[ThinkInsane]

Blah blah blah, whine whine (snivel snivel), so on and so forth.

[ThinkInsane]

Ok, after rereading the thread, and not just the childish insult parts, I have recanted and opened it back up. There is some good discussion in it, but it has to move to politics.

[paully dub]

Hmm... I predict that now (rightfully) off the lounge, and into the deep dark abyss known as the Political/war forum, George Bush stands a fine chance of becoming the president of.......
























MacNN

[philzilla]

Originally posted by ThinkInsane:
Ok, after rereading the thread, and not just the childish insult parts, I have recanted and opened it back up. There is some good discussion in it, but it has to move to politics.

you're a moderator. moderate the thread. prune it. snip out the parts which made you close it in the first place.

jeez, what do they teach at moderating school these days?

[ambush]

Originally posted by ghost_flash:
fixed.

ok. fix this one too.

boosh the awol national guardsman can go back to riding his bike pissed to the gills.

[ambush]

Originally posted by ThinkInsane:
Ok, after rereading the thread, and not just the childish insult parts, I have recanted and opened it back up. There is some good discussion in it, but it has to move to politics.

Don't be too sad 'cause Bush isn't winning

[Atomic Rooster]

Originally posted by wdlove:
My vote is for Bush. Socialism would be the wrong road for America.

Yeah, fascism is much better. You don't really have a clue what's going on do you? What are you a monk in a monastery on top of some mountain in appalachia?

[ThinkInsane]

Originally posted by ambush:
Don't be too sad 'cause Bush isn't winning

What are you going on about? I'm not voting for either of those two jackasses.

Jansar, change your signature, post haste. It's out of line, and cash can fill you in on what happens after someone reports it.

[vmarks]

Originally posted by Jansar:
If Kerry wins the election, I'm leaving the country. Bush is the only person that can successfully be our President today.

Given the direction that much of Europe and Canada seem to be heading in, and Russia's position in the War On Terror, the folks in Australia's parliament who chose to excercise their free speech, decorum, and represent their country by shouting down Mr. Bush:

Where, precisely, do you envision a political climate that is more to your liking?

[itai195]

Well isnt' this thread a lovely little microcosm of our American political environment. Here's an instructive excerpt I call 'thoughts of a Bush supporter:'

Originally posted by ghost_flash:
So, tell me. Did he stick himself with the knife before or after he massacred people in the free-fire zone?

I can see it now. (Fade to flashback simulation)

There he is, John F-ing Kerry in the Free Fire Zone... "I got to get out of this place" is playing in the background...

There he is, manning the 50 cal. cutting people down in the rice patties....thinking, man, I gotta ... get....outa....this....place.... Hey! epiphany. I'll just stab myself in the, the, arm! yeah, then I'll put myself up for the Purple Heart.

(4 months later)

Hey (Joe) < Name made up to protect the innocent. >

Can I have your medals? Not the ribbons, the medals.... Yeah, I'll give them back later.

"Take that!" :::: Tosses (Joe's medals at the Whitehouse). Heh...


Hey! I think I'll run for the Senate! Then vote against every weapons bill that comes up, so that our guys in the field won't be able to kill anyone! Yah....Yah....

I'll vote for them before I vote against them, errrr.....


I'll be thought of as Honorable, and have loads of integrety too.... I may even, even Run for President myself. Not because I am a power hungry womanizing (Rich only) liberal dufus, but because I want to make a difference. Spread peace and prosperity across America.


YEAH!

[besson3c]

Originally posted by ghost_flash:
Anyway, I'll just support the better man President George W. Bush, and you can support sKerry.

Your arguments for Bush all seem to come back to what you think is bad about Kerry. Do you have any positive things to say about Bush, or is he just the lesser of two evils?

I honestly can't think of anything truely positive Bush has done for the US.

[ambush]

Originally posted by wdlove:
My vote is for Bush. Socialism would be the wrong road for America.

