[ebuddy]

Not only are the solar panels ghastly expensive, you need to dedicate about 50'X50' of space for the ghastly expensive storage of this energy. At last check those batteries hold charge for less than nine years at which time you must start replacing them at another ghastly expense.

Not yet practical for most.

[finboy]

Originally Posted by peeb 

It needs to be about five times more than that.

Right, and we all need to have two pairs of shoes (max) and we all need to (simultaneously) walk or bike to school.

Welcome to socialist Utopia.

When it gets to "five times more," we'll have people starving in the streets.

[finboy]

Originally Posted by Eug 

and even worse, the colour is this sickly yellow grey when dimmed.

And for those of us with sensitivity to certain wavelength ranges, they cause headaches. Even the expensive, Al Gore-recommended kind.

[subego]

Originally Posted by peeb 

While it's fascinating that you absolutely must dim every bulb you have, but most people don't do that.

That would be me. And while I fully admit that I carry the dimmer situation to the extreme (just ask my SO), it's not like dimmers are uncommon or anything.

[subego]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Why don't car companies make 2 wheel drive versions of SUVs for the 99% of the market whose only off road experience is the supermarket parking lot?

Because car companies tend to be a good 5-10 years behind the curve on this sort of thing.

Likewise, half the country gets snow.

[subego]

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

At last check those batteries hold charge for less than nine years at which time you must start replacing them at another ghastly expense.

Not yet practical for most.

I know this has a ring of conspiracy theory to it, but I understand that much better batteries for this purpose exist, but the companies that made them all went out of business for lack of repeat customers.

I read the article in the 90s, and seem to recall the batteries in question were from the 50s or 60s, most of which were still functioning at the time of the article, and were somewhat jealously guarded by those that had them.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by subego 

Because car companies tend to be a good 5-10 years behind the curve on this sort of thing.

That's right - inventing 2 wheel drive is going to be huge.

Originally Posted by subego 

Likewise, half the country gets snow.

Half the country may get SOME snow, but no way do half the population live in areas which get so much snow that solar panels are not useful.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by subego 

That would be me. And while I fully admit that I carry the dimmer situation to the extreme (just ask my SO), it's not like dimmers are uncommon or anything.

Yes, most people have one or two in the house. I have two actually. That represents about 5% of the light bulbs in my house.

[subego]

Originally Posted by peeb 

That's right - inventing 2 wheel drive is going to be huge.

I meant behind the curve in terms of providing what people want/need.

Originally Posted by peeb 

Half the country may get SOME snow, but no way do half the population live in areas which get so much snow that solar panels are not useful.

I was talking about 4-wheel drive.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by finboy 

Right, and we all need to have two pairs of shoes (max) and we all need to (simultaneously) walk or bike to school.
Welcome to socialist Utopia.
When it gets to "five times more," we'll have people starving in the streets.

No, but we will live closer to the place where we work, and bike, car pool or take mass transit. We've built a whole way of life around the economics of living no where near the places you go every day, and relying on cheap energy to move us around. That's going to change - we're going to reorient our cities and work / home locations to reduce travel.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by subego 

I meant behind the curve in terms of providing what people want/need.

Yes, they seem to be.

Originally Posted by subego 

I was talking about 4-wheel drive.

Oh, sorry - I'd still be astonished is half of fwds in the US are used at all in 4wd mode.

[subego]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Yes, most people have one or two in the house. I have two actually. That represents about 5% of the light bulbs in my house.

Something is fishy about your percentage.

If you have one bulb per dimmer, you would need at least 40 bulbs in your house for that percentage.

That means you have some fixtures that use a bunch of tiny bulbs (thus skewing your percentage), or you are using far fewer dimmers than someone in a house of your size would normally use.

[RobOnTheCape]

Doing a Google search of "dimmable fluorescents" brings up quite a few choices. One of the best deals around this town is the local hardware stores sells compact fluorescents for 99 cents each. Way to go Shirleys!

[Uncle Skeleton]

Peeb, where do you live, and how much does it snow there? Just curious

[subego]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Yes, they seem to be.

While I don't think the 2wd SUV is a bad idea, I'm more irritated at the safety regulations that cripple fuel efficient European cars.

