[el chupacabra]

So money for licensing MPEG2 content and VC1 content goes to the same place.

Yes and then it's divided up. This is the same for decoders by the way.

Originally Posted by goMac 

Microsoft only makes licensing money from the decoders.

No

[goMac]

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

Yes and then it's divided up. This is the same for decoders by the way. No

Actually, I'm not sure you even need a license for individual VC-1 encodes. Once you own the encoder, you can make as many encodes as you want. In the same way, if you produce H.264 content, you don't need to pay a licensing fee when you distribute that content.

So really the only per unit licensing that Microsoft is doing is for the players, and both Bluray and HD-DVD pay that licensing.

[Eug]

Uh oh. Warner's TotalHD combo Blu-ray / HD DVD discs are likely gonna cost more.

he hybrid HD Discs will be available in US in the second half of this year with the launch of MI:3, Batman Begins and Superman Returns. If the format proves to be successful in the US, expect to see them on these shores some time in the new year.
Executives from Warner have indicated that the price of Total HD discs will not differ substantially from standard Blu-ray or HD DVD. This will come as a relief to consumers who feel they have been pawns in the HD format wars.

You mean just like combo discs do "not differ substantially" in price?

[icruise]

Dumb, dumb idea. They have to cost the same or it won't work. Having the disc work in both Blu-ray and HD-DVD players is of no advantage to the vast majority of consumers.

[el chupacabra]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Actually, I'm not sure you even need a license for individual VC-1 encodes. Once you own the encoder, you can make as many encodes as you want. In the same way, if you produce H.264 content, you don't need to pay a licensing fee when you distribute that content.

So really the only per unit licensing that Microsoft is doing is for the players, and both Bluray and HD-DVD pay that licensing.

Well I'm sure you do need to pay a fee. A fee of 2 cents for every HD DVD or Blu-Ray disc encoded in VC-1. This is divided between the groups that created it (mainly MS).

This isn't like buying a QT Pro key for $30 and then making as many videos as you want and selling them on the net royalty free ( this is legal even with VC-1 up to a limit).. When content is distributed in the masses they must pay a fee. There is also a subscribtion option up to $100,000 per year for people that want to encode in VC-1 price dependent on how much content they sell.. And H.264 does have royalties per encode as well but they may be implemented differently. Originally there was a per minute of video option; don't know if this still exists...it wouldn't fit the current MPEG format of business.

[Eug]

Latest disc sales numbers (ending May 20):



Last week: BD 58:42 HD = 1.4:1
Year to date: BD 67:33 HD = 2.0:1
Since inception: BD 57:43 HD = 1.3:1

So basically that means there is currently a 2:1 disc sales advantage this year for Blu-ray over HD DVD.

Top 10:

1 The Fountain BD 100.00
2 Planet Earth HD 84.89
3 The Fountain HD 66.64
4 Planet Earth BD 61.80
5 Stomp the Yard BD 50.01
6 Casino Royale BD 41.61
7 Night at the Museum BD 38.23
8 Deja Vu BD 34.96
9 Digital Video Essentials HD 23.70
10 Batman Begins HD 23.52

This does NOT include Pirates of the Caribbean or Matrix. Next week's numbers should prove interesting.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally Posted by Eug 

This does NOT include Pirates of the Caribbean or Matrix. Next week's numbers should prove interesting.

No kidding. It should be interesting to see who cleans up.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Ok so I guess the answer to this thread is "Blu-ray is winning."

P.S. how the hell is the fountain #1 when it got such bad reviews? Where is departed even though it sold 100,000?

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by mitchell_pgh 

No kidding. It should be interesting to see who cleans up.

I think Matrix will. First, 100% of the geeks who have a 360 + HD drive will get the geekiest movie i.e. the Matrix.

PS3 owners don't usually go apeshit over Disney flicks I would think.

Spiderman and 300 on BR will make a killing though.

