He basically mentioned that people need to either take their laptops into an Apple Retail store or call Apple Care to put a comment on file about it. He declared mine DOA and mentioned the engineering group has been notified to figure out what the cause is. He wouldn't say who the manufacturer of the panel is or even if it's a different company than the ones who made the older PB screens, but he did mention a new screen could be manufactured if the problem is wide enough, which it seems to be.

I found this thread looking for people who had seen the same issue...hopefully it will be corrected if people start contacting Apple. I've done my part.

mrmister · Nov 2, 2005, 10:12 PM

"What you are forgetting is that Apple does not care about you and your "fight." What they do care about is their shareholders."

This is such crap. Die-hard apologists are always saying this, as though it justifies substandard service. It doesn't wash, and we won't let it wash.

John123 · Nov 2, 2005, 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by Fusion

No, I am not kidding and of couse it makes sense to me, I would not have suggested it otherwise. ....... All factors considered, the previous generation 15" is still a great machine.

Excellent post....

John123 · Nov 2, 2005, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by mrmister

"What you are forgetting is that Apple does not care about you and your "fight." What they do care about is their shareholders."

This is such crap. Die-hard apologists are always saying this, as though it justifies substandard service. It doesn't wash, and we won't let it wash.

I don't think you read his post at all. He wasn't apologizing for anything on Apple's side. He simply observed that Apple (any any company) can do whatever it wants, and it's the consumer's decision to buy or not to buy. How you can argue with that is beyond me.

It's pretty simple. If you like it, buy it. If not, then don't. If you bought it and hate it, make a stink and demand not to pay a restock fee. But don't just bitch about it all day.

mrmister · Nov 2, 2005, 11:42 PM

"I don't think you read his post at all. He wasn't apologizing for anything on Apple's side. He simply observed that Apple (any any company) can do whatever it wants, and it's the consumer's decision to buy or not to buy. How you can argue with that is beyond me."

Because it's stated again and again in these forums as an excuse for the logic you've just unfolded--that people shouldn't be entitled to complain or speak their mind in these forums or elsewhere. I get sick of that.

John123 · Nov 3, 2005, 12:32 AM

Originally Posted by mrmister

"I don't think you read his post at all. He wasn't apologizing for anything on Apple's side. He simply observed that Apple (any any company) can do whatever it wants, and it's the consumer's decision to buy or not to buy. How you can argue with that is beyond me."

Because it's stated again and again in these forums as an excuse for the logic you've just unfolded--that people shouldn't be entitled to complain or speak their mind in these forums or elsewhere. I get sick of that.

It's more a question of -- what's the point of complaining? Catharsis? Do something about it...don't just bitch and moan.

mrmister · Nov 3, 2005, 12:42 AM

"It's more a question of -- what's the point of complaining? Catharsis? Do something about it...don't just bitch and moan."

The point (and this shouldn't even have to be debated, and is thus a victory for the forces of apologism) is that through free speech others can hear or dissatisfaction or issues, and therefore know the feelings of others who have purchased the products.

In other words, the speaking often *is* the point, and this reductivism is often a thinly-veiled attempt by apologists just to shut everyone up who is having an issue. You won't see many posts where people speak glowingly of their Mac and then everyone posts and tells them to keep quiet because it doesn't "do anything".

VisualForces · Nov 3, 2005, 12:56 AM

I hope you don't assume we're just posting on this forum. I wouldn't even be here had I not done a search for "horizontal lines in new powerbook" to see if other people were experiencing it. Just wanted to throw my name in the hat, post a pic, and tell people to call Apple Care or take them into a store.

John123 · Nov 3, 2005, 03:05 AM

This is like the mecca of teenage angst-grown-up. If Kurt Cobain were alive today, and he owned a PowerBook, I totally think he'd fit into this thread well right now.

mrmister, I'm not an apologist. The only reason I want the complainants to shut up is that they're annoying and be unproductive right now. The free speech crap reeks of whiny liberalism (and this coming from a staunch Dem).

vtgts500kw · 07:48 AM

does this sites background (the dirty white color) have lines as its design or is it my screen? because if its my screen then damm, its pissing me right off.

Tesseract · Nov 3, 2005, 07:38 AM

Yes, this site has lines in its background image.

The lines seem most apparent on a solid, medium to dark gray background. For example, the "Solid Gray Dark" desktop color.

vtgts500kw · Nov 3, 2005, 07:49 AM

ahh thanks, whats all the fuss about? i have to look pretty damm hard to see any lines.

vtgts500kw · Nov 3, 2005, 07:50 AM

damm sorry, double post

Tesseract · Nov 3, 2005, 08:03 AM

The lines seem to vary in noticeability on different screens. Some people have it worse than others, I think.

cplusd · Nov 3, 2005, 09:04 AM

Website will be dropping soon if you folks would like to gather/take images and express you experience.