I could understand this if motorcycles were illegal, but since a two wheel platform is acceptable, I don't see how a four wheel platform could somehow be less safe, even if it's made out of bamboo and duct tape.

[Wiskedjak]

II used to drive a 4wd. When the roads were icy, I always had it in 4wd for better traction accelerating, but only because in 2wd it was driving off the rear wheels. Later, when I opted for a smaller car (because I wanted to save money, not the environment), I found that front wheel drive was almost as good as 4wd in most cases, and certainly no worse in deceleration. (it's surprising how many people seem think that 4wd = better breaking on ice)

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by subego 

I know this has a ring of conspiracy theory to it, but I understand that much better batteries for this purpose exist, but the companies that made them all went out of business for lack of repeat customers.

I read the article in the 90s, and seem to recall the batteries in question were from the 50s or 60s, most of which were still functioning at the time of the article, and were somewhat jealously guarded by those that had them.

This wouldn't surprise me and granted, the less you use the fewer batteries you'd need anyway.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

II used to drive a 4wd. When the roads were icy, I always had it in 4wd for better traction accelerating, but only because in 2wd it was driving off the rear wheels. Later, when I opted for a smaller car (because I wanted to save money, not the environment), I found that front wheel drive was almost as good as 4wd in most cases, and certainly no worse in deceleration. (it's surprising how many people seem think that 4wd = better breaking on ice)

Yep. Anyone who gets snow will tell you that a bigass RWD pickup is next to useless in the winter, and just short of useful if you sandbag the hell out of the bed.

People who whine about needing 4wd for the winter just don't know how to drive in winter conditions, plain and simple. Does it make a difference? Sure, a little bit. A tiny bit. It's not the same difference you get on asphalt though, not even close. FWD is absolutely fine if you don't drive like an idiot, and don't let anyone tell you different.

greg

[subego]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

People who whine about needing 4wd for the winter just don't know how to drive in winter conditions, plain and simple.

Or maybe they just want to get out of their parking spot in the morning.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by peeb 

Well, it is true that for any solution, there are some applications and places where it is not suitable. While it's fascinating that you absolutely must dim every bulb you have, but most people don't do that. Likewise living in Siberia - for most people that isn't an issue.

It's just an illustration that the advice that some give about how to save energy often is just not that useful.

I have halogen pot lights. There are no CFL replacements for it, unless I replace all the light fixtures at huge expense. I have dimmable flood lamps in other spots in the house, and unfortunately dimmable CFLs don't work for those as I already mentioned. I have other lamps which can use CFLs, and guess what? I already use CFLs for most of those.

P.S. For the record, I driven a hybrid since 2001, and invested in wind power in 2005, so I suggest you may want to drop the 'tude a notch or two.

Oh and I thank the Lord/Buddha/Shiva/mom/Tom Cruise that I don't live in Siberia.

Originally Posted by peeb 

Why don't car companies make 2 wheel drive versions of SUVs for the 99% of the market whose only off road experience is the supermarket parking lot?

They do. They've been selling them for years.

Also, most 4-wheel drive vehicles have a 2-wheel drive setting. In fact, I'm always amused around here when SUV drivers end up in the ditch first after a snowfall because they're too dumb to remember to activate their 4-wheel drive option for their heavy, slide-prone vehicle.

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

People who whine about needing 4wd for the winter just don't know how to drive in winter conditions, plain and simple. Does it make a difference? Sure, a little bit. A tiny bit. It's not the same difference you get on asphalt though, not even close. FWD is absolutely fine if you don't drive like an idiot, and don't let anyone tell you different

I don't bother with 4-wheel drive vehicles, and stick with front-wheel drive only. However, 4WD makes quite a noticeable difference in winter conditions.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Too lazy to get a shovel?

I grew up in a place that probably gets some of the fiercest winter storms in North America. My dad got by with a Dodge Caravan, Volkswagon Rabbits (7 of them) and a Pontiac Firefly (367k by the end). To get up our lane in the wintertime you had to drive down the highway, turn around, and take a 300-foot run before veering off, and when it was snowing you'd do it 5 or 6 times to blaze a trail.