[residentEvil]

i haven't been reading every page. the walmart + HD DVD pricing was debunked on a couple sites.

but, i have seen in the last 48 hours two different sources saying by the years end blu-ray players will hit the $200 mark.

sorry if it has been talked about.

i'm hoping for a $500 combo player myself.

all i have to add; sorry if it is a repeat or just meaningless fluff.

[hmurchison2001]

The Wal-Mart HD DVD rumor was partially debunked. Neither company denied they were working on a deal.

I think Blu-ray needs to work at getting down to $399 MSRP levels before I believe they can just pop out a $200 player. People forget that HD DVD lens assembly is cheaper because a single lens covers both lasers (Red for DVD and Blue for HD DVD) because the numerical aperture is so close. Contrast that to Blu-ray which needs a larger housing and two lens and you can see where the costs begin to add up.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Latest disc sales numbers (ending May 20):

Looks like HD-DVD sales are actually increasing. HD-DVD doesn't seem to be losing market share, it seems to be gaining it back when you look at the weekly sales compared to the yearly sales.

Also, Costco selling Toshiba A2 for $250:
http://formatwarcentral.com/index.ph...999-costco-bm/

[Eug]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

I think Matrix will. First, 100% of the geeks who have a 360 + HD drive will get the geekiest movie i.e. the Matrix.

PS3 owners don't usually go apeshit over Disney flicks I would think.

Spiderman and 300 on BR will make a killing though.

Spider-Man will do VERY well. I'm not convinced 300 will do as well, but it will also do well nonetheless.

I disagree about Matrix and Pirates. I think Pirates will do better, because:

1) Pirates 1 & 2 are more recent movies.
2) They're separate discs, which are cheaper than the Complete and Ultimate Matrix box sets.
3) They were released just prior to Pirates 3 showing up in the theatre.
4) A lot of PS3ers did in fact go apeshit over Pirates (for reasons I don't quite understand).

P.S. Pirates 3 is getting crappy reviews. Even worse than Spider-Man 3 (which I hated). Despite this, I think Pirates 3 will do well on Blu-ray too.

Originally Posted by goMac 

Also, Costco selling Toshiba A2 for $250:
HD DVD Player 249.99 @ Costco B&M : Format War Central

Technically it's the D2, but the D2 is exactly the same as the A2. The added bonus is that it comes with a free HDMI cable in the box. The A2 doesn't. Both come with the 5 free HD DVD deal. (Too bad Toshiba is taking forever to ship those HD DVDs.)

But yeah, $249.99 is a killer deal for a 2nd generation HD DVD standalone player. ValueElectronics has a great deal too. It's $297, but you get some extra goodies, including 2 extra HD DVDs of your choice immediately.

[hmurchison2001]

We're back to the Hollywood before LotR

Where you get Big Budget films that wow your technically but are for the most part artistically and emotionally vacuous.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Latest disc sales numbers (ending May 20):

Last week: BD 58:42 HD = 1.4:1
Year to date: BD 67:33 HD = 2.0:1
Since inception: BD 57:43 HD = 1.3:1

So basically that means there is currently a 2:1 disc sales advantage this year for Blu-ray over HD DVD.

Is that actual sales, or does it count freebies given out with players?

[Eug]

Originally Posted by mduell 

Is that actual sales, or does it count freebies given out with players?

Actual sales. Freebies don't count. (If they did, then Talledega Nights and King Kong would have very large numbers.)

P.S. I just ordered Harry Potter: Goblet of Fire and La Haine from the UK (which is OK, since there is no region coding). To my surprise, UK HD DVD prices are actually sometimes half decent these days: £11 and £13 respectively.

[Kenneth]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Top 10:

1 The Fountain BD 100.00
2 Planet Earth HD 84.89
3 The Fountain HD 66.64
4 Planet Earth BD 61.80
5 Stomp the Yard BD 50.01
6 Casino Royale BD 41.61
7 Night at the Museum BD 38.23
8 Deja Vu BD 34.96
9 Digital Video Essentials HD 23.70
10 Batman Begins HD 23.52

What's the number represent?

