[theJoKell]

Originally posted by tooki:
It IS working the way the Panasonic engineers wanted it to -- which isn't what you expected. It doesn't change the fact that arguing it over and over with me won't change a damned thing. I joined into this conversation to add a perspective of why it works how it does, and how they arrived at the numbers they did. Is it deceptive on their part? That's for you to decide. But arguing it with me is stupid. (May I point out that I responded to this thread before you ever chimed in, and when you did, you were adversarial and condescending from the beginning?)

tooki

First of all, my first post was neither adversarial nor condescending at all. It was only after your "I'm right and don't even bother arguing with me" posts that I started to respond in kind. But that's beside the point.

The entire point of this argument is that the 8x Superdrives are not burning at 8x, or even anywhere near 8x. Even if it was only rated as an "up to 8x" drive, averaging a 4x burn on one kind of media and 2x burns on the rest is completely unacceptable. It doesn't matter what kind of technology the drive uses or doesn't use. If they are advertised as "up to 8x" they should at least realize speeds somewhere close to 8x at some point. To never reach a speed over half of the rated speed is a problem.

Or should people be happy with 2x burns?

[U n i o n 0015]

This whole thread has gotten derailed.

tooki keeps telling us that the drive is working properly and neither I (or anyone else experiencing the problem) is buying it. These drives are clearly supposed to burn AT 8X WITH Apple media--they're not--and I don't think tooki has any authority in saying that Panasonic themselves are wrong on their own site. Not to mention the mountain of people having ZERO problems with full-speed PC-side burning.

If you want to see antagonistic, tooki, you immediately came into this discussion and told us that WE were wrong. You were the one who brought the typical "customer is an idiot" tech support attitude to this discussion. That is why people are arguing with you.

The only authority to say whether the drive is functioning properly is Apple or Panasonic (Matshita).

Has anyone actually spoken to Apple on this issue? Someone on the Apple boards said they were looking into it. I plan on calling myself when I have some time.

[tooki]

Originally posted by U n i o n 0015:
This whole thread has gotten derailed.

1. tooki keeps telling us that the drive is working properly and neither I (or anyone else experiencing the problem) is buying it. These drives are clearly supposed to burn AT 8X WITH Apple media--they're not--and I don't think tooki has any authority in saying that Panasonic themselves are wrong on their own site.


2. Not to mention the mountain of people having ZERO problems with full-speed PC-side burning.

3. If you want to see antagonistic, tooki, you immediately came into this discussion and told us that WE were wrong. You were the one who brought the typical "customer is an idiot" tech support attitude to this discussion. That is why people are arguing with you.

The only authority to say whether the drive is functioning properly is Apple or Panasonic (Matshita).

Has anyone actually spoken to Apple on this issue? Someone on the Apple boards said they were looking into it. I plan on calling myself when I have some time.

1. IT IS NOT AN 8X DRIVE, it is an "8x max" drive -- it will never, ever average to 8x burning. Nobody has done the test I described earlier to verify whether the drive is achieving 8x at any point in time -- if it's not, there is a serious problem.

2. In fact, I HAVE found evidence of PC people reporting similar real-world burn times. I even provided a link.

3. I came in to explain what was going on. You just don't wanna hear it.



Here's a really good analogy to the whole "x speed" vs "x max speed" thing: imagine a train route. It has straightaways and curves. A regular train runs that route at, say, 30MPH throughout. Then they come out with a high-speed train, which advertises speeds "up to 60MPH". The thing is, this train can't do 60 in the curves, so much of the time, it can't go any faster than the 30MPH of the regular train. So on average, the high-speed train will be faster -- your journey will end sooner -- but you won't be anywhere near twice as fast. The time savings would, of course, depend on the route. An all-curves route would give the faster train no advantage at all.

Optical disc burning is like a route that starts curvy and gets straighter as you go. You'll get an improvement, but it won't be what you expect.

Now, some drives are like a high-speed train with tilting technology that lets it take the curves at full speed. If THAT train also has a top speed of 60MPH, then it would in fact halve your travel time.

Right now, though, we know for a fact (because of Apple's spec sheet) that the drive in question can't "take the curves at full speed".