Never any problems. Pontiac Firefly, 990-odd cc of pure traction. Learn how to drive, baby.

greg

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Eug 

I don't bother with 4-wheel drive vehicles, and stick with front-wheel drive only. However, 4WD makes quite a noticeable difference in winter conditions.

Let's be realistic here: if you're driving hard enough to notice the difference 4wd makes in the winter, you're driving too hard. Almost the entire problem with accidents in the winter is (as someone already mentioned) not that you can't s-turn at speed properly, but that you're going too effin' fast and 4wd doesn't slow you down any different than 0wd.

How about saving that money and buying winter tires for your FWD instead, and bam! better winter driving. All seasons suck ass in Canadian winters.

greg

[Eug]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

Too lazy to get a shovel?

I grew up in a place that probably gets some of the fiercest winter storms in North America. My dad got by with a Dodge Caravan, Volkswagon Rabbits (7 of them) and a Pontiac Firefly (367k by the end). To get up our lane in the wintertime you had to drive down the highway, turn around, and take a 300-foot run before veering off, and when it was snowing you'd do it 5 or 6 times to blaze a trail.

Never any problems. Pontiac Firefly, 990-odd cc of pure traction. Learn how to drive, baby.

Like I said, I get by just fine with my front-wheel drive vehicle. However, I would be lying if I claimed that 4WD doesn't help much in winter conditions, because it does. I personally almost wish my Prius had an AWD setting for use a few times a year.

P.S. Your described "technique" sounds like a royal pain the ass.

How about saving that money and buying winter tires for your FWD instead, and bam! better winter driving. All seasons suck ass in Canadian winters.

I had winter tires. I got rid of them. They're better in the snow, but way worse for all other conditions. I'd rather have an AWD option with all-seasons than 2WD with winter tires. Of course, the ideal specifically in snow would be AWD with winter tires, but like I said, winter tires suck in other conditions.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Yeah I won't deny it. It does make a difference. It just doesn't make the kind of difference that one would imagine when someone mentions FWD and you get the woodwork screaming for how much they need it for wintertime. Rubbish.

greg

[Eug]

Let's be realistic here: if you're driving hard enough to notice the difference 4wd makes in the winter, you're driving too hard. Almost the entire problem with accidents in the winter is (as someone already mentioned) not that you can't s-turn at speed properly, but that you're going too effin' fast and 4wd doesn't slow you down any different than 0wd.

Actually, I find 4WD very helpful at very slow speeds... precisely the type of driving for a big snowstorm.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Heh heh

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by subego 

That would be me. And while I fully admit that I carry the dimmer situation to the extreme (just ask my SO), it's not like dimmers are uncommon or anything.

Just curious: home automation system, or just independent dimmer switches?

[subego]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

Just curious: home automation system, or just independent dimmer switches?

Home automation. But I'd do them independently anyways.

That was actually my plan, but there was one light that I needed to automate, and then the crack-like effects kicked in.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by subego 

Home automation. But I'd do them independently anyways.

That was actually my plan, but there was one light that I needed to automate, and then the crack-like effects kicked in.

I know how that goes- same thing happened to me. I also had one light that needed a more convenient remote switch, and in researching how best to solve that, I realized how easy it was to just automate every-friggen-thing in the house with smarthome stuff. It was just fun to do. At first the wife thought it was crazy, but now she's like "can't you 'fix' the lighting in here too...?"

[sek929]

If you need a pickup like I do you would be a retard not to get 4WD. Ever try to drive a RWD pickup with no weight in the bed around during a storm? Lemme just say that it'll keep you on your toes, so to speak.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Hahaha oh yeah! Gotta sandbag the hell outta that man.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Peeb, where do you live, and how much does it snow there? Just curious

Pacific Northwest, hardly at all where I actually live, although I do a fair amount of winter snow / ice driving in the mountains.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by subego 

Something is fishy about your percentage. If you have one bulb per dimmer, you would need at least 40 bulbs in your house for that percentage.
That means you have some fixtures that use a bunch of tiny bulbs (thus skewing your percentage), or you are using far fewer dimmers than someone in a house of your size would normally use.

I have 30+ bulbs - the 5% figure was an off the top of my head guess - I think if I went through and counted it would come out somewhere between 5 and 10 percent, once you count all the outside, basement, closet, attic, garage lights etc.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Actually, I find 4WD very helpful at very slow speeds... precisely the type of driving for a big snowstorm.