[Eug]

100 is an arbitrary number for the top seller of that week. All the other numbers are relative, compared to 100.

ie. Planet Earth on HD sold 85% as many units as The Fountain on BD.

Originally Posted by hmurchison2001 

We're back to the Hollywood before LotR

Where you get Big Budget films that wow your technically but are for the most part artistically and emotionally vacuous.

You mean like Planet Earth?

[icruise]

I also think the Pirates movies will beat out the Matrix, partially because of the greater installed base of the PS3 (which I think does overlap with fans of the movie), partially because the Matrix movies are only sold as an expensive trilogy, and partially because of the new Pirates movie in theaters. Although we know that the Amazon sales rankings aren't the best gauge for this kind of thing, the Pirates movies are now at #12 and #15, and the Matrix set is at #25 (the Pirates movies were at numbers #8 and #9 on the day they were released).

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Eug 

I just ordered Harry Potter: Goblet of Fire

Weird. The 2-disc DVD (not HD DVD) set of Goblet of Fire costs US$23.99 at Amazon.com. The HD DVD is £11.04 or US$21.91 at Amazon.co.uk, so the HD DVD is actually cheaper.

Originally Posted by icruise 

I also think the Pirates movies will beat out the Matrix, partially because of the greater installed base of the PS3 (which I think does overlap with fans of the movie), partially because the Matrix movies are only sold as an expensive trilogy, and partially because of the new Pirates movie in theaters. Although we know that the Amazon sales rankings aren't the best gauge for this kind of thing, the Pirates movies are now at #12 and #15, and the Matrix set is at #25 (the Pirates movies were at numbers #8 and #9 on the day they were released).

VideoBusiness: More High-Def Sales, No Breakout Titles

A slew of elite high-definition titles landed at retail on May 22, pushing up weekly sales volume on Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD discs. Titles as high-profile as Buena Vista Home Entertainment’s Pirates of the Caribbean duo and Warner Home Video’s The Matrix Trilogy were not expected to set any sell-through records right out of the gate though, according to retailers who grappled with how to best merchandise and market the mostly catalog fare.

“This week is definitely stronger than your average week,” Hastings video buyer John Anderson said. “Time will tell, but we are expecting an increase of greater than 20%.”

Nevertheless, “the Pirates movies have been strong sellers, but the fact remains that they are still catalog titles,” said Anderson. “Casino Royale was a day-and-date release, and sales were much stronger. That title sold out many places on day one and took a couple weeks to get back in stock.”


Both formats could claim wins during this big high-def week.

On The DVD Wars (www.eproductwars.com), which tracks sales of Blu-ray and HD DVD on Amazon.com, Blu-ray continued to lead HD DVD in sales throughout May, though on May 22, HD DVD made enough gains so that the sales rank of the Top 25 titles on the format topped the rank of the Top 25 Blu-ray titles.

The top-selling high-def title on Amazon Wednesday and Thursday was the HD DVD release Planet Earth, ranking No. 8 on the site. Dead Man’s Chest was close behind at No. 9. Curse of the Black Pearl was the No. 2 seller on the Blu-ray format, ranking No. 11 overall on Amazon as of Thursday. Matrix was the second-top-selling HD DVD title, ranking 30 on Amazon charts.

[icruise]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Nevertheless, “the Pirates movies have been strong sellers, but the fact remains that they are still catalog titles,” said Anderson. “Casino Royale was a day-and-date release, and sales were much stronger. That title sold out many places on day one and took a couple weeks to get back in stock.”

That backs up what I have been saying regarding catalog titles versus new releases. But I'm still interested to see what the actual sales where, since this is just a projection.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by icruise 

That backs up what I have been saying regarding catalog titles versus new releases. But I'm still interested to see what the actual sales where, since this is just a projection.

Numbers for Casino Royale and The Departed:

In March, Sony Pictures Home Entertainment announced it had shipped, rather than sold, 100,000 copies of Casino Royale, which was released on the Blu-ray Disc format only. According to Home Media Magazine’s market research department, actual sales of the title, as of the end of April, stood at 74,280 units. At that same point, the Blu-ray Disc version of The Departed had sold 58,300 units, while the HD DVD edition had sold 35,300 units.