Finally, there are actually two questions here: one is whether the drive is capable of writing at full 8x speed at all, and the other is what media the drive likes. This distinction seems to be eluding some.


tooki

[asxless]

Originally posted by tooki:
...
Right now, though, we know for a fact (because of Apple's spec sheet) that the drive in question can't "take the curves at full speed".
...]

tooki,

You've done a very eloquent job of explaining why you believe these new PowerBook SuperDrives are simply not capable of burning a DVD-R at a true 8x on anybody's 8x media. But in large measure your argument depends of those three little words "at up to" in the PowerBook's spec sheet.

I'm sure you have already done this, but other's may be interested in checking out the PowerMac G5's spec sheet where it says...

"Optical drive bay with SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW) installed; writes DVD-R discs at up to 8x speed..." [emphasis mine]

Would you also argue that the PowerMac's SuperDrive has the same speed limitation when burning a full 4+GB on Apple's 8x DVD-R media?

-- asxless in iLand

[theJoKell]

Originally posted by tooki:
1. IT IS NOT AN 8X DRIVE, it is an "8x max" drive -- it will never, ever average to 8x burning. Nobody has done the test I described earlier to verify whether the drive is achieving 8x at any point in time -- if it's not, there is a serious problem.

2. In fact, I HAVE found evidence of PC people reporting similar real-world burn times. I even provided a link.

3. I came in to explain what was going on. You just don't wanna hear it.



Here's a really good analogy to the whole "x speed" vs "x max speed" thing: imagine a train route. It has straightaways and curves. A regular train runs that route at, say, 30MPH throughout. Then they come out with a high-speed train, which advertises speeds "up to 60MPH". The thing is, this train can't do 60 in the curves, so much of the time, it can't go any faster than the 30MPH of the regular train. So on average, the high-speed train will be faster -- your journey will end sooner -- but you won't be anywhere near twice as fast. The time savings would, of course, depend on the route. An all-curves route would give the faster train no advantage at all.

Optical disc burning is like a route that starts curvy and gets straighter as you go. You'll get an improvement, but it won't be what you expect.

Now, some drives are like a high-speed train with tilting technology that lets it take the curves at full speed. If THAT train also has a top speed of 60MPH, then it would in fact halve your travel time.

Right now, though, we know for a fact (because of Apple's spec sheet) that the drive in question can't "take the curves at full speed".


Finally, there are actually two questions here: one is whether the drive is capable of writing at full 8x speed at all, and the other is what media the drive likes. This distinction seems to be eluding some.


tooki

According to Panasonic (the manufacturer), it *is* an 8x drive:
http://www.panasonic-industrial.com/..._l2/index.html
Doing a search on Google for the Panasonic UJ-835 reveals a ton of pages describing it as an 8x drive, not an 8x max drive.

And I looked back but I couldn't see this test you refer to. Could you point to it or post it again so I can run it?

[tooki]

Originally posted by asxless:
Would you also argue that the PowerMac's SuperDrive has the same speed limitation when burning a full 4+GB on Apple's 8x DVD-R media?

I would expect that it doesn't reach "true" 8x speed, but chances are the real-world write performance will be different from the PB's drive, because it's a different model that may use a different write strategy (for example, how many zones it divides the burn into, the speed within the non-fastest zones, what speed it burns the lead-in and lead-out at, etc) combined with hopefully more-robust motors and optics.

tooki

[asxless]

tooki,

Chris did the speed test you suggested and reported it in the middle of page 2 of this thread.

Originally posted by Chris_G:
Sustainable rate at the end of a 4.7GB burn is about 8 MB/s... less than 10.5 MB/s but faster than a 4x burner (about 5.4 MB/s). Speeds at the beginning of the burn are about 2.3 MB/s, in the middle 5.4 MB/s and only at the very end (i.e. the last 1 minute or so) do I see 8 MB/s. On the other hand, the DVR-104 sustains a rate of 5.4 MB/s for the entire burn. If this is truely what an 8x burner is suppose to do whats the point? Its no faster than a 4x burner... plain and simple. Does this type of burning strategy conserve power? If so, great, but don't label the burner as an 8x burner. To me, this still seems like misleading advertising.