If I base myself on the text in the Holy Bible, Jesus was far from being a capitalist. He acted like socialist.

[besson3c]

Israel vs. Palestine: a lot of the world's frustration and terrorist inspiration stems from historic US backing of Israel. Bush helps this cause by jumping into the bed of Ariel Sharrone - his position probably re-inforced by his religious beliefs. I'm not trying to take an anti-Israel stance here, but if the US wants to make this situation better they need to be more neutral.

Bin Laden: Bin who?

Iraq war: created based on crappy intelligence, full of political interest and corruption (e.g. ties to oil), just a complete mess. The best way to get yourself out of a hole is to stop digging. While this doesn't necessarily mean we should pull out immeidately, a vote for Bush is a means to continue digging, although Bush will try to make you believe that he is the only human being on this planet capable of getting us out of this hole.

Gay marriage: to me, this is a non-argument. Bush's position is clearly reinforced, again, by his religious beliefs. Maybe some day we'll evolve from the stone age. The only arguments I've heard against supporting gay marriage seem to be a general dissent towards change, and religious stuff.

Terrorism in general: probably worse, certainly no better. See crappy foreign policy (above). Anybody in IT knows that there is no network that is *completly* secure and no amount of technology or money that can make it so. What Bush is creating is a bunch of hackers just waiting to penetrate his "network".

Economy: crap

Environmental policy: crap/non-existent

Dependance on oil: reinforced

Separation of church and state: shot

Allies: diminishing


While this sounds hypocritical having invited Bush supporters to say something positive Bush has done while clearly calling for not re-electing Bush, Kerry does seem to at least do some good lip service about addressing (improving) these issues. Whether he will follow through on his ideas has yet to be seen. Bush will just stay the course.

[MindFad]

Originally posted by besson3c:
Israel vs. Palestine: a lot of the world's frustration and terrorist inspiration stems from historic US backing of Israel. Bush helps this cause by jumping into the bed of Ariel Sharrone - his position probably re-inforced by his religious beliefs. I'm not trying to take an anti-Israel stance here, but if the US wants to make this situation better they need to be more neutral.

Bin Laden: Bin who?

Iraq war: created based on crappy intelligence, full of political interest and corruption (e.g. ties to oil), just a complete mess. The best way to get yourself out of a hole is to stop digging. While this doesn't necessarily mean we should pull out immeidately, a vote for Bush is a means to continue digging, although Bush will try to make you believe that he is the only human being on this planet capable of getting us out of this hole.

Gay marriage: to me, this is a non-argument. Bush's position is clearly reinforced, again, by his religious beliefs. Maybe some day we'll evolve from the stone age. The only arguments I've heard against supporting gay marriage seem to be a general dissent towards change, and religious stuff.

Terrorism in general: probably worse, certainly no better. See crappy foreign policy (above). Anybody in IT knows that there is no network that is *completly* secure and no amount of technology or money that can make it so. What Bush is creating is a bunch of hackers just waiting to penetrate his "network".

Economy: crap

Environmental policy: crap/non-existent

Dependance on oil: reinforced

Separation of church and state: shot

Allies: diminishing


While this sounds hypocritical having invited Bush supporters to say something positive Bush has done while clearly calling for not re-electing Bush, Kerry does seem to at least do some good lip service about addressing (improving) these issues. Whether he will follow through on his ideas has yet to be seen. Bush will just stay the course.

About the best and simplest way to break it all down.

[zachs]

Originally posted by besson3c:
Bush will just stay the course.

They call it "steady leadership." But in actuality, it's stubborn leadership.

[dzhim]

Economy: crap

Oh? I've been hearing otherwise, lately, but I'll take your word for it anyway. So much for the Wall Street Journal, saying:

By nearly every objective measure, the U.S. economy is strong and getting stronger. Just look at the Misery Index, the measure created by the late economist Arthur Okun adding the rates of unemployment and inflation. This may not be the most sophisticated of metrics, but it does capture the two greatest threats to household wealth and security. And it's indicating that, comparisons to the 1990s' bubble years excepted, the U.S. economy is doing very well.