So, the sales ratio for BD:HD for The Departed was 1.65:1, noting though that The Departed was a more expensive combo disc on HD DVD.

Price BD: MSRP $34.99, Amazon $23.95
Price HD: MSRP $39.99, Amazon $27.95

[icruise]

Since it mentions that Casino Royale had sold 74,280 copies by the end of April, I guess it's safe to say that it's the highest selling single-platform title so far.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Eug 

I disagree about Matrix and Pirates. I think Pirates will do better, because:

1) Pirates 1 & 2 are more recent movies.
2) They're separate discs, which are cheaper than the Complete and Ultimate Matrix box sets.
3) They were released just prior to Pirates 3 showing up in the theatre.
4) A lot of PS3ers did in fact go apeshit over Pirates (for reasons I don't quite understand).

As expected, POTC is outselling Matrix. However, Planet Earth on HD DVD is currently the #1 hi-def title in the DVD section.



I guess I underestimated Planet Earth (again). The DVD version is #1 overall in the DVD section BTW, with the HD DVD version ranked #8 overall.

Originally Posted by Eug

But yeah, $249.99 is a killer deal for a 2nd generation HD DVD standalone player. ValueElectronics has a great deal too. It's $297, but you get some extra goodies, including 2 extra HD DVDs of your choice immediately.

Meanwhile, the Toshiba deal seems to be working. In the DVD player/recorder section, all three Toshibas are in the top ten:



#1 - Toshiba HD-A2
#7 - Toshiba HD-XA2
#10 - Toshiba HD-A20

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by icruise 

Since it mentions that Casino Royale had sold 74,280 copies by the end of April, I guess it's safe to say that it's the highest selling single-platform title so far.

Yup, so again, BR is in the lead.

[icruise]

True, but these differences are really miniscule compared to sales on the DVD side. HD movies just aren't selling very well on either format.

[exca1ibur]

You are comparing hundreds of thousands of movies compared to hundreds, not to mention years in the market compared to one, and hundreds of players compared to a handful. I'd expect DVD to be higher for at least 2 more years. No need to point that out as a surprise, IMO. I think the best market for Hi-Def players are more about new titles going forward than catalog titles, building that market is going to take a little while. This is not an overnight process by far.

[icruise]

I'm not saying it's a surprise. I think it's natural. But we do need to keep things in perspective when talking about BR outselling HD-DVD, for example. The numbers are still so small that even a 2:1 difference can be overcome relatively easily.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Spiderman and 300 on BR will make a killing though.

300 is now up for pre-order at Warner USA.

HD DVD: MSRP $29.99 (combo HD DVD/DVD)
Blu-ray: MSRP $26.99

July 31 release date.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by icruise 

I'm not saying it's a surprise. I think it's natural. But we do need to keep things in perspective when talking about BR outselling HD-DVD, for example. The numbers are still so small that even a 2:1 difference can be overcome relatively easily.

I thought HD disks were taking off much faster than even DVD did?

[ort888]

I think this format was is costing the movie studios big bucks. I would have jumped on one format or the other a long time ago if there was just one format.

As it stands now, not only am I not buying any HD formats, I'm also not buying any DVDs because I know that I will be going to hi-def at some point in the near future.

I think most of the superior Blu-ray sales are just a spike from new PS3 owners. The numbers will go down (and they are) as the PS3 newness wears off. I don't have a link to back this up, but I heard that UMD sales were much much better in the beginning then Blu-ray sales are now, and we all saw how that turned out.

In my mind, this is still a dead heat. When I see a $299 HD-DVD player in a best buy ad right next to a $799 Blu-ray player, it makes me shake my head. It seems like Blu-ray is pulling ahead, but are they really?

But both formats are really flopping when you think about it. 75,000 in monthly sales is crap for a top seller.