Cheers!
Chris

-- asxless in iLand

[tooki]

Originally posted by theJoKell:
1. According to Panasonic (the manufacturer), it *is* an 8x drive:
http://www.panasonic-industrial.com/..._l2/index.html
Doing a search on Google for the Panasonic UJ-835 reveals a ton of pages describing it as an 8x drive, not an 8x max drive.

2. And I looked back but I couldn't see this test you refer to. Could you point to it or post it again so I can run it?

1. I already commented on Panasonic Europe's spec sheet in this post. That spec sheet is extremely basic (certainly compared to those most companies post), and since they're not totally contradictory, I'm inclined to believe Apple's detailed spec sheet (which Apple has to live up to since they are advertising it as such to the consumer). I also have seen more than one reseller describing it as 8x max, and contrasting it with the UJ-845's "full 8x" burning. Remember that just like consumers, many sites gloss over the "max" or "up to" when entering the product info.

2. This post has the test I described. Somebody should do it; I don't have a UJ-835 drive to test.

tooki

[tooki]

Originally posted by asxless:
Chris did the speed test you suggested and reported it in the middle of page 2 of this thread.

Oh yeah, right, he did. ::brain fart::

Anyhow, it might be good for a few people to do it, with various media, to see what's really going on. If the drive never reaches 10.5MB/sec (plus minus a bit), then there's really a problem.

And I do agree that some of these write strategies are one step forward, one step back.

tooki

[theJoKell]

Well I think I've verified one problem with this particular drive. I got in touch with someone at the RiTEK Corporation (in Taiwan, not the US division) and he was able to verify that the G05 discs are properly speed coded for 8x and the G04 discs are properly speed coded for 4x.

The Superdrive defaulting to 2x with both of these discs is a definite problem.

[Stratus Fear]

Originally posted by theJoKell:
Well I think I've verified one problem with this particular drive. I got in touch with someone at the RiTEK Corporation (in Taiwan, not the US division) and he was able to verify that the G05 discs are properly speed coded for 8x and the G04 discs are properly speed coded for 4x.

The Superdrive defaulting to 2x with both of these discs is a definite problem.

Yes. And RiTEK discs are pretty good, too. I'm still convinced it has little to do with the media; it's most likely one of two things -- an unreasonably picky drive (firmware containing the write strategies is far too conservative), or it's a very poorly engineered drive. Neither of which is Apple's fault, for the apologists out there.

[tooki]

Out of curiosity, does that Ritek media burn at 4x if you set it to burn at 4x? (And what about 6x, if that's an option?)

tooki

[U n i o n 0015]

Originally posted by tooki:
Out of curiosity, does that Ritek media burn at 4x if you set it to burn at 4x? (And what about 6x, if that's an option?)

tooki

No one's been able to get Toast or the Finder to detect RiTeks beyond 2X on the UJ-835E.

[asxless]

Originally posted by Stratus Fear:
...I'm still convinced it has little to do with the media; it's most likely one of two things -- an unreasonably picky drive (firmware containing the write strategies is far too conservative), or it's a very poorly engineered drive. ...

Actually, it is _quite likely_ that the firmware and/or hardware in this drive was modified to Apple's specs. Note: From other reports, this drive does not recognize DVD-RAM at all. Yet the specs for the drive list it as capable of "3X Speed DVD-RAM Writing".

FWIW: Apple has had special firmware/hardware in previous SuperDrives. Pioneer even had a different model number for the early SuperDrives they furnished Apple and cautioned people not to update the firmware on "Pioneer" drives with the update provided by Apple and vis versa.

-- asxless in iLand

[Stratus Fear]

Originally posted by asxless:
Actually, it is _quite likely_ that the firmware and/or hardware in this drive was modified to Apple's specs. Note: From other reports, this drive does not recognize DVD-RAM at all. Yet the specs for the drive list it as capable of "3X Speed DVD-RAM Writing".

FWIW: Apple has had special firmware/hardware in previous SuperDrives. Pioneer even had a different model number for the early SuperDrives they furnished Apple and cautioned people not to update the firmware on "Pioneer" drives with the update provided by Apple and vis versa.