This year's favorite bad news story has been the job market, especially outsourcing. Yet few bother to report that government data show that the U.S. is actually a net recipient of outsourcing jobs, and this surplus is widening.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editor...l?id=110004936

Terrorism in general: probably worse, certainly no better. See crappy foreign policy (above). Anybody in IT knows that there is no network that is *completly* secure and no amount of technology or money that can make it so. What Bush is creating is a bunch of hackers just waiting to penetrate his "network".

The problem with this line of reasoning is that the "hackers" have by and large always existed. Hence, the original bombing of the World Trade Center, various attacks on our embassies, the USS Cole, etc. over the last ten years? Twenty years? Longer?

It's ridiculous to suggest that attempting to "secure the network" is a bad thing. Certainly it's naive to believe that our country is completely invulnerable to terrorist attacks, because it isn't, and it probably never will be. So the other issue is being able to respond to attacks: to minimize the damage as much as possible, and then to find and punish those responsible for them. And if the Al Queda members the US has captured say, "Gee, we just thought they'd launch a few missiles at us" -- then I guess in the past we weren't doing such a good job of this.

[besson3c]

Originally posted by dzhim:
Oh? I've been hearing otherwise, lately, but I'll take your word for it anyway. So much for the Wall Street Journal, saying:


http://www.opinionjournal.com/editor...l?id=110004936

The economy has been approving lately, but for the most part during Bush's administration it's been all about policies which benefit the rich (e.g. dividend taxation). It's convenient to give Bush credit now, but I don't see this as cause and effect.

The problem with this line of reasoning is that the "hackers" have by and large always existed. Hence, the original bombing of the World Trade Center, various attacks on our embassies, the USS Cole, etc. over the last ten years? Twenty years? Longer?

It's ridiculous to suggest that attempting to "secure the network" is a bad thing. Certainly it's naive to believe that our country is completely invulnerable to terrorist attacks, because it isn't, and it probably never will be. So the other issue is being able to respond to attacks: to minimize the damage as much as possible, and then to find and punish those responsible for them. And if the Al Queda members the US has captured say, "Gee, we just thought they'd launch a few missiles at us" -- then I guess in the past we weren't doing such a good job of this.

Bush has been obsessing over terroroism. At every opportunity, he has been feeding us a diet of fear, and repeating the party line about the importance of fighting terrorism ad nauseum. How many times have you heard him go on about freedom and democracy, and all this stuff?

His work may have helped to prevent terrorism, or it may have been irrelevant. However, the way I see it, if the rest of the world weren't so pissed at us, there would much less need to sweat over terrorism.

[tsuki]

the worst and scariest part about a bush second term is the patriot act.he will make it permanent.

[besson3c]

Originally posted by tsuki:
the worst and scariest part about a bush second term is the patriot act.he will make it permanent.

I find it really funny that a democracy has been Bush's mantra, yet his administration has been incredibly secretive and he has been pushing for less civil liberties. Little about Bush's ideology seems like my kind of democracy.

[zachs]

Originally posted by besson3c:
I find it really funny that a democracy has been Bush's mantra, yet his administration has been incredibly secretive and he has been pushing for less civil liberties. Little about Bush's ideology seems like my kind of democracy.

They claim that the PATRIOT Act is necessary to find and catch terrorists. Yet, somehow, we managed to find, catch, and convict the terrorists involved in the first WTC bombing.

And Timothy McVeigh.

And Ahmed Ressam.

All without the PATRIOT Act.

[dzhim]

The economy has been [im]proving lately, but for the most part during Bush's administration it's been all about policies which benefit the rich (e.g. dividend taxation). It's convenient to give Bush credit now, but I don't see this as cause and effect.

Of course not. But it's the same natural causes of self-correction that pushed us into the slump a few years ago. Good economy or bad, it's a mistake to give too much credit to the incumbent. This stuff happens.