We shouldn't be forced because of quality control issues to revert back to old hardware/techology. If that's the answer someone suggested, that's completely absurd. Also for the record, last time I checked up above it displayed the following:

MacNN Forums > Hardware - Troubleshooting and Discussion > PowerBook > New PB 15inch Display lines?

mrmister · Nov 3, 2005, 10:50 AM

"mrmister, I'm not an apologist. The only reason I want the complainants to shut up is that they're annoying and be unproductive right now. The free speech crap reeks of whiny liberalism (and this coming from a staunch Dem)."

Hmmmm. Given that people are creating websites and making Apple know they have an issue, I think you're actually the one doing the most whining, john.

I mean, come on--"unproductive"? This is MacNN. EVERYTHING here is unproductive.

cucswiz · Nov 3, 2005, 11:30 AM

sorry to divert from the flaming that's going on... but do we have a clue as to what the underlying issue for the horizontal lines is? is it the physical display (lcd screen) or is it a product of the graphics driver (firmware)

it seems that, for the most part people knew the ram issue was sw related, i was just curious if people had an idea about this problem...

VisualForces · Nov 3, 2005, 12:07 PM

"do we have a clue as to what the underlying issue for the horizontal lines is? is it the physical display (lcd screen) or is it a product of the graphics driver (firmware)"

It's a physical issue with the screen. Hooking an external monitor to the PB looks great. I just don't feel like lugging my 20" LaCie around with it.

VisualForces · Nov 3, 2005, 12:08 PM

we now return you to the topic...

cplusd · Nov 3, 2005, 12:41 PM

I've been google'n and talking with a few people in the office and we've concluded it's a LCD problem. I'm far from an engineer so my theory could be way off or not make sense but could this be a interlaced type (progressive scan) issue? I think someone stated maybe every other row was dimmed to save battery life but I don't know if I see that happening.

VisualForces · Nov 3, 2005, 12:48 PM

Not sure, but I'm closer to finding out as my laptop was just received at the repair center.

foosh · Nov 3, 2005, 01:02 PM

That's awesome, I'm excited to hear what they tell you... *fingers crossed*

iomatic · Nov 3, 2005, 01:13 PM

I think the argument stems from varying degrees of this problem. I definitely have it, but only if I stare at it from 6–8 inches away. I cannot see it from a foot or so away, with an iCurve. In fact, the screen is unbelievably crisp.

And, I just had my vision checked. It's definitely not affecting me. I know, I'm repeating myself, but I want to make sure that this input was here.

cplusd · Nov 3, 2005, 02:23 PM

Well just surfing the web and checking email it's not that bad, but when I'm designing it's sort of an extreme annoyance.

jfelbab · Nov 3, 2005, 02:37 PM

I decided to try to get closer to this issue. Here are two extreme close-up photos of my new 15" Powerbook and my 17" iMac for comparison. I cannot see any horizontal lines issue. The density of the horizontal lines appears very uniform to me. Since I don' t see the lines I assume that they are not evident on every PB. I have good eyesight so I wonder if this is just a "bad batch" issue. I'm curious what Apple will have to say, if anything, about this. Maybe we should start a poll for those who have it and those who don't to gauge the scale if the problem.

15" Powerbook

17" iMac

VisualForces · Nov 3, 2005, 02:51 PM

Wow...great shots. I hope you're right and we just got a bad batch. If it comes back with a screen as solid as the previous model, I'll be perfectly happy.

cplusd · Nov 3, 2005, 04:09 PM

Looks like they did a nice job at packing in the pixels on the new 15 LCD... Well if his 15 doesn't have the lines then that means a good sign. I just hope Apple will hook us up with the same LCD's as the good ones (if they even exist).

John123 · Nov 3, 2005, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by mrmister

"mrmister, I'm not an apologist. The only reason I want the complainants to shut up is that they're annoying and be unproductive right now. The free speech crap reeks of whiny liberalism (and this coming from a staunch Dem)."

Hmmmm. Given that people are creating websites and making Apple know they have an issue, I think you're actually the one doing the most whining, john.

I mean, come on--"unproductive"? This is MacNN. EVERYTHING here is unproductive.

Uh, no. Productivity abounds when people ask questions and get sound advice from other users as to how to resolve their problems.

It's like you stared at your horizontal lines so long that it's gone to your head...

VisualForces · Nov 3, 2005, 04:25 PM

girls girls...you're both pretty

cucswiz · Nov 3, 2005, 04:45 PM

i agree with jfelbab, we should have a poll to see who has it and who doesn't... great pics by the way jfelbab... what did you use to take those?

i'm going to be opening my powerbook tonight, (ordered last week) so i'll let you guys know the verdict.

VisualForces · Nov 3, 2005, 06:20 PM

Update on my repair:

They began repair around 1pm today. My status just now (5:15pm) was changed to "Hold - Engineering". I was expecting this as the tech said he wanted the engineering group to see it. It's better than them calling me and saying "this display is just fine."

The wait begins...