-- asxless in iLand

Oh, I do know that much, but I'm not sure why Apple would restrict the media you can burn to at a reasonable speed (the result of which would effectively make you buy their product - the media). That's deceptive and could get them in trouble. That's why I'm hesitant to blame it on them.

[DVGuy]

Originally posted by Stratus Fear:
Oh, I do know that much, but I'm not sure why Apple would restrict the media you can burn to at a reasonable speed (the result of which would effectively make you buy their product - the media). That's deceptive and could get them in trouble. That's why I'm hesitant to blame it on them.

Another problem with that theory is that the drive doesn't reach actual 8x speeds EVEN WITH APPLE MEDIA! If I could get away with selling a DVD-R drive with the label "32x" or "64x" or some insane speed and the drive never actually reached that writing speed, how long would it be before somebody filed a lawsuit against me? I don't know why it seems that everyone is so willing to make excuses for Apple when they do stupid things with their products. Why hamper the drive via firmware??

Clearly, the DVDRAM features have been removed from this drive. Clearly, the media cataloge in the firmware is FAR too restrictive. Yet, the faithful turn a blind eye to the truth: The 835E, due to Apple's firmware, doesn't perform anywhere near its rated speed.

[U n i o n 0015]

Where did you guys find out that the DVD-RAM features were removed? I checked the Apple tech specs and it doesn't even mention support for writing that format.

I took some media from work (I work at a duplication house). This is extremely reliable stuff--we use it for hundreds of orders a month--definitely speed-coded properly, so I'll go home and try tooki's test to see if I can even hit 10.5MB/sec with this drive.

[asxless]

Originally posted by U n i o n 0015:
Where did you guys find out that the DVD-RAM features were removed? I checked the Apple tech specs and it doesn't even mention support for writing that format....

Maybe that's because Apple had the DVD-RAM feature disabled

Seriously, the info that the UJ-835-B supports DVD-RAM is on the European site that people have provided links to above. And people on the Apple discusion forums have posted that DVD-RAM doesn't work in the UJ-835E in the new PowerBooks.

Actually, I've been wondering if the UJ-835E with GAN7 firmware is even used in anything other than Apple products.

-- asxless in iLand

PS I'd try tooki's test too, but my PowerBook says all my 8x DVD-R media is only 2x

[tooki]

Originally posted by DVGuy:
Clearly, the DVDRAM features have been removed from this drive. Clearly, the media cataloge in the firmware is FAR too restrictive. Yet, the faithful turn a blind eye to the truth: The 835E, due to Apple's firmware, doesn't perform anywhere near its rated speed.

You're drawing false conclusions. Apple does use a custom firmware to disable DVD-RAM support, but the slow 8x burn speeds have been reported on PCs, as well as on the successor model.

So it's not just the Apple firmware that has 8x burn speeds below expectations, it's on PCs just as much. (I have to point out that since the PC world doesn't use slot-load drives too often, this particular model doesn't show up in too many PCs. But I bet that if you looked up the tray-loading brother, you'd find similar reports.)

tooki

P.S. Lots of people have used firmware updaters to install full-featured, DVD-RAM enabled, region-free firmware on their UJ-815 and 816 models, and no doubt similar firmware will be released for the 825, 835, and eventually 845.

[DVGuy]

Originally posted by tooki:
You're drawing false conclusions. Apple does use a custom firmware to disable DVD-RAM support, but the slow 8x burn speeds have been reported on PCs, as well as on the successor model.

So it's not just the Apple firmware that has 8x burn speeds below expectations, it's on PCs just as much. (I have to point out that since the PC world doesn't use slot-load drives too often, this particular model doesn't show up in too many PCs. But I bet that if you looked up the tray-loading brother, you'd find similar reports.)

tooki

P.S. Lots of people have used firmware updaters to install full-featured, DVD-RAM enabled, region-free firmware on their UJ-815 and 816 models, and no doubt similar firmware will be released for the 825, 835, and eventually 845.

My conclusions are valid.

1. The firmware controls the media catalog. It is too restrictive. Apple's fault.
2. The DVD-RAM features were removed by the firmware. Apple's fault.

Is it your contention that we should wait for some third party to create a "hacked" firmware to provide the features that Apple SHOULD already provide?

[Stratus Fear]

Originally posted by DVGuy:
My conclusions are valid.