[exca1ibur]

Considering, to really experience a HD-format you need to have an HDTV, why buy HD-DVD or Blu ray if you are still using a SDTV? HDTVs are standard yet, once they are then you will see both formats pick up, also by then both player prices will be in the 'typical consumer' range.

PS3, Blu ray, HD-DVD... Newness doesn't matter. It's all about if the movie you want to see is available. Nothing to do with the players. As more titles come out that people want to buy, sales will grow.

75,000 based on the small percentage of the market they represent right now, it's a little different. Either way... you have to start out somewhere.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by ort888 

In my mind, this is still a dead heat. When I see a $299 HD-DVD player in a best buy ad right next to a $799 Blu-ray player, it makes me shake my head. It seems like Blu-ray is pulling ahead, but are they really?

Again, from the numbers that were posted earlier, HD-DVD is not in decline, it's in an upswing.

What's going to happen is there are going to be so many HD-DVD players on the market, that the remaining studios (except for Sony), will have to accept HD-DVD and go dual platform. I expect in the end, Universal will be the only one doing just HD-DVD and Sony will be the only one doing just Bluray.

[icruise]

Originally Posted by ort888 

I think most of the superior Blu-ray sales are just a spike from new PS3 owners. The numbers will go down (and they are) as the PS3 newness wears off. I don't have a link to back this up, but I heard that UMD sales were much much better in the beginning then Blu-ray sales are now, and we all saw how that turned out.

Please don't muddy the waters by comparing Blu-ray to UMD. They have almost nothing in common with one another, aside from Sony itself.

Originally Posted by goMac 

Again, from the numbers that were posted earlier, HD-DVD is not in decline, it's in an upswing.

You really want to use one week's worth of sales data to claim that HD-DVD is in a upswing?

[goMac]

Originally Posted by icruise 

You really want to use one week's worth of sales data to claim that HD-DVD is in a upswing?

I would assume that a large disparity from the yearly numbers didn't just happen out of nowhere.

[Eug]

It seems the Toshiba pricing promotion is continuing to have its desired effect. The Toshiba HD-A2 is down to $237.88 (with $30 shipping) from Electronics Expo at Amazon.com and $266.88 (with free shipping) from Amazon itself.

The HD-A2 is now #14 overall in the Electronics section of Amazon.com, even beating out every colour of the iPod nano.

Now, these numbers aren't going to win any wars, but they do (yet again) illustrate the power of price.

[Mrjinglesusa]

Bottom line: Who cares who is "winning"?

If you are into HD, your best bet at this point (and for the next 2-3 years) is to go format neutral. HD bliss until the "war" is settled and even when it is settled, you can still play any movies you bought for years to come. For me, neutrality is a Toshiba XA2 (GREAT upconverting DVD player as well) and a PS3. I'm about 50:50 HD DVD vs. Blu-ray movies (~30 total) at the moment. For a little more than the price of a high-end stand alone Blu-ray player, I have (arguably) the best Blu-ray player, HD DVD player, and up-converting DVD player out there. And, until a single format is decided (if ever), I can enjoy the best of what both HD DVD and Blu-ray have to offer, not to mention that the XA2 breathes new life into my standard DVD collection.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Again, from the numbers that were posted earlier, HD-DVD is not in decline, it's in an upswing.

Problem for you is so is BR. 1 month ago you and fellow HD'ers were boasting about the huge lead HD had in Europe but after the PS3 hit it grabbed more than 60% of the YEAR to date sales in europe in a month alone.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Eug 

It seems the Toshiba pricing promotion is continuing to have its desired effect. The Toshiba HD-A2 is down to $237.88 (with $30 shipping) from Electronics Expo at Amazon.com and $266.88 (with free shipping) from Amazon itself.

$237.88 from Amazon.com itself, with free shipping.

[starman]

Originally Posted by icruise 

True, but these differences are really miniscule compared to sales on the DVD side. HD movies just aren't selling very well on either format.