I don't disagree, but I have seen so many accidents that revolve around fwds going into the back of something because the driver assumed that 4wd would give them the same breaking advantage that is gives in accelerating.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by peeb 

I don't disagree, but I have seen so many accidents that revolve around fwds going into the back of something because the driver assumed that 4wd would give them the same breaking advantage that is gives in accelerating.

If you mean 4wd/awd then I agree. (You wrote "fwds" which I usually interpret to mean "front wheel drives".) Yeah, too many people view an AWD car as an excuse for stupid driving.

But like I said, what always gets me is those who have 4wd, but don't bother turning it on, probably cuz they don't know how. Tow truck drivers often tell us in TV interviews that when they show up to tow an SUV in the ditch after a snowstorm, often times they find the car in 2wd mode.

...which supports your contention that most of these people shouldn't have a 4wd car in the first place.

[peeb]

Yeah, sorry - 4wd not fwd....

[Wiskedjak]

Just drove in to work today through a bizarre spring snow storm. Passed 5 vehicles in the ditch. 3 were SUVs.

SUVs do help with acceleration, but that often seems to result in making some drivers a little over confident on slippery roads and more of a hazard than those in 2wds.

[sek929]

SUVs have far more inertia and about the same amount of tire touching the ground as a passenger car..

I'll agree that during a bad storm up here most of the vehicles upside-down in the medians are SUVs.

My last car was a FWD Dodge Intrepid and it was a BEAST in the snow. Never got stuck in that baby, even in 10+ inches.

My Sonoma in 4x4 mode off the line in deep snow makes me grin, and every now and again I push the 2WD button to slide around corners. I know about turning and breaking so I'm not in the 'd!ckheads with 4WD in the ditch' category.

I USE my truck, and heavily at that, to haul things so my gas sucker is justified. It has become common around here for posers to buy F350 Diesels just to bomb around in. Now that Diesel is over 4 bucks a gallon I've seen a glut of For Sale signs on these jerkasses vehicles. Good riddance, you asses didn't need the 3-ton payload anyways when all you do is haul your frosted tips to bars at night.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by sek929 

you asses didn't need the 3-ton payload anyways when all you do is haul your frosted tips to bars at night.

[Eug]

I got my Prius stuck in the winter... once.

However, that's because I was forced to park partially in a small ditch at a ski resort. The front of the car was pointed downward with the front wheels in the ditch. I guess it snowed a bit and melted during the day... and when I came back at 9 pm the whole ditch was iced over. I couldn't get out without a push. That's one time when AWD would have come in quite handy.

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

I like it, but please explain.

[Dakar the Fourth]

I prefer posting that to

[peeb]

I love these conversations.

(a) Most people don't need to drive road grading machines to the mall.
(b) I NEED my road grading machine - some of us work on construction sites all day and use them. You liberals don't understand our needs.
(a) Right, but MOST PEOPLE don't need to drive them.
(b) I DO.

or...
(a) It would reduce oil consumption if people put solar panels on their roof.
(b) It wouldn't work for me, I live three miles underground in a cavern. Get real.

and so on.

[Chongo]

[peeb]

Well Chongo, that about sums it up. Drilling in Alaska, nucular plants, and more refineries will not solve the energy problems. Bush has no energy plan.

[subego]

Nuclear could help though.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by subego 

Nuclear could help though.

It's pronounced 'nucular'.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by peeb 

I love these conversations.

(a) Most people don't need to drive road grading machines to the mall.
(b) I NEED my road grading machine - some of us work on construction sites all day and use them. You liberals don't understand our needs.
(a) Right, but MOST PEOPLE don't need to drive them.
(b) I DO.

That's actually NOT AT ALL what I was saying. I was agreeing with you that 90% of heavy vehicle owners don't need them. I was pointing out what kind of people do actually need them, people like me.

Geesh, are you always this obtuse?

[peeb]

I love these conversations.

[subego]

Originally Posted by peeb 

It's pronounced 'nucular'.

You mean like Jimmy Carter used to say it?

Extra funny when you consider the man has a degree in physics.

[peeb]

No, like Major Kong.