1. The firmware controls the media catalog. It is too restrictive. Apple's fault.
2. The DVD-RAM features were removed by the firmware. Apple's fault.

Is it your contention that we should wait for some third party to create a "hacked" firmware to provide the features that Apple SHOULD already provide?

It's likely that the firmware was created for Apple and not by Apple. In the case that PC drives of the same model also have slow burns, then it would most likely be the fault of the people that wrote the firmwares, seeing as how it's most likely that they used the same media catalog for each firmware. The lack of DVD-RAM support would be Apple's fault, though, since they most likely required that the support be taken out of the firmware.

[U n i o n 0015]

Alright, here are some of my findings using the DVD-R media we use at work.

I was able to get the "8X" burn option in Finder.
I burned a 3.7GB DVD (just threw a bunch of video files onto a DVD, sorry, couldn't find anything on my computer that would give me 4.7GB)

I used Activity Monitor, Disk Activity tab to monitor the results. tooki said to look at the red line, but my red line didn't do anything during the burn. Only the green data in/sec line gave any results. And those results are:

Held pretty steady at 5.6MB/sec for the first couple of minutes, then jumped to a solid 17MB/sec for the rest of the burn. Sometimes it would drop down to 11MB/sec and then 7MB/sec, but nothing lower.

Burn time was from 6:08pm to 6:17pm.

8X speeds? I imagine so, but the disc wasn't even full and still took 9 minutes!

[asxless]

Originally posted by Stratus Fear:
It's likely that the firmware was created for Apple and not by Apple.....]

Let's get serious folks.

This blame game is a 'fools errand' in today's global economy where hardly any single company constructs/manufactures/builds ANYTHING without depending on subcontractors, which in turn develop or modify their product(s) to meet specifications set by their customers.

Apple does not even _assemble_ these PowerBooks. But Apple does _design_ them -- it says so right on [edit: in] the box. Furthermore, Apple is fully responsible for EVERY component in these PowerBooks whether or not they 'built' it -- hence their warranty of the final product.

Whether the firmware was created for or by Apple is irrelevant. Apple specified this UJ-835E drive with the current firmware as part of Apple's design of their new PowerBooks. It either meets Apple's advertised technical specs or it doesn't. This optical drive's spec is no different than the LCD spec - it is either "15.2-inch (diagonal), 1280 x 854 resolution, TFT widescreen" or it's not. It is Apple's responsibility to quality control and test the final product to confirm that it meets their own specs. Somehow I don't think many of us would be blaming the LCD manufacture if our new PowerBook was only able to display 640x480

If Apple does not believe that the current UJ-835E 'SuperDrive' meets their specifications, they should be instituting a fix (firmware/hardware) like they have for the batteries, etc. in the past. But these days Apple rarely publicly admits an error until it has developed a fix. So we are unlikely to hear whether Apple is working on a fix until it happens (or doesn't)

-- asxless in iLand

BTW a 'SuperDrive" is not like tires on a car. It is an integral part of the PowerBook. In fact, there is only one internal component of a PowerBook that Apple will even allow the end user to replace or upgrade without voiding the warranty - RAM.

[DVGuy]

As far as the firmware issue is concerned, Apple's software engineers work with the OEM partners to write the drivers and/or firmware for the devices (think about how Apple works with ATI for video drivers, for example) and these firmware/drivers only get released by Apple. They have the final say on when (or in our case IF) a fix will ever be made. Apple's track record on these kind of issues is to stonewall and blame the end-user, the media being used, the Republican party, plate tectonics, relative humidity, etc. before accepting that there MAY indeed be an isse which they need to look at seriously.

I did the math and I have owned 34 Macs in 11.5 years and EVERY time I have had an issue like this, the same defensive attitude crops up on the other end of the phone. The user is always to blame until he/she can prove otherwise, which we will determine "on a case by case basis." Sound familiar to anyone else?

[Simon]

Originally posted by U n i o n 0015:
Burn time was from 6:08pm to 6:17pm.

8X speeds? I imagine so, but the disc wasn't even full and still took 9 minutes!

3.7 GB in 6:17 corresponds to 7:59 for 4.7 GB. That sounds very good and actually that's true 8x burning!

[tooki]

Originally posted by DVGuy:
My conclusions are valid.