I have to laugh at this. So reminiscent of 1997.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Eug 

It seems the Toshiba pricing promotion is continuing to have its desired effect. The Toshiba HD-A2 is down to $237.88 (with $30 shipping) from Electronics Expo at Amazon.com and $266.88 (with free shipping) from Amazon itself.

The HD-A2 is now #14 overall in the Electronics section of Amazon.com, even beating out every colour of the iPod nano.

Now, these numbers aren't going to win any wars, but they do (yet again) illustrate the power of price.

And now the Toshiba HD-A2 is #1 in the Electronics section at Amazon.com, and beating out all iPod models.

[icruise]

Originally Posted by starman 

I have to laugh at this. So reminiscent of 1997.

You have to laugh at what? I'm not saying that these formats are going to fail. Just that they're not doing all that fantastic right at the moment. Can you argue with that?

[icruise]

Originally Posted by Eug 

And now the Toshiba HD-A2 is #1 in the Electronics section at Amazon.com, and beating out all iPod models.

That is a pretty good deal. On the other hand, look at the other items on that list. Even though #3 is the "Garmin Nuvi 350 Pocket Vehicle GPS Navigator and Personal Travel Assistant" and #12 is the 80GB iPod, something tells me that the iPod is just a tad more popular overall.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by icruise 

You have to laugh at what? I'm not saying that these formats are going to fail. Just that they're not doing all that fantastic right at the moment. Can you argue with that?

While I don't share his enthusiasm, I think he's referring to the criticisms of DVD adoption back in 1997, based on its relatively low sales in 1997. That of course all changed as prices dropped.

It's obviously different though this time around. The jump from DVD to hi-def isn't as big as VHS to DVD IMO, and we have a format war. However, the point is well taken that we're still early in the war and the relatively low sales today isn't really necessarily going to mean low sales next year.

Originally Posted by icruise 

That is a pretty good deal. On the other hand, look at the other items on that list. Even though #3 is the "Garmin Nuvi 350 Pocket Vehicle GPS Navigator and Personal Travel Assistant" and #12 is the 80GB iPod, something tells me that the iPod is just a tad more popular overall.

Yeah, all the iPods combined outsell the Toshiba HD-A2 for sure, and probably by a significant margin. However, it's still very impressive that the A2 is outselling every individual model of the iPod IMO.

[- - e r i k - -]

We're not early in the war. This F*CKING thing has been going on for years.

blu-ray/hd-dvd… who is winning?
No one and we are all losing.

[mrtew]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

We're not early in the war. This F*CKING thing has been going on for years.

blu-ray/hd-dvd… who is winning?
No one and we are all losing.

I agree 100%. I have a nice new HDTV and so to millions of other people and we're all afraid to buy a player or any movies because we might "lose". I can't believe the companies placed themselves and us all in this position and that they aren't doing anything to solve the problem. They're losing billion$ every year in sales (I've stopped buying DVDs too of course) and we're all losing years and years of enjoyment we could be having. Don't tell me to just jump one way or the other and quit worrying... I still won't be getting the other format's "exclusive" crap. Stupid humans.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

blu-ray/hd-dvd… who is winning?
No one and we are all losing.

No not really as BR is winning so far.

[Eug]

Well, this is MAJORLY disappointing...

There are lip sync problems on The Matrix.

The thread above is talking mostly about Toshiba players, but I have confirmed it with my 360 HD DVD. It is present with both the DD+ and TrueHD tracks. It looks like maybe the other two movies are OK, but that's not good enough.

Somebody must have been asleep at the wheel. I just don't understand how in the second year of the format this could have happened. I noticed the issues within 3 seconds of the first dialogue I heard, so it's not as if it isn't obvious. I don't know if it's a disc issue or a player issue, but either way, it shouldn't have happened, esp. with a huge release such as this one.

[Dakarʒ]

Well thats sad.

[residentEvil]

this isn't the first HD movie with lip sync problems. last time, toshiba released a patch. shoot, what was that movie again...digital bits talked about it.

edit: all i could find was it wasn't a movie, but the analogue outs on earlier toshiba units. not the same thing, i bet...