Tesseract · Nov 3, 2005, 06:22 PM

I am making a poll right now.

jfelbab · Nov 3, 2005, 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by cucswiz

i agree with jfelbab, we should have a poll to see who has it and who doesn't... great pics by the way jfelbab... what did you use to take those?

i'm going to be opening my powerbook tonight, (ordered last week) so i'll let you guys know the verdict.

I used a Konica/Minolta DiMAGE Z6 in it's Super macro mode.

photoeditor · Nov 3, 2005, 08:53 PM

I checked the 15 inch Powerbooks at the Michigan Avenue Apple Store -- they all have the lines problem. Now I understand why the displays seemed so muddy. It also creates an ugly moire effect on patterned graphics such as the brushed metal boxes on iApps. The 17 incher is just as clear as can be. On the other hand a 15 incher that I looked at (less closely) at MicroCenter while on another errand appeared very good. I suspect Apple Michigan Avenue got the first ones they could and MicroCenter had to wait, but in this case waiting may well have been a good thing.

If everyone could post how soon they got their computers, maybe we could establish if this was simply a Friday afternoon job on the front of the assembly line. Here's hoping.

Tesseract · Nov 3, 2005, 09:03 PM

Got my machine from the Legacy Village Apple Store at 5:30pm the day of the announcement.

VisualForces · Nov 3, 2005, 09:43 PM

Ordered mine from the Apple Store Online on Oct 24...shipped Oct 26 from PA.

John123 · Nov 4, 2005, 02:03 AM

Ordered mine from Amazon on the 27th. Went out the next day.

mrmister · Nov 4, 2005, 02:14 AM

"It's like you stared at your horizontal lines so long that it's gone to your head..."

Stand by what I said--sounds like a lot of people here sharing information, and the only idiot complaining and wasting time with complaints that it's all "unproductive" is John123.

And probably me for feeding the troll. My apologies.

John123 · Nov 4, 2005, 04:28 AM

Originally Posted by mrmister

"It's like you stared at your horizontal lines so long that it's gone to your head..."

Stand by what I said--sounds like a lot of people here sharing information, and the only idiot complaining and wasting time with complaints that it's all "unproductive" is John123.

And probably me for feeding the troll. My apologies.

Tesseract · Nov 4, 2005, 04:58 AM

Originally Posted by mrmister

"It's like you stared at your horizontal lines so long that it's gone to your head..."

Stand by what I said--sounds like a lot of people here sharing information, and the only idiot complaining and wasting time with complaints that it's all "unproductive" is John123.

And probably me for feeding the troll. My apologies.

I noticed the lines when I first turned on my computer. Maybe participating in this thread has increased by bitterness about them, but it's not the only source.

John123 · Nov 4, 2005, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by Tesseract

I noticed the lines when I first turned on my computer. Maybe participating in this thread has increased by bitterness about them, but it's not the only source.

I mean, that's me. I only really noticed them because I started reading here. But when I'm not actively getting myself in a twist over them, they aren't really that noticeable.

I ran one of the pixel testers for LCDs last night, and solid colors look nice. So I think it really is pronounced on things like the brushed metal theme and so on.

If Apple decides to replace the displays, great. I'll probably go ahead and send mine in for a replacement -- although I will have to think LONG and hard about it, since there is a big risk that comes along with that. But if they don't, I'm not going to get bitter over it.

I got a great deal on a PowerBook, and higher res is the one feature I have been asking for for years. And now I've got it.

DKeithA · Nov 4, 2005, 12:31 PM

Agreed. EXACTLY how I feel.

inkhead · Nov 4, 2005, 03:11 PM

Any update?

Moon Potato · Nov 4, 2005, 03:25 PM

I noticed the lines at first, mostly in solid grey areas, but after calibrating the monitor and setting the gamma to 2.2, the display looks great. I'll do a closer inspection next time I'm using my powerbook, and see if it has eliminated the problem, or just made it less noticeable.

 Fender · Nov 4, 2005, 03:43 PM

I didn't notice it on the display models at the Apple Store. But, I was just admiring the higher res. not looking for defects.

VisualForces · Nov 4, 2005, 04:34 PM

"any update?"

Status still shows it's on "Hold - Engineering"

Again...I actually like this better than a phone call telling me this is normal. "Hold" is good for me...and all of us.

IAmMeIAm · Nov 4, 2005, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by VisualForces

"any update?"

Status still shows it's on "Hold - Engineering"

Again...I actually like this better than a phone call telling me this is normal. "Hold" is good for me...and all of us.

While I agree the 'hold' is a good sign, it's making me somewhat antsy--I'll have had my PBook for 14 days next Tuesday, which will be the end of the return period. After giving myself some time with the screen, I've concluded that I won't be able to work with it long-term. If Apple will fix it, great. If not, I want to return it, though, and switch to a line-free display.

Has anybody had the Apple store try to charge them a restock fee for returning an opened 15" due to lines?