1. The firmware controls the media catalog. It is too restrictive. Apple's fault.
2. The DVD-RAM features were removed by the firmware. Apple's fault.

2. Correct.
1. How many times do I have to tell you that the PC world is reporting the same burning speeds?!? Those PCs darned well aren't using drives with Apple's custom firmware.

Your conclusion remains false.

tooki

[tooki]

Originally posted by Simon:
3.7 GB in 6:17 corresponds to 7:59 for 4.7 GB. That sounds very good and actually that's true 8x burning!

Uhh, he said it finished at 6:17pm, not that it took 6 minutes and 17 seconds. His burn took 9 minutes.

And again, since it's Zoned CLV writing, the write time cannot be extrapolated for a non-full disc.

tooki

[Simon]

Originally posted by tooki:
Uhh, he said it finished at 6:17pm, not that it took 6 minutes and 17 seconds. His burn took 9 minutes.

Duh. Not enough sleep, not enough coffee, not enough correction in my glasses. I'm an idiot. Forget what I posted.

[U n i o n 0015]

I'll try a full burn tonight (burning an mp3 collection should work, right?).

I'll post the results.

[Stratus Fear]

Originally posted by asxless:
Whether the firmware was created for or by Apple is irrelevant. Apple specified this UJ-835E drive with the current firmware as part of Apple's design of their new PowerBooks. It either meets Apple's advertised technical specs or it doesn't.

Isn't that more or less the idea? Like I said, the crappy firmware might not be their fault. Although, I was leaving it open for somebody to say "But it's Apple's job to do something about it," which is in fact true. There's two parts to this. One where Panasonic is at fault and the other where Apple is. Apple is at fault for not going after Panasonic to fix their stuff, not for a poorly coded firmware. I highly doubt Apple wrote the firmware for the drive, but I do believe they obviously had a hand in the spec of the design of it. The point I was trying to make with this was, since Panasonic probably wrote both firmwares, you can easily compare to the same drive in a PC, and say that it's not just an Apple problem, but something the manufacturer needs to fix, and something Apple needs to ride their ass about.

[Eug Wanker]

For 8X media, I buy Apple, and a couple of other well-respected name brands.

Memorex is too inconsistent - mediocre.
Sony media (strangely enough) is too inconsistent - mediocre.
Ritek is at best poor to mediocre.
Princo outright sucks.

In fact, I usually just buy Apple 8X media only, because it is the best bang for the buck, unless the branded Maxell stuff is on sale.

BTW, I have come to those conclusions using a 16X LG/Hitachi desktop drive, and other drives.

I still don't understand why there is this online fascination with Ritek media. I have used it on multiple drives on multiple machines, and the conclusion is always the same. It's just not as consistent as Apple media.

[tooki]

What's your opinion of Verbatim and MAM-A (nee Mitsui) media?

tooki

[theJoKell]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
For 8X media, I buy Apple, and a couple of other well-respected name brands.

Memorex is too inconsistent - mediocre.
Sony media (strangely enough) is too inconsistent - mediocre.
Ritek is at best poor to mediocre.
Princo outright sucks.

In fact, I usually just buy Apple 8X media only, because it is the best bang for the buck, unless the branded Maxell stuff is on sale.

BTW, I have come to those conclusions using a 16X LG/Hitachi desktop drive, and other drives.

I still don't understand why there is this online fascination with Ritek media. I have used it on multiple drives on multiple machines, and the conclusion is always the same. It's just not as consistent as Apple media.

I've never once had a single coaster with my Ritek discs. And since Apple charges double what any other brand costs I'm not willing to pay for that.

The only brand I would be willing to pay more for is Taiyo Yuden, but I have had such good results with Ritek that I don't need to.

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by tooki:
What's your opinion of Verbatim and MAM-A (nee Mitsui) media?

The Mitsui and Verbatim DVD media I've used have been excellent but I've only ever used 4X. 8X Verbatim costs as much as Apple media around here. I have never used media labelled as MAM-A.

Originally posted by theJoKell:
I've never once had a single coaster with my Ritek discs. And since Apple charges double what any other brand costs I'm not willing to pay for that.