However, the way I see it, if the rest of the world weren't so pissed at us, there would much less need to sweat over terrorism.

But even if 99% of people in the world loved the US, there would still be literally millions out there who didn't. And the actions of terrorists aren't representative of all people anyway: these guys are nutcases, and it's the nuts who are are always the loudest.

Consider the tame-by-comparison debate over abortion rights. If you're pro-choice, imagine trying to convince someone who is pro-life to see your side of the argument. Think it would work? Probably not, because it's most likely a firm religious belief to that person that abortion is wrong. If you're pro-life, imagine someone trying to convince you to change your opinion. Will it work? Hell no it won't! You don't want to kill babies!

I'm not trying to suggest that either camp are nuts, but the point is, it's nigh-impossible to change someone's religious beliefs. And if these suicide bombers think they'll be martyrs for killing a dozen, a hundred, or a thousand men, women, and children whom they've never met, there's not one thing anyone can do to reason with them. They're going to live in paradise with twenty virgins and an endless supply of Jelly Bellies. Their parents will be proud of them. Their children will be proud of them. Their children's children will hear stories about them in school. And did I mention the jelly beans and the paradise and the virgins?

I'm not trying to be a Bush apologist; I'm trying to be realistic. How can we reason with someone who has his head in his ass?

[nforcer]

Originally posted by tsuki:
the worst and scariest part about a bush second term is the patriot act.he will make it permanent.

Kerry supports the Patriot Act, too. So he's not any better.

[besson3c]

Originally posted by dzhim:
I'm not trying to suggest that either camp are nuts, but the point is, it's nigh-impossible to change someone's religious beliefs. And if these suicide bombers think they'll be martyrs for killing a dozen, a hundred, or a thousand men, women, and children whom they've never met, there's not one thing anyone can do to reason with them. They're going to live in paradise with twenty virgins and an endless supply of Jelly Bellies. Their parents will be proud of them. Their children will be proud of them. Their children's children will hear stories about them in school. And did I mention the jelly beans and the paradise and the virgins?

Are you suggesting that all terrorism is performed by nutballs who do this purely for self gratification? Obviously there have been plenty of instances of this in history - many coming from within our own country, but a lot of the terrorism we have been immersed in as of late seems to be very politically-based - be it motivated by Bin Laden, Israel/Palestine, etc.

[besson3c]

Originally posted by nforcer:
Kerry supports the Patriot Act, too. So he's not any better.

But it is yet to be seen whether a Kerry administration would be as secretive and tight-lipped as this current administration.

[zachs]

Originally posted by nforcer:
Kerry supports the Patriot Act, too. So he's not any better.

Two things:

(a) Kerry generally supports it, but doesn't like the way it's being implemented and used.
(b) He wants changes to it. For example, currently investigators can do what's called a "sneak and peek" search of a suspect's home, and the suspect doesn't need to be notified. Kerry wants to change that so that the suspect would have to be notified within seven days.

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by besson3c:
Iraq war: created based on crappy intelligence, full of political interest and corruption (e.g. ties to oil), just a complete mess. The best way to get yourself out of a hole is to stop digging. While this doesn't necessarily mean we should pull out immeidately, a vote for Bush is a means to continue digging, although Bush will try to make you believe that he is the only human being on this planet capable of getting us out of this hole.

Actually, it was the lack of intelegence. There hasn't been any evidence that he was given the wrong information. It's that he wasn't given information.

Gay marriage: to me, this is a non-argument. Bush's position is clearly reinforced, again, by his religious beliefs. Maybe some day we'll evolve from the stone age. The only arguments I've heard against supporting gay marriage seem to be a general dissent towards change, and religious stuff.

If he blocks and voids gay marriage, is his marriage with that manly looking Laura void? Being in bed with her is about as gay as it gets. Sorry, but look at her. I can see why they have been very insistant on only headshots. It's rare you see pics of her entire. And when she is, she's wearing rather loose clothing, moving fast, or some other diversion.

She's got quite a manly build.

Gross.

Economy: crap

Here's my beef with the economy. It's all quick fix. Average age of retirement is rising (even more now, since the baby boomers have been very into investing their retirement money thanks to modern retirement plans... which many have tanked). And people entering the workforce is climbing (and the worst is yet to come). The baby boomers peak of children is still a few years off from entering the workforce. And that will be record numbers of people looking for work.

But we have a 'jobless recovery', and no indication of new jobs.

That can only mean 1 thing: Unemployment. Unless something is done soon.

That seriously bothers me, because nothing good can come out of that. Even if the US really pushed it's limits of capitalism, and created forced retirement, you would have tons of older people with not enough to live on... lots of senior poverty.

There's not going to be a quick fix for this problem. That's 100% clear. My concern is that this isn't an election issue, when it really should be. Since THIS is the time to be looking at the problem. The closest we've gotten is social security, which is only a component in this problem.

THIS needs a pre-emptive attack. It needs to be fixed before it happens.

But both Democrats and Republicans don't want to even discuss it. Forget about present plans to remedy the problem.

Originally posted by nforcer:
Kerry supports the Patriot Act, too. So he's not any better.

True. Many people don't realize that.

--------------
Add to the Bush list that he's requiring the Selective Service System to be ready for use by June 15, 2005. (Status report sometime in March). Obviously has something in the works to need more soldiers.

SSS is once again (just like before the vietnam draft) denying the claims:
http://www.sss.gov/

But congress is already on the ball, in que to be done by the said deadlines:
http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:S.89:
http://www.congress.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:H.R.163:

[Saad]

If Kerry wins the election, I'm leaving the country. Bush is the only person that can successfully be our President today.

Saudi Arabia is pretty conservative, as is Uganda. Why do you think Jphn Kerry would be an unsuccessful president?

[slimshady023]

I vote for Oprah!

Okay, nevermind. I think between tweedle-dee and tweedle-dum, I have to hedge my bets on Kerry. I would prefer Nader, but even Scooby Doo is easier to understand than Dick and Bush.

I will miss George's penchant for creating new words in interviews. Partisanshipfulness... heh heh, what a doof. It is encouraging to know that anyone can become President. Or is that encouraging?

[superfula]

Originally posted by besson3c:
Your arguments for Bush all seem to come back to what you think is bad about Kerry. Do you have any positive things to say about Bush, or is he just the lesser of two evils?

I honestly can't think of anything truely positive Bush has done for the US.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone post reasons why they will vote for Kerry. All I see is why they won't vote for Bush. Funny how it works both ways, huh. Just goes to show that most macnn users don't know what they heck they are talking about when it comes to politics....course most Americans probably don't know what they're talking about either.

[besson3c]

Originally posted by superfula:
I don't think I've ever seen anyone post reasons why they will vote for Kerry. All I see is why they won't vote for Bush. Funny how it works both ways, huh. Just goes to show that most macnn users don't know what they heck they are talking about when it comes to politics....course most Americans probably don't know what they're talking about either.

There are certainly a lot of people who are planning to vote for Kerry just because he is not Bush. However, in defense of this, we don't know a whole heck of a lot about Kerry yet. We've just been subjected to back and forth Democrat/Republican mud-slinging - unless I'm just living under a rock.

[superfula]

Originally posted by besson3c:
There are certainly a lot of people who are planning to vote for Kerry just because he is not Bush. However, in defense of this, we don't know a whole heck of a lot about Kerry yet. We've just been subjected to back and forth Democrat/Republican mud-slinging - unless I'm just living under a rock.

No you're absolutely right. The Kerry campaign has done a terrible job of "marketing" him. The only reason Kerry isn't more than an oil spill in this campaign, is because some want ANYTHING other than Bush. I have a feeling even I could garner as much support as Kerry has.