The only brand I would be willing to pay more for is Taiyo Yuden, but I have had such good results with Ritek that I don't need to.

Well, I've had lots of coasters with some runs of the Ritek. ie. Too inconsistent. YMMV.

As for pricing, Apple media costs US$31 (educational) for a spool of 25. That's $1.24 each. I'm in Canada, but the pricing is similar. Plus I get free shipping from Apple.

Taiyo Yuden is good, and indeed costs half as much via mail order, but after paying for shipping, it costs just as much, and nobody around here sells the Taiyo Yuden 25 spindles for cheap.

I don't care how much the Ritek media costs, because IMHO it's not worth the hassle.

[theJoKell]

Originally posted by Eug Wanker:
The Mitsui and Verbatim DVD media I've used have been excellent but I've only ever used 4X. 8X Verbatim costs as much as Apple media around here. I have never used media labelled as MAM-A.


Well, I've had lots of coasters with some runs of the Ritek. ie. Too inconsistent. YMMV.

As for pricing, Apple media costs US$31 (educational) for a spool of 25. That's $1.24 each. I'm in Canada, but the pricing is similar. Plus I get free shipping from Apple.

Taiyo Yuden is good, and indeed costs half as much via mail order, but after paying for shipping, it costs just as much, and nobody around here sells the Taiyo Yuden 25 spindles for cheap.

I don't care how much the Ritek media costs, because IMHO it's not worth the hassle.

You're the only one I've seen who's had a "hassle" with Ritek media. And since it's only $25 for a 50 spindle, I'm not touching the Apple stuff. I could afford to have 25 coasters in there and still make out on top.

[tooki]

But you would waste a ton of time burning 1/2 coasters, and it might keep you from meeting a deadline if you got a couple of coasters in a row. I'd sooner buy reliable, consistent media that I know will work every time.

tooki

P.S. Search the web -- he's not the only person to have problems with Ritek. No brand has 100% satisfaction, I'm sorry to say.

[theJoKell]

Originally posted by tooki:
But you would waste a ton of time burning 1/2 coasters, and it might keep you from meeting a deadline if you got a couple of coasters in a row. I'd sooner buy reliable, consistent media that I know will work every time.

tooki

P.S. Search the web -- he's not the only person to have problems with Ritek. No brand has 100% satisfaction, I'm sorry to say.

Except I've never had a coaster. I've been through probably 3 50 disc spindles and not a single coaster has come out. Why would I pay more than twice the cost for something that can't possibly be more reliable for me?

[tooki]

Didn't the beginning of this thread involve Ritek media not working in the drive this thread is about?!?

I certainly agree that if they work for you, by all means keep buying them if you are happy with them. Others prefer to buy more expensive media that seem to have more consistent quality, and that's cool too.

tooki

[theJoKell]

Originally posted by tooki:
Didn't the beginning of this thread involve Ritek media not working in the drive this thread is about?!?

Yep, but that's a problem with the drive, not with the media (as I have confirmed that they are properly speed coded). Which I guess is what this is all about anyway...

[asxless]

As reminder...

We have reports of ONLY 5 'brands' of 8x media that are recognized as 8x by these drives...

Apple (coded MXL RG03)
Maxell (coded MXL RG03)
Verbatim (could be coded MCC 02RG20 or TYG02)
Fuji - Yuden (probably coded TYG02)
Memorex* (could be coded as MCC 02RG20, CMC MAG. AE1, FUJIFILM03.., ProdiscF01.., or RITEKG05.... )

* Note: Memorex coded as CMC MAG. AE1 was _not_ recognized as 8x media. And we have a number of reports of other media 'brands' that are not recognised as 8x.

So these new drives would only need to recognize 3 different 8x media codes to explain all of the reports so far - MXL RG03, MCC 02RG20 & TYG02.

-- asxless in iLand

[Eug Wanker]

Originally posted by theJoKell:
Yep, but that's a problem with the drive, not with the media (as I have confirmed that they are properly speed coded). Which I guess is what this is all about anyway...

It's also a problem with the media. Certain drives will try to burn Ritek 8X at 8X, only to have problems.

While it may work great for you, given my experiences with cheap media, I only pay for known quality. BTW, the worst is NOT burning coasters. It's a big waste of time and it's frustrating, but what's even worse is burning a "good" disc, only to find out 3 months later there are read errors with certain DVD-ROMs or DVD players. Now, you can blame the DVD-ROMs and DVD players, but I just can't deal with the hassle.

I had this experience with Ritek 2X media, and have had the same experience with 8X. YMMV of course, depending on your burners and your DVD players and DVD-ROM drives.

[jbianchini]

I have the new powerbook with the 8x drive and I use Sony DVD-R's listed at 8X and when burning with Toast I get 8x speeds. Full 4.4 gig disk burns in about 6:30 or so...Sony media for me is all I buy (for now)

[asxless]

Originally posted by jbianchini:
I have the new powerbook with the 8x drive and I use Sony DVD-R's listed at 8X and when burning with Toast I get 8x speeds. Full 4.4 gig disk burns in about 6:30 or so...Sony media for me is all I buy (for now)

WOW! You are the first person with a new PowerBook to report burning 4+GB in under 12 minutes with any 8x media.

Did you use a separate timer or did you depend of Toast's timer?

Could you confirm the Drive's specs using Apple Profiler? You can just select About this Mac and then click More info...

And post the "code" on the Sony 8x media using DVD Media Inspector? http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/17154 After selecting your drive, the code appears in the lower window pane beginning about 1/2 way across the 2nd line.

Thanks in Advance - asxless in iLand

[theJoKell]

Originally posted by jbianchini:
I have the new powerbook with the 8x drive and I use Sony DVD-R's listed at 8X and when burning with Toast I get 8x speeds. Full 4.4 gig disk burns in about 6:30 or so...Sony media for me is all I buy (for now)

Just because Toast shows 6:30 doesn't mean it actually finished in 6:30.

[DVGuy]

Level 2 tech support is forwarding this problem to Engineering. I should know an answer by next week.

[jbianchini]

I'm home from College right now, but when I get back on sunday I'll burn a DVD just for you guys

[scribbler74]

i have the powerbook 1.5 and these disks work fine for me.

before everyone who has been ranting about drive problems continues, you should know this...

not all media is created equal... not even if the same name is on the package... companies like Fulifilm, etc... are cranking out an obscene amount of DVD media for consumers... and sometimes, there is a discrepency in the quality of that media, EVEN if those disks "look" identical...

for instance, i purchased a ten pack of Fujifilm 8x DVD-R and had no problems burning them at the 8x speed... When i purchased identical looking disks from Fujifilm in the 50 pack, i got 2x speed... Just from looking at the disks side by side, it was nearly impossible to detect any differnces... however, upon closer inspection, there were visible differences in the plastic itself around the center hole...

Most of these manufactures are pumping out BILLIONS of disks, doing what they can to make them compatible with every player, however, my conspiracy theory, is that they might be more concerned with PC based burners/codes etc...

Again, for the Powerbook G4, i've had very good success with the Memorex 8x 25 Pack... While, one might assume the 50 or 100 pack will work just the same, I believe now that it is possible they won't...

If you purchase from major stores, they shouldn't have a problem allowing you to return the disks... if you use Roxio Popcorn, you can find out if the disk is compatible at the right speed without burning it... though i'm sure you can other ways...

hope this helps someone...

[scribbler74]

an ammendment to my post above... i didn't realize the subject line wouldn't be visible... the media i'm using are...

MEMOREX DVD-R 8x the serial number in the ring is EK083A 0009 if anyone wants to be really specific.

[asxless]

Originally posted by scribbler74:
...MEMOREX DVD-R 8x the serial number in the ring is EK083A 0009 if anyone wants to be really specific.

Could you confirm the your PowerBook's drive's specs using Apple Profiler? You can just select About this Mac and then click More info...

And please post the "code" on the Memorex 8x media using DVD Media Inspector? http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/17154 After selecting your drive, the code appears in the lower window pane beginning about 1/2 way across the 2nd line.

Thanks in Advance - asxless in iLand

[U n i o n 0015]

We also need to know if you are burning at true "8X" or just being given the option of burning at "8X". We're finding that just because we are given the option doesn't mean you are achieving 8X speeds...more like